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Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!
- Thread starter otg
- Start date
VGmasta
Smash Lord
Well the matchup is not that skewed. But with those weak *** cape kills plus absurdities like get up attack -> cape on our side, I can kinda see why you'd say that.
I'm gonna try to get Saturdays off of this job so I can start showing you guys how to truly play Doc. I haven't been to a tournament in over 14 months!
Max?
Smash Champion
2013 Doc is fast and slippery, he combos and edgeguards Ganon so free.
Show us Ricky, you are our only hope
ElloEddy
Smash Journeyman
sup guys i just wanted some advice with doc..i used him alot when i first started learning ....went to a tournament got wrecked as my main and sec back then (doc) and everyone in nyc says go falco lol since it would be easier to get better with him...
but i just wanted to know ..what to practice/work on with this guy to become more solid and start using him more seriously
but i just wanted to know ..what to practice/work on with this guy to become more solid and start using him more seriously
You aren't really giving us much to go with. What are having trouble with? Have you mastered all the basics? Are there certain difficult matchups or do you just lack experience generally with the character?
My suggestion is this. Make sure you really know Doc and can execute all his basic ATs, combos, setups etc. without problems. Watch a lot of videos (tutorials and matches) and try to see what happens and why it happens. What did player X do after D-throw? Was it the best possible follow-up? What other options did he have? Maybe Up-throw, uptilt, upair? Why did he lose/win? Try to really think about the matches and investigate them critically. Maybe post here your thoughts and people will tell you if you were right on this and that or not. I think that might be even better indicator of your knowledge and skills than your matches. Of course recorded matches would help a lot also.
Though I must add, if you simply haven't mastered the basics of Doc and lack experience, then none of this matters and you should just keep practicing and practicing with people.
My suggestion is this. Make sure you really know Doc and can execute all his basic ATs, combos, setups etc. without problems. Watch a lot of videos (tutorials and matches) and try to see what happens and why it happens. What did player X do after D-throw? Was it the best possible follow-up? What other options did he have? Maybe Up-throw, uptilt, upair? Why did he lose/win? Try to really think about the matches and investigate them critically. Maybe post here your thoughts and people will tell you if you were right on this and that or not. I think that might be even better indicator of your knowledge and skills than your matches. Of course recorded matches would help a lot also.
Though I must add, if you simply haven't mastered the basics of Doc and lack experience, then none of this matters and you should just keep practicing and practicing with people.
Gea
Smash Master
Doc is all about having ridiculously good fundamentals and knowing when to be patient/make reads.
Griffard
Smash Ace
In a nutshell, yep. Really good summary. I also think it's important for him to make the most of his opportunities. For example, capitalizing fully when the opponent is off stage, knowing which throw is best for the opponent's character and percentage, and knowing which followups are guaranteed/can lead to a kill, etc.
Svetsunov
Smash Apprentice
Shroomed are you gonna stick with doc?
So I've never really cared about stage-striking and never really thought about them for Doc so I'm looking to expand my knowledge on them. What are the best stages generally for Doc? And what should I avoid at all costs? I like PS personally against almost all the Top and High characters because a lot of players feel uncomfortable there and I've never felt negatively about it. From my understanding FoD is considered good for Doc but I'm not too sure about it. FD against fastfallers seems okay if I can manage the CGs. I have no idea about DL64 and I'm still not sure about BF. I feel like I should learn YS better because I usually like to strike it because of the small space and taking on Fox, Sheik or Falco there feels quite intimidating.
boss8
Smash Hero
shroomed is already a doc legend at this point.....
for him to go ahead n plays other characters is fine with me...
though watching his doc is pretty fun..loool
for him to go ahead n plays other characters is fine with me...
though watching his doc is pretty fun..loool
Gea
Smash Master
Doc is a character that goes to the stages the opponent least likes instead of trying to go to a stage he likes best, at least in general. FoD is good because Doc is short and the platforms don't really hinder him, but they hinder other people. That sort of thing. I advise you to think about stages more that way (minus FD which is a good pick against anyone you can CG) and it will take you farther than saying "well Doc likes ____"
Also in general the only time it's worth striking BF is if you know the other person loves the stage or is going to give you a hard time with the high top platform. I love seeing people be at a loss during striking when I start by striking BF.
Also in general the only time it's worth striking BF is if you know the other person loves the stage or is going to give you a hard time with the high top platform. I love seeing people be at a loss during striking when I start by striking BF.
VGmasta
Smash Lord
It just seems like Shroomed gets away with a lot of bull**** moves.
