Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

[BigWenz]

yo can u actually chaingrab ganondorf with downthrow? i was doing it to my friends ganon, its not very good but still i was wondering does that actually work or was his DI just ***?

 

[SmashMac]

If anyone at your skill level or above knows how to play Doc. and plays a higher tier character, unless you know the match-up very well, it's like 25% in your favor. Doc. is limited. The only reason he's good is 'cause the unlikely-hood of his opponent actually knowing the match-up against him as well as you know it against them. For example, play a fox player that doesn't know the Doc. match-up. Then play RockCrock. RockCrock doesn't even main Fox anymore, but he knows the match-up though, in which case you're probably gonna get demolished. You only stand a chance if you know how to play against Fox on an expert level, and even then it's probably 50/50.

With that being said, I'd like to go to Genesis, but I'm not sure it's worth all my tax-return money ...

yo can u actually chaingrab ganondorf with downthrow? i was doing it to my friends ganon, its not very good but still i was wondering does that actually work or was his DI just ***?

Yes you can CG ganon a bit from about 10% - about 25% but if his DI is up and away to the dthrow he can get away by DJing.

 

[Max?]

I play with people that know how to fight Doc all the time and win.... idk guys. Make johns all you want, don't use Doc if you think he's bad.

 

[SmashMac]

I play with people that know how to fight Doc all the time and win.... idk guys. Make johns all you want, don't use Doc if you think he's bad.

Are the people you play that know the match-up at least as good as you? Do they place the same as you do? If they don't, then that is not a good comparison. The argument is this:

If they're at least as good as you and know the match-up with a higher tier character, it's a more difficult win for Doc.

The tier-list is the standard here. Until more players show up and place higher with Doc., it'll stay the same. I'm not saying he's bad. You just gotta know your limits so you can advance in other things or make what you have better.

 

[Max?]

I play with PC Chris, Hax and Niko as my main source of practice. You tell me?

 

[Niko45]

I've seen OTG go in on the best players our region has to offer. Doc can definitely get off.

I agree in general with the idea that if you don't believe your character (no matter which character it is) has a legitimate shot to win then don't play that character. No reason to continue playing a character you don't expect to win with unless you're just looking for excuses.

 

[T-Cash]

doc gets off but hes gets *****... i love doc but a high levels of gameplay its almost like waiting for a gimp or grab ...hes really hard to rely on but when u can get on someones *** with some grab combos doc ***** ...fox ,captain etc

doc like neva has the advantage i play him cause i love to work for the win=D

 

[Max?]

As a rule of thumb, I base my gameplan around NOT relying on grabs. I think thats a big reason why a lot of Doc's get *****, they are too scared to do other things because they are like "omg fox/anyone above him/etc is amazing, I can't throw out something or else I'll get ***** because they are better than me!" As a result, the grabs rarely come and even when they do you probably dont punish as hard as you could because you're so mind****ed.

Realistically, you gotta go in, and just **** people. I get more grabs now than I did when I was actively looking for them. Putting pressure on people and keeping in there face will make them mess up, or more likely to put them in a bad position which you can capitalize on.


IDK, if people keep johning about Doc imma get mad. He is not bad at all.

 

[Strong Badam]

applying pressure is the best way to create an opening for a grab/whatever.
your second paragraph is very similar to how my playstyle has changed as DK in the past year or so.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I think Doc stands toe-to-toe with the best characters in the game. Not in the sense that match-ups are even-ish, but in the sense that Doc has legit answers/options for whatever it is that they do.

*shrugs.*

He's not bad.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Strong Badam]

high level play is a lot more about the player than the character in most cases unless one of the players just doesn't know the match-up.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

high level play is a lot more about the player than the character in most cases unless one of the players just doesn't know the match-up.

I agree with this one hundred percent, Strong Bad. High level play separates the good from the bad by virtue of players and players alone.

I was just saying that Doc isn't as bad mechanically-speaking as, say, Kirby. Or as limited. I look at characters kinda like a tool box: You have your tools, that's it, and you have to use what's available to you. I think Doc has a lot of good tools that help him out in match-ups (great gimping game, chain throw on spacies, etc). While I agree that players > character mechanics every time, one has to remember that the really good players are good not only because they're good but because they know how to use the tools available to them.

