Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

[SmashMac]

I'm going to EVO with Shiz guys. :D.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

#free$mac
#LeeCounty
#freeflorida
#EVO14
#doc

 

[Doctor Pink]

So, I have been playing a little bit of Marth lately. I only play him to practice spacing, as that character is literally the embodiment of Melee, minus the execution. Now, this has actually helped with my doc game considerably, as it has made me focus more on spacing in between my opponent and myself. I can see why Shroomed plays Marth sometimes. I have also been playing Luigi more lately, as the character is entirely about crisp movement, and this has also helped me more with the general mentality behind doc. Call me crazy, but practicing those 2 characters has helped my doc game immensly. Doc may not have nearly the wavedash that Luigi has, but his is still important.

 

[poega]

huh, makes sense actually. I suppose if you really try to practise those areas with doc you'll achieve roughly the same results but playing those characters guarantees it.

 

[Doctor Pink]

I am a bit odd when it comes to learning fighting games. I got good at playing Magneto in UMVC3 by playing FlashFlashRevolution, lol. My methods may not work for everyone, but they work for me. My love for Melee continues to grow, because I continue to learn something new everytime I enter training mode.

 

[onionchowder]

Heading out to EVO tonight! I'll see some of you guys there.

 

[Superw0rri0]

So, I have been playing a little bit of Marth lately. I only play him to practice spacing, as that character is literally the embodiment of Melee, minus the execution. Now, this has actually helped with my doc game considerably, as it has made me focus more on spacing in between my opponent and myself. I can see why Shroomed plays Marth sometimes. I have also been playing Luigi more lately, as the character is entirely about crisp movement, and this has also helped me more with the general mentality behind doc. Call me crazy, but practicing those 2 characters has helped my doc game immensly. Doc may not have nearly the wavedash that Luigi has, but his is still important.

I think I'll try this out... maybe playing marth will even teach me how to space against him.

 

[Naota21t]

Holy **** why is everyone outside of Norcal terrible against Doc?

Leffen getting whooped by Dajuan was the funniest **** I've ever seen. I've never seen a fox more lost as to what to do during a match up. That dsmash he didn't expect and died to at mid 60's will bring me laughter for many years.

What a scrub, doesn't know how to down air.

I'm bored so I'mma make a post later with time tags for one of Leffen's matches against Dajuan just to show people exactly what you SHOULDN'T do.

 

[Superw0rri0]

Holy **** why is everyone outside of Norcal terrible against Doc?

Leffen getting whooped by Dajuan was the funniest **** I've ever seen. I've never seen a fox more lost as to what to do during a match up. That dsmash he didn't expect and died to at mid 60's will bring me laughter for many years.

What a scrub, doesn't know how to down air.

I'm bored so I'mma make a post later with time tags for one of Leffen's matches against Dajuan just to show people exactly what you SHOULDN'T do.

Because no outside of Norcal has experience against a good doc. A good doc just rips a part the other player if they don't know the match up. That's one of the reasons why I play doc. He's so different from the top tiers that people have trouble dealing with him.

 

[Naota21t]

Honestly if you know how to crouch cancel correctly, you'll beat practically all foxes out there that don't have match up knowledge.

Just hold it downnnnnn

 

[Superw0rri0]

Honestly if you know how to crouch cancel correctly, you'll beat practically all foxes out there that don't have match up knowledge.

Just hold it downnnnnn

Luckily I'm good at fox but my biggest problem with not is actually not doc himself but just me as a player... I make too many mistakes and 'm sometimes too predictable.

 

[Dunc]

Do random CCed downtilts if fox has over 80%. it sends them low and behind you. if you get them off the stage its an easy edgeguard. The best part is that they never see it coming because it is probably Doc's most underused move and it lasts longer than it looks so they might jump into it.

 

[VGmasta]

Because no outside of Norcal has experience against a good doc. A good doc just rips a part the other player if they don't know the match up. That's one of the reasons why I play doc. He's so different from the top tiers that people have trouble dealing with him.

This is a large part of why Doc won't win any nationals.
Doc is only a gimmick character:
His strong ground game can appear to be somewhat overpowering to the foreign eye. But once people familiarize themselves with Doc's lack of attack range and mediocre air game, they'll make Doc actually work for any of his rewards by simply outspacing/baiting Doc's approaches just as Armada has done vs Shroomed.

