Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

[Hairysun]

I'd really appreciate some critiques on my play: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5muBdEO_Vg
I played 3 other recorded sets at the tournament but I think this ones probably the best overall. I know I lack a lot of fluidity and precision and I'd love to hear other people's thoughts on how I play and how I can improve.

The main thing that I noticed was your N-air approach and tendency to atk via air in general. N-air is good as a combo finisher and defensive air atk, but using it to approach as often as you do puts you in a lot of bad positions. You can't space Nair unless you land behind your opponent, which is tough to do. I'd recommend using Uair as an alternative; it's not only safer and faster, but it also puts your enemy in range for follow-up atk's, a good one being Nair. You should also focus on using wavedash as a primary approaching tool. WD jab, WD grab, and WD f-tilt are all great ways to approach without putting yourself in too much danger.

 

[RashAttack]

Hey all,

I've been having trouble playing people on Pokemon Stadium; I really don't know what I should be doing during the transformations.

When its Rock/Fire, I usually wait on one side until the transformation wears off.

But if its the water or grass one, I end up having a lot of trouble. What should I be doing during those specific transformations? Spacies/Shiek/Marth all have a field day with me during those two transformations, and I end up not knowing what to do.

 

[Superw0rri0]

It sounds like you're just not used to those transformations. Just practice your movement on pokemon stadium especially when it comes to the different transformations and simply get used to them. You'll know what to do when you feel comfortable on every transition.

 

[RashAttack]

Due to the abnormal stage layout during those transformations, are there any common Doc 'danger areas' that I should try to avoid?

 

[Superw0rri0]

The only thing you have to worry about is that none of doc's moves go through the tree or the walls so be wary of that. Also try to stay away from the pit unless you're feeling ballsy.

 

[PTJon]

I made it into bracket of Texas' most recent major tournament last Saturday (DIME 9) and recorded both of my tounament sets. The first one is against the current 6th ranked player in Texas and the second is versus a guy I'd say is in the top ten best players in DFW. Besides some crucial mistakes I'm pretty happy with my performance against both of them, but I'd love to get any input possible to improve. Thanks!

Winners R1 vs Jake13: http://youtu.be/LZCtE-L-kAg

Losers R1 vs Penguin: http://youtu.be/bjahw2EZ5pM

 

[mYzeALot]

What would a good secondary for Doc be for some of the floaty matchups? I already have a relatively good falcon, puff, and falco, but I do hate having Doc vs other floaty mid tier characters. Is Falcon or Puff my best bet for these?

 

[Superw0rri0]

What would a good secondary for Doc be for some of the floaty matchups? I already have a relatively good falcon, puff, and falco, but I do hate having Doc vs other floaty mid tier characters. Is Falcon or Puff my best bet for these?

Any of the top tiers really. For the characters you feel comfortable with I'd say falco is the best one. You should also consider Marth. I feel docs best secondaries are arguably Sheik and Marth.

 

[Monkley6]

I'm sure these questions come up all the time, but I can't seem to find anything solid on it.
Dthrow to Fair, namely on Marth. I can't seem to get training mode to consider it a combo, not that I'm anywhere near frame perfect. So is it just me, or does this not actually work on Marth?

 

[mYzeALot]

I share the same question, because I have heard time and time again that doc can throw to a dunk any character in the game except for Samus. I can sometimes get it on floaty characters, but I don't know if who I'm playing just isn't trying to get out quick enough.

 

[Superw0rri0]

It's possible on Marth I believe but it's harder than usual....

 

[Max?]

You just need to react as soon as possible after the throw animation ends. It's completely dependent on weight. The animation is faster for lighter characters, and longer for heavier characters. Thus you have more time to react on someone like Bowser as opposed to Jigglypuff.

 

[tauKhan]

I'm sure these questions come up all the time, but I can't seem to find anything solid on it.
Dthrow to Fair, namely on Marth. I can't seem to get training mode to consider it a combo, not that I'm anywhere near frame perfect. So is it just me, or does this not actually work on Marth?

This depends on the marth's percents ofc. The earliest percents I could get dthrow fair to combo on marth in pal was 110% range.

