Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[TwiceEXE]

The Souls series has been around as long as Minecraft, so I don't see how you can argue it's too new for DLC representation.

 

[Dinoman96]

Hey, Smash credits the Aria of the Soul remix to Revelations: Persona. That's gotta count for something, right?

 

[osby]

The Souls series has been around as long as Minecraft, so I don't see how you can argue it's too new for DLC representation.

By moving the goalpost and claiming that Minecraft is too big and therefore an exception