Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

[MaDWaK]

does doc vs spacies have to feel like their running all over me and I have to try and patiently counter them? even when I get a legit win vs a decent fox/falco player I feel like it could have EASILY gone the other way around. I guess I gotta step my movement game up.

I ****ing love that match-up for the gimps though lol.

 

[ranmaru]

Yeah I think you are supposed to work super hard to beat them. Or maybe you could work super smart, hahaha. Thats what one of my managers told me, makes sense. ;p

 

[Angrylobster]

My first (real) tourney ever, i got 2nd seed in my pools, losing out to dmac. Then I was lost first game in winners bracket, beat two people in losers and then lost to Dmac AGAIN, putting me out.

My first real tourney was MLG Orlando.

My first ACTUAL tourney was a scrub tourney on my college campus, where they wanted to use tourney mode and everything. I specifically remember semi finals was me 4stocking a samus on brinstar depths, and finals was me 4 stocking a peach on peach's castle.

Are you talkin about mlg orlando 05 or 06? MLG orlando 05 was my first tourney, although I was at mlg orlando 06 as well, good times!

 

[Shroomed]

Um... it IS slow. But it gets its benefit from having inv.

If you don't so, go find a spanimal who's good at multishining (so go pull DSW off the dancefloor), let said spanimal stand right on your shield and start mashing, and see how many times you upsmash oos.

0.

Priority does not always equal speed. >.>

of course it doesnt work on multishining lol

one frame moves always win

 

[Dogysamich]

you kinda gotta jump to multishine there, buddy. XD

 

[HomeMadeWaffles]

is there anyway doc can approach with n-air without getting sheild grabbed?

like how fox can nair shine

or falcon can knee then gentlemen to aviod the sheild grab

the only thing i can think of is nair and do those doc kicks once i hit the ground

 

[Shroomed]

u cant nair jab? thats wut i do

uair jab is really good too

 

[HomeMadeWaffles]

u cant nair jab? thats wut i do

uair jab is really good too

prolly

i mite do that without thinking

i asked cuz i dont know how to approach jeff

and all he does is wait for me to nair so he can sheild grab

and i dont know how to aviod it

maybe i should switch it up hahaa.....

 

[Shroomed]

full hop dairs brandon!

and some uair approaches too

or jus run up and grab if he shields a lot

 

[Vulcan55]

Now you know that those "invincible" spanimals you've been talking about look like they're going to be few and far between. Because they are.

Here in WA, we have like... Peaches and M2s and ****.
****.
that.

Also, speaking of D-air:
I wish Luigi still played like his 64 counterpart.
Super Drill > |: U-air :|* > SHORYUKEN

*Musical notation

 

[Dogysamich]

is there anyway doc can approach with n-air without getting sheild grabbed?

like how fox can nair shine

or falcon can knee then gentlemen to aviod the sheild grab

the only thing i can think of is nair and do those doc kicks once i hit the ground

low n.airs or meaty n.airs. Low is 10x better. Realistically, this is a reason why you shouldn't be coming in with a n.air too often, especially if the end result is you landing in front of a maa****er.

Welcome to midtier. XD

Here in WA, we have like... Peaches and M2s and ****.
****.

M2s? You know some funny **** you can do to m2s? Throw a ****load of f.airs when they're not n.airing, and watch their tails get clipped.

It's sad.

 

[otg]

On a side note, really low uair -> dsmash is amazing.

 

[Shroomed]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7HkePfcIvw&feature=sub

watch the first match, then the second

first match i full hop air dodged at 3:43 for no reason and died cuz of it =(

WTF HAPPENED IN BETWEEN THOSE MATCHES? lol

 

[HomeMadeWaffles]

im not gonna lie

you got whooped that 2nd game

i think i should post in here more

but i dont really have anything to say so i dont see the point hahahaa

hey dajuan u down still to team this weekend?

cuz thats like the only thing keeping me going this weekend

 

[boss8]

he might tell you yes then team with some one else watch out brandon...