You just need to react as soon as possible after the throw animation ends. It's completely dependent on weight. The animation is faster for lighter characters, and longer for heavier characters. Thus you have more time to react on someone like Bowser as opposed to Jigglypuff.

I found this a bit hard to understand so I will elaborate. The dthrow is indeed weight dependent so the animation is the longer the heavier the opponent. Thus you need to learn to follow up your dthrow asap depending on the characters weight. For example dthrow sends puff into air on frame 10 and you can act out of it on frame 24, but marth is launched on frame 16 and you can act on frame 35. Launch speed and therefore hitstun are independent of weight on throws, and hitstun starts when the char is launched, so lighter characters are easier to combo. As you can calculate, you have 5 more frames to work with on puff than marth after dthrow.

Edit: Marth's counter becomes invincible frame 1, so you must have a good timing to not give the marth opportunity to counter. I found it pretty difficult to time myself at 110% - 120%, but then I'm not a doc main and haven't practiced it. So as said it probably does work on marth. I assume it's very hard or even impossible to combo anything that weighs 100 or more. Not sure though. You can probably at least trade with some heavier chars.

 

[Monkley6]

Thanks for the info. I knew that lighter characters had faster throw animations, but didn't realize that you actually netted more of an advantage because of it. I haven't really tried it in a real environment yet, but I'll keep all that in mind.

 

[Blue Mage]

Hey guys, I have a simple question (that I'm sure has been asked in this huge thread before), but how does Doc fare in doubles?

I'm entering my very first doubles tourney at a local game store with a friend of mine (a Samus main) next month, and I was thinking about entering with either Doc or Mario.

What would be some good doubles strats for Doc? Thanks to anyone who can help.

 

[Logz]

Hey guys, I have a simple question (that I'm sure has been asked in this huge thread before), but how does Doc fare in doubles?

I'm entering my very first doubles tourney at a local game store with a friend of mine (a Samus main) next month, and I was thinking about entering with either Doc or Mario.

What would be some good doubles strats for Doc? Thanks to anyone who can help.

I don't think doc is very viable in teams. If you wanna use a good strategy, just spam WD -> Dsmash or just Dsmash in general. Grabs would be nice as well since that's pretty much what doc is all about.

 

[Desh]

Wow, this place has died 100 times over.
Doc's not bad in teams. He can play an aggressor as well as support.
Lol and don't spam WD into moves. You should be playing a positioning game with your teammate vs your opponents, and doc has a lot of tools for doing so - Don't commit to moves unless they're necessary, spamming dsmash is the opposite of a strategy .
Samus is a good team mate too. Her strength in being support lets doc shine as the stock taker.

Where's dogy and OTG and all the other peeps? They don't frequent here anymore?

 

[Logz]

Wow, this place has died 100 times over.
Doc's not bad in teams. He can play an aggressor as well as support.
Lol and don't spam WD into moves. You should be playing a positioning game with your teammate vs your opponents, and doc has a lot of tools for doing so - Don't commit to moves unless they're necessary, spamming dsmash is the opposite of a strategy .
Samus is a good team mate too. Her strength in being support lets doc shine as the stock taker.

Where's dogy and OTG and all the other peeps? They don't frequent here anymore?

Nah I wasn't suggesting him to spam dsmash. I just said WD into Dsmash is a good option. But honestly I disagree with doc being good at teams due to his lack of range, but I really don't wanna argue about it since you'll probably disagree with me anyways.

Also, the only veteran I've seen around here lately is SmashMac. Idk what happened to Dogy and OTG. It sucks, but this forum is slowly dying >_>...

 

[Max?]

Wow, this place has died 100 times over.
Doc's not bad in teams. He can play an aggressor as well as support.
Lol and don't spam WD into moves. You should be playing a positioning game with your teammate vs your opponents, and doc has a lot of tools for doing so - Don't commit to moves unless they're necessary, spamming dsmash is the opposite of a strategy .
Samus is a good team mate too. Her strength in being support lets doc shine as the stock taker.

Where's dogy and OTG and all the other peeps? They don't frequent here anymore?

