Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[7NATOR]

Okay so the person who originally said a leak is flowing around reaches out to me to tell me what it was.

he says from what he’s heard, Nintendo Canada teased master chief in smash with a image post and then quickly deleted it straight away. He’s saying that if what he heard was true then someone out there will have an image and it’ll probably start to float around within the next couple of days.

that’s if what he heard was true

If that did happen, I would imagine people would be posting the image immediately and not waiting, even if they have to do it anonymously on 4chan

I guess it depends how quickly Nintendo of Canada deleted the photo, but I don't know my guy

 

[RoboFist]

If it gets laggier to be more visually stimulating, add more power to compensate. Kill move design philosophy 101. Not to mention that the weak blegh has nothing to do with the move's frame data, so you can easily add a crunchy sound effect or even have Kazooie scream in pain or something. That alone makes landing the move feel significantly better.


Sidenote now that I think about it, has anyone ever seen other characters get praised specifically for a simple moveset? Like, Greninja, Ridley, Belmont and Byleth come to mind as they have no gameplay gimmicks period unlike Banjo yet I've never seen their movesets praised for that one thing in particular

I mean...the Belmonts were praised for feeling like they did in Castlevania, almost to a fault. Their aerials are poor, their whips have a decent amount of start-up lag, etc. Competitively, these are weaknesses, but to fans? It feels good to play because it feels like Castlevania.

That's how I feel about them, Mega Man, Sonic, and especially B&K. I picked them up the night they dropped and felt like I immediately knew how to use their moveset because it felt like playing Tooie (only obviously much faster).

I've never won a tourney with them, but I also suck at this game and never win tourneys anyway haha. But I have gotten farther with B&K at a local than I had with any other character before. That personally doesn't matter to me. I like how they feel like they do in their games, which is enough for me and a lot of Rare fans.

I guess the difference between the two mindsets - "is this character automatically top tier?" vs "do I like this character enough to get good at them in Smash?" - is a different conversion altogether.

 

[subterrestrial]

I mean...the Belmonts were praised for feeling like they did in Castlevania, almost to a fault. Their aerials are poor, their whips have a decent amount of start-up lag, etc. Competitively, these are weaknesses, but to fans? It feels good to play because it feels like Castlevania.

That's how I feel about them, Mega Man, Sonic, and especially B&K. I picked them up the night they dropped and felt like I immediately knew how to use their moveset because it felt like playing Tooie (only obviously much faster).

megaman and sonic lowkey top tier tho

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I mean...the Belmonts were praised for feeling like they did in Castlevania, almost to a fault. Their aerials are poor, their whips have a decent amount of start-up lag, etc. Competitively, these are weaknesses, but to fans? It feels good to play because it feels like Castlevania.

That's how I feel about them, Mega Man, Sonic, and especially B&K. I picked them up the night they dropped and felt like I immediately knew how to use their moveset because it felt like playing Tooie (only obviously much faster).

I've never won a tourney with them, but I also suck at this game and never win tourneys anyway haha. But I have gotten farther with B&K at a local than I had with any other character before. That personally doesn't matter to me. I like how they feel like they do in their games, which is enough for me and a lot of Rare fans.

I guess the difference between the two mindsets - "is this character automatically top tier?" vs "do I like this character enough to get good at them in Smash?" - is a different conversion altogether.

True but there's a difference with "Wow look how true to the games they are" and "Wow look how simple the moveset is" but it's the latter I see get praised about Banjo of all characters for some reason

 

[Deleted member]

I think the leak is fake, but July doesn't seem that weird.

Like, Min Min's was filmed anywhere between the end of April and her release date.

While that's true, we have to look at the state of leaks in Fighters Pass 2, wherein we've gotten one hint at Min Min and a leak of Steve 10 minutes before the presentation started... And then nothing accurate (to the best of my knowledge) for anyone past Steve. But then shortly after Kazuya some randy on /v/ spams 3 threads with his fanfiction and it's not fanfiction?

