Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Momotsuki]

What in the World (of Light) did I miss

Nobody will tell us.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Everytime someone says 's moves are "not fun to land", I'm like

Their normals, in particular their aerials, are some of the most fun moves to land in all of DLC imo - to me it's between them, and / when it comes to whose normals I like the most.

More lag for an added "oomph" would only make them less fun for me, actually. It's exactly what made Hero and Byleth not fun to play as far as I'm concerned - I certainly get why they're designed that way, but there's no need for the bear and bird to have that when their playstyle is more balanced compared to Byleth's laggy-but-far-reaching moves or Hero's MP gauge and Command Menu, which dictate the rest of the moveset.

 

[Noipoi]

Truth be told, we're not out of the ballpark in regards to leaks.


With 8 days left, and how much they're hyping up this presentation, all it'd take is one guy to ruin everything.

I really really hope **** doesn’t leak.

This is the last smash reveal we’re getting until Nintendo’s next console. And something tells me it’ll be a little later into that console’s lifecycle. We’re looking at six years or something, man.

Let us go in blind.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I think the biggest issue here is that Banjo & Kazooie have a bit of dissonance with how they play vs. what impression their visual character design gives players. The way they look and move kind of makes you think they're a straight brawler character like Mario, but he doesn't really have the frame data to back up that playstyle. Instead, they're supposed to set up with Egg Firing, Breegull Blaster, and Rear Egg a lot of the time. The latter two moves give them a higher skill floor than one would expect, and with a higher skill floor comes a character that feels kinda clunky until you figure out how they actually work, but most people never really get to that point.

It's like Mega Knight.

Expectation: Powerful flying swordsman who cuts everyone up with his super flashy Mach Tornado!
Reality: How do I Up Air string?


There are some other issues like with how they walk a fine line between set up based all-rounder and "my gameplan is E G G", which has gotten them the reputation of being a boring zoner, but I think the former point is the crux of the problem.

 

[volbound1700]

I don't see anything wrong with Banjo's moveset. The character is pretty even keel as well. He is quick to master and has some good moves but he isn't broken like Bayo was in Smash 4.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

TBF B-K have other semi-consistent KO setups starting at around the 100 % mark:

• D-Throw -> Up Smash / U-Tilt. Or in stages with tall blast zones, D-Throw -> F-Air / F-Smash. This situation's not going to be harmed much because the bury situation inherently is a mindgame. They did buff Up Tilt's and F-Smash KO power with the Aegis patch.
• B-Air / N-Air off stage (character dependent). Likewise, B-Air's knockback angle sends lower as a result of the Aegis patch.
• D-Tilt / F-Smash two frame at ledge* or as a read from edge get up. B-K's ledgetrapping is a notable strength of theirs since they can cover a lot of options while commiting little themselves. D-Tilt sends at a pretty nasty angle for instance. Dash Attack's clean hit can KO a bit later, but is slightly faster than D-Tilt.

I could see them doing that as a result. I know, semi-consistent, but still. * F-Smash coming out later might require the B-K to prep it earlier, but two-frames / edge get ups are not heavily affected by that.

The Aegis patch did a number of favors for them - I don't think that patch solved every inconsistency issue they have (another issue I'd like to see fixed is U-Air's tendency to drop sometimes), but those buffs help them particularily vs. rushdown characters who can give them some trouble like .



Wasn't / 's moveset decently well-receved since they had relatively straightforward movesets? I know, transformation character with two different sets of specials, but still. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I never saw it as people kept yelling about how busted they are so maybe?

What in the World (of Light) did I miss

Apparantly suggesting improvements that would lead to potentially enjoying a character more is seen as a bad thing, beyond that, nothing

 

[Momotsuki]

I also hope nothing leaks. This is supposed to be a special moment coming up.

 

[AmphabulouSnake]

Don't know if it's just me, but even as a person who has NEVER played Banjo Kazooie (yet at least), everytime I see the bear and bird in Smash I just instantly smile.
They do be having that kind of power don't they

 

[Deleted member]

I also hope nothing leaks. This is supposed to be a special moment coming up.

