Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

[WumpaWolfy]

If you're holding up while you tech (or pressing one of the jump buttons), you'll tech jump.

Hmm well I usually hold diagonally down towards the stage when I tech, maybe I am shifting the control stick up without realizing it instead of just letting it go to a neutral position.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

aight so seems like people are really down about new smashboards sucking but i really want to improve my doc in all aspects of the game
i want doc to be a viable secondary to spacies in both teams and singles

seeing alot of doc and mario mains recently like shroomed and Arookie of course have made me realize that they can hold their own against the rest of the cast

cud you guys start some discussion on docs keys to victory in some mu's


spacies
marth
shiek
falcon
peach
jiggs

i know theres plenty of mu stuff already here but we need to revive it cuz doc is a boss
im tired of bein a scrub doc let alone a scrub

 

[KirbyKaze]

Hitting d-smash, grab, and fair is basically his key to winning all matchups. If you can gimp, even better.

 

[poega]

Thats a pretty gross simplification, imo doc has 3 kinds of attack that u dont mention ; the quick stuff, essentially jab and uair, the spacing stuff, ie ftilts and bair and then theres **** that penetrates like nair. Against most top-tiers, you gotta stay mobile and just land whatever u can to get them out of their comfort zone, eventually a situation will present itself where u can land the really dangerous moves like the stuff KK talks of above.

 

[prog]

KK is right though. The quick stuff, those jabs and upairs lead to grab/downsmash 50-50s. Grabs lead to all 3 of those. The spacing stuff is primarily your get off me stuff, that stuff doesn't help you win (with the exception of gimps), but more so keeps you from losing. Nair, when used offensively, usually leads into an okizeme setup which you can take advantage of, and what? Downsmash, grab, or fair, depending on how good your read is and how hard you want to commit.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

it makes me wonder about the difference between "I main this character" and "I play this character"
do you consider shroomed a doc main or a great player who plays doc
like no doubt the pioneers for doc are otg bob$ smashmac dogy and shroomed

cuz with the gimp potential of doc you wonder why m2k doesnt play doc like he used to cuz he cud cape cg and pill all day
the thing i like about smash though is you can play this game competitively but not be hella flashy with your upb cancels and **** like that
but you can play any body as simple as taking your gauranteed chain grabs, tech chases, and combos at certain percents

in particular watching doc shiek is one of my favorite matches
like how shroomed went through the shiek gauntlet was one of the most persistent tournament situations
it also goes with how old school metagame can beat out new school

doc imo is the best character in the game because he can win every match up if he spaces and gets his pill game/ dthrow kobe
so for doc i feel its nit stocks hes playing with, its more traditional fighting game health.
doc ***** spacies and any floaty and has cg all day on most chars
i really want doc to move up a tier cuz hes II good?

 

[Griffard]

Agree 100% with poega. Doc is like a baby Falcon/Sheik (simplification) hybrid in terms of combo game. He really flows nicely offensively.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

hell yea doc is so well balanced and really has all the tools he needs to win a national

 

[Griffard]

it makes me wonder about the difference between "I main this character" and "I play this character"
do you consider shroomed a doc main or a great player who plays doc
like no doubt the pioneers for doc are otg bob$ smashmac dogy and shroomed

cuz with the gimp potential of doc you wonder why m2k doesnt play doc like he used to cuz he cud cape cg and pill all day
the thing i like about smash though is you can play this game competitively but not be hella flashy with your upb cancels and **** like that
but you can play any body as simple as taking your gauranteed chain grabs, tech chases, and combos at certain percents

in particular watching doc shiek is one of my favorite matches
like how shroomed went through the shiek gauntlet was one of the most persistent tournament situations
it also goes with how old school metagame can beat out new school

doc imo is the best character in the game because he can win every match up if he spaces and gets his pill game/ dthrow kobe
so for doc i feel its nit stocks hes playing with, its more traditional fighting game health.
doc ***** spacies and any floaty and has cg all day on most chars
i really want doc to move up a tier cuz hes II good?