The reason I wonder is because a specific date is rarely arbitrary. It's either at least partially good information, or it's a date picked for some reason that once discovered, will likely prove the leak to be false, like an anniversary of some sort. There's always the possibility of extremely dumb luck, of course...

Idk man, pretty much every other character is able to be true to the original yet they don't seem to have this issue

Mega Man's sound effects are almost all the same as he had in his 8 bit appearances, so I don't really see why it's that much of a problem. It adds character and that charming nostalgia factor we're all after.

I don't really have the highest opinion on Banjo Kazooie as a game or the pair as a fighter so I'm really not authorized to speak on the matter without starting trouble.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

Ugh, All this Banjo & Kazooie slander. There is nothing wrong with them. They're absolutely fine characters that do their job to satisfy the fans and I think they do a good job at being an all-rounder type character they were designed to be.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Sora's VA is very well known to be Haley Joel Osment, who is unionized, which Smash Bros. doesn't like to mess around with.

I no longer want Sora.

Funny with how hot button the topics are it's the fact that he'd probably only have Japanese voice clips that got me against him. lol

OK not against him, but I don't want to have to deal with another character that should speak English, but doesn't.

Sidenote now that I think about it, has anyone ever seen other characters get praised specifically for a simple moveset? Like, Greninja, Ridley, Belmont and Byleth come to mind as they have no gameplay gimmicks period unlike Banjo yet I've never seen their movesets praised for that one thing in particular

Greninja

Simple

lol

OK he's not particularly complicated, but oh boy is that a high skill floor. To answer your question though, Banjo & Kazooie are the first (and really only) ones praised for being simple since a lot of the newcomers have had some sort of overarching gimmick.

Idk man, pretty much every other character is able to be true to the original yet they don't seem to have this issue

As an example, Simon and Richter do have retro whip sounds, but only for their Neutral Aerial. Every other attack has a satisfying whip crack. Or...perhaps it is in all of their whip moves, but it gets drowned out by the crack on the others.

 

[CannonStreak]

Ugh, All this Banjo & Kazooie slander. There is nothing wrong with them. They're absolutely fine characters that do their job to satisfy the fans and I think they do a good job at being an all-rounder type character they were designed to be.

I agree with that. Even if they were bad, they would not be that bad. They are quite underrated, too.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Mega Man's sound effects are almost all the same as he had in his 8 bit appearances, so I don't really see why it's that much of a problem. It adds character and that charming nostalgia factor we're all after.

Mega Man doesn't exclusively do that though, he has a ton of different moves on top with good visual and audio design to make moves have a better feel of impact, hell, his trailer even emphasized this with his down smash, one of his most satisfying moves to land

 

[RoboFist]

True but there's a difference with "Wow look how true to the games they are" and "Wow look how simple the moveset is" but it's the latter I see get praised about Banjo of all characters for some reason

I don't know then. The only time I see people praising the "simplicity" of their moveset is when people are comparing them to the other DLC fighters who each have their own "gimmick" that their entire playstyle revolves around. To a lot of people, B&K's "simplicity" just feels like a breath of fresh air in a sea of Arsenes, command menus, GO!s, crafting tables, transformations, and Devil Genes. That's all.

 

[osby]

True but there's a difference with "Wow look how true to the games they are" and "Wow look how simple the moveset is" but it's the latter I see get praised about Banjo of all characters for some reason

Banjo fans made a lot of people upset by constantly ****ting on other characters for having swords/gimmicks and now they can't take what they dish out.

Hence, "trust us guys, being boring automatically makes moveset interesting".

 

[Noipoi]

Banjo fans made a lot of people upset by constantly ****ting on other characters for having swords/gimmicks and now they can't take what they dish out.

Hence, "trust us guys, being boring automatically makes moveset interesting".

Why are all Banjo fans now in allegiance with the douchebag ones?

I’ve never **** on anyone in my whole life.

Except that one time in Germany. But I’m legally forbidden to talk about that.

 

[RoboFist]

Why are all Banjo fans now in allegiance with the douchebag ones?

It's the internet, man. Where nuance goes to die.