 

[VGmasta]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7HkePfcIvw&feature=sub

watch the first match, then the second

first match i full hop air dodged at 3:43 for no reason and died cuz of it =(

WTF HAPPENED IN BETWEEN THOSE MATCHES? lol

I'm convinced that Ganon is advantaged on certain stages. Because Ganon can d-air a platform your standing under and combo with it and it's hard to outspace Ganon on such small stages. Fountain of Dreams (FoD) and Yoshi's Story are absurdly in Ganon's favor.

Well here's WTF happened in between those matches:
Kage just looked like he was more successful with reading/edgeguarding you in between the first and second match. Like you tried some jab combo starters when Kage was open a few times, but Kage just kinda spotdodged/sheilded/airdodged/jumped his way around it. In those situations, you probably wanna just go straight for grabbing.

Kage also undoubtedly caught on to a lot of your air jumping. You kinda have to pick and choose carefully when to space attacks from the ground and when to try to intercept Ganon in the air. Ganon's air game is far better than Doc's air game.

The momentum was better for you in the first match as well, you started off winning and it was kinda close all the way. During the second match, momentum looked shifted because of the start of the match.

But overall, smaller stage = much easier victory for Ganon. Because you have no where to go when you are getting outspaced. You can't run anywhere to try to outspace Ganon except the edge. you only have three options from there:
1) through the air (yikes)
2) just straight into him (uh oh )
3) or grab ledge. ()
See how scary all three options are.
Options 1 and 2 are covered easily by a Ganon that just spaces attacks from Doc's rolling distance. Option 3 is risky as hell.

I'd just counterpick a bigger stage like Dreamland, Final D. (Ganons usually ban this stage vs. Doc anyway), or PokeStadium.

All I can suggest is to try to find more effective ways to make openings. Doc can throw pills in place to see how Ganon like to deal with them. Be watchful of doing FH pills into Ganon since Doc is open during the pill throwing animation. Also be very careful about wasting your air jump right away. Doc can die from Ganon at ANY percent whenever Ganon attacks Doc in the air and follows up. (5:07-5:11 was a close call).

Everything else is just up to you as far as deciding on when to approach/retreat, which is tougher for ME on smaller stages. I love posting about Doc vs. Ganon stuff b'cuz I get to use my lame signature .

 

[Shroomed]

The funniest thing is, I hate FOD

I ban it vs spacies, sheik, marth lol
iono why I took him there, but it was a learning experience

n yea brandon, I'm down

n sorry Boss, blame Alan!

 

[Dogysamich]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7HkePfcIvw&feature=sub

watch the first match, then the second

first match i full hop air dodged at 3:43 for no reason and died cuz of it =(

WTF HAPPENED IN BETWEEN THOSE MATCHES? lol

I watched 20 seconds of the first match, and this is just more proof to my theory that west coast is pringles to ganon and probably alot of other good _______'s.

I can already tell you that you're spacing too **** close. I'd go as far as to say you're playing the matchup wrong, but it's personal preference.

*watches more* ... how the **** does kage NOT know to reverse up+b.

I'm watching more, and I see you throwing pills at like, ridiculously close range. Like, realistically, you should be getting punished for hitting people will pills that close. I could go more into that, but meh.

Realistically, from what I'm seeing, you're usually too close doing stuff. Like, you want to stand a character away, throw a pill, and wonder why you get punched in the face (a character away includes in the air. So far, he's f.aired you one time, and realistically you set him up so you can u.air you for it.)

You pay absolutely no respect for him being on the top platform, and in all actuality that is one of the things you absolutely MUST respect vs ganon. You like DDing around .... and NOT being by the ledge, and wonder why you get hit with the Batman B.air. XD