I'm not trying to be contradictory, or even contrary. I do agree with you, it's just I think Doc (as a character) is a little bit better than what people are giving him credit for.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Max?]

Strongbad, it must be so hard to fight people heads up as DK tho. His moveset sans bair/uair/upB/grab is terrible. Dair/Dtilt/Ftilt get nods for being jank, thats about it tho

@ Smooth:

I think that Doc has a lot of really awesome things that are going for him that are typically overlooked by the community... sorta how people disregarded a lot of Jigglys strengths back when people thought she was bad. I'm by no means claiming that Doc has tools like Jiggs that would allow him to become amazing, his placement in the tier list is correct imo. Just that he definitely has awesome tools that people tend to overlook because he isn't your typical top tier.

A few I can think of off the top of my head: Insanely disjointed sweetspot range by the edge, some of the fastest standing moves in the game, the jank that is usmash. I could go on.

 

[Shroomed]

I used to think like you guys, then PP shoved my face in the dirt and I cried =(.

I'm not saying you can't win with Doc obviously, just that our cap is lower than other peoples' simply because of our character.

 

[Max?]

You ever take into account that PP is way better than you? And that there are like 0 good Falcos in NorCal?

 

[SmashMac]

It's good to believe in your character. I main Doc. for years now and the "believe in yourself" mindset always helps. The point is that knowing your limits helps you improve on what you do have. Denying your limits is just ignorant. You can go against a same-level/higher-level opponent using a higher tier character and still have a chance at winning but you gotta play perfect. No johns intended but I'm going by my observations and other top players' input.

 

[Max?]

Ugh, so much fakeness.


Alright, you guys keep johning and talking about how you only have a 25% chance of beating higher tiered characters at the same skill level or whatever other arbitrary BS nonsense you wanna throw out there for why you guys dont place. I'll be out actually playing this game with good people and improving in the meantime if you guys want to talk about something relevant.

 

[T-Cash]

Ugh, so much fakeness.


Alright, you guys keep johning and talking about how you only have a 25% chance of beating higher tiered characters at the same skill level or whatever other arbitrary BS nonsense you wanna throw out there for why you guys dont place. I'll be out actually playing this game with good people and improving in the meantime if you guys want to talk about something relevant.

lol .... i think thats the goal of all of us we all go to tourney and play people on a high skill level... were not so much downing our character as accepting his weaknesses .... I go to tourneys and play doc everytime cause i love him as a character i dont ever john about placing cause i go for the experience=p

It really suckz when i feel im being spaced out because as a doc main i usually try to space people and sometimes i just get out smarted and feel like i cnt move and thats my prob.... to change the subject=p

 

[Beat!]

otg with the real talk

 

[T-Cash]

You ever take into account that PP is way better than you? And that there are like 0 good Falcos in NorCal?

Ur Buggin ..... i think shroomed can handle that better than anyone ...

dont get me wrong ....DOC IS **** thats why i play him i love him ...

but when playing high skill lvl players i think doc lacs some things.... im really aggresive when i play doc to and i got alot character matchups drilled.... but everyone knows what docs good at ... gimping... its so hard to do what u have to do against top players.. that leaves doc in the option to do 2 things ... space throw pills, grab, and WD dsmash.. or you run around and spit out aerials that leave u open and u get ***** ....

i love the situations i get put in and thinking about how to get out of them but sometimes ... it just makes u wanna pick someone else like ive been picking up 3 more tourney characters so my doc doesnt get to predicatable=l the things i do for my character

 

[Max?]

Ur Buggin ..... i think shroomed can handle that better than anyone ...

dont get me wrong ....DOC IS **** thats why i play him i love him ...

but when playing high skill lvl players i think doc lacs some things.... im really aggresive when i play doc to and i got alot character matchups drilled.... but everyone knows what docs good at ... gimping... its so hard to do what u have to do against top players.. that leaves doc in the option to do 2 things ... space throw pills, grab, and WD dsmash.. or you run around and spit out aerials that leave u open and u get ***** ....

i love the situations i get put in and thinking about how to get out of them but sometimes ... it just makes u wanna pick someone else like ive been picking up 3 more tourney characters so my doc doesnt get to predicatable=l the things i do for my character

WOW. I really don't know what to say.

It suddenly makes sense why there are so few good Docs.

 

[Niko45]

I used to think like you guys, then PP shoved my face in the dirt and I cried =(.