I'm still here, but no one really asks anything interesting anymore and tbh I pretty much practice and play top tiers now.

 

[Superw0rri0]

I'm still here, but no one really asks anything interesting anymore and tbh I pretty much practice and play top tiers now.

So whyd you stop playing doc?

 

[Max?]

I've always played the Top Tiers because they are fun as hell. I live in Manhattan and there are tons of new players in my area, so I've been playing everyone against them to teach them stuff, and as a result I've gotten pretty solid with spacies/sheik/etc etc. They're just so fun. I don't really go to tournies that often anymore, but if I do, I'll probably play Doc.

I also recommend to any new player to NOT use Doctor Mario, and frankly, I'd recommend that to any of you as well lol.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Doc's still fun, OTG. Even to just **** around with. I still use him to warm up before going to Sheik, my main.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Superw0rri0]

I also recommend to any new player to NOT use Doctor Mario

Lol .... I already made that mistake.... I learned the game with doc and it really sucked now that I think about it.... But been playing for a year and half now and I've learned other characters so I'm good.... Lol

Stayin with doc til the end!!! With a bit if pichu on the side

 

[Desh]

Nah I wasn't suggesting him to spam dsmash. I just said WD into Dsmash is a good option. But honestly I disagree with doc being good at teams due to his lack of range, but I really don't wanna argue about it since you'll probably disagree with me anyways.

Also, the only veteran I've seen around here lately is SmashMac. Idk what happened to Dogy and OTG. It sucks, but this forum is slowly dying >_>...

Aha there's no need to argue. Discussion is an important part of/the entire point of the boards. The issue with lower tiers is people are aware of who is good with them, and take those players word as law. EG. - "this character sucks against this character because of _____". That's toxic to the development of a characters meta game. What should be said Is "this character can't do ____ against this character, BUT has other, less thought over options."

That's also why the boards are dying. People are ignorant to the idea that something new is still waiting to be discovered(I'm not saying some game breaking technique or ideas, but ya). See if we were to discuss this, not only would it prompt other people to give their input, as well as help build the boards again - it would make us all think. For instance I think docs lack of range is a misconception as i frequently poke away marths fairs with ftilt. He also has a projectile that can lock most of the cast down when used well- it has a LOT of mix up options that stem from it. FH PILL>Dj pill >WL, FH PILL > WL. It opens up so many movement options and racks up a sizeable amount of % while keeping a zone.

Also hi max, and smooth! Long time :D

TLDR; argue with me, maybe we'll both learn something new. No question is a bad question, and simple answers lead to simple disagreements, which lead to learning and complex solutions.

 

[Superw0rri0]

To build on the pill mix ups... I found if you pill really early in your jump you can get a small nair out before you land.

Also... I found you can ledge cancel the fall animation after an up b with platforms making it more safe than samus's up b if you're in the right position. You can do it on battlefield's lower platforms without jumping.

 

[Logz]

Yeah I'm open to discussing anything Doc related.

Gotta try that pill -> nair thing. Sounds kinda cool.

 

[Superw0rri0]

It has a really tight timing and it only works if you throw out the pill as early as you can. Give it a shot... I haven't used it at all yet but I'm sure one day there will be a situation where it would be useful.

 

[Logz]

It has a really tight timing and it only works if you throw out the pill as early as you can. Give it a shot... I haven't used it at all yet but I'm sure one day there will be a situation where it would be useful.

So I messed around with it for a while. Doesn't seem too difficult to perform. I would assume you could also incorporate fairs, bairs, and even dairs depending on what situation you are in.