If and when you do get in on him, you're really not keeping any pressure whatsoever. It's like, you'll tag him with something, if it's big kool, if not, you let him slide away. If you get a grab, you tend to throw him away (No chaingrabs? I personally know Kage is pringles to some doc chaingrabs, and I JUST saw you u.throw a ganon. Only reason you really have to do that is like, 30-45%, and even then, I'd say the only reason you'd have to do it is if you're greenmario. XD)

big key point here: Here's one big thing you're missing about ganon, and then just missing about your match vs kage. You keep expecting him to be on the ground (by way of d.smashes) and he's not. Ganon doesn't want to be on the ground unless he can do something you can't outrange (jabs, f.tilts, and d.tilts. Obviously a grab every now and then). Up until this point (1:42), I honestly dont think I remember seeing Kage throw a jab or d.tilt, and the f.tilts I do remember him throwing have been correct. So you really shouldn't be fishing so hard for d.smashes, he's not even going to be there. You gotta get in there and keep SHFFL'n u.airs, FH d.airs, various b.airs and all that, and coax him to STAY on the ground.

Oh, and your recovery. You got that old school Dogy logic that lambchops pointed out to me while he was here. You always come in. You do it, HMW does it, I used to do it, alot of Docs do it by default. It's cause Doc's recovery is horrible, so you always feel the need to come in. Watch some DJN. It sucks, because you're reading this, and if you think about it, you'll be saying "BUt I have to come in, or else my only option is to sweetspot." Yup, welcome to a s***ty recovery, it's either that or keep getting picked off for making telegraphed recoveries like you did around 1:46.

*watches more bad pill spacing/positioning*. Like, lets be real. If you're on a platform, and your opponent is on your half of the stage, you shouldn't be throwing pills. I'm not blasting you specifically cause I do the same ****, but seriously; stop and look at what's happening. You throw pills, Kage's right there, you get u.aired. He wasn't going to run away, he doens't need to. You need to ****in move off the platform.

Chaingrabs to a no-step forwardsmash? Lol. If you take your chaingrab for all it's worth (which is more than 40%) you've got enough time to walk and f.smash. If you don't have faith in that, u.air -> d.smash ( or u.air -> f.smash if you expect them to DI the u.air in, or u.air -> regrab. Or other gimmicks. )

Aaaaaaand yes, kage reads your recovery AGAIN and does a reverse u.air.

-watches kage roll on the stage- *Thinks to self* "Oh, I cant wait to start catchin people with that stupid *** trick." ^_^

So, you did a right thing, threw a pill and did a DD Dash attack, probably expecting him to jump (or i hope you were expecting him to jump). And you got punished. Matchup advice: if you space the dash attack EITHER way from what you did (so jack it up more, or hit with the tips of your feet) ganon can't grab you for it.

lol, you tried to roll in on ganon.

Recovery again. Lol, you said that airddoge was random. It was instinct, cause you got punished EVERY TIME YOU CAME IN AND STILL THREW PILLS.

Go back and watch if you don't believe me. That was a subconscious airdodge.

-watches more- ... Oh THAT airdodge. .... lol ***** wtf were you doing? XD

___

So the answer to your question. "What happened game 2?"

Well, at this point, I'll pretend like I'm kage and pretend I assume these things.

1) When you recover, you always slam in, regardless of what I'm doing.
2) You are liable to throwing pills jacked up in my face.
3) You expect me to be on the ground ALOT.
4) You pay little to no respect to me on a platform. (I personally would say "If I see you dash dancing, you're not paying any real attention to what I'm doing", but anytime I BLATANTLY saw you DD was when he was on the top platform.
5) I think that you will NEVER come up on the edge of the ledge. (Not so much the taboo you'll ALWAYS waveland, but I think that just standing up or ledgehopping to the edge is NOT one of your options, meaning I can throw a f.air or u.air and cover like... all of it)

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand lets see what happens.

*Watches CP*..... ***** what? XD If he banned FD against you, I'd like to go on record and say I had absolutely nothing to do with it.

Aight, so I just watched you airdodge to you death (hey guess what you were trying to do? Waveland onto the stage. XD), and I notice that you've gotten hit by alot of "The ganon matchup" stuff. Everybody jokes and says "Ganon is so busted, he only needs to hit you 3 times and you're dead." but the irony is there's truth to that.

