Do yourself a favor: Public service announcement.

[Juggleguy]

What's your point?

You don't have to actually jump out of your shield in order to wavedash OoS. Meaning, you don't have to make your character physically levitate from the ground while shielding in order to wavedash OoS. Meaning, you don't have to hold R to shield then press X/Y to jump then press L in order to wavedash OoS.

If you still can't interpret what I'm saying... your loss.

 

[AXE 09]

What's your point?

You don't have to actually jump out of your shield in order to wavedash OoS. Meaning, you don't have to make your character physically levitate from the ground while shielding in order to wavedash OoS. Meaning, you don't have to hold R to shield then press X/Y to jump then press L in order to wavedash OoS.

If you still can't interpret what I'm saying... your loss.

...What?

 

[Morin0]

Since this is a thread about breaking "bad habits", I got a kinda particular one that I've been curious about...as everytime someones noticed it they always question me as to "WHYYYYYYYYYY!?!"

I wavedash with the control stick entirely, No X or Y...and honestly I don't suffer from any kind of disadvantage in a technical aspect that I've ever been able to notice...so besides not killing my control stick faster than most players whats the advantage to X or Y? I've never felt comfortable using X/Y...just feels kinda wrong. To be frank, since im so fluent at using control stick only it frees up my right hand to react faster instead of having to reach to X/Y. To clarify before it comes up, yes that means waveshines without X/Y either.

I do this too.

 

[Zoler]

What's your point?

You don't have to actually jump out of your shield in order to wavedash OoS. Meaning, you don't have to make your character physically levitate from the ground while shielding in order to wavedash OoS. Meaning, you don't have to hold R to shield then press X/Y to jump then press L in order to wavedash OoS.

If you still can't interpret what I'm saying... your loss.

You have to leave the ground to wavedash.

You know why it's called an AIR DODGE?

 

[The Star King]

What's your point?

You don't have to actually jump out of your shield in order to wavedash OoS. Meaning, you don't have to make your character physically levitate from the ground while shielding in order to wavedash OoS. Meaning, you don't have to hold R to shield then press X/Y to jump then press L in order to wavedash OoS.

If you still can't interpret what I'm saying... your loss.

Except you do. You DO have to physically leave the ground to wavedash (OoS or not), even if it's for such a short time (at least 1 frame) your eyes can't see it. I'm fairly certain about this, and if I'm wrong my whole life's a lie.

I've been correctly interpreting you from the beginning. I'm just telling you that you're straight-up wrong.

 

[Strong Badam]

lolyeah that's like saying you don't have to jump to jump cancel a grab

 

[Eggm]

Even those you guys are right you are being very nit picky.

 

[knightpraetor]

very little talk about the actual opening statement by eggm..but i've actually been trying to fix the habit of hard pressing for almost 2 years...basically i fix it in friendlies but then it just comes out again in tourney under pressure.. and then i stop worrying about it for a while and i naturally gravitate back in to pressing the button all the way...really annoying habit to break

 

[The Star King]

Even those you guys are right you are being very nit picky.

No we're not. Juggleguy was like "everyone needs to realize you don't actually need to jump to wavedash OoS". He's telling us to realize something that isn't true, so we're pointing out that... it's not true. Maybe if he said it in passing it would be nitpicky, but he was all "I see a lot of people jump, and it just makes me cringe", so it's hard to ignore when he's cringing about something you have to do.

 

[Zoler]

lolyeah that's like saying you don't have to jump to jump cancel a grab

That's different strong bad since you don't actually have to leave the ground when jump cancelling a grab, since you can do it in the startup frames.

Wavedashing requires you to actually be IN the air, before you air dodge.

But yeah

 

[Eggm]

very little talk about the actual opening statement by eggm..but i've actually been trying to fix the habit of hard pressing for almost 2 years...basically i fix it in friendlies but then it just comes out again in tourney under pressure.. and then i stop worrying about it for a while and i naturally gravitate back in to pressing the button all the way...really annoying habit to break

Yep, this thread was to try to spare people this agony.

No we're not. Juggleguy was like "everyone needs to realize you don't actually need to jump to wavedash OoS". He's telling us to realize something that isn't true, so we're pointing out that... it's not true. Maybe if he said it in passing it would be nitpicky, but he was all "I see a lot of people jump, and it just makes me cringe", so it's hard to ignore when he's cringing about something you have to do.

You can defend it, but does it REALLY matter that much.. LOL.

 

[The Star King]

No but that's the point, Juggleguy was bizarrely waving around some information that's both incorrect and largely irrelevant

Now I'm gonna have to ask you to defend the usefulness of discussing the usefulness of discussing whether or not you actually have to jump to wavedash

 

[standardtoaster]

you press x a r r to wavedash idk what you're talking about

 

[Kink-Link5]

This makes me so happy that I learned to L-cancel with Z.

