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Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

WumpaWolfy

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 10, 2011
Messages
74
Location
Mississauga, Canada
I like the way you put it max? (otg?), I've been practicing spacing diagonally at range and cutting down on trying to approach with bairs and nairs and I've had some success. I had kind of dismissed capeing lasers because I'd read in some of the guides that usually the net payoff for capeing just isn't worth it, (and I never noticed it much in pro vids) but I feel silly for not experimenting with it more now. Awesome that you can waveland after a SH cape though! Oh and is upB'ing OOS still recommended if you struggle canceling it consistently? Yoshi and Fountain trick is pretty cool, I'll keep that in mind when I counter pick.

But ya, the other two crippling areas of the match up right now is my confusion over how to DI the pillar combos and the fact that I tech jump to my death almost 80% of the time I tech falco's dair...
 

Max?

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 4, 2011
Messages
2,255
Location
Falco Bair
I'm a fan of short hop -> cape -> waveland when trying to cape. It gives you a decision point; you can choose (after seeing whether the cape connects or not) whether to waveland forward or backward.
Yeah that's ****. Forgot about that one.
 

Shroomed

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 5, 2008
Messages
4,793
Location
Santa Cruz
Doc isn't really interesting, I agree with you.

Since I was a kid I picked a character and played them no matter what and I just never changed that mentality. Ive kinda cheated lately by going sheik/marth so much but I'm back to all Doc.

Except sheik is OP in teams and way too fun.
:phone:
 

Max?

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 4, 2011
Messages
2,255
Location
Falco Bair
What other characters do you play, OTG? I've been wondering about that for a while.

Smooth Criminal
I use the other Mario Bros (<3 Luigi), The Spacies, Marth, Falcon, some low tiers like DK and Ness. A lil Roy lately too

Doc isn't really interesting, I agree with you.

Since I was a kid I picked a character and played them no matter what and I just never changed that mentality. Ive kinda cheated lately by going sheik/marth so much but I'm back to all Doc.

Except sheik is OP in teams and way too fun.
:phone:
Word I'm the same way. Picked up Doc a few years ago, haven't really looked back.

Aka if you get grabs/ hard reads.
Yeah, thats tough tho lol
 

Shroomed

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 5, 2008
Messages
4,793
Location
Santa Cruz
I got a LITTLE more rust to dust off.

I almost beat Zhu in GFs, but I also killed myself like 3-4 times the exact same way. I'm not sure if it was my controller or me.

Zhu was playing so good yesterday though, you guys should definitely check the vids when they're up.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
I like it when Zhu plays like the super elite Falco he

...

I'm not sure how to finish that sentence. If I say "is" I come off as a fanboy (which is okay because I love Zhu). If I say "was" then I sound cynical and bitter, but that matches my boards persona (when am I ever positive?). I'm in a pickle. Best leave it blank.

One way or another though, I love Zhu-Zhu immensely.
 

VGmasta

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 6, 2008
Messages
1,252
Location
West Palm Beach, FL + the Doc Boards!!
I got a LITTLE more rust to dust off.

I almost beat Zhu in GFs, but I also killed myself like 3-4 times the exact same way. I'm not sure if it was my controller or me.
I just watched the grand finals match of Shroomed vs SFAT from The Deep II.
I gonna guess that your controller is on it's way out. You were doing a lot the same errors that I kept doing as my controller went inoperable.

The most obvious error was the unintentional shielding. I can tell that some of the shielding was outside of your customary timing.

I've quit tournaments because of broken controllers, AND my job. :(

you doc mains like to wavedash onto stage (from edge) then dsmash right?

when spacies are at like 70-80% u can hit em wit Dtilt...sending them flying off stage...

possible edgeguard setup..
I'd rather d-tilt, than d-smash most of the characters with bad recoveries: Spacies, Ganon, Falcon.

Most of them airdodge or panic jump right after you trip 'em up with d-tilt.


AND Doc IS an interesting character :bee:
 

Max?

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 4, 2011
Messages
2,255
Location
Falco Bair
Just spent the last few days trapped at PC's house because of the Hurricane and played way too much over the last few days. My Fox is a threat, **** Doc
 

onionchowder

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 8, 2008
Messages
346
Location
Chicago / San Diego
Can I get a critique on my Doc v. Fox? I played several $1 MMs with a friend, and the set count went 1-3, 3-2, 3-0, 2-3. Only two of the matches were recorded.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ACWS3_SRvs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKWkPREJ_eo
Apologies in advance for the poor quality and bad music.

I know I have a lot of bad habits. I should grab instead of cc -> Dsmash or WD back -> Fsmash, and my ledge options are predictable. Any advice would be appreciated.
 

Gea

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 16, 2005
Messages
4,236
Location
Houston, Texas
Can I get a critique on my Doc v. Fox? I played several $1 MMs with a friend, and the set count went 1-3, 3-2, 3-0, 2-3. Only two of the matches were recorded.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ACWS3_SRvs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKWkPREJ_eo
Apologies in advance for the poor quality and bad music.