They've done a frustratingly good job of preventing leaks for the last year, I don't see why they'd drop the ball here at the finish line.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Don't know if it's just me, but even as a person who has NEVER played Banjo Kazooie (yet at least), everytime I see the bear and bird in Smash I just instantly smile.
They do be having that kind of power don't they

Their double jump voice clips?

They really sound like they're having the time of their lives.

Spoiler: Also the noise polution that is 8 player Banjo & Kazooie will never not be funny:

 

[N3ON]

Even though I'm a fan of Banjo and have little problem with the way they implemented him I do acknowledge that there is no original newcomer you'll be able to speak less than positively about without hordes of support coming their way. Especially the DLC. Especially on here.

The deck is just stacked against speaking adversely on characters.

 

[Jondolio]

I enjoy Banjo's inclusion. He wasn't on my want list like K. Rool and Ridley as I have no personal connection to him, but I still recognize that he was a longtime fan request that has a place in Smash. The Grinch Leak probably made me warm up to them as well. He also has one of the best reveal trailers by far with an amazing remix of Spiral Mountain.

As far as playstyle goes, I have more mixed feelings about him. I enjoy playing as him, but I'll have to agree that Banjo could benefit from more exciting sound effects when their attacks connect. I don't have a major issue with the lack of a gimmick as his playstyle is still pretty unique imo.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

I really really hope **** doesn’t leak.

This is the last smash reveal we’re getting until Nintendo’s next console. And something tells me it’ll be a little later into that console’s lifecycle. We’re looking at six years or something, man.

Let us go in blind.

I don't think that'll be a problem. We haven't had a true leak since possibly Steve. Any 4chan leaks are always fake.

 

[7NATOR]

Ok so about that Sora 4chan rumor (I refuse to call it a leak as this is just a person saying things)

I’m very sure it’s false, the lineup of Fighters Pass vol 2 was completed at the very start of the pass, so it’s not hard to assume that negotiations with other companies were taken care of at that point as well.

If this Sora rumor is true, It reads more like a Mii Costume than Playable character. Perhaps it would be the bonus content

Yes I don't think Nintendo would go to Disney just for a Mii Costume, but if the Discussions did not materlize into Playable Sora for whatever reason, Sometimes it might be best to come out with Something rather than Nothing, perhaps on Both sides

Then again, the OG Post that Claimed Sora on October 5th had no details, just said Sora on October 5th. if the OG Post is NOT related to the Disney Music Spot, then it might lean more towards playable. If it is related then maybe 50/50, and this is assuming the posts are real and not Lucky and/or Educated Guesses

 

[Baba]

The only thing I dislike about Banjo's moveset is I think that his forward and back airs should be switched.
The jump-peck move is such an iconic attack in Banjo Kazooie and it should probably work similarly to Samus' forward air.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

I really really hope **** doesn’t leak.

This is the last smash reveal we’re getting until Nintendo’s next console. And something tells me it’ll be a little later into that console’s lifecycle. We’re looking at six years or something, man.

Let us go in blind.

I hope I get to see some leaks. Just ****ig flood my house with legit leaks, please

Im sick.of waiting lol

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Another Banjo & Kazooie positive: This is the best they've ever looked, and also one of the few modern style models of the characters where Banjo doesn't look super uncanny.

 

[Noipoi]

I hope I get to see some leaks. Just ****ig flood my house with legit leaks, please

Im sick.of waiting lol

You can survive one more week

 

[PeridotGX]

I didn't support Banjo prior to his inclusion, but I think he's pretty fun to play as. I personally prefer playing as him over Joker, Min Min, and maybe Terry. His moveset is fine, probably a little too reliant on projectiles but that could be fixed in a patch. I don't know where people are coming from when they say it's "unsatisfying". Also, I know this point is done to death, but he just... feels like a Smash 64 character (in a good way).

 

[BlondeLombax]

Just gonna bump this real quick, I’m bad at timing posts like this one.

Yeah, as of this hour, it's now 8 days exact until the Day of Reckoning, as I like to call it.

Spoiler: Meaning another question to pass some time (I really should post these in the mornings).

So, with our final DLC fighter on the horizon, is there anything you would have added to any of the 11 fighters we have already received? Not replaced with, added to (big difference, see?). I was hoping that with Banjo & Kazooie, we would have gotten at least a few more of the original tracks from the series (especially a few tracks from Nuts & Bolts; controversial as it was, the OST is one of Grant Kirkhope's finest works).

