KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
TBH like 50% (maybe higher?) of being good vs Falco is death-touching him reliably or semi-reliably
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Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!
- Thread starter otg
- Start date
Scidadle
Smash Champion
I know Full Jump nair is good vs spacies but I can't help but feel like I'm not using it correctly. I never seem to land it and I always find myself getting punished by bair or when I land infront of them.
boss8
Smash Hero
its mainly a mixup tool.....many people try to bait you.....so pill/space/Dash dance.
Max?
Smash Champion
Yes. Th0rn, StricNYN3, Forward and G$ are all pretty terrible
boss8
Smash Hero
i agree with 2 names out of the 4...
SmashMac
Smash Lord
I don't know why but this post made me laugh. Lol Max.
Max?
Smash Champion
Hey man, I've gone to three tournies this year, so this list aint so bad.
+
*insert who have you guys beaten that's noteworthy* *Shiz is a washed up fraud* etc etc
onionchowder
Smash Journeyman
@OTG -- vids of you beating Falco? Not calling you out, I just need vids to study.
boss8
Smash Hero
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlbxkdbWdM8
LOOL 1st stock was reading rainbows.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiQJirmHfUE
shroomed vs zhu for 20 mins...
SmashMac
Smash Lord
Back when Shiz and I used to play SSBM every day (maybe 1.5 to 2 years ago), I only ever beat him with my Doc. vs. his Falco like 3 times maybe out of probably over 50,000 matches (yes, fifty-thousand), LMFAO. That's my best Falco experience. Bronson is a freaking beast. I've never really beaten anyone note-worthy in tournament that played Falco though, primarily because I just never really went OOS and the only Falco players from down here that I was weary of were my brother Shiz and Lambchops.
Shroomed
Smash Master
Don't learn from me. I'm a ****ty example.
I take too many risks I think.
I take too many risks I think.
boss8
Smash Hero
^we can learn what NOT to do xD
Max?
Smash Champion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b67UJvGYw6U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSx7X9FsuwE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbcNpoioZVo
My set vs. Th0rn from HoG wasn't recorded sadly.
I played with Aziz yesterday and he goes "you should jab->dsmash more, it's all shroomed does and its ****"
So I started doing it, and started beating the **** out of him. It was sorta ********.
Sup Th0rn?
th0rn
Smash Lord
sup buddy
the set where I 6-1'd you in HoG grand finals didn't get recorded?
that does suck
Max?
Smash Champion
It was 3-1 in two sets, and they were all tight. And I 3-0ed you in WF. Looking forward to our rematch tho.
boss8
Smash Hero
yo cape destroys all of jiggs approaches......
and pills make it hard for her to approach....
if she bairs,just cape it...
fair? cape it
does 12% to her and nothin to you...LOOL
and cape also hits behind you...so even if u mess up....it doesn't matter xD
jab>dsmash next stock.....
dthrow>kobe next stock....
they key is to kill jiggs before she kills you..
and pills make it hard for her to approach....
if she bairs,just cape it...
fair? cape it
does 12% to her and nothin to you...LOOL
and cape also hits behind you...so even if u mess up....it doesn't matter xD
jab>dsmash next stock.....
dthrow>kobe next stock....
they key is to kill jiggs before she kills you..
SmashMac
Smash Lord
This is like the best revelation post I've ever read (not a revelation to me).
boss8
Smash Hero
aye man it works....obv not jus spamming it though....mixups.....jiggs jus pick falco vs me now =/
also.....
would you hit that?
don't lie
http://www.roflista.com/2012/10/gods-apology-to-fat-girls.html
also.....
would you hit that?
don't lie
http://www.roflista.com/2012/10/gods-apology-to-fat-girls.html
Shroomed
Smash Master
Would not touch.
Ever.
Ever.
boss8
Smash Hero
^ LOOOOOOOOOOL
well im a big dude.....so challenge accepted..
well im a big dude.....so challenge accepted..
Mr.Lemon
Smash Journeyman
<3 Cape <3
Max?
Smash Champion
Brookman come to NY
Shroomed
Smash Master
Got 2nd yesterday to SFAT. Went all Doc and didn't cop out. I'm starting to find my Doc groove again, stay tuned.
boss8
Smash Hero
how close was you in Sfat?
good stuff btw...
good stuff btw...