Yo dude you're becoming one of my favorite posters, easy. Great post, making me fall in love with the little Doctor again. Definitely going to train him some more today instead of playing top tiers because of you bro :')
But really, I agree and was just thinking this week about how it would be the dopest combination ever if M2K went straight Doc at tournaments. Also, DaJuan is for sure a Doc main at heart, he can't stay away for long. He said he wants to play Mario in every game, but he liked Doc better in this game cuz he can kill. Also totally agree that the Apex Sheik domination was unbelievable. Damn Doc is cute as hell.

Doc Stoner Boner

 

[poega]

Imo, doc is so well-rounded it's really hard to discern exactly what makes him strong, and actually quite hard to play him as well, strategically.

It's hard to discern any sort of go-to strategy with doc but there is always stuff that can be done. We have attacks that are fast, attacks that are powerful and attacks that have range. We have good movement and even a decent projectile.

It's very easy to pick up marth, see that he has huge range and start walling and focusing on spacing (note: I don't mean that marth is an easier character overall with this). In the same way most top tiers have a pretty clear and obvious edge, which quickly can be translated to a rough strategy. Doc's lack of such an edge makes it hard to pinpoint exactly how good he is. It also means that a doc's performance range vastly depending on if he knows the matchup completely or not.

 

[Max?]

Dont get hit. Bair/dsmash/uair a lot. Jab -> stuff. Don't jump unless you have to. Learn how to techchase. Usmash Oos is good sometimes. Hax keeps telling me that Doc players need to learn how to UpB cancel, but meh.

 

[Griffard]

You know it would be dope to have that tool so easily accessible in your arsenal, but it's just not worth the input difficulty imo. Low payoff

 

[poega]

I can honestly do it completely effortlessly while hitting someone, it's really not that hard. A bit tougher to get it right while whiffing but if u practice it for a while it will eventually come naturally and reliably.

 

[Griffard]

That's dope. I started getting alright when I sat down and decided to learn, but haven't been playing much Doc lately. If I decide to use him in tournament again I'll spend some time to better learn the cancel

 

[poega]

Just be careful of using it close to the edge and whiffing; if you miss it and do a full reverse up-b you will look like the biggest asshole alive

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

i can upb cancel easily as its not hard cuz all tech skill just takes learning the timing

but what is hard about upcanceling is the fact that i go diagonally up -> diagonally down and i accidentaly cape instead so its rediculous
id only roll if i tried to do oos

any ideas and are there any other methods for upb canceling

 

[poega]

I go diagonally up->diagonally up other side and down from there, and OOS was really never harder than not.

Btw, does anybody else ****ing hate when opponents switch characters alot?

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

i think its **** to watch m2k troll scrubs in monthlies but honestly respect dem counterpicks and stuff
the people i play with help me with important mus like shiek and marth consistently
although i am a very new player, i almost get an understanding ithink of falco vs marth ( just dont get hit by the tip of the ****)
yoooooooooo

 

[ZaXXoR]

Dont get hit. Bair/dsmash/uair a lot. Jab -> stuff. Don't jump unless you have to. Learn how to techchase. Usmash Oos is good sometimes. Hax keeps telling me that Doc players need to learn how to UpB cancel, but meh.

this^ my #1 issue as a doc main

I'm always in the air lol, its weird because I'll lose to people that don't even use advanced techs cuz i straight up get bored playing them and they just wait and bait, i need to keep it more simple and quit trying to do unnecessary ****

Watch Lemons up-b cancel tutorial, simplifies it hardcore, sit in training for like 30 mins, you'll see a big difference, ive actually used it effectively in match once or twice i just never really try to do it unless ive practiced it that day

 

[Doctor Pink]

I am new to posting on here, but I have lurked for a while. I main the doctor, and I sub Puff/Mewtwo. I play a very Pill-oriented game. I mostly run away and throw Pills, attempting to frustrate my opponent into making a mistake. I get called Lame most of the time when I win. I mostly only lose to my friend who mains Mario, but this is mainly because we have been training partners for years. the only thing I don't like about this character, is how fair Pills really are. I also play UMvC3, MvC2, and Skullgirls, and in those games, your character(s) is either really really broken, or they lose. If Pills didn't have the recovery that they do, I could see Doc being in the spot that Falco is at.

 

[Max?]

Good stuff man, excited to see more from you here. Always cool to have new blood and especially people that play other fighters in the mix

 

[onionchowder]

Tourney vids! Critique me please!