My point in all this is, you keep putting yourself in positions to where he can hit you. Yeah, the first few hits were CC somethings, and that's a minor strategy flaw, but then what happened? He's above you on a top platform, and you want to spotdodge? Got d.aired for it. Then you want to hang out an u.smash in hopes of beating something of GANON's? Got your f.aired. What I'm tryin to say is that you need to think more compact. Short bursts. Don't hang out big stuff. It's not like he has to hit you, and then follow up 3 or 4 times. He takes 1 and he's happy if he gets a second or third.

In your defense, I'll admit that 2 weeks ago when I went to a tourney, I definitely got u.air juggled, 0-gimp, by a ganon. Southern Ganons are on that ****.

MOVING ON!

So you drop down on stock 2.

You knock him up and.... ... ugh... you're gunna CC ganon? ***** really? ***** REALLY? There is literally no move in ganon's arsenal that you gain any REAL benefit from CCing (CCing assuming you intend to take the hit and punish). If you were trying to duck something, that's fine in theory, but you're not going to duck a f.air, and if he wanted to d.air you through that platform, it was going to happen. But I hope you weren't trying to CC ganon.

Ganon d.throw -> u.smash. I'm not going to ask what happened with the DI, but I'll defend you for getting hit with that u.smash. I'd bet money that he meant to u.air and forgot (didn't think about) doc's weight.

And all that stemmed from? A horribly spaced rising SH b.air. SHBAWD isn't saving you that close.

So you land, and you put your shield up. That's good, especially since he jumped. And then you did a retreating u.air OoS after he tapped your shield. That's good too. ....Now why in God's name did you ROLL IN AGAIN? You're not going to roll in on a competent ganon.

If for nothing else, because he wants to retreating f.air to get away from you. It isn't always a case of him calling your roll as it is he's trying to protect himself from you. Lemme word that differently: You looked at that situation as "Um.. I think he's going to F.air me, lemme roll away from him." Kage might have looked at that situation as "I think he's going to (attack) me, lemme back up." You rolling might not have been on his mind, but Ganon covers that too. You only got jabbed for it, but in all actuality, he could did a retreating f.air instead of an u.air in that situation, and gotten better results.

-sidebar- This n**** in the background is makin me lol so hard

Lets see, you try to come in, you get f.tilted. YOU RECOVER STRAIGHT IN, AND GUESS WHAT? F.air. SO YOU RECOVER STRAIGHT IN AND GUESS WHAT? Reverse u.air.

Ganon d.throw .... n.ai~~ oh god I see what kage was talking about with that n.air. I'm so **** sorry. XD You got put in a hard 50/50 after that n.air, man.

umm, stuff happens stuff happens, he down b's away. Jumps up, f.airs, and then jabs. And you wavedash straight into the jab. If you haven't seen that he's been doing that, know that Ganon's do that, and you pretty much can't beat it. YOU COULD TRY U.SMASH OOS, BUT I KNOW IT'S TOO SLOW . Might be able to u.smash after the jab, although i doubt that'd work if they didn't hang another jab afterwards (in which the timing varies depending on if said ganon can jab cancel or not).

So, you make it to the ledge. And from the ledge you _____________.

Hey, ganon f.air -> jab. That's a new one.

... Well, I was going to skip to the next part, but there's something big happening before the next time you get f.air -> jabbed (which btw, the next time you get hit, you get f.air -> jabbed. XD). Note where Ganon is between these two f.air jabs? He's above you the entire time, whether it's on a platform or f.airing/d.airing. You don't want that. You can't really do anything to Ganon on a platform, part because your jump isn't fast enough, part because your range isn't wide enough, and part because his jump height is excellent when combined with his aerials. So with that being said, this is you keeping yourself in a bad position, one that is ultimately a defensive position. You did right to slide out, but you did wrong when you n.aired back under him, got scared, rolled, and....

... Hey, ganon f.air -> jab. That's a new one.

Oh btw, you tried to spotdodge that f.air. No good unless you know they're not going to follow up after the f.air. (second thought: after having to go back a few times to watch this sequence, I get an idea of why you spotdodged. Low shield)

Good job CCing the jab, though.