I've never seen Shroomed nod his head in disapproval quite so much. I wonder if he was surprised by Peach's attack range and/or power or if Shroomed was experiencing technical errors.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I feel Doc is much less gimmicky than Pikachu. But then that's kind of the problem too.

 

[ye25]

How do i beat falco guys :D

 

[Max?]

Read thru this thread. If you go back a page or two, you'll probably find something. This matchup has been requested and discussed more than any other one on this thread, and I've done a write up on it close to 10 times.

 

[Dunc]

How do i beat falco guys :D

just learn chain grabs as well as reading the up b to cape the recovery.

 

[Doctor Pink]

Call me crazy, but UpB Cancel is a surprisingly strong edgeguard. If you mess up, it could cause you to die like an idiot, but it is one of my most used edgeguarding tools, next to cape and pills. I don't even practice UpB Cancel anymore, because as long as I stay calm, I never goof it, and I see no reason not to use it, unless you aren't 100% at it. I am not saying it is the best move in the game, but it feels like Shine sometimes (yes, I am learning how to master that damn bird), and the hitbox and invincibility of UpB Cancel is sillier than Shine sometimes. Not saying everyone should use it constantly, but that I feel it is a necessary tool to at least have in your arsenal, as Doc needs all the tricks he can get. It is not his number one priority (that would be spacing and understanding when to strike), but it is a really powerful tool for a character so dependent on raw fundamentals and reading the opponent.

 

[Superw0rri0]

The problem that I have with upB cancel other than it's difficult execution (at least for me I'm still trying to successfully execute it consistently), is that you have to be close in to actually use it. It's practically useless against marth outside of shield pressure and combos. I'm not so sure about other characters because I play mostly against marths so someone who has a lot of experience against fox's and falco's can pitch in.

 

[Doctor Pink]

I use it for too many things. You can use it to stop your momentum after a dash, you can use it to pressure shields, and you can use it to snuff shield-grab attempts. It blows up Fox OOS, and Falco was never much of a problem for me, but I can't say that until I play Dr.PeePee, heh.

 

[Superw0rri0]

I wouldn't use it for stopping a dash's momentum. I'm not saying you're wrong; we all play differently. If you really need to stop your momentum just wave dash. It's faster, gives you control of where you're going whether it be forward, back, or standing still, and it has less delay than the upB cancel.I think you can also crouch to stop your dash's momentum. Not sure never done it myself.

 

[Doctor Pink]

Yeah, it is only good for stopping momentum when done maybe once per set. It is easier to do it out of a dash than standing still. WD in place is definitely better for the purpose of stopping momentum, but the audio cue from the UpB cancel can make some players flinch, but I agree that isn't one of the better uses. I live in the Houston area, and it catches people every now and then, which is really the only reason to do it. Keep in mind, my playstyle is based around limiting movement with Pills.

 

[ZaXXoR]

it seems to setup well against fox, even after first learning it i got a nice setup for a death combo from one. Im finding the best way to practice it is on FD with 4 CPs in training and just trying to do it out of shield because it makes the timing more precise it seems

 

[virtuososteve]

Hey guys Sheik main playing doc and he's loads of fun. I love playing him. I'm having trouble with implementing his u-air, execution as well. The auto cancel one. I use the "y" button to jump so I jump them immediately up c'stick but I just have the hardest time doing it in the middle of a match. I also am too slow and can't get the auto cancel. Any tips?

 

[ElloEddy]

I am a bit odd when it comes to learning fighting games. I got good at playing Magneto in UMVC3 by playing FlashFlashRevolution, lol. My methods may not work for everyone, but they work for me. My love for Melee continues to grow, because I continue to learn something new everytime I enter training mode.

its a smart method ...playing better characters get you better with lower tiers to an extent , cause you learn more easier.....

 

[mYzeALot]

I too am having trouble understanding auto-canceling and doing it. Are there any tutorials on how to auto-cancel, because I only ever L-cancel with any character I use, including doc.

 

[St. Viers]

Autocancelling is a silly term imo. It's doing your aerial soon enough that the move's recovery is over when you land, giving you the normal 4 frames of landing lag rather than the aerial's. For the up-air, just work on faster inputs. For the d-air, practice how late in the jump you can input it without ending the move on the ground.

Unless I'm completely wrong, in which case ignore me

 

[mYzeALot]

So if I do it and attempt to L-cancel in a window where an auto-cancel would take place, which would actually happen?

 

[ye25]

Nothing would happen. Just four frames of landing lag.

