Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Shroob]

Depends on what they want to do with Smash. If we end up seeing a hard reboot of the franchise in the next game, we might see the end of Gamecube controller support. The Wii had a lot of controllers, which necessitated Brawl's support for just about everything, and since the Wii controllers worked with the Wii U, they continued the trend. Since the Gamecube controller has been able to haunt every Nintendo console since its inception, I think they keep it for tradition at this point... But if Smash stops growing and refocuses, is there tradition to keep?

8 player is definitely emblematic of the Wii U era, being the "hey look at how cool this feature is, it's unique to the Wii U version of the 3DS game you already have" of Smash 4... And is probably unfortunately here to stay. It's not something I enjoy and it has actively been a detriment to the game in the past and I think it probably still was this time. There's always going to be a limit to how much crap you can have on screen at once and if Nintendo insists on keeping their hardware a generation behind "standard", it's going to chug under the weight of what's going on in a Smash game. I have to wonder if they brought it back because it was an easy feature to port over and add to the "everyone is here" shtick or if they just like the idea of it.

I mean, it was an issue in the past, but Ultimate pretty comfortably supports fully functioning 8 player Smash now.


It's really just meant for like, parties and whatnot, not meant to be taken too seriously or put too much thought into.

 

[Noipoi]

Tomorrow then.

The one week mark


Definitely doesn’t mean anything but this is the last week of speculation, I’m gonna speculate damnit.

 

[Deleted member]

I mean, it was an issue in the past, but Ultimate pretty comfortably supports fully functioning 8 player Smash now.


It's really just meant for like, parties and whatnot, not meant to be taken too seriously or put too much thought into.

Weird to think the game can comfortably support 8 players on screen at once but can't comfortably support Wario on his bike in Fountain of Dreams.

 

[blackghost]

hot take: banjo isn’t boring nor basic he has
the neutral b gun stance
grenade item
triple jump
bury etc

you mean an ability that mutiple other characters have (sometimes more than one)
and I'm not giving you triple jump. LOL.

as for banjo dont find him interesting at all. I think there's a way to do a relatively simple moveset and still make it engaging (sepiroth) and banjo just doesn't do it for me in that regard. I think the character floats by on nostalgia.

also i think some peopel get overely dramtic about these 3rd parties having more mechnics and stuff mostly becuase Nintendo games inherently thrive on complex simplicity. most Nintendo games dont have a lot of mechnics intheir platfomers or other games. outside of smash the most mechanically complex games ive seen from nintendo are breathe of the wild, splatoon, battlion wars and mario plus rabbids.

when you compare that to bayonetta, tekken, persona, or dragon quest to get those characters to feel like thier source games they need more to go on.

 

[TyrantLizardKing]

Hold the phone.

There's Banjo hate now?

BANJO HATE?

Holy crap, I still remember the absurd amounts of hype behind him just 2 years ago. Everyone and their dogs had him as their number 1 most wanted.
Every list on youtube would end up like ".. and 1#... Banjo! Such an important character yada yada yada".

And now there's hate?

In the inverse thought, I remember the amount of salt produced when Byleth made it, and now you search "Smash Tournament" on youtube and he's/she's consistently in them.

Interesting.... Interesting indeed.

Every and I mean EVERY character has haters. But the thing about popular requests especially is that once they're in, the people requesting them are satisfied and thus go silent because they're off enjoying what they finally got. That space gets filled by angry people looking for any sort of reason to hate on those people because they're no longer vocal. It becomes a one-dimensional argument as more like-minded (or vilification-seeking) people join in to agree that their viewpoint is correct without opposition.

While all of that is happening, I'm grinding Dark Samus on Elite Smash because I'm happy she's playable and want to make the most of my enjoyment.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

There's not much I can add about Banjo-Kazooie's inclusion that hasn't already been said, but their inclusion is a triumph not just because of their journey to get there but also because quite frankly it was nice having a throwback character circa 64/Melee in the mix.