Against DSF's Fox; I dropped chaingrabs and edgeguards because of nerves. I had a lot of trouble getting in on his defensive play, though I did a lot of poor approaches. Also, I rely a lot on platforms and am bad on FD; tips for Doc on FD?

Matches are 3-stock because whatever man, **** you.

OnionChild vs. DSF
(Doc vs. Fox, games 1, 2, 3, 6)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRu7BB4w4rY

OnionChild vs. Z
(Doc vs. Falcon)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljMFbstYpMY



Also, who's going to EVO?

 

[Max?]

Nice Doc! I would work on some of your reaction time; you're taking a little too long to react to some throw -> fair setups and CG's. Also work on that DI. Sick combos and you're fast too. Keep it up man

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

really good movement and beautiful utilts
****, i have a scrub ass doc, i need to step it up lol ggs

 

[poega]

Overall clean, but some decisions made you lose those game that you really deserved to win (<3). For example, the forwardthrow at ~80% lost you two games I think. Just keep upthrowing imo or downthrow if u read non-sideway di. Also, maybe a little TOO much poking and not giving urself the chance to set up the occasional gimp, tho at times ur poking game is very good. Also like the mindgames when edgeguarding!

 

[KirbyKaze]

Doc's not really balanced.

Low range character with a heavy bias to the ground with his movement, bearing a handful of moves that are mostly on the fast side (grab frame 7, d-smash frame 5) and give huge returns (I'll add fair and situationally u-smash to that list). So basically he's kind of like ICs but without the gimmick factor or enormous play book. You could also compare him to a Sheik with no aerials. Either way, he's far from balanced aside from his weight and fall speed.

This is basically reflected in how he's played at high level. You basically play him like any other waiting-heavy, punishment oriented character where you're trying to make situations where you can land grab, d-smash, or start an air combo into fair (or similar big move). That's basically what most of his moveset facilitates - jabs, uairs, and other fast moves are typically disruption moves that halt the foe (which opens up for a grab, d-smash, or uair combo opportunity). On occasion those attacks accomplish something directly rather than simply stopping the foe and creating a situation where you have to read their response. Unfortunately, generally Doc isn't Sheik and you have to work to combo off disruptive pokes. The other big parts of his game (aside from evasion with his height, WD back, and other typical defense tools) is protecting himself with his shield to fish for commitments so he can counterattack (since a lot of characters have trouble throw comboing him) or managing his percent so he can make good exchanges with his crouch to hit his big moves. Winning with Doc is largely a matter of how good you are about converting the disruption into a clean hit, which means his big hits. He's also got some nice gimping but only Mew2king seems to be gay enough to use it.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

is doc the best chaingrabber in the game?
i will take my guaranteed chaingrab -> uthrow/dthrow kobe all day

 

[KirbyKaze]

Pikachu has a better chain grab vs FFers on Final Destination. Nothing else really compares to Pikachu's u-throw CG in terms of effectiveness at killing FFers because it's 0% all the way to u-smash KO percent inescapably and if they go offstage then you can simply uair spike them, grab the edge, and deal with the limited low recovery easily enough. That said, it's probably comparable to Marth and Peach's CGs if you're good at Doc's option trees.

The other character class that tends to get chain grabbed a lot is the mid-weights and semi-FFers. Doc is okay at this, since he can chain grab Sheik, Ganon, Pikachu, and so forth for a bit. But he's kind of mediocre in this respect relative to the other characters that can do this. Sheik namely outshines him here. ICs and Ganon do as well.

So, with all that said, Doc probably isn't the best chain grabber. That said, he's nice in that he can do a big throw combo to the bulk of the cast and if you actually bother to learn how to d-throw fair the floaties then he's got a better throw on them than Sheik. That's kind of cool.

 

[mas_torque]

for an edgeguard/gimp has anyone tried sh dair off the stage to block a recovery, then dj bair/uair to stagespike?