For example, jump up and do a pill early, then fair on second jump while fast falling. Maybe the first pill could stun then you could get the kobe in? Needa test this out more

 

[Desh]

It's not really practical. Nair is weakest at it's start up, and the pill won't likely keep anyone still. You need to set up and zone with pills - they don't have an amazing amount of stun unfortunately so you need to be able to hit them with two consecutively or catch them in their shield/jumping in to use as a confirm. Also fair probably won't have enough time to hit, bair would be reverse and dair, eh. It's too risky to dive right in behind a pill in most situations. You wanna use them to keep people away/in a certain spot, and most times a grab is ideally your follow up. Keep in mind if your opponent is competent then they'll be in constant motion so you're trying to limit their movement and create openings while staying safe. One of my favourite things to do is to FH pill to perfect(if possible) retreating wave land, to FH pill to approaching WL, rinse repeat. Not particularly useful on stages that aren't fd ...but i enjoy the back and fourth movement aha. Also FH pill>waveland grab. If Point being as sick nasty as it would be, it's not really viable. Doc doesn't have tools to take such a direct approach, you're pretty much fishing until you get a bite/get in real close...then you pummel them. If you wanna run in behind a projectile sheik/falco.

Has anyone really fiddled with Nair off stage? I've been finding it catches people off guard. It's animation is considerably long but if you use it early and force a jump you can clip them with an up air after which seals the deal. Cool mix up option but you need to be sure they'll jump. We can also go pretty freakin deep off stage, but it's such a rare sight.

 

[Superw0rri0]

The only practical use I can think of for FH pill > nair is if your pill misses and they think you're open but really you have one more chance to throw out a move.

Also... I played around with other moves after it a while back and I couldn't manage to get any other move out fast enough. Nair is the only move that's fast enough.


And yes ive been playing with nair off stage. It's pretty good tbh but you have to be careful with it or you're not making back on stage. I've also been playing with dair and uair... Up air is pretty good if they're above you but you have to space it right or else you're hitting them back on stage. Dair is only good on certain situations. It's priority and massive hit box are really the only things that trumps the other aerials so it's only good if you can follow up with another arial.

 

[Logz]

Off stage Nairs are pretty cool. I tend to screw them up a lot though, but it has been useful to me in the past against characters like Spacies, Falcon, and Marth.

 

[Superw0rri0]

Nair is pretty good against spacie's illusion... Look at the way M2K uses shiek's nair.

Against Marth it's better to use bairs.... His fair out ranges all of your moves and nair puts you in a perfect position to get daired. One thing I love to do against marths is hold edge and when they get close bair them and they're dead. But if they're recovering high you do it on stage.

 

[Desh]

It's just really risky even if that Nair connects. Dair is on of my favourite moves, it's soooooo good vs falcon. Ftilt can beat marths fair, and up b if he doesn't sweet spot, though you obviously don't wanna let them get that close it's still good to have tucked away in case you're for some reason on the othe side of the stage and can't make it there.

 

[Renth]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoFAHKTWwuw&feature=youtu.be

 

[Logz]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoFAHKTWwuw&feature=youtu.be

Ughh I still can't do this... I'm not sure if it's just because I have slow fingers or if I'm doing it wrong... Pretty sure it's the former case.

 

[onionchowder]

I've been experimenting more with Dtilt near the ledge, and it actually seems like a really useful gimp tool. It hits them backwards (like Samus/Peach Dsmash), so they are forced to up-B (or otherwise turn around) if they want to grab the ledge. Getup-Dtilt and ledgehop-Dair-Dtilt both seem to work if the opponent doesn't expect it. Definitely a gimmick though

(RE: Pokemon Stadium Transformations)
Doc's Bair and Ftilt will hit through the transformations, though not as well as other characters. Try crouching at the base of the tree and then full-hop Bair after an opponent on the other side whiffs an attack! Doc's Pills are also pretty good on transformations, try using the slopes to bounce the pill in interesting directions. Shooting the pill just over the tree (from left to right) will get the pill to bounce backwards at the base of the tree, and is a really good way to harass an opponent camping the bottom right side of the tree. Also, the slopes make horizontal wavedashes really easy, which can get you a lot of surprise approaches.