Max?
Smash Champion
Yeah man good ****. SFAT is a freaking beast nowadays. I'm excited for vids
.
.
Violence
Smash Lord
Yo Dajuan, I saw your matches, and noticed you looked a little off. Finding your groove again?
One thing I noticed was you hitting Zac's shield with the third jab hit, the kick, and he would insta punish you because the attack has too much hit lag.
I don't think you've done this before, but I just wanted to know if you thought about jab canceling for shield pressure. It's what Hugo does to spam jab on shield as Samus, because we have the same problem, second hit from Samus's jab sucks on shield.
jab->crouch->jab repeat
or the more efficient
Hold control stick 45 degrees down and away from the direction you're facing, jab jab jab jab jab
Whichever, I think might be a good tool to have, since you love to punish off of a jab hit confirm.
Catch you at KoC.
One thing I noticed was you hitting Zac's shield with the third jab hit, the kick, and he would insta punish you because the attack has too much hit lag.
I don't think you've done this before, but I just wanted to know if you thought about jab canceling for shield pressure. It's what Hugo does to spam jab on shield as Samus, because we have the same problem, second hit from Samus's jab sucks on shield.
jab->crouch->jab repeat
or the more efficient
Hold control stick 45 degrees down and away from the direction you're facing, jab jab jab jab jab
Whichever, I think might be a good tool to have, since you love to punish off of a jab hit confirm.
Catch you at KoC.
Shroomed
Smash Master
I've determined two things from that tournament. I will be able to beat Zac next time for sure, and no more partaking in "activities" at the tournament.
I want to **** Apex so I need to put my old game face back on.
Idk if Doc has a jab cancel that actually shield pressures.
I want to **** Apex so I need to put my old game face back on.
Idk if Doc has a jab cancel that actually shield pressures.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Doc's jab is fast and relatively strong (at low percents) but also laggy. If they herp derp it's free **** but if they know this then they can combo break it with a bunch of characters; I jumped or crouched into stuff on like a bazillion of your jab d-smashes. That said, you got me with enough to warrant using it and it's not bad, especially vs FFers and characters with tiny DJs.
I don't think on paper his jab does anything vs a shield but nobody knows the Doc MU yet so ride that while you can.
On a side note, grabbing shields is the best shield pressure. IIRC you said my grabbiness threw you off. I dunno why you couldn't learn to max-range grabs with Doc (though it admittedly wouldn't be as good). I get jab has more range but if you're in range for grab too I think skipping the middle man is underrated (since you're either jabbing into d-smash or grab).
Doc needs Sheik's jab specs IMO.
WumpaWolfy
Smash Cadet
Sometimes I dream that docs grab is as long as his ledge grab range...
Scidadle
Smash Champion
So. I'm terrrrrible vs falco. I just have no idea what to ****in do. Like... I don't even know what I'm doing wrong. I just suck vs him.
boss8
Smash Hero
yea...im slowly getting past the falco stage....
gotta play patient and punish hard AF...
gotta play patient and punish hard AF...
Scidadle
Smash Champion
I just get ***** by dair and lazers
WumpaWolfy
Smash Cadet
Ya me too, I keep getting trapped in my shield and pillar combo'ed. Been experimenting with light shielding and it helps, but the pressure makes my game fall apart. Maybe I'm too predictable with my aerials and WD's OOS but they always seem to get punished. How often do you guys willingly eat a laser in order to punish? I have a bad habit of trying to shield every projectile that comes my way.
Max?
Smash Champion
I try to stay at a diagonal from Falco when he's far away. In conjunction with pills and the cape, it makes his SHL less effective. Since he isn't ridiculously fast, he will have to work a bit to get over to you.
Don't panic when you're getting shield pressured. Make it a priority to get away (WD oos/buffer roll), but don't be afraid to mix in the occasional usmash/upb oos, aerial oos, or even shield grab if you see it.
Work on maximizing your punishes, get him offstage asap and make your edgeguards count. Work on your DI so he doesn't get free 60% combos on you. With good DI, he can't get a lot on you from a hit, tho he will get positional advantage from a launch.