The complexity of Smash Fighters is something to be praised, and it's allowed it a variety far beyond what any of us could have imagined, but unique mechanic after unique mechanic can be a little much at times, and for casual Smash BK was a godsend in easily jumping in. There are other characters I'm better with, but they're the DLC character I've had the most fun with.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Depends on what they want to do with Smash. If we end up seeing a hard reboot of the franchise in the next game, we might see the end of Gamecube controller support. The Wii had a lot of controllers, which necessitated Brawl's support for just about everything, and since the Wii controllers worked with the Wii U, they continued the trend. Since the Gamecube controller has been able to haunt every Nintendo console since its inception, I think they keep it for tradition at this point... But if Smash stops growing and refocuses, is there tradition to keep?

They keep it because people are still buying the controllers that they're selling. That's pretty much it from what I've seen.

8 player is definitely emblematic of the Wii U era, being the "hey look at how cool this feature is, it's unique to the Wii U version of the 3DS game you already have" of Smash 4... And is probably unfortunately here to stay. It's not something I enjoy and it has actively been a detriment to the game in the past and I think it probably still was this time. There's always going to be a limit to how much crap you can have on screen at once and if Nintendo insists on keeping their hardware a generation behind "standard", it's going to chug under the weight of what's going on in a Smash game. I have to wonder if they brought it back because it was an easy feature to port over and add to the "everyone is here" shtick or if they just like the idea of it.

It hasn't though? The only major things it's effected are the existence of certain stages (Palutena's Temple and The Great Cave Offensive) and Pyra/Mythra. I'm not sure I'd consider that an active detriment.

 

[Shroob]

Weird to think the game can comfortably support 8 players on screen at once but can't comfortably support Wario on his bike in Fountain of Dreams.

Fountain of Dreams is just a rendering nightmare.

 

[N3ON]

Hold the phone.

There's Banjo hate now?

BANJO HATE?

Holy crap, I still remember the absurd amounts of hype behind him just 2 years ago. Everyone and their dogs had him as their number 1 most wanted.
Every list on youtube would end up like ".. and 1#... Banjo! Such an important character yada yada yada".

And now there's hate?

In the inverse thought, I remember the amount of salt produced when Byleth made it, and now you search "Smash Tournament" on youtube and he's/she's consistently in them.

Interesting.... Interesting indeed.

C'mon man, criticism and hate aren't the same thing.

It's just Banjo's day in the "retrospective", and I'm sure some non-complimentary things were said about the three who preceded him as well during the last few days. Just wait until Byleth's day.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

C'mon man, criticism and hate aren't the same thing.

It's just Banjo's day in the "retrospective", and I'm sure some non-complimentary things were said about the three who preceded him as well during the last few days. Just wait until Byleth's day.

Joker's day was pretty silent, but Piranha Plant's day had a notable argument, and Hero had a few longer posts written by a few different people instead because everyone agreed with the points made.

Yeah I'm not looking forward to Byleth's day. It's likely to be like Piranha Plant's day, but worse.

 

[blackghost]

Hold the phone.

There's Banjo hate now?

BANJO HATE?

Holy crap, I still remember the absurd amounts of hype behind him just 2 years ago. Everyone and their dogs had him as their number 1 most wanted.
Every list on youtube would end up like ".. and 1#... Banjo! Such an important character yada yada yada".

And now there's hate?

In the inverse thought, I remember the amount of salt produced when Byleth made it, and now you search "Smash Tournament" on youtube and he's/she's consistently in them.

Interesting.... Interesting indeed.

Sorry, they can buck up and deal with the hate. im from the wrong playerbase to give any sympathy at all.

next there's ia TON of dissonance with the FE characters. in the casual games i played in college and with friends and family sword users are always popular and man of the girls introduced gravitated to the FE characters because and i quote "marth and roy are pretty"

the nfe characters have been popular since they were added in melee and no one knew who they were but you either die a hero or live long enough to become the villain.

 

[Deleted member]

They keep it because people are still buying the controllers that they're selling. That's pretty much it from what I've seen.


It hasn't though? The only major things it's effected are the existence of certain stages (Palutena's Temple and The Great Cave Offensive) and Pyra/Mythra. I'm not sure I'd consider that an active detriment.