Like I just watched Mango's Falcon get scrapped by Shroomed's Doc in teams from Apex2013.
Shroomed was landing bogus full hop n-airs and crap that isn't supposed to be allowed to work against Falcon or in teams in general, smh.
Like I just watched Mango's Falcon get scrapped by Shroomed's Doc in teams from Apex2013.
Shroomed was landing bogus full hop n-airs and crap that isn't supposed to be allowed to work against Falcon or in teams in general, smh.
boss8
Smash Hero
can u really argue it though?
he's placing top 5 at nationals consistently.
and he places pretty high in his region..
#jussayin
Shroomed is consistent to the point where if he didn't get top ten at any tournament, I would consider it a bad showing.
About good Doc stages, I agree with Gea that you generally want to focus on stages your opponent doesn't like, cause Doc can be good on any stage depending on the matchup.
On that subject, what stages do you all think are Doc's best and worst stages in his tougher match ups, or all the characters above him basically?
About good Doc stages, I agree with Gea that you generally want to focus on stages your opponent doesn't like, cause Doc can be good on any stage depending on the matchup.
On that subject, what stages do you all think are Doc's best and worst stages in his tougher match ups, or all the characters above him basically?
Bl@ckChris
Smash Hero
VGmasta, i'm not sure if it's your job to recognize or determine what is and isn't "supposed" to work sometimes. it tends to be more useful to find out why something worked and what situation made it work.
people get hit for reasons. those reasons don't tend to be obvious as we might think. nothing kage does with ganon at face value should ever work. it doesn't mean that there aren't reasons why he hits people. i'm sure sometimes the same can be said with shroomed.
people get hit for reasons. those reasons don't tend to be obvious as we might think. nothing kage does with ganon at face value should ever work. it doesn't mean that there aren't reasons why he hits people. i'm sure sometimes the same can be said with shroomed.
Gea
Smash Master
If you ask him about this he will say he purposefully does stuff that isn't supposed to work because it isn't expected. If a Doc played 100% by the book he would get shut down by the 100% by the book better characters. That's part of why Doc isn't moving up in the tier list, he has to take risks to reap rewards. This used to really bother me about certain players as well, mostly because people who don't know better will watch the match and draw bad conclusions about the character while you and I know better. Just think about it this way, he isn't doing something that doesn't work, he's making a read to do something that only situationally works. Why not stuff a jump if you know Mango loves to fullhop and probably won't have the reaction time to uair? Just don't tell everyone else to try to come down on Falcon with nair.
ElloEddy
Smash Journeyman
its not bogus its called knowing captian falcon always jumps ,,and reading your opponent ..just like how ppl stupidly run into falcos up tilt is how shroomed uses nair and uair if u ask me ..he gets so much of those on foxes
ElloEddy
Smash Journeyman
anywhooo ...help my doc plz i been working on one for a couple weeks finally got a vid ..i kinda need help with recovery and BNB things
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4rxbrAUESI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4rxbrAUESI
Gea
Smash Master
I'm too lazy to add timestamps but I am just gonna watch it once and give my thoughts as they come to me.
- Be aware of low % play. This becomes more and more important as you play better and better people. The first thing you hit with in a match is dash attack which is a bad idea. Free grab from sheik.
- Use dash attack sparingly. Really sparingly. Especially in that MU
- Good cc dsmash, and great fthrow turnaround falloff bair. Had you doublejumped immediately you could have gotten off another bair and probably the gimp. Your sluggish followup meant you should have been the one who died there. You probably should have up + B'd early after your mistake because you could have actually been edgehogged.
- Watch your %s when you dthrow. Personally I go for a dthrow fsmash/usmash depending on % and positioning vs sheik. Usmash is a great way to put her in a bad position off of a grab and follow up. Learn your grab game, Doc can't drop what he gets from grabs (even though every Doc ever does, and they lose matches because of it)
- Ledgehop dair is a horrible idea, and you missed your l-cancel on it too. Ledgedash is probably Doc's best option. Sheik could have killed you for that easily. Fsmash afterwards was also a really weird read?
- Sheik dash attacks the back of your shield and you wd behind her dsmash. I am pretty sure she could have shielded this but it was nice either way. You crossed up and sent her offstage.
- Good choice of the regrab over a smash considering %, but bad choice for three pummels on %. Even light mashing would have broken it. Doc has a slow pummel.