 

[Frisbie]

Certain aerial moves in this game have a frame or frames where if you land on said frames, the move's landing animation is canceled and you will only have landing lag as if you just jumped and landed. This does NOT refer to when you land after the move is over; this can be observed with Ness's down air, as you can see the reduced landing lag occur BEFORE the hitbox even comes out. With Doc's upair, if you do a short hop and then do an up air as soon as you leave the ground and fast fall it, it will be auto canceled.

For those of you who are having trouble doing it with Doc's upair, practicing short-hop fast-fall upairs, doing them as fast as you possibly can. If you are having trouble doing it in tournament only, you are either nervous or not entirely used to fast-falling after hitting an opponent, as hitboxes stay out longer when they come in to contact with something, causing you to fast-fall while you are still in hitlag. Practice on both cpu's and by yourself so you know both timings.

 

[ye25]

I think the fastest way to do it is to sh then while youre starting your jump animation, before you leave the ground, smash up on the control stick and hit A do start the uair. If you do it fast enough, you shouldnt double jump; its kinda tricky to do but wicked fast.

You will know if you are doing it fast enough if, without fast falling, you can get the start animation of a SECOND uair after your first one completes in one sh. Kinda like luigi sh double uair but without the hitbox of the second one.

 

[St. Viers]

Certain aerial moves in this game have a frame or frames where if you land on said frames, the move's landing animation is canceled and you will only have landing lag as if you just jumped and landed. This does NOT refer to when you land after the move is over; this can be observed with Ness's down air, as you can see the reduced landing lag occur BEFORE the hitbox even comes out. With Doc's upair, if you do a short hop and then do an up air as soon as you leave the ground and fast fall it, it will be auto canceled.

The autocancel on aerials hitting the ground before the hitbox comes out is a different thing than what happens with doc's down-air (which is why I said calling it autocancelling is silly). Doc's f-air autocancels before going off, like ness's. Doc's down-air isn't cancelling on a certain frame, the trick is just making sure you don't press 'a' too slowly/late and land while the move is still happening. You need to work on timing it so that it doesn't come out too early (still in the air while it ends) or too late (meaning the hitbox is still out when you land, making you need to l-cancel it). The up-air I'm not super sure about, but I know that the shff "autocancel" is just the move ending before you land. However, because it can cancel out as it's going through platforms (before the hitbox comes out), I think it is possible to autocancel like Ness's d-air somehow. as well

 

[DRM4R10]

Guys, I have a Q. Is Fox-trotting beneficial for Dr. Mario? Thanks.

 

[Max?]

Depends. Movement is good

 

[Doctor Pink]

So, as many of you likely know, the height of Doc's pill bounce is based on the relative height from which the pill fell to reach the ground. What you may not know, is that the "height variable" for the pills is determined as soon as you input the pill, rather than when the pill object is created by the command. What this means, is that a full-jump fast fall pill will bounce at the same height as a normal full-jump pill. This is probably not useful info, but it can be used for some fancy set-ups.

 

[xDD-Master]

Hey guys, I am pretty new to melee, and I think I found my character to go (I thought it would be fox, but I have more fun with Dr. Mario I think).

Coming from brawl, where I recently started maining Mario,what are the basic differences between Mario and Doc? Afaik Nair gets stronger the longer it stays out, right? And then the pills ofc.
What else is pretty different?

What would you guys say, should be the first things to learn? (I am already able to move quite consistent with WDs, WLs, SHFFLs etc., I am speaking of CGs etc.)

And what are the MUs I should fear the most? Does Doc have any -2 MUs in the current metagame? Or any MUs where it is said to be likely unwinnable?


Thx in advance, I know these are noobish questions, but as I am new to competitive melee and the SWF boards, I don't really now where to find my infos, you can ofc. also link me to useful threads, which I should check and find my answers there too.

Greetings from Germany

 

[DRM4R10]

Hey guys, I am pretty new to melee, and I think I found my character to go (I thought it would be fox, but I have more fun with Dr. Mario I think).

Coming from brawl, where I recently started maining Mario,what are the basic differences between Mario and Doc? Afaik Nair gets stronger the longer it stays out, right? And then the pills ofc.
What else is pretty different?

What would you guys say, should be the first things to learn? (I am already able to move quite consistent with WDs, WLs, SHFFLs etc., I am speaking of CGs etc.)

And what are the MUs I should fear the most? Does Doc have any -2 MUs in the current metagame? Or any MUs where it is said to be likely unwinnable?