ICs got completely removed and transforming characters got reworked thanks to 8 player in Smash 4, and while I think all of the PT Pokemon should be standalone, I would have liked to see the Samus/ZSS and Zelda/Sheik combination characters turned into something more akin to Pyra/Mythra (except without being overtly busted) rather than separated. What's done is done, ICs are back, etc etc...

 

[Dukefire]

So far on looking at prediction videos, Sora seems to be the hot topic of being the finale character. Honestly, even the most requested characters isn't guaranteed to be a fighter.

 

[Theguy123]

The fact we still have yet to have a Swordfighter tourney when we've had both projectiles and hand to hand combat is odd.



Watch it be tonight's.

i hope it doesn’t. The sword tourney and gunner tourney being missing is one of the main things giving me hope for Layton since he wields both. Having them missing gives Me the hope that the last fighter both. I don’t think I’m prepared to be crushed by a tournament event of all things.

 

[SKX31]

I'm convinced they made Mach Tornado super lame on purpose in the later installments to hit home that the character is hard to play.

Either that or Mach Tornado was a noob killer. Perhaps both.

I mean, Brawl Mach Tornado could just be its own ****ing character and it'd be top tier:

• Mach Tornado, which is a strong contender for most overpowered special move in smash history (yes, even compared to Super Smash Bros WiiU/3DS's most infamous custom moves and Witch Time). It is highly damaging and fast, has an incredibly large hitbox that blocks attacks and covers everywhere but above Meta Knight, and recovers almost instantly, which makes it difficult (if not impossible for some characters) to punish. It's not hyperbole to say that the viability of many characters and competitive players in Brawl hinged on their ability to counter this attack, and spamming it, while sure to piss people off in a venue, was sometimes a viable competitive strategy. This would ensure that the move got brutally nerfed in Smash 4, losing much of its movement range (especially vertical) and has much more recovery time if he lands shortly after the move ends, making it much easier to punish.

This TV tropes sub-bullet doesn't include a few of its other nastier side effects:

• It ate shield like crazy. Likewise it could beat any other defensive option due to it being fast as ****.
• Final hit sent upwards, which was perfect for Meta Knight since he could just spam Up Air or go with Shuttle Loop (which was its own can of worms).
• Due to the above it could be used as a follow up from air camping, a favored activity vs. Brawl's chaingrabbers like .

So it's no wonder that Sakurai took that move and sent it straight into the "Rework ASAP" pile.

They keep it because people are still buying the controllers that they're selling. That's pretty much it from what I've seen.

It does help that Melee was the best selling GC game bar none and the Melee fanbase has helped keep the GC controllers in high demand (to the point where Armada straight up quit a tournament since his controller wasn't malfunctioning properly).

C'mon man, criticism and hate aren't the same thing.

It's just Banjo's day in the "retrospective", and I'm sure some non-complimentary things were said about the three who preceded him as well during the last few days. Just wait until Byleth's day.

Joker's day was pretty silent, but Piranha Plant's day had a notable argument, and Hero had a few longer posts written by a few different people instead because everyone agreed with the points made.

Yeah I'm not looking forward to Byleth's day. It's likely to be like Piranha Plant's day, but worse.

I might consider including stuff like videos / GIFs of MKLeo's Byle-

On second though, I should perhaps avoid that.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Fountain of Dreams is just a rendering nightmare.

Yup. The environment is extremely detailed, and everything in the top half (including the fighters) is rendered twice because that's how reflections work without ray tracing. The technology was barely there for this stage to come back.

ICs got completely removed and transforming characters got reworked thanks to 8 player in Smash 4, and while I think all of the PT Pokemon should be standalone, I would have liked to see the Samus/ZSS and Zelda/Sheik combination characters turned into something more akin to Pyra/Mythra (except without being overtly busted) rather than separated. What's done is done, ICs are back, etc etc...

Actually these are all changes made because of the 3Ds version.

 

[Shroob]

i hope it doesn’t. The sword tourney and gunner tourney being missing is one of the main things giving me hope for Layton since he wields both. Having them missing gives Me the hope that the last fighter both. I don’t think I’m prepared to be crushed by a tournament event of all things.

The projectile tournament was back in Feb iirc.

 

[Deleted member]

Actually these are all changes made because of the 3Ds version.