 

[Shroob]

While that's true, we have to look at the state of leaks in Fighters Pass 2, wherein we've gotten one hint at Min Min and a leak of Steve 10 minutes before the presentation started... And then nothing accurate (to the best of my knowledge) for anyone past Steve. But then shortly after Kazuya some randy on /v/ spams 3 threads with his fanfiction and it's not fanfiction?

The reason I wonder is because a specific date is rarely arbitrary. It's either at least partially good information, or it's a date picked for some reason that once discovered, will likely prove the leak to be false, like an anniversary of some sort. There's always the possibility of extremely dumb luck, of course...


Mega Man's sound effects are almost all the same as he had in his 8 bit appearances, so I don't really see why it's that much of a problem. It adds character and that charming nostalgia factor we're all after.

I don't really have the highest opinion on Banjo Kazooie as a game or the pair as a fighter so I'm really not authorized to speak on the matter without starting trouble.

A specific date isn't anything new. There are countless fake leaks that pin specific dates for no reason. Like, one of PapaGeno's more recent vid showed no less than 3 4chan posts that all guessed we'd get a General Direct on the date that we did.


I don't think it's anything worth thinking about. It's most likely just yet another run of the mill fake leak that got a date correct, that's all.

 

[subterrestrial]

hot take: banjo isn’t boring nor basic he has
the neutral b gun stance
grenade item
triple jump
bury etc

 

[Cutie Gwen]

lol

OK he's not particularly complicated, but oh boy is that a high skill floor. To answer your question though, Banjo & Kazooie are the first (and really only) ones praised for being simple since a lot of the newcomers have had some sort of overarching gimmick.

It's exclusively the moveset what I'm talking about, but I asked as I wouldn't be surprised if the simplicity praise was indeed given to other characters and I simply never saw that, so I want to know if others have ever seen it

I don't know then. The only time I see people praising the "simplicity" of their moveset is when people are comparing them to the other DLC fighters who each have their own "gimmick" that their entire playstyle revolves around. To a lot of people, B&K's "simplicity" just feels like a breath of fresh air in a sea of Arsenes, command menus, GO!s, crafting tables, transformations, and Devil Genes. That's all.

Again though, nobody seems to praise Byleth for this despite Byleth having less gameplay gimmicks than Banjo

 

[Theguy123]

Just the words of “master chief has apparently leaked” has tuned 4chan into chaos. Gotta love leaks wether they’re fake or not. They always cause an argument on 4chan within a matter of minutes.

 

[MarioKartRenderOwner]

THE PEOPLE WHO WANTED BANJO KAZOOIE IN SMASH POSIONED OUR WATER SUPPLIES, BURNED OUR CROPS, AND DELIVERED A PLAUGE UNTO OUR HOUSES

They did?

 

[Deleted member]

Mega Man doesn't exclusively do that though, he has a ton of different moves on top with good visual and audio design to make moves have a better feel of impact, hell, his trailer even emphasized this with his down smash, one of his most satisfying moves to land

I hate to harp on the subject but that's because Mega Man had great visual and audio design 35 years ago on the NES. Banjo Kazooie feels kind of like a demo that got turned into a full game, so when you preserve the nostalgia, you end up with something similar.

As for the simplicity of the moveset, I really don't think that's the case. This post:

hot take: banjo isn’t boring nor basic he has
the neutral b gun stance
grenade item
triple jump
bury etc

really hits the nail on the head. Banjo is a surface level Mario knockoff with a lot of nuance and trickery that's unique to Banjo... Like the games. People are glad when a DLC character doesn't have a comeback mechanic and no one praises Byleth for it because Byleth is a ****ing Fire Emblem character and we're sick of that, so they praise Banjo for apparent simplicity, but picking up Banjo and slapping buttons isn't going to work thanks to how much is going on under the hood.

A specific date isn't anything new. There are countless fake leaks that pin specific dates for no reason. Like, one of PapaGeno's more recent vid showed no less than 3 4chan posts that all guessed we'd get a General Direct on the date that we did.