 

[Dukefire]

Do you think that 8 player mode and gamecube controller support may still stay for the next Smash game?

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Do you think that 8 player mode and gamecube controller support may still stay for the next Smash game?

8 player is crazy popular, I don’t see why that’d go. Same for GC controller support

Just gonna bump this real quick, I’m bad at timing posts like this one.

my last reply to your post got edited to include a Monokuma Mii for Kazuya’s wave

also I guess for Banjo, add the Undertale Spirit Event shortly after Sans’s Mii

 

[Shroob]

Do you think that 8 player mode and gamecube controller support may still stay for the next Smash game?

I'd be surprised if Gamecube controller support is dropped. Possible, but they've brought it back for 3 games in a row now, and Smash has always been a "Use whatever controller you want" kinda game.

 

[volbound1700]

I enjoy Banjo's inclusion. He wasn't on my want list like K. Rool and Ridley as I have no personal connection to him, but I still recognize that he was a longtime fan request that has a place in Smash. The Grinch Leak probably made me warm up to them as well. He also has one of the best reveal trailers by far with an amazing remix of Spiral Mountain.

As far as playstyle goes, I have more mixed feelings about him. I enjoy playing as him, but I'll have to agree that Banjo could benefit from more exciting sound effects when their attacks connect. I don't have a major issue with the lack of a gimmick as his playstyle is still pretty unique imo.

Someone already pointed this out but his move set does capture his abilities in both of his titular games pretty well. Kind of like the Castlevania characters, it is series driven. This is what makes Sakurai such a good developer. He isn't perfect but he generally makes characters feel like their series and finds ways to represent their series very well.

This is why I would be opposed to changing his move set.

Some comments on move sets from other DLC characters:

Byleth's Bow and Arrow ability just feels weird. The AI does it very well though and I kind of like it because the AI can really nail you with it when you are not paying attention. Still, just something about the control on it seems off. Link's bow and arrow is perfect.

I don't like anything about Joker (move set or character) but I am not opening that can of worms up because some of it is personal taste.

Mythra/Pyra have a decent move set but they just come off boring.

Kayuza comes off sluggish to move around. Granted, Sakurai explained this in his character introduction video. Still, it is sometimes hard to play him in Smash as a result

Steve's move set is very complicated. I think he perhaps has one of the most unique move set of any Smash character ever but it is so complicated that people have a hard time using it. In a quick match, it is hard to pay attention to mining Diamond to make a Diamond sword.

Overall, though, most of the characters are well polished across the board. It is very hard to find faults with how Sakurai makes characters.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

At least the 100+ people watching the thread should at the very least agree with me when it comes to a different move that is visually and audibly dull, Meta Knight's Mach Tornado, being a single hit move that no longer sounds like this

Name a bigger downgrade in Smash history

Do you think that 8 player mode and gamecube controller support may still stay for the next Smash game?

Considering they made fake GC controllers that work for every game despite how you lose 2 buttons, I think it's safe to say that the GC controller will never die

 

[Jondolio]

Someone already pointed this out but his move set does capture his abilities in both of his titular games pretty well. Kind of like the Castlevania characters, it is series driven. This is what makes Sakurai such a good developer. He isn't perfect but he generally makes characters feel like their series and finds ways to represent their series very well.

This is why I would be opposed to changing his move set.

Bro I didn't even complain about his moveset

 

[JustPlainDan]

I really really hope **** doesn’t leak.

Well, Mario and Luigi are plumbers, so I have no concerns about that matter.

 

[Theguy123]

Just remembered it’s the next event tonight so it would be funny if the next event was characters with spiky hair. Sora leak would be killed at the very hands of Nintendo themselves



I’m half joking

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

At least the 100+ people watching the thread should at the very least agree with me when it comes to a different move that is visually and audibly dull, Meta Knight's Mach Tornado, being a single hit move that no longer sounds like this
Name a bigger downgrade in Smash history

I'm convinced they made Mach Tornado super lame on purpose in the later installments to hit home that the character is hard to play.