If only I had a CRT I could use my apparently better L-canceling method to play the game.

Juggs is right as far as I can tell, and I'm not just saying that as Juggleguy's friend. The first frame after jump squat is over is an interesting one as far as what it means for actions and states-

If you are holding X/Y/Up on this frame, you will Fullhop instead of Shorthop
Jump velocity is applied on this frame, and takes effect on the one after
Your character is very technically airborne, and all air actions can be input and they will begin to carry out on this frame
No ground actions that are normally possible during jump squat are so on this frame
Your character is concidered in an air state for moves that have different hit data on air or ground hit, such as DK's ground slap, that does not hit air opponents, and when hit by moves below a certain knockback threshold, such as shine, you will land on the ground instantaneously with no hitstun after hitlag is carried out.
Jump "sounds" come out on the next frame
Your character's TopN bone is flush with the ground on this frame
This is what would go on to become the "Dead frame" issue in Brawl

So, you are barely technically airborne, but your character does not get any sort of vertical movement on this frame. You do not have to be rising to wavedash, and perfect wavedashes should be near silent (That goes double for you Ice Climbers).

If anyone else knows more about this frame and frames surrounding jumps please feel free to add-on, or correct me where I am wrong.

 

[commonyoshi]

Woah woah woah. I never knew you could l-cancel without pressing it down until it clicked. So how far exactly do you need to press it until it allows l-canceling?

I feel like I could get over this habit in like an hour.

 

[Eggm]

Just far enough that the game registered that you hit the button. Aka when the light shield appears if you are just standing.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I think when Juggleguy says "you don't need to jump OoS", he means that you don't need to be holding a trigger when you hit the jump button, so that you can release the trigger, input the jump command (so that you're JCing the shield drop animation), and then wavedash. This is fine and is what I generally do.

 

[BrahmenNoodles]

It might seem silly, but for "unsticking" muscle memory, one should try practicing whatever technique in an alternating fashion between what they already do and have memorized, and what they want to do. Say you want to use X instead of Y to jump for a shffl, use Y to successfully shffl once or twice, then attempt X once or twice, then Y again and so on (until confident with the preferred method).

The idea is for certain things that require timing or a rhythm per say, you can kind of coax your brain in to sending signals it already knows are correct (and will remain the same even with a new button combo) while attempting to change your technique.

It worked for me when I decided I wanted to play a song or lick on guitar differently than I had been playing. Seemed to work when I recently decided to focus on using L for l-cancelling instead of R and Z.

You'll also get a direct comparison between the two methods, which one feels better and is more effective, in the process.

 

[The Good Doctor]

I think when Juggleguy says "you don't need to jump OoS", he means that you don't need to be holding a trigger when you hit the jump button, so that you can release the trigger, input the jump command (so that you're JCing the shield drop animation), and then wavedash. This is fine and is what I generally do.

Meaning you jump when you wavedash, like everyone else.
Yes. you have to jump and leave the ground, then actually wavedash.
This isn't a new or hard concept to understand
Also, to JC the shield you don't let go of shield. You simply jump out of it. Which means if you WD OoS you Jump while you are still holding the shield button. If you are not, you are not doing it, you simply are dropping your shield then wavedashing.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I know. I'm guessing the way he meant "you don't jump OoS" to be parsed is as "you're not jumping out of the shield", by which he probably means you're jumping out of the shield-drop animation instead. I agree he worded it terribly.

There is basically no practical difference difference between wavedashing out of the shield itself and wavedashing out of the shield drop animation, and it's not worth distinguishing between the two in my eyes.

 

[The Good Doctor]

I know. I'm guessing the way he meant "you don't jump OoS" to be parsed is as "you're not jumping out of the shield", by which he probably means you're jumping out of the shield-drop animation instead. I agree he worded it terribly.

There is basically no practical difference difference between wavedashing out of the shield itself and wavedashing out of the shield drop animation, and it's not worth distinguishing between the two in my eyes.

I'm under the impression one is slower than the other and since that's the case you don't have as many punish options because of it.

 

[Xyzz]

I think when Juggleguy says "you don't need to jump OoS", he means that you don't need to be holding a trigger when you hit the jump button, so that you can release the trigger, input the jump command (so that you're JCing the shield drop animation), and then wavedash. This is fine and is what I generally do.

That is a great piece of information, thank you

 

[ArcNatural]

This is pretty useful stuff.

But Eggm I believe you can make the transition if you really wanted to.

I used X for 3 years maining Marth, switched to Y for Fox.