I don't think it's anything worth thinking about. It's most likely just yet another run of the mill fake leak that got a date correct, that's all.

You're right, **** happens. It's just a lot more fun to figure out if there's a reason for some **** to happen the way it happens.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Mega Man's sound effects are almost all the same as he had in his 8 bit appearances, so I don't really see why it's that much of a problem. It adds character and that charming nostalgia factor we're all after.

That's not entirely true:

• Mega Buster: Uses both source material and Super Smash Bros. sound effects.
• Slide: New sound effect; Slide doesn't make noise on the NES, and it isn't from Mega Man 7 or Mega Man 8.
• Mega Upper: Dunno, but I'd wager it's a new sound effect.
• Charge Shot: Source Material (though IIRC the hit effect is from Super Smash Bros. just like with Mega Buster)
• Spark Shock: Could be from the source material or a new sound effect made to sound like it. The hit effects are from Super Smash Bros. though.
• Flame Burst: New sound effects.

The point here is that exclusively using the sound design from other games is generally not a good idea and there's a reason why it's pretty much just the fighting game characters that do, so I would say the complaint that Banjo & Kazooie's Forward Smash doesn't sound meaty enough would be a valid one, though how sound it is a bit subjective.

 

[RoboFist]

Nevermind, I'm out. The arguments I've seen on here the past few days have been so weird and unfun haha. See you guys in a week or so!

 

[RouffWestie]

THE PEOPLE WHO WANTED BANJO KAZOOIE IN SMASH POSIONED OUR WATER SUPPLIES, BURNED OUR CROPS, AND DELIVERED A PLAUGE UNTO OUR HOUSES

They did?

Yes, but only because Henry the Hippo wanted us to in exchange for a Jiggy we needed to unlock the next world.

 

[volbound1700]

Diablo would be awesome. He’s not my first pick for a Blizzard character but I’d love to see him in Smash. I just wish Blizzard wasn’t such a horrible company. It makes me feel kind of guilty for wanting a character.

I agree. Blizzard was amazing back in the day. I do think their quality has slipped since merging with Activision. Activision does well at driving profits but doesn't have the quality focus that the original Blizzard had in play.

I would agree that perhaps other characters would fit pretty well in Smash. Tracer or Sarah Kerrigan would be bigger additions.

Outside of Spirit Cameos, it does make sense to not necessarily have Blizzard on Switch as most Smash fans would probably not care about Blizzard IP. Blizzard was historically more affiliated with the PC Crowd and Real-Time Strategy games. Strategy Games don't translate well onto Nintendo consoles. Heck, they consider Fire Emblem strategy. Try comparing Fire Emblem with Heart of Iron 4 when it comes to strategic planning and thought.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I hate to harp on the subject but that's because Mega Man had great visual and audio design 35 years ago on the NES. Banjo Kazooie feels kind of like a demo that got turned into a full game, so when you preserve the nostalgia, you end up with something similar.

As for the simplicity of the moveset, I really don't think that's the case. This post:



really hits the nail on the head. Banjo is a surface level Mario knockoff with a lot of nuance and trickery that's unique to Banjo... Like the games. People are glad when a DLC character doesn't have a comeback mechanic and no one praises Byleth for it because Byleth is a ****ing Fire Emblem character and we're sick of that, so they praise Banjo for apparent simplicity, but picking up Banjo and slapping buttons isn't going to work thanks to how much is going on under the hood.


You're right, ** happens. It's just a lot more fun to figure out if there's a reason for some ** to happen the way it happens.

Idk, I feel like liberties could and should have been taken to give moves some more visual flare, like Mega Man's down smash, Flame Burst, having that oomph I want in a kill move with flames shooting upwards with the appropriate visual effect and the cooldown literally having Mega Man cooldown both of his arms with steam rising out... Compared to it's original from MM6, a dinky shot.

 

[ZelDan]

I'm not someone who wanted banjo in Smash (I didn't NOT want him either, I was neutral on the bird and bear), and am not really a Banjo fan (I didn't even bother to play his first game until after his Smash inclusion), but I really see no issues with Banjo's moveset, and I had fun playing with it to the point he's 1 of 20-something characters I bothered to get into elite smash.