- Worst option ever after the bthrow. You throw a pill then sit there on stage and despite the sheik coming on stage for no reason, you flub a followup, somehow get a grab and then dthrow. So many things wrong here. First you should always just get on the edge and keep your invincibility fresh and make the call to either aerial her if she starts it too close or time your getup in such a way that you can cover her going both places. By % and stage it would be a better idea to bthrow her again rather than fair/fsmash. Dthrow let Sheik escape for free with any DI besides what they did, and then you made the same mistake of getting back on stage early. You can easily punish sheik's landing lag on reaction. Stay on the edge.
- It really isn't good positioning to put yourself with your back to the edge against sheik or marth after they've died. You have lots of space, use it. Waveland around on the platforms and make them chase you. This isn't a spacy you would possibly gimp, but even then Doc doesn't have any good edgestalls or anything.
- Never jump from the ledge.
- If someone jabs you at low %, CCdsmash. If they flub up in front of you, grab or dsmash, do not jab them. It's a bad habit and one you need to break. Sheik dash attacks and ends up in front of you? Jabbing gives them the option to maybe get out. Someone shielding in front of you and you jab their shield? Gives them the option to grab you. Don't add in the jab in those situations.
- If you can't get to the edge in time and they grab it, either walk in close for the CC dsmash if you are at low %s or space yourself by getting semiclose and WD back ftilt if you know they are going to come up with an aerial.
- Don't panic and up B on stage if they aren't poised to grab the ledge. You can even quickly sweetspot with a fastfall then up B if you know it's safe.
- If you are high, don't be afraid to DI back or in place and pill while returning to the stage. You may have prevented getting baired three times, though that sheik edgeguarded you like you should be edgegaurding them.
- You miss an opportunity to let the sheik gimp themselves because you don't stay on the edge.
- If you are going to pill at least SH it so you can move a bit.
- You get stuck falling for being in Sheik's ftilt range but out of Doc's comfort range. If you get put into this pressure just dash or WD away.
Honestly though you just need to play more. Both of you have pretty bad DI and move selections. It looks more like you guys are trying to get a grasp on technical skill and what moves to use more than having matches about good decision making abilities.
- Be aware of low % play. This becomes more and more important as you play better and better people. The first thing you hit with in a match is dash attack which is a bad idea. Free grab from sheik.
- Use dash attack sparingly. Really sparingly. Especially in that MU
- Good cc dsmash, and great fthrow turnaround falloff bair. Had you doublejumped immediately you could have gotten off another bair and probably the gimp. Your sluggish followup meant you should have been the one who died there. You probably should have up + B'd early after your mistake because you could have actually been edgehogged.
- Watch your %s when you dthrow. Personally I go for a dthrow fsmash/usmash depending on % and positioning vs sheik. Usmash is a great way to put her in a bad position off of a grab and follow up. Learn your grab game, Doc can't drop what he gets from grabs (even though every Doc ever does, and they lose matches because of it)
- Ledgehop dair is a horrible idea, and you missed your l-cancel on it too. Ledgedash is probably Doc's best option. Sheik could have killed you for that easily. Fsmash afterwards was also a really weird read?
- Sheik dash attacks the back of your shield and you wd behind her dsmash. I am pretty sure she could have shielded this but it was nice either way. You crossed up and sent her offstage.
- Good choice of the regrab over a smash considering %, but bad choice for three pummels on %. Even light mashing would have broken it. Doc has a slow pummel.
- Worst option ever after the bthrow. You throw a pill then sit there on stage and despite the sheik coming on stage for no reason, you flub a followup, somehow get a grab and then dthrow. So many things wrong here. First you should always just get on the edge and keep your invincibility fresh and make the call to either aerial her if she starts it too close or time your getup in such a way that you can cover her going both places. By % and stage it would be a better idea to bthrow her again rather than fair/fsmash. Dthrow let Sheik escape for free with any DI besides what they did, and then you made the same mistake of getting back on stage early. You can easily punish sheik's landing lag on reaction. Stay on the edge.
- It really isn't good positioning to put yourself with your back to the edge against sheik or marth after they've died. You have lots of space, use it. Waveland around on the platforms and make them chase you. This isn't a spacy you would possibly gimp, but even then Doc doesn't have any good edgestalls or anything.
- Never jump from the ledge.
- If someone jabs you at low %, CCdsmash. If they flub up in front of you, grab or dsmash, do not jab them. It's a bad habit and one you need to break. Sheik dash attacks and ends up in front of you? Jabbing gives them the option to maybe get out. Someone shielding in front of you and you jab their shield? Gives them the option to grab you. Don't add in the jab in those situations.