(RE: Full-hop pill/Nair stuff)
full-hop Pill, Nair, or Dair all leave you with a window to act right before you land. As SuperWorri0 said, you can Nair right before landing, but that's not too useful. Y'all probably know about the double-jump, lots of Docs will FH-pill-DJ-pill. Uair and waveland are also really good options that will often surprise your opponent. I like to FH-Dair-Uair and FH-Pill-Waveland (either forwards or backwards, as Desh mentioned. Be tricky!) Full-hop pills can be pretty useful on platform stages too, as they will hit opponents sitting on the platform (though if you land on a platform yourself, you won't be able to do any of these waveland shenanigans)

(RE: Nair off-stage)
Nair is really good for covering an area when you're not totally sure on the timing, but are confident your opponent will have to run into it. I find it most useful to edgeguard Fox/Falco's side-B. Or if you read a double-jump but aren't sure on the timing, put out a Nair above their head and hope they jump into it. On that note full-hop Nair above a Fox/Falco in shine or an opponent in shield is also really useful, as they usually will jump into it.

(RE: Smashboards Dying)
yeah... it's sad. I frequented this forum 3 years ago and there was always a good amount of activity. I should visit here more often, but frankly I'm busy doing other crap and also I'm not really sure I would get that much from here, honestly =X. The Great Facebook (and Reddit) Migration really killed things. A big part of it is that old-school style forums aren't really a great way to organize this sort of conversation. All the technical information would be better in a wiki, and the casual/multi-threaded conversation works much better on Reddit.
Also, like OTG, I've been playing a lot more Fox lately. 20XX is real. Doc isn't very good tbh, I think he'll be below Samus when the dust settles. With that said, keep Doc alive! He's loads of fun to play, and honestly I think he transitions well into most other characters.

(RE: up-B cancel)
I can only up-B cancel about 15% of the time, nowhere near consistent enough to go for in a match. Personally, I don't think it's that useful. I'm a big fan of up-B OoS and landing on the top platform of Yoshi's or FoD though.

 

[Superw0rri0]

I've been experimenting more with Dtilt near the ledge, and it actually seems like a really useful gimp tool. It hits them backwards (like Samus/Peach Dsmash), so they are forced to up-B (or otherwise turn around) if they want to grab the ledge. Getup-Dtilt and ledgehop-Dair-Dtilt both seem to work if the opponent doesn't expect it. Definitely a gimmick though

Here's the conclusion that I've come to with DTilt

When you're cornered by the edge there's four ways to get them off stage:
1. Attack them, regain stage control, and get them off stage
2. some how get around them, regain stage control, and knock them off stage
3. grab back throw
4. dtilt

the first two are retaking control of the game and the last two are turning a bad situation around into your favor
the last two are also the fastest

So here's the problem that I have with dtilt, it's only useful at higher percents and unlike back throw it doesn't kill. Dtilt only sets up for a gimp but it will never kill. So why use dtilt when you have back throw?

there's one main reason to use dtilt over back throw: dtilt comes out faster than grab.
basically, if you have enough time to grab, then grab. If not, then dtilt.
But try to get a grab because it's a better setup, has a chance to kill, and i believe it does more damage.

 

[onionchowder]

Though I agree Bthrow is usually much better than Dtilt, I think it's a mistake to be so reductionist. Very rarely does one option strictly dominate another. At a first glance, Fox/Falco's Nair seems to be strictly better than Fair, but recently we've been seeing Fair used more because the hitbox hits higher, because it will combo at low %s, because the knockback sets up certain combos, etc. The situations where Dtilt will connect are different; the speed (as you said), the range, where it puts your hurtbox, etc. Moreover, the outcome is different than Bthrow, and that variation itself might be valuable enough for you to use it.

In particular, Dtilt sends the opponent much lower/weaker than Bthrow, so their recovery route will have to be different. Perhaps the unexpectedness will be enough to mess up their sweetspot or otherwise open up a punish opportunity. Even at very low %, Dtilt will put fast-fallers in a very compromising position.

All-in-all the move is pretty bad though.

 

[Amiibo Doctor]

How does Doc space against ranged characters like Marth and Yoshi? The poor guy has zilch for range and everyone else seems to be a far hitter.

 

[mYzeALot]

dunno about yoshi (other than dthrow is good against yoshi), but marth is manageable. The matchup is in Marth's favor, but Doc has his good wavedash along with f-tilt to poke at marth. Also having dthrow to fair for kill is very helpful with Doc, as well as pills to slow down Marth's onslaught of his own pokes.