.... TOO BAD THAT **** HAPPENED AGAIN. In your defense, though, this situation actually had some variables. Instead of ganon being spaced out on his fair (or zoning is fair, which kage did at times), now what happened is he was jacked up on your shield. You jumped (which any other time WOULD HAVE WORKED, especially since you jumped straight up), but got tagged because ganon is now in your face instead of spaced out.

But hey! You actually didn't come slam in on the recovery, good stuff.

Too bad you got on the ledge and _______. Yup. Got f.tilted for it.

Annnd poorly spaced pill = punch in the face.

Ok, so you came back, got kage off the stage. Just for a general player note, notice where Kage recovered to? It wasn't as far in as he could have gone. He took what space you gave him. (Took his real estate) In response to this, you overcommited and tried to f.air him, calling him coming all the way in.

Second thing I want you to note, which is important to the matchup, notice HOW he approached you. You DDed around (waiting or baiting what, I don't know. He's winning anyway), and he took the high road and came in at you. Now, you did an acceptable thing in trying to FH U.air him, but you realistically could have STOPPED (or made that hard on him) if you had a pill game.

For the sake of the match, what's important to know at this point is that Kage has closed the distance (killing the pill game you DONT have), and is now trying to pick you off from a his safest distance.

Stuff happens, you get a grab, go for a dunk (you got for your lebron XD) Aaaaand kage remembers me telling him about slight behind. Heck, he really didn't do it enough, you coulda hit him with a neutral jump -> fade back (correct answer would have been a retreating jump). Relax with your dunks. At that % (on ganon, and that weight range) you have time to size it up. I personally wanna say you need to work on hitting the backside, but I don't know when and how you practice.

..... lol, then you bit on that stupid *** kage setup (fall through platform -> rejump). I don't think you've seen it at this point, so you're not at fault for this. You bit hard as **** though,

And on man that shoulda been your *** for it. Side-B -> d.air -> misjudged doc's roll distance. He timed you and called your roll recovery in.

So you get a grab and........ and lol, you don't know dunk percents.

Whoever was filming said you should have did b.throw. In all actuality, if you're looking to throw him off, it's your call at that point. If b.throw isn't going to kill (which it doesn't till like, 180%), then you really don't get anything either way. B.throw is obviously easier to react to, meaning you might catch more wrong DIs with f.throw, but f.throw doesn't throw as far. B.throw throws people higher, and you don't want ganon recovering from higher. -shrug- Aside from not knowing that you had ganon in the meat of the dunk range, you didn't do anything wrong.

(Random tip) Seeing as you hit kage twice to for damage, I couldn't audibly hear him breaking out, so you probably could have gotten 3, maybe even 4 hits if you wanted. 90 precent of the smash community can't break +110% in 3 hits even if they tried.

(Stupid gimmick) If you find a person who CAN break out really well, a stupid gimmick you can do (if they fall for it) is to just keep hitting them and coaxing them to break out. It's PHYSICALLY tiring. Iori actually does this with his m2 seeing as m2 u.throw is strong.

BACK TO THE VID.

Kage tricked you off the ledge with an airdodge to the ledge. Kool. No reason to be mad at that beyond it just being a slap in the face.

So, he d.throws you, you land on the platform. Does a quick barrage of moves, you stand there, spotdodging and whatnot. If you're not going to d.smash (or hell, d.tilt) Why in gods name would you want to STAND right there? High risk/low reward. BACK DA F*** UP!

D.air -> Jab. That's actually new. You still can't WAVEDASH in on ganon after he hits your shield. You have to either know he's not going to throw SOMETHING out there, or you just respect, back up (like you should), and go about your business.

... oh and hey, guess what you did on that last recover?

___

So in the end, 4 of my 5 assumptions were "right" (I quote that because you didn't specifically throw pills in his face. Instead, you wound up NOT throwing pill except for recovery, in which they were still poorly spaced)

It'd be one thing if I was seriously reading Kage's mind when I made those assumptions, but realistically I just listed 5 things Ganons look for in general. ANY ganon would have picked up on that (any ganon worth their weight, atleast).

So he pretty much had you figured out by game 2.