 

[Trevenant]

For all those unsure on when Min Min's presentation was recorded, Sakurai confirmed it was May 2nd in the reveal showcase I'm pretty sure. Saying this cos I'm seeing a lot of people saying April etc when it was confirmed to be May

Here it is

 

[Shroob]

For all those unsure on when Min Min's presentation was recorded, Sakurai confirmed it was May 4th in the reveal showcase I'm pretty sure.

Did he?


I knew it had to have been after the latter half of April, due to him dropping a spicy meme that was popular in Japan at that time.

 

[volbound1700]

Going on the Banjo-Kazooie addition, it was BY FAR my favorite addition both DLCs. If I had my way, Masterchief (or Doomguy), Sora, Banjo, Rayman, and Crash would all be in Smash Ultimate.

In fact, probably my #2 favorite character was Hero from the same E3 event. I had NEVER played DQ prior to his addition but I just loved his moveset. I got DQ11 a couple of Christmas' ago and played through it. Enjoyed the game even more than FF7.

Kayuza was a nice addition as well. That is probably my top 3.

 

[Trevenant]

Did he?


I knew it had to have been after the latter half of April, due to him dropping a spicy meme that was popular in Japan at that time.

Yeah I just edited the post to show the link and timestamp. It was May 2nd.

 

[Noipoi]

I’m really happy Banjo’s in Smash.

That is all

 

[N3ON]

I wanted Banjo since 64, I finally got him, I'm completely satisfied with his moveset, and he's my main. Complexity or the lack thereof has little bearing on whether I'd think less of a moveset.

Leaker culture wouldn't be a thing if people were smart enough to completely disregard so-called leaks and laugh them out of the room.

Leaker culture is almost entirely fuelled by

And I don't see that changing any time soon

Okay so the person who originally said a leak is flowing around reaches out to me to tell me what it was.

he says from what he’s heard, Nintendo Canada teased master chief in smash with a image post and then quickly deleted it straight away. He’s saying that if what he heard was true then someone out there will have an image and it’ll probably start to float around within the next couple of days.

that’s if what he heard was true

I'll check with the Prime Minister and see if I can get to the bottom of this.

 

[SKX31]

Wouldn't increasing Kazooie's role in the f-smash necessitate adding additional start-up or ending lag to the move though? And wouldn't doing that just make Banjo's moveset less fun overall by limiting the applicability of f-smash and forcing players to rely more on Wonderwing for KOs?

TBF B-K have other semi-consistent KO setups starting at around the 100 % mark:

• D-Throw -> Up Smash / U-Tilt. Or in stages with tall blast zones, D-Throw -> F-Air / F-Smash. This situation's not going to be harmed much because the bury situation inherently is a mindgame. They did buff Up Tilt's and F-Smash KO power with the Kazuya patch.
• B-Air / N-Air off stage (character dependent). Likewise, B-Air's knockback angle sends lower as a result of the Kazuya patch.
• D-Tilt / F-Smash two frame at ledge* or as a read from edge get up. B-K's ledgetrapping is a notable strength of theirs since they can cover a lot of options while commiting little themselves. D-Tilt sends at a pretty nasty angle for instance. Dash Attack's clean hit can KO a bit later, but is slightly faster than D-Tilt.

I could see them doing that as a result. I know, semi-consistent, but still. * F-Smash coming out later might require the B-K to prep it earlier, but two-frames / edge get ups are not heavily affected by that.

The Kazuya patch did a number of favors for them - I don't think that patch solved every inconsistency issue they have (another issue I'd like to see fixed is U-Air's tendency to drop sometimes), but those buffs help them particularily vs. rushdown characters who can give them some trouble like .

Really late edit: ****, it was the Kazuya patch. I misremembered.