I'm not saying you can't win with Doc obviously, just that our cap is lower than other peoples' simply because of our character.

Ur trolling. Or johning. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt tho. You of all people have taken Doc further than anyone and ***** lots of good players with him. You just gotta step it up and take it to that next level if you want to be an S-tier player.

It's very hard to beat high level players with any character. You gotta put your egos aside and not have the mentality that you are good enough but doc isn't.

Peach players for example used to make these same arguments before Armada came through and proved that it was total bull****. It's not that Peach is underrated on the tier list but when it comes to being a great player your character is only viable or non-viable. Doc players don't have an Armada yet but that doesn't mean there will never be one and there are a couple of docs who have top level breakout potential, so we'll see what happens.

 

[Shroomed]

Ur trolling. Or johning. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt tho. You of all people have taken Doc further than anyone and ***** lots of good players with him. You just gotta step it up and take it to that next level if you want to be an S-tier player.

It's very hard to beat high level players with any character. You gotta put your egos aside and not have the mentality that you are good enough but doc isn't.

Peach players for example used to make these same arguments before Armada came through and proved that it was total bull****. It's not that Peach is underrated on the tier list but when it comes to being a great player your character is only viable or non-viable. Doc players don't have an Armada yet but that doesn't mean there will never be one and there are a couple of docs who have top level breakout potential, so we'll see what happens.

Oh I wasn't saying that I lost to PP because I was Doc, you misunderstood. I'm saying moreso that the vast number of options that characters like falco/fox/etc have clearly outshine Doc's. I agree that you can win with any character given enough skill, but I think you literally have to be a little better or smarter or w/e than your opponent to win with Doc. And I'm almost to Doc's Armada level, hopefully Genesis will confirm that. Top 5 or bust.

I'm CLOSE to S-tier, hopefully I'll cross that bridge soon enough.

 

[Max?]

lol Shroomed. I love your ego.

 

[Shroomed]

lol Shroomed. I love your ego.

Bro, this is my tuned down version as to not come off as an ***hole on the boards ROFL.

You should meet me in person, Norcal knows.
I'm going to tear **** up at Genesis 2 for sure though. Going to get some falco practice in.

 

[Max?]

Dude, son if you meet me in person you would know I'm the same way. If anything I respect it, it's definitely a big reason why you're ****. Mentality is a gigantic portion of this game, Idgaf what anyone says.

 

[Shroomed]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=85627&page=411

Norcal knows the ****, and I want to travel more to show other regions the ****!

I want to try to get a Good Player Fund going for me, but it seems you need to be S-tier already. Although I don't consider Jman to be much better than me, and we got him out here. Organize one for me you East Coast people!!!!! <3

I can't help my cockiness/arrogance or whatever. I flaunt the fact that I **** LOL

(this post seems SOOOO douchey, oh well IDGAF lol)

 

[Strong Badam]

Strongbad, it must be so hard to fight people heads up as DK tho. His moveset sans bair/uair/upB/grab is terrible. Dair/Dtilt/Ftilt get nods for being jank, thats about it tho

yeah he isn't a good character but it's whatever if I cared I wouldn't use him.

Ugh, so much fakeness.


Alright, you guys keep johning and talking about how you only have a 25% chance of beating higher tiered characters at the same skill level or whatever other arbitrary BS nonsense you wanna throw out there for why you guys dont place. I'll be out actually playing this game with good people and improving in the meantime if you guys want to talk about something relevant.

jesus christ, this. couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[CaptainNanD0]

yo guys otg swears he's good cause he beats people in FRIENDLIES

he says ''i always place top 10 at least at every local''

wow an EC local has like 17 ppl all you have to do is win like 2 matches vs scrubs

that's REALLY hard.... top 5 is impressive but otg never gets that and never will

when the players there are eggm/hax/chops/jman/swift

and he does not go even with hax ill get hax up in here and make him feel stupid

im just tired of him talking all this smack on me so **** that fake *****

btw DJ's doc is way better DIP

 

[Max?]

Wow Nando, you mad? While I admittedly do not go out to tournies that often, the tournies I attend have good turnouts. The last 3 I went to had 40+ people, and I placed 7th, 7th, and 9th respectively at them. I'll gladly bust out results if you REALLY give a **** that much. I've also never said that I was a top player in Tristate, I'm just on the rise and am improving exponentially. I hope to prove it soon.