I honestly think you hurt yourself with your CP. All things considered, I wonder why you wanted to take him to a SMALLER stage rather than a bigger stage. -nods while thinking- Knowing your personal playstyle, I could take a **** good guess, and that actually drives me up the wall.

__

That's pretty much how I look at it. I could tell you some more, but honestly, I'm tired of looking at this one video and I want to watch some more melee (and some other games).

I might come back to this later. >.>

____
edit: nope, saw this and just had to take it.

I'd just counterpick a bigger stage like Dreamland, Final D. (Ganons usually ban this stage vs. Doc anyway), or PokeStadium.

.

GOD! THIS IS WHY I'M MAD THAT SO MANY YEARS LATER PEOPLE WANNA CHANGE STAGES UP. PEOPLE BAN FD ON ME? TAKE THEIR *** TO CORNERIA (or mute city). But naaaaaaaaaaaa, now I gotta actually work on PS and other stupid ****.

 

[otg]

Yo **** that wall of noise. We need to get to the next page quickly so I don't have to look at that mess.

You could've simply condensed a 12 page word document into like 3 words : stop sucking shroomed.

 

[Shroomed]

that's too big a post for me to muster up the willpower to read

all i know is, no small stages next time

 

[Strong Badam]

i read it.
and the match-up guide
you guys suck.


hmm, that may be why i totally wrecked my all of my friend's chars yesterday w/ Doc.

 

[SmashMac]

is there anyway doc can approach with n-air without getting sheild grabbed?

like how fox can nair shine

or falcon can knee then gentlemen to aviod the sheild grab

the only thing i can think of is nair and do those doc kicks once i hit the ground

Yeah just don't land in front of the opponent. Space the nair past the shield but make sure to quickly SHFFL it so you don't get punished for it or can at least protect yourself from getting punished. It has great uses. One use I can remember is for those characters with garbage shields that leave their head still unprotected.

 

[ETWIST51294]

I haven't seen SmashMac post in a while...

 

[Dogysamich]

Yeah just don't land in front of the opponent. Space the nair past the shield but make sure to quickly SHFFL it so you don't get punished for it or can at least protect yourself from getting punished. It has great uses. One use I can remember is for those characters with garbage shields that leave their head still unprotected.

I haven't seen SmashMac post in a while...

-shoots a random shot in the dark-

B brothers at herb3? XD

 

[Scar]

I thought you guys knew about the auto-cancel on FH -dairs when you fast fall (FF). The FH n-airs autocancel too if you FF. Shroomed wrecked Scar by FH d-airs/n-airs->up-tilt because Scar thought he could attack Doc after the d-air/n-air:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOwaXN2l_50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XeSI57TODU

ask my boy shroomed about how he got 2-0'd EAAAAAAAAASY at r00rfest

3 stocked on yoshi's

***** on FD

sets set is 2-1 scar (1-1 if you don't count tourney LOL)

 

[Shroomed]

ask my boy shroomed about how he got 2-0'd EAAAAAAAAASY at r00rfest

3 stocked on yoshi's

***** on FD

sets set is 2-1 scar (1-1 if you don't count tourney LOL)

LOL

i am going to **** the **** out of you this saturday

 

[otg]

ask my boy shroomed about how he got 2-0'd EAAAAAAAAASY at r00rfest

3 stocked on yoshi's

***** on FD

sets set is 2-1 scar (1-1 if you don't count tourney LOL)

Ugh, this is gay. You're going to come back here and actually know how to fight Doc. That was like the only thing I had goiing for me.

 

[VGmasta]

i read it.
and the match-up guide
you guys suck.


hmm, that may be why i totally wrecked my all of my friend's chars yesterday w/ Doc.

I only read about half of Dogy's post so far.
Strong Bad's friend must not use Marth at all. Or his Marth is not very familiar with the Doc. matchup at all. It's a horribly unfair matchup. All Marth has to do run away and space, space, space against a character with a range level that's at least 5 times shorter than Marth's.