Sidenote now that I think about it, has anyone ever seen other characters get praised specifically for a simple moveset? Like, Greninja, Ridley, Belmont and Byleth come to mind as they have no gameplay gimmicks period unlike Banjo yet I've never seen their movesets praised for that one thing in particular

Wasn't / 's moveset decently well-receved since they had relatively straightforward movesets? I know, transformation character with two different sets of specials, but still. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[7NATOR]

I haven't talked about the DLC Inclusions much here, so I'll give thoughts Quickly

Plant: I was too salty during the whole direct (Due to certain someone being revealed as Assist) to react properly. Viewing it the 2nd time it was of interest. After release Plant can be fun to mess around wit, and I like using Ptooie

Joker: Knew his trailer was Smash related before the invitation showed up, the trailer was too suspicious. I was expecting Sephiroth instead (Should have waited 2 years). I was thinking he use his Persona like a Jojo Stand, not as a power up mode, but his moveset looked cool and intially even labbed out some of his combos

Playing Joker is eh for me these days. I like playing Arsene Joker, but playing regular joker is eh. He's still flashy though and has cool alts

Hero: Between him and Banjo, Hero looked much cooler. Hero is also the closet thing to DBZ we gonna get for long time. Probably the most fun I had with DLC until Sephiroth (then Kazuya) came along. Weirdly don't play him as Much anymore, should probably get to that

Banjo: Didn't look as Cool as Hero, and figured it was him when the Jiggy showed up. I was looking at the trailer in interest, as I was apathetic toward Banjo. Intially when he released, Played him for a bit but he felt eh, so that was that

These days I actually like playing him more now. I think the Simple nature is fun to mess around with. He has big Meaty moves with Smash attacks and wonderwing. His Jab is really funny also

 

[volbound1700]

Leaker culture is almost entirely fuelled by

And I don't see that changing any time soon

Yeah and this is why they are so toxic. For example, a lot of people would love to see a big WESTERN IP such as Crash in Smash but it just doesn't seem to be happening. Leakers prey on that.

 

[GilTheGreat19]

What in the World (of Light) did I miss

 

[Noipoi]

What in the World (of Light) did I miss

Colors weaved into a spire of flame.

Y’know, the usual.

 

[volbound1700]

I mean...the Belmonts were praised for feeling like they did in Castlevania, almost to a fault. Their aerials are poor, their whips have a decent amount of start-up lag, etc. Competitively, these are weaknesses, but to fans? It feels good to play because it feels like Castlevania.

That's how I feel about them, Mega Man, Sonic, and especially B&K. I picked them up the night they dropped and felt like I immediately knew how to use their moveset because it felt like playing Tooie (only obviously much faster).

I've never won a tourney with them, but I also suck at this game and never win tourneys anyway haha. But I have gotten farther with B&K at a local than I had with any other character before. That personally doesn't matter to me. I like how they feel like they do in their games, which is enough for me and a lot of Rare fans.

I guess the difference between the two mindsets - "is this character automatically top tier?" vs "do I like this character enough to get good at them in Smash?" - is a different conversion altogether.

Sonic in Brawl was awful. Did not feel like Sonic. I think he has improved but I don't get the feel of the Sonic series when I play him. His spin dash should be easier to control and nearly unbreakable. That tends to be his greatest weakness. They got the homing down well and I like the up "B". It is his spin dash that is all wrong. I think the issue is that if Sonic played like his games, he might be a little OP in the Smash format.

 

[Shroob]

Truth be told, we're not out of the ballpark in regards to leaks.


With 8 days left, and how much they're hyping up this presentation, all it'd take is one guy to ruin everything.

 

[Super Devon]

Ok so about that Sora 4chan rumor (I refuse to call it a leak as this is just a person saying things)

I’m very sure it’s false, the lineup of Fighters Pass vol 2 was completed at the very start of the pass, so it’s not hard to assume that negotiations with other companies were taken care of at that point as well.

 

[GalacticPetey]

I thought people's main issue with Banjo was less that the moveset was "boring" and more that it's annoying to fight against because it almost entirely revolves around zoning with his two projectiles and brain dead moves like wonderwing.

I also haven't been keeping up with competitive Ultimate so I may be out of the loop.