The big thing to remember is this. Most Falcos are ****ing terrible, and rely on the fact their character is a god. This applies to some bigger names as well. Take advantage of this. A lot of Falcos (spacies in general) have really bad DI, and don't know wtf a mix up is.
A few more things I just remembered.
Don't jump wrecklessly into him with moves. Utilt and bair will stuff you clean. If you're grounded, your CC beats utilt. If he's platform camping and/or bair camping, DD and throw pills and be patient. DO NOT jump into the ****. You got 8 minutes on the timer.
With proper pill and cape usage, you can really annoy a Falco who spams lasers. His actual approach game is pretty mediocre without lasers, so if you can nullify them you can start getting some nice dd pivot grabs and ****. Look at my recent set vs. Stric
Pokes are good. WD ftilt/jab are solid (look out for CC shine against the jab), ftilt in general, utilt, dsmash, bair, uair, etc A lot of these moves cause knockdowns which set up ****.
Don't panic when you're getting shield pressured. Make it a priority to get away (WD oos/buffer roll), but don't be afraid to mix in the occasional usmash/upb oos, aerial oos, or even shield grab if you see it.
Work on maximizing your punishes, get him offstage asap and make your edgeguards count. Work on your DI so he doesn't get free 60% combos on you. With good DI, he can't get a lot on you from a hit, tho he will get positional advantage from a launch.
The big thing to remember is this. Most Falcos are ****ing terrible, and rely on the fact their character is a god. This applies to some bigger names as well. Take advantage of this. A lot of Falcos (spacies in general) have really bad DI, and don't know wtf a mix up is.
A few more things I just remembered.
Don't jump wrecklessly into him with moves. Utilt and bair will stuff you clean. If you're grounded, your CC beats utilt. If he's platform camping and/or bair camping, DD and throw pills and be patient. DO NOT jump into the ****. You got 8 minutes on the timer.
With proper pill and cape usage, you can really annoy a Falco who spams lasers. His actual approach game is pretty mediocre without lasers, so if you can nullify them you can start getting some nice dd pivot grabs and ****. Look at my recent set vs. Stric
Pokes are good. WD ftilt/jab are solid (look out for CC shine against the jab), ftilt in general, utilt, dsmash, bair, uair, etc A lot of these moves cause knockdowns which set up ****.
Svetsunov
Smash Apprentice
Does anybody have any extra tips for the Marth matchup? It seems to be going better for me since i've started using Ftilt and Uair more. His grab range is ridiculous though.
Max?
Smash Champion
Recent Shroomed vs. PewPewU matches are a really good example of what to do.
onionchowder
Smash Journeyman
To add to the Doc v. Falco discussion;
Light shielding is really nice for getting out of shield pressure, or when pressured on a platform. Doc will slide out of Falco's range if he hits your shield with attacks, and Falco's grabs are not very scary. Also, up-B OoS onto the top platform of Yoshi's or Fountain is really nice; it's a relatively safe way to break shield pressure, and you can get tech-chases out of it. Don't rely on it too much, since it is very punishable when baited.
I'm a fan of short hop -> cape -> waveland when trying to cape. It gives you a decision point; you can choose (after seeing whether the cape connects or not) whether to waveland forward or backward.
Against Marth, one trick I've found is try to clash dash-attack into Fsmash/Ftilt/Jab. Often Marth will be surprised and not react quickly, and you can land a Dsmash or Ftilt or something.
Light shielding is really nice for getting out of shield pressure, or when pressured on a platform. Doc will slide out of Falco's range if he hits your shield with attacks, and Falco's grabs are not very scary. Also, up-B OoS onto the top platform of Yoshi's or Fountain is really nice; it's a relatively safe way to break shield pressure, and you can get tech-chases out of it. Don't rely on it too much, since it is very punishable when baited.
I'm a fan of short hop -> cape -> waveland when trying to cape. It gives you a decision point; you can choose (after seeing whether the cape connects or not) whether to waveland forward or backward.
Against Marth, one trick I've found is try to clash dash-attack into Fsmash/Ftilt/Jab. Often Marth will be surprised and not react quickly, and you can land a Dsmash or Ftilt or something.
Svetsunov
Smash Apprentice
Wow can't believe I forgot about these... especially since I saw these matches live.
Thanks!