I know I have a lot of bad habits. I should grab instead of cc -> Dsmash or WD back -> Fsmash, and my ledge options are predictable. Any advice would be appreciated.
I clicked the first match, heard the music, and lost my ****.

After watching I can say I have way more things to say about the Fox, but I'll give you some advice. Stop rolling. You get pressured into rolls easily, and part of it is you do it accidentally I think when you shield and hitstun and all, but other times you just throw out a move that whiffs and you roll backwards on reaction. Quit it. Work on getting your WDs longer and lower to the ground, this will help your mobility. Do not approach while dropping the pill. WAY too many attacks in this game eat the pill and hit you too. Retreating pill or follow the pill after you are out of lag. Fastfall way more often, you don't enough. Work on your OoS game, Usmash especially. WD OoS instead of roll. Consider usmash after a uthrow (you had it pretty easy because that Fox had bad DI). Imo uthrow usmash uair dsmash is way better at mid %s than hoping to extend the chaingrab. More wavelands. Shoot a pill in the air? Waveland. Did a rising bair? Waveland.

Learn to sweetspot correctly. Your head should not go above the edge, Doc has them magic hands. You need better survival DI but that's a harder thing to practice, it comes mostly with experience. Good for using ftilt but bad times for it. Poke safely at shields with it, if they are going to ledgehop an aerial, use it. Works extremely well vs characters like Marth who generally can ledgehop an aerial. Get on the edge and bair them if they are below stage level. If they are level with the stage and up B, jump off towards them to cape, it covers if they go straight or high. You still miss l-cancels sometimes. Fix that.

Work on your platform game. Go on every stage and teach yourself the exact timing to waveland out of a jump to most quickly get up to platforms in order to techchase. Way better option than trying to harass with an aerial. Stop trying to use upB offensively, even oos it should be a last resort move. You never use dair. Fullhop them to stuff jumps. I like using dair -> uair/bair or dairing the top of a shield and wavelanding away. It is a more situational thing but is extremely good if you notice the other player jumps always to get out of their shield.

Don't ledgehop an aerial unless they have whiffed. Doc gets poked away too easily. Get into a habit of immediately ledgedashing back onstage when you have invincibility. You need to work on your gimp game in general, as well as getting onto the edge asap to get clutch edgehogs.

A lot of this stuff will just come from playing, but there is one thing everyone must learn in their pursuit of greatness that few ever fully obtain, but is absolutely required if you want to keep playing Doc and not feel the oppression of his limitations on you, especially when looking at just about every character above him. The key to being good at this game is by playing a very conservative game. By this I mean all those times you throw a pill and rush in with an aerial or the like are times where the only thing stopping you from being punished is his skill, he has full advantage in those moments to decide the outcome of the exchange. So get this into your head that the goal of Melee is to successfully bait and then punish your opponent above all else. Players that win by aggression do so by absolutely outplaying their opponent to the point of getting hard reads or overwhelming them, but they are still baiting their opponent. They are baiting the jumps, the rolls, and the fear to do predictable things as they punish. So think about these words long and hard, and think about them while watching videos of great Doc players like Shroomed. Think about it every time you jump towards the other player with the hopes of landing a hit and constantly remind yourself that waiting will make you into the player you want to be if you have the mental fortitude to stick with it.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
Doc is all about his **** punishment and not falling too far behind

He likes footsies and discouraging WD back / dash dance so he can compete with his incremental movements

He's low range but he's got solid stuff above him

His shield is very good except vs Fox, Peach, and Falco basically

I find Shroomed "Drephens" more than Drephen in that d-throw > d-smash * ??? seems to turn mathes for him fast and he loves jab > d-smash

I wish Doc's jab had Sheik's frame data so his jab stuff was more legitimate

Learn how to d-throw fair
 

Max?

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 4, 2011
Messages
2,255
Location
Falco Bair
Doc is all about his **** punishment and not falling too far behind

He likes footsies and discouraging WD back / dash dance so he can compete with his incremental movements

He's low range but he's got solid stuff above him

His shield is very good except vs Fox, Peach, and Falco basically

I find Shroomed "Drephens" more than Drephen in that d-throw > d-smash * ??? seems to turn mathes for him fast and he loves jab > d-smash

I wish Doc's jab had Sheik's frame data so his jab stuff was more legitimate

Learn how to d-throw fair
This post is great. I had to bold that one line because it is freaking true. Doc has solid Xfactor tho, he can turn a losing match around quickly with cheap stuff.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
Sadly, in this game, Doc's LV3 Xfactor is only half as good as Falco & Fox's shine. Which are in turn only two thirds as good as Puff's rest.

And M2K's grab is better than all of them.
 

Shroomed

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 5, 2008
Messages
4,793
Location
Santa Cruz
KK, that's the exact reason why I also think I don't do as well as I could.

I use jab->d-smash TOO much. I need to mix in more jab->grab, jab->aerial
 
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