Hmm... You might be onto something.

Smash 4 just ruined everything.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Hmm... You might be onto something.

Smash 4 just ruined everything.

*Smash 3DS

They were working on Wii U, but since Sakurai wanted them both to have the same roster, 3DS's shortcomings got them axed entirely, as far as I understand.

 

[Theguy123]

The projectile tournament was back in Feb iirc.

View attachment 331831

true so it holds no bareing on FP11 anyways but the projectile tournament isn’t a gunner tournament as well. We’ve got enough fighters for a gunner only tournament. I personally don’t count the projectile tournament as a gunner tournament since it’s themed around projectile fighters and not gunner fighters

 

[Shroob]

*Smash 3DS

They were working on Wii U, but since Sakurai wanted them both to have the same roster, 3DS's shortcomings got them axed entirely, as far as I understand.

Bless the 3DS' heart, but it just wasn't made for Smash.

 

[Deleted member]

Bless the 3DS' heart, but it just wasn't made for Smash.

I agree with this, but I actually preferred the 3DS version's gameplay. Sakurai was right, they really were different games.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Never played Banjo so I can’t really comment on anything like that, but I will say that it was really cool to see so many people lose it over what was thought to be a pipe dream for so long. Maybe I’ll play it after I beat OoT on N64 Online.

Can’t say I like their moveset, bit too spammy for my liking, but its not that big a deal.

 

[BlondeLombax]

I wonder if the ICs' nerfs in Ultimate were actually going to be implemented in the last game(s), they seemed pretty focused on balancing everything and everyone out.

Also, we can all agree that at least Smash Run kicked ass, right?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

*Smash 3DS

They were working on Wii U, but since Sakurai wanted them both to have the same roster, 3DS's shortcomings got them axed entirely, as far as I understand.

Smash Wii U gave us Smash Tour so it shall be hung on a cross for it's sins

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Hmm... You might be onto something.

Smash 4 just ruined everything.

*Smash 3DS

They were working on Wii U, but since Sakurai wanted them both to have the same roster, 3DS's shortcomings got them axed entirely, as far as I understand.

Well, the two versions were a massive development sync, and the Nintendo 3Ds couldn't handle everything that even the GameCube could, so some stuff had to get the axe. On top of that, the Nintendo 3Ds got all the best ideas in terms of single player content, leaving the Wii U with a jank Classic Mode and Smash Tour...

Yeah in hindsight the simultaneous development thing probably wasn't the best idea.

I wonder if the ICs' nerfs in Ultimate were actually going to be implemented in the last game(s), they seemed pretty focused on balancing everything and everyone out.

Probably. They really didn't want there to be another wobbling or chain grab fiasco again.

"Oops zero to death combos. Guess you'll need to tweak us even more!"

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

true so it holds no bareing on FP11 anyways but the projectile tournament isn’t a gunner tournament as well. We’ve got enough fighters for a gunner only tournament. I personally don’t count the projectile tournament as a gunner tournament since it’s themed around projectile fighters and not gunner fighters

The thing with Gunner characters is that a lot of characters that use a gun of some kind usually only use it for like one or a handful of attacks? Rather than being super focused on it like Mii Gunner.

K. Rool only uses it for Blunderbuss, Banjo only uses Kazooie as a gun for Breegull Blaster, Joker uses his gun for one move, Bayonetta has Bullet Arts and Bullet Climax, Samus and Dark Samus use it mainly just for Charge Shot and Missiles, Mega Man uses his for pellets, FSmash, and Crash Bomber, Fox, Falco, and Wolf use their guns for neutral special and some throws, Inkling for neutral special and I guess the Blaster used for Up Smash? etc etc

There are definitely a number of characters that USE guns, which is probably the point (there's like 13 by my count?) but I wouldn't specifically call any of them gunners is what I'm getting at lol

 

[Guybrush20X6]

What in the World (of Light) did I miss

Apparently Banjo Kazooie is the worst somehow? I lost track half way through.

 

[BlondeLombax]

Apparently Banjo Kazooie is the worst somehow? I lost track half way through.