- If you can't get to the edge in time and they grab it, either walk in close for the CC dsmash if you are at low %s or space yourself by getting semiclose and WD back ftilt if you know they are going to come up with an aerial.
- Don't panic and up B on stage if they aren't poised to grab the ledge. You can even quickly sweetspot with a fastfall then up B if you know it's safe.
- If you are high, don't be afraid to DI back or in place and pill while returning to the stage. You may have prevented getting baired three times, though that sheik edgeguarded you like you should be edgegaurding them.
- You miss an opportunity to let the sheik gimp themselves because you don't stay on the edge.
- If you are going to pill at least SH it so you can move a bit.
- You get stuck falling for being in Sheik's ftilt range but out of Doc's comfort range. If you get put into this pressure just dash or WD away.
Honestly though you just need to play more. Both of you have pretty bad DI and move selections. It looks more like you guys are trying to get a grasp on technical skill and what moves to use more than having matches about good decision making abilities.
ElloEddy
Smash Journeyman
Yeah my di is pretty bad I'm working on it though , I kept trying read where his revovery would land instead of just keep tossing him off stage and. Reapating it till he died ...and i was missing my opprutinties , still gotta get a hang of docs range and things he's capable of ...thanks gea good advice though imma work on it and post another vid in a couple days or weeks
Shroomed
Smash Master
Why is everything I do something that shouldn't work? =(
I'm a firm believer that if you play too scared when you are at a disadvantage (character disadvantage in this case) you will lose harder then if you just man up and charge em down sometimes. Playing safe means you wait for them to make a mistake, and good players make few major mistakes.
I'm a firm believer that if you play too scared when you are at a disadvantage (character disadvantage in this case) you will lose harder then if you just man up and charge em down sometimes. Playing safe means you wait for them to make a mistake, and good players make few major mistakes.
Gea
Smash Master
Get up attack -> cape 2013 metagame right here
That match was mad nasty and got me wet
That match was mad nasty and got me wet
Griffard
Smash Ace
Went to a tourney yesterday, pretty small, I did okay. Not as great as I had hoped, but dece. Lost to the dudes who got 1st and 2nd.. so sorta unlucky draw. MM'd Zone in a Doc ditto and won though, so that was cool. I need to figure out how to beat good Birds and Foxes. I'm figuring out the Marth matchup more and more, but space animals are tough. Like comboing them is fine and all and grabs -> dunks is pretty doable for me but it's about the defense I think.
Max?
Smash Champion
New smashboards is ass, I may be done here
Griffard
Smash Ace
Have you tried the different layouts? I like Ruby a lot better than the one it starts you on.
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Ruby reminds me of red velvet cake, and that ****s for ****
Griffard
Smash Ace
No way Joe-zay. That **** is yummy yummy.
Max?
Smash Champion
I still think the layout looks like ass. I was using a super old smashboards layout which was simple and nice before the new site update. Not a fan of all this new school ****.
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
My only gripe is the ajax scripts loading slow. Performance has already gone up and I suppose it will only get better
Gea
Smash Master
Yeah I don't like how sluggish it feels in comparison either, but at least everything is getting constant updates. I still want a "dislike" button, though.
Right now my biggest gripe is that signatures just pick and choose when they want to show up and you can't control them anymore. Also they just recently removed the ability to see who is viewing a forum, which is also pretty lame. Stuff is still being updated though, so hopefully it'll get better.
Edit: My sig didn't show up :'(
Edit: My sig didn't show up :'(
Gea
Smash Master
Facebook doesn't because it would be counter-productive in making people continue to post every facet of their lives. This isn't facebook, and to be blunt I value either no feedback or honest feedback over a glorified circlejerk button.
They are working on the thread viewing stuff, that was a pretty well-liked feature of the boards. Dear lord this edit window is horrible.
They are working on the thread viewing stuff, that was a pretty well-liked feature of the boards. Dear lord this edit window is horrible.
Rocketpowerchill
Smash Ace
People dont realize Shroomed isn't playing melee. hes playin fukcin nba jam
Rocketpowerchill
Smash Ace
Hey, any tips on doc's recovery cuz i heard smashmac say u hav to press b 15 times in one sec to get actual height on a perfect tornado press. wen im grounded i can get the double jump after but wen recovering i see tht it is actually decreasing my recovery cuz im nit getting all 15 inputs of down b. If anyone has their methods for tornado i needa hear them.
Gea
Smash Master
Easiest way most people get perfect presses is to mash the motion out of something else. Say you cape, then as the cape comes out you are already mashing down B. This helps you not mess it up.