 

[otg]

I only read about half of Dogy's post so far.
Strong Bad's friend must not use Marth at all. Or his Marth is not very familiar with the Doc. matchup at all. It's a horribly unfair matchup. All Marth has to do run away and space, space, space against a character with a range level that's at least 5 times shorter than Marth's.

Recently I don't mind Marth as much as I do other characters. But then again my opinion of whats good and bad shifts more then m2ks.

 

[Strong Badam]

my friend's marth sucks, he only used it once and then decided it was a bad idea.... lol. i played against his falco/sheik/peach/falcon/samus a ton though.

 

[Lixivium]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7HkePfcIvw&feature=sub

watch the first match, then the second

first match i full hop air dodged at 3:43 for no reason and died cuz of it =(

WTF HAPPENED IN BETWEEN THOSE MATCHES? lol

Yeah I tried to use Doc against Ganon last tournament and I got 3-stocked (or maybe it was JV 3-stocked). Counterpicking Sheik makes me feel dirty but I can't win against Ganon otherwise.

 

[ranmaru]

What did the ganon do to you? LOL ganon is one of the characters that I would rather stay on the ground fighting.

 

[Dogysamich]

I mean ****. Doc/Ganon is my favorite matchup with Doc.

It's a fun-as-hell matchup, but you do actually have to play it pretty **** differently than the norm.

(for the record once again, my favorite matchup in the entire game is kirby/ganon)

 

[ranmaru]

My favorite matchup I think is Samus. I don't know why. Its not annoying at all to me (I may be really annoying myself that may be why)

 

[SmashMac]

I mean ****. Doc/Ganon is my favorite matchup with Doc.

It's a fun-as-hell matchup, but you do actually have to play it pretty **** differently than the norm.

(for the record once again, my favorite matchup in the entire game is kirby/ganon)

When my brothers and I were first learning we trained with RockCrock and QDVS and as Falco I could never even get close to Rock's Ganon, he fckin' destroyed me, but then I picked up Doc. and was getting closer (which was odd). I only saw potential in my Doc. after that and decided to main him a year later.

In regards to the comment though, it really is a fun match-up just gotta be careful with pill-spacing/tricks and learn how to space all of Doc's moves accordingly, as well as outsmart the Ganon player. Your mindset really counts as well in this matchup. Careful on recoveries because of his uair/fair being indestructible and almost demolishing your pills when recovering, don't rely on them as much. When grabbed at high %s DI behind him so he can't connect a fair, it seems easier to DI the bair than his fair. The best thing in this matchup to sum it up is your grab game, CGs and dthrow to fair, and easy bair/cape gimps. However, unless you can pressure and out-play him in his aerial game, thereby forcing him to stay on the ground for the most part, it may be difficult. Oh, and if you haven't take the time to master all aspects of DI and ledge-teching, you might want to do that as well ... you'll last stuff you didn't think could be.

Sorry I doubt we'll be at herb3 as well Dogy =\. Good luck all who's going though. Keep the Doc. represent up.

 

[unknown522]

is there anyway doc can approach with n-air without getting sheild grabbed?

like how fox can nair shine

or falcon can knee then gentlemen to aviod the sheild grab

the only thing i can think of is nair and do those doc kicks once i hit the ground

approaching a shield with aerials is really crap. If you jab their shield, they can just grab you, if they can time decently.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7HkePfcIvw&feature=sub

watch the first match, then the second

first match i full hop air dodged at 3:43 for no reason and died cuz of it =(

WTF HAPPENED IN BETWEEN THOSE MATCHES? lol

Man, I dunno how you got 4-stocked by kage. You need to intercept his aerials and grab him, then do at least a 3 hit combo off of it. You also need serious work on edgeguarding him.

f-tilt and u-tilt are amazing in the matchup as well. It's usually better to stay on the ground anyway.

Yeah just don't land in front of the opponent. Space the nair past the shield but make sure to quickly SHFFL it so you don't get punished for it or can at least protect yourself from getting punished. It has great uses. One use I can remember is for those characters with garbage shields that leave their head still unprotected.

Holy crap, smashmac posted!!

ask my boy shroomed about how he got 2-0'd EAAAAAAAAASY at r00rfest

3 stocked on yoshi's

***** on FD

sets set is 2-1 scar (1-1 if you don't count tourney LOL)

we still didn't get to play ****it!!

I mean ****. Doc/Ganon is my favorite matchup with Doc.

It's a fun-as-hell matchup, but you do actually have to play it pretty **** differently than the norm.

(for the record once again, my favorite matchup in the entire game is kirby/ganon)

ganon v doc is alright. I don't mind it at all as well.

My favorite matchup I think is Samus. I don't know why. Its not annoying at all to me (I may be really annoying myself that may be why)

I like using doc vs samus much more than fox vs samus.

 

[VGmasta]

The Ganon vs Doc matchup isn't too bad.. All you gotta do is switch up a lot and not be predictable. Easier said than done though. I think I literally hold my breath and pray everytime I approach a Ganondorf.

When my brothers and I were first learning we trained with RockCrock and QDVS and as Falco I could never even get close to Rock's Ganon, he fckin' destroyed me, but then I picked up Doc. and was getting closer (which was odd). I only saw potential in my Doc. after that and decided to main him a year later.

You're a tough act to follow. RockCrock still kicks my ***. I still can't beat him consistently yet.

 

[Dogysamich]

When my brothers and I were first learning we trained with RockCrock and QDVS and as Falco I could never even get close to Rock's Ganon, he fckin' destroyed me, but then I picked up Doc. and was getting closer (which was odd). I only saw potential in my Doc. after that and decided to main him a year later.

Man, that sounds completely different than the story you gave me of how you started up on doc.

The best thing in this matchup to sum it up is your grab game, CGs and dthrow to fair, and easy bair/cape gimps.

NA DAWG HOLD UP $MAC. YOU'VE BEEN GONE TOO LONG. YOU DON'T KEEP UP WITH THE META, MAN.

WE DON'T GRAB N****S ANYMORE, -glares at OTG-
AND WE **** SURE DON'T CHAINGRAB MAA****ERS IN THESE PARTS -glares at 18s-

I like using doc vs samus much more than fox vs samus.

What the ~~, maaaaaaan. I DON'T GET THAT ESPECIALLY AFTER WATCHIN YOU RUN THE CLOCK ON HMW. XD

But seriously, I guess I cringe Doc/Samus cause it takes forever for either one to really get anything accomplished. Like, I don't HATE the matchup or anything, I actually like having to out-think someone, but all the gaps of downtime just make the end result pretty unpleasant.

Samus is off the stage, and you just sit there. I mean ****, I've caught myself watching other matches in tourney while waiting for samus to recover. Atleast Fox can be like "Hey hurry up, I wanna grab a bite to eat" or something.

fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff.

All you gotta do is switch up a lot and not be predictable.

..... *taps finger on desk in frustration*.

Aight ricky, lemme explain the concept of a brickwall strategy.

It's a real simple concept. All it is is the idea that "If this situation arises, I will do this. Until you find a correct response, you will lose EVERYTIME."

So, if everytime ganon blocks a pill, he jumps in you hit him, why the f*** would you "switch up and be unpredictable"? That's the kinda stuff that causes people to lose matches they shouldn't be.

If you don't believe me, being backed by countless outside sources, then listen to mango using the same logic to systematically destroy one of your own

"He keeps coming down with a D.air. All I'm going do to is wait for it and **** him."

He's not changing a **** thing. Until his opponent figures out what's happening and changes his response, he will lose at that junction. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.

You're a tough act to follow. RockCrock still kicks my ***. I still can't beat him consistently yet.

*points up to what $mac said*
That's pretty much the cliffnotes to what I'd say.

I'd also add a line about knowing when to hit it and when to quit it.

 

[SmashMac]

Man, that sounds completely different than the story you gave me of how you started up on doc.

I picked up Doc. to fight Rock's Ganon at first. Anything else I told you was probably my reasoning to keep playing Doc. after that.

VGmasta, keep practicing with Rock and QDVS they're great teachers. You'll get close eventually if you keep at it.

 

[Strong Badam]

wow, that was a good read.