All fighters are good in my eyes. Not a single character I loathe on the roster. I might be alone on this front, but I'm standing my ground.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Apparently Banjo Kazooie is the worst somehow? I lost track half way through.

Just design criticisms. Nobody here hates the character to my knowledge.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Fountain of Dreams is just a rendering nightmare.

A Nightmare in Dreamland.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

All fighters are good in my eyes. Not a single character I loathe on the roster. I might be alone on this front, but I'm standing my ground.

Same. I have my criticisms (even on certain inclusions), but I don't really dislike any of Super Smash Bros.'s characters, and I don't think I ever will; If you add someone I'm probably going to connect with them on some level.

IMO:

Character design bad? Fix by retooling or rebalancing.
Character inclusion bad? Fix by adding more characters.

A Nightmare in Dreamland.

This time on "Puns that Make You Lose HP!"

 

[Mamboo07]

A Nightmare in Dreamland.

Dreamare in Nightland

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Dreamare in Nightland

Nightmare in "AAAAAHHH NOW I CAN'T SEE ANYTHING!!!"

 

[Sucumbio]

"Use whatever controller you want" kinda game.

Except the wii chuck combo which is what I use.. Had to buy that adapter and I can't map smash keys to the dpad so this game called ultimate I've had to learn how to compete with no csticking. I hate to think how many techniques I've missed out on not having smash keys lol.

 

[SKX31]

I wonder if the ICs' nerfs in Ultimate were actually going to be implemented in the last game(s), they seemed pretty focused on balancing everything and everyone out.

Chaingrabbing was never intentional - I feel rather confident saying that it was going to be removed in 4 regardless of whether ICs returned or not. Not only since they patched it with a "characters are immune to any grabs for 1.1 seconds after escaping from a grab or being throw" clause. And included a tip about it too - the tip is pretty much official confirmation, and yes this tip is in Ultimate's tip section (in the Vault). But also since:

• Some chaingrabs could force extensive tech chases, like , and . That can easily become really irritating for the one being chain grabbed fast.
• Some of Brawl's chaingrabs could get really silly - especially its pummel / grab release shenaningas. I have no idea if this ever occured on Brawl's online, but I wouldn't be surprised if this actually happened on unsuspecting people every now and then.

Also, we can all agree that at least Smash Run kicked ass, right?

Yes, Smash Run was great. I would really like to see it return one day when a more powerful system can handle all four participants being able to meet each other on the field, or the ability to customize the final battle.

Oh and allowing Smash Run to be played by up to 8 players would help a lot.

I'd be surprised if Gamecube controller support is dropped. Possible, but they've brought it back for 3 games in a row now, and Smash has always been a "Use whatever controller you want" kinda game.

And I've always appriciated that, partly since it's given us moments like this:

 

[BlondeLombax]

Yes, Smash Run was great. I would really like to see it return one day when a more powerful system can handle all four participants being able to meet each other on the field, or the ability to customize the final battle.

Oh and allowing Smash Run to be played by up to 8 players would help a lot.

I've had a few ideas for that actually. Two new gamemodes built on that precedent.

First, there's "Smash Party," where the fighters would actually work together to bulk up for the sake of taking on a boss once the timer runs out. They'd still be able to meet, but they wouldn't be able to hurt one another, and in fact, the challenge doors could be cooperative.

As for the second idea... well, it's a Battle Royale. Last man standing in the field wins. I know it might miff a lot of people, but it genuinely sounds like it could be an interesting game. But you know, I still haven't figured out how many fighters at once would be in play. 50? 99? 64?

 

[MarioRaccoon]

If Sora is a mii costume, wouldn’t they put them in Kazuya mii wave? It was clearly themed as “popular request characters” and he is a popular request. Unless CP11 mii costume wave is also another “popular characters that were made mii costumes to pleased fans” and well, that would validate Sora…

 

[Lamperouge]

Bit late to the Banjo discussion but I think he's pretty funny even if I don't enjoy playing him all that much.

 

[MooMew64]

Banjo's moveset feels fine to me TBH.

I don't really know how else you'd make them. 3D platformer movesets are meant to be simple, so it makes sense translating that to a Smash moveset would be similar.