Either that or Mach Tornado was a noob killer. Perhaps both.

 

[Shroob]

The fact we still have yet to have a Swordfighter tourney when we've had both projectiles and hand to hand combat is odd.



Watch it be tonight's.

 

[Noipoi]

The fact we still have yet to have a Swordfighter tourney when we've had both projectiles and hand to hand combat is odd.

Ah yes, the wildcard.

JRPG protagonist from a series I’ve never heard of but is actually pretty big in Japan. Should’ve known.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I'm convinced they made Mach Tornado super lame on purpose in the later installments to hit home that the character is hard to play.

Either that or Mach Tornado was a noob killer. Perhaps both.

Ironically enough the new single hit one is better as it means you can't SDI out of it but that alongside this ****ing weak sauce sound effect they gave it this time, it's easily one of the least satisfying moves to land imo and it's a kill move.

 

[TyrantLizardKing]

Popping back in a year later (last time I was here was pre-Steve) to say that I think it's from SEGA and I want it to be a Sonic character.

 

[Cosmic77]

I don't have any issues with Banjo or his moveset (even if it's a little annoying at times). Seems to suit him well, and it was heavily inspired from his game of origin.

To be honest though, and I could be completely wrong about this, I feel like Sakurai wasn't really intrested in making Banjo. compared to other characters. Just didn't feel like his heart was there. Maybe it's because Banjo was sandwiched in between Hero, Terry, and Byleth — three characters who Sakurai was very clearly enthusiastic about and was very knowledgeable when it came to their respective franchises. It also didn't feel like he flexed his creative muscles as much, which isn't necessarily a bad thing if you ask me. I don't want every character to be a complex, gimmicky fighter.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

The fact we still have yet to have a Swordfighter tourney when we've had both projectiles and hand to hand combat is odd.



Watch it be tonight's.

Today's Monday. Tourneys or Events are announced on Tuesday.

 

[Siggy88]

Hold the phone.

There's Banjo hate now?

BANJO HATE?

Holy crap, I still remember the absurd amounts of hype behind him just 2 years ago. Everyone and their dogs had him as their number 1 most wanted.
Every list on youtube would end up like ".. and 1#... Banjo! Such an important character yada yada yada".

And now there's hate?

In the inverse thought, I remember the amount of salt produced when Byleth made it, and now you search "Smash Tournament" on youtube and he's/she's consistently in them.

Interesting.... Interesting indeed.

 

[Momotsuki]

Just gonna bump this real quick, I’m bad at timing posts like this one.

Day of Reckoning, you say...?
Papa John...
John...?
John-117...

 

[Shroob]

Today's Monday. Tourneys or Events are announced on Tuesday.

Tomorrow then.


It's odd that Swords is the one form of combat we're missing. Doesn't really mean anything, but with fists and projectiles out of the way, swords would be the obvious 3rd choice.

 

[Deleted member]

Do you think that 8 player mode and gamecube controller support may still stay for the next Smash game?

Depends on what they want to do with Smash. If we end up seeing a hard reboot of the franchise in the next game, we might see the end of Gamecube controller support. The Wii had a lot of controllers, which necessitated Brawl's support for just about everything, and since the Wii controllers worked with the Wii U, they continued the trend. Since the Gamecube controller has been able to haunt every Nintendo console since its inception, I think they keep it for tradition at this point... But if Smash stops growing and refocuses, is there tradition to keep?

8 player is definitely emblematic of the Wii U era, being the "hey look at how cool this feature is, it's unique to the Wii U version of the 3DS game you already have" of Smash 4... And is probably unfortunately here to stay. It's not something I enjoy and it has actively been a detriment to the game in the past and I think it probably still was this time. There's always going to be a limit to how much crap you can have on screen at once and if Nintendo insists on keeping their hardware a generation behind "standard", it's going to chug under the weight of what's going on in a Smash game. I have to wonder if they brought it back because it was an easy feature to port over and add to the "everyone is here" shtick or if they just like the idea of it.

 

[subterrestrial]

Wasn't / 's moveset decently well-receved since they had relatively straightforward movesets? I know, transformation character with two different sets of specials, but still. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

yea alot of people liked their kit bc they’re a traditional smash swordie