 

[ZaXXoR]

for an edgeguard/gimp has anyone tried sh dair off the stage to block a recovery, then dj bair/uair to stagespike?

well considering most players would tech the stagespike id assume not, I'm not 100% sure but i believe part of the backair just pushes you a bit and doesnt allow for DI, so if you can actually land the right part of it 2-3 times in a row you CAN gimp, but most of the time they can use your bair to di back on stage

 

[mas_torque]

well considering most players would tech the stagespike id assume not, I'm not 100% sure but i believe part of the backair just pushes you a bit and doesnt allow for DI, so if you can actually land the right part of it 2-3 times in a row you CAN gimp, but most of the time they can use your bair to di back on stage

i feel it could be an effective mixup since usually you're getting knocked away from the stage. up B immediately afterwards would at least cover you if they did tech wouldn't it?

 

[KirbyKaze]

for an edgeguard/gimp has anyone tried sh dair off the stage to block a recovery, then dj bair/uair to stagespike?

This sort of thing can work. It's mostly a vs FFers thing because it's easy to hit SH dair on an up+B coming up. This opens up opportunities to poke them and set up an offstage bair or cape on the forced low recovery (which is a stock). Just dair, l-cancel (you hit only a few hits to avoid or minimize chance of SDI interfering with the set up), and then prod them with f-tilt or such (only other choices are really jab and d-smash). From there just stalk trajectory and hit the appropriate jugular.

Otherwise, dair is an interesting choice as an edge guard because its high duration and priority makes it easy to hit but then it's laggy and hits up, meaning it will save opponents unless you combo off it. The lag and low stun can complicate this.

 

[SmashMac]

I had calculated how many times you had to press the B button to get full height to perform a PTP at one point and I'm sure it was around 1 B press every few frames (3~4 I think.) If you are on Yoshi's Story and stand below the middle platform and down+B and can reach just above the middle platform so that you can land on it, you've successfully performed a PTP. That's a better way than practicing the DJ after tornado method because I've found you can still DJ after a non-PTP even though it may seem like you've done the proper PTP.

EDIT: This post was replying to someone a few pages ago ... whoops.

 

[Superw0rri0]

These past two weeks I've been playing around with brawl mario for a small local brawl tourney (did terrible btw), but I was intrigued by all of the little glitches and gimping tools that he has. One of them that I thought was really interesting was his jump cape glitch, for those who don't know, if you cape someone as their jumping or accelerating upwards, it increases their momentum making them go higher then intended. Usually used against snake's recovery for those who can pull it off. I noticed this "glitch" applies to doc's cape too. Is this known among doc players? More importantly, is it useful. I was playing against the luigi cpu for fun and he would always miss his nairs on me when ever I caped him as he jumps.

 

[onionchowder]

Thanks for the comments!

@Superw0rri0 -- The vertical boost from cape is very noticeable. I think that the cape pushes the opponent away from Doc; if you cape from the side, they get pushed horizontally more, if you cape from slightly below, they get pushed slightly higher. I haven't tested this though. The lift from the cape is nice for warding off Peach's aerials from diagonally above.

@KK's "Doc is not balanced" -- I totally agree. I think people just like to say that Mario (and by extension, Doc) is the most well-rounded character because he's Nintendo's flagship, and the main character is usually the most well-rounded (like in Mario Kart).

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

going off of ptp height
i heard diing up immediately helps but if i want to get closer to the stage and immediately hold towards the stage will that require more inputs?

 

[Doctor Pink]

So, after about 8 months of not playing this game, I finally got a Gamecube today, and I played significantly better than I ever did before. I don't have the best execution, but I have much better execution than most of the people in my area. I have been reading the Doc threads on here, and my game has stepped up just from this alone. I think I love you guys/girls/internets!

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

I think I love you guys/girls/internets!

just guys dude

there really arent any female docs anymoar sadly

i have a massive nurse fetish, wud love to team with a stock holder doc

 

[Doctor Pink]

I am only having trouble doing UpB Cancel facing right, but I am getting that too. I am going to try to host a tourney in my local scene. I can do it on whiff sometimes, but I can do it 100% facing left. UpB Cancel is too good of a tool to not get used.

 

[Superw0rri0]

So I was checking out docs hitboxes and I know that his cape hit box goes below the stage is well known but I haven't found any images of it so here's that on the left. Same with downward ftilt to see it off the ledge and how it can cover fox's and falco's side b recovery and his grab range for the lols.

I just like seeing things like this visually so here it is for everyone!

Shout out to ghillie for showing this to me on his live stream!