Thx in advance, I know these are noobish questions, but as I am new to competitive melee and the SWF boards, I don't really now where to find my infos, you can ofc. also link me to useful threads, which I should check and find my answers there too.

Greetings from Germany

Welcome:

Dr. Mario and Mario are obviously similarly due to them being clones, but a lot of people think he's almost identical which isn't true. All their attacks ,pretty much, share the same animations but have different effects and/or deal different amounts of damage.

In a nutshell: Dr. Mario has stronger attacks (notable exception isf Up-smash - Mario's is stronger) but has worse recovery than Mario.

Bigger differences: Mario's forward aerial has meteor smash hitboxes whilst Doc's doesn't. Dr. Mario's down tilt makes the opponent go behind him whilst Mario's doesn't doc's stronger. Mario forward smash has a bigger hitbox than doc's and it has more priority than a normal move (meaning that if that moves collides with another move, Mario's attack will hit). Mario's down special sends opponent sends opponents up while doc's sends them in random directions. also doc's requires more button mashing to gain height and opponents can DI out of it (that is when you move while getting hit so that you can escape the attack, short for Directional Influence) oh and doc's down special does more damage. Doc's back air has semi spike properties making it useful for edgeguarding but it is weaker than Mario's. Side special, the super sheet, does more damage than the cape but it is laggier (by a bit) and it can only used once for gaining Vertical distance. doc's up tilt is stronger than Mario's (no **** lol) and it has more knockback and where the opponent is, depends on which direction they fly: if they are in front of doctor Mario, they fly forwards but if they are above they go upwards. Mario's dash attack makes the opponent go behind them but doc's sends them in random directions. they do the same damage.

smaller differences: (basically moves that only differ in damage) AAA combo is stronger for doc. side tilt is stronger for doc. up aerial is weaker for doc. down smash is stronger than Mario's. down aerial is weaker for Mario. up special is stronger for doc but does less hits than Mario's. dr. Mario's air speed is faster. they have different taunts, 2 different victory poses, different names, models, idle animatons, character selection screens, different tier positioning and players that play them in matches...

similarities: same animations except idle animation. same throws and pummel (damage wise and knockback i think), same running animation, same jumping height,same weigh (except pal version where Mario is lighter), same voice, same person pretty much...
i'd say that doc's worst matchup is against Marth and the current matchup chart agree with me (http://www.smashboards.com/threads/the-new-match-up-chart-v2.294133/ though it was last updated in 2010). Sheik would come second imo. though doc's match against marth isn't very close to unwinnable. also according to the matchup chart, doc has the best matchup against pichu and Kirby (lol who doesn't)

Sorry but i can't really answer your question on what things can be learnt, but i hope i helped!

 

[xDD-Master]

Yes you already helped me a lot! I played brawl competitive for 5 years now, so I nkow terms like DI etc. Thx nevertheless haha, I know you only want to help and be friendly to newcomers, but I'm not THAT new

Now I am wondering, why Doc is considered better than Mario (At least according to the tier list)...
At least from reading, both of them seem to have pros and cons, which kinda outweights each other.

I guess, overall Doc has better Edge-Guarding due to bair which gives him slightly better MUs vs. Fox/Falco.
Maybe also the Fair, because I know that Upthrow to Fair is true on Spacies (Other characters maybe too?) with Doc, and it kills around 100%ish, while Mario would spike them, which doesnt convert to a kill in that case.

In the MU chart most MUs are kinda the same (Even Fox/Falco, so I am maybe guessing wrong?), really outstanding though, is Jigglypuff, which is +-0 for Doc and -2 for Mario... why is that?

Right now, I am considering both Mario and Doc. But as most people agree that Doc is better, I think I would go with him, I only want to know what exactly makes him better than Mario, so I won't regret my choice later on, you know?

 

[Doctor Pink]

He has kill moves that kill at reasonable percentages, D-Throw> Fair works as a pretty universal kill, Pills are better for cutting off movement, his cape is better for edge-guarding (but worse for recovery), and he just has a much stronger neutral game. He also isn't really any slower, with only a few things actually being slower. Oh, and UpB Cancel.

 

[xDD-Master]

What makes his cape better for edge-guarding? Just curious ^^
I also practiced Up-B cancel, I get like 50% already in P-mode. Maybe friendlies with another smasher tomorrow.


Could it be that either Marios Full Jump goes a little bit higher or his bair has less total frames?
Because FH Bair UpAir onto a platform felt a little bit easier/quicker with Mario than with Doc. But maybe it was an illusion x'D