As for Aziz, I never said that I go even with him. I said that I felt I could if I'm playing well and make adjustments. I do not think my estimation of us going 60/40 is wrong, maybe he would disagree? tho I doubt he gives a **** since we're homies first, and competitors second.

And iirc, DJ doesn't even use Doc in tourney anymore. Last time I heard/saw him using him was against Hbox last summer. Based on tourney sets I've seen against him vs. $mike's Falcon, I dont think his Doc is better than mine at all, I did infinitely better vs. him and only lost because I like to SD at 0% when it counts.

For the record, I've beaten Nando EVERYTIME it's counted, but that kid is **** and is probably a better player than me.

 

[DJ Nintendo]

Wow Nando, you mad? While I admittedly do not go out to tournies that often, the tournies I attend have good turnouts. The last 3 I went to had 40+ people, and I placed 7th, 7th, and 9th respectively at them. I'll gladly bust out results if you REALLY give a **** that much. I've also never said that I was a top player in Tristate, I'm just on the rise and am improving exponentially. I hope to prove it soon.

As for Aziz, I never said that I go even with him. I said that I felt I could if I'm playing well and make adjustments. I do not think my estimation of us going 60/40 is wrong, maybe he would disagree? tho I doubt he gives a **** since we're homies first, and competitors second.

And iirc, DJ doesn't even use Doc in tourney anymore. Last time I heard/saw him using him was against Hbox last summer. Based on tourney sets I've seen against him vs. $mike's Falcon, I dont think his Doc is better than mine at all, I did infinitely better vs. him and only lost because I like to SD at 0% when it counts.

For the record, I've beaten Nando EVERYTIME it's counted, but that kid is **** and is probably a better player than me.

You have the dumbest logic ever and need to get your facts straight. I still use Doc till this day. The last time I used Doc was at Pound 5. Without me using Doc there, I don't think I would've made it to bracket. I always use Doc for specific character matchups and/or depending on the person I'm playing against. As for my first time set against $Mike, even though I didn't play that well, he's a real good player and he capitalized on all my mistakes and beat my Samus and Mario. I didn't even go Doc on him. So I have no idea how you compare our Docs with one set against someone that I didn't even use Doc on. My Doc has always been better than yours and you've never surpassed me. I'm not saying your Doc isn't good but your Doc isn't better than mine.

 

[Shroomed]

You guys should ask swift how our matches went (I TAPPED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
I need to play aziz in tourney so I can **** his **** (<3 aziz)

My doc is better than all of yours so suck it! <3

/thread

 

[Max?]

DJ you have no idea how good I've gotten, you haven't played me in over a year now. I know you use Doc, but you do not main him, and that is different. Shroomed is the best, no argument there.

 

[CaptainNanD0]

shroomed i didnt know you were a beast drummer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7-Eey73ank#t=1m50s

 

[DJ Nintendo]

DJ you have no idea how good I've gotten, you haven't played me in over a year now. I know you use Doc, but you do not main him, and that is different. Shroomed is the best, no argument there.

Thats whats up you've gotten better. Even though I don't MAIN doc, he's one of my primary secondaries. I could easily just start using him again as my main if I wanted to just like that. I just have more fun with other characters.

 

[Shroomed]

shroomed i didnt know you were a beast drummer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7-Eey73ank#t=1m50s

***** I go hard! lol

The #3 dude was actually pretty beast.

 

[Max?]

Thats whats up you've gotten better. Even though I don't MAIN doc, he's one of my primary secondaries. I could easily just start using him again as my main if I wanted to just like that. I just have more fun with other characters.

Son you SHOULD main him. I've definitely gone through phases where I had no fun playing Doc, but right now I'm loving him and I can't stop having fun. There are so many Doc mains in the area, we gotta show em how its done

 

[DJ Nintendo]

Son you SHOULD main him. I've definitely gone through phases where I had no fun playing Doc, but right now I'm loving him and I can't stop having fun. There are so many Doc mains in the area, we gotta show em how its done

I'll think about it.

 

[HomeMadeWaffles]

I been in this game for years, it made me a animal
It's rules to this ****, I wrote me a manual

 

[boss8]

why *****s arguing over who has da better doc n shiz...shouldnt we be helping eachother **** ****?