I used R for everything, then when I learned about wavedash OOS I somehow ended up changing everything to L EXCEPT wavedashing which I do with R.

And I also did the change from hard click to soft click l-cancels though I forget exactly when I did.

The one thing I do wish I could do (just never bothered to really try) is to change wavedashing so that if I were to mess it up I would short hop instead of fulljump. I always full press Y on wavedashes heh.

 

[tm]

Personally,
L - airdodges (wavedashes)
R - sheild (and dogdes)
Z - L-Cancelling.
I actually use index on Z and middle on R.

I suck at melee, but I feel that this way is probably one of the best ways to learn.

 

[Eggm]

This is pretty useful stuff.

But Eggm I believe you can make the transition if you really wanted to.

I used X for 3 years maining Marth, switched to Y for Fox.

I used R for everything, then when I learned about wavedash OOS I somehow ended up changing everything to L EXCEPT wavedashing which I do with R.

And I also did the change from hard click to soft click l-cancels though I forget exactly when I did.

The one thing I do wish I could do (just never bothered to really try) is to change wavedashing so that if I were to mess it up I would short hop instead of fulljump. I always full press Y on wavedashes heh.

I just don't mess up wavedashes. *trollface*

 

[AXE 09]

Personally,
L - airdodges (wavedashes)
R - sheild (and dogdes)
Z - L-Cancelling.
I actually use index on Z and middle on R.

I suck at melee, but I feel that this way is probably one of the best ways to learn.

Which do you use to tech?

I use L ONLY for shielding. R for everything else (air dodges, teching, rolling/spot dodging, rolling from the edge, L - canceling, whatever else lol)

 

[tm]

Uh. I actually don't know off the top of my head.
*plays a match to check*

I use R to tech. I guess I consider it a function of shielding/rolling, if that makes sense. (With techrolling and walltech jumps etc.)

 

[The Good Doctor]

For the record, I use "R" and "X" for everything.

 

[Metal Reeper]

I think another good public service announcement is that when teaching someone new teach them buffer rolls first. That's the first thing I teach everyone. ONLY roll with C-stick.

 

[Eggm]

I think perfect rolls without the C-stick are 1 frame faster. I wish I learned to do those instead of the C-stick. ><

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

I think perfect rolls without the C-stick are 1 frame faster. I wish I learned to do those instead of the C-stick. ><

What?

Really?

I've never heard of this. Are you sure?

 

[Eggm]

Yeah, I think like the shield doesn't have to come out (which takes 1 frame) or something like that.

 

[The Good Doctor]

I have never heard of this. Even if it's true though it would not help in any situation I can think of off hand compared to a buffer roll.

 

[Eggm]

I have never heard of this. Even if it's true though it would not help in any situation I can think of off hand compared to a buffer roll.

Yeah, if you were trying to roll as soon as shield stun ended on a move you would likely be better off using a buffer roll, unless you had the timing down for the exact frame shield stun was over and could do the perfect roll (1 frame faster).

Ditto for a situation like you do a nair and L-cancel it and want to roll right after the L-cancel lag ends, unless you had the timing so precise that you could input that type of roll right on the correct frame then buffering would probably be faster.

Edit: I'm pretty sure it's true though, I remember reading it on smashboards at some point, let's get magus or someone to confirm though.

 

[-ACE-]

I thought buffering input the action on the first available frame... hmm.

 

[AXE 09]

I'm not sure if it's true but it makes sense. Cuz it looks like you actually buffer a shield, then buffer a roll from shield.

Kinda like when you buffer a jump, your shield comes up. But I'd imagine that it takes at least 1 extra frame for you to leave the ground, since for at least 1 frame you're shielding.

 

[Tero.]

What Axe said.
You're first "buffering" shield then buffering roll, spotdodge or jump.
You'll always see one frame of shield before doing your move.

Shield Buffer is no true buffer tho, because you'll shield as long as you hold the trigger as opposed to jumps or attacks were you'll only do it once when pressing the button the first time and holding won't do anything more.

 

[-ACE-]

That makes perfect sense. Thanks

 

[Varist]

successfully converted to soft l canceling. thanks eggm. seems like it's easier to l cancel drills to for this reason:

when I soft l cancel drills I sort of wiggle the l button. first press it below the threshold for light shield so an l cancel will register, then quickly push and release it between the threshold for light shield and right before click. i imagine a ton of little registers while i'm wiggling L and hoping that's making it easier to time.

just a superstitious feeling though. magus strongbad strong bad ajpanton

 

[SuperMatt]

i feel like mango does some tricky stuff with this nonsense

like he is able to tech things that i wouldn't be able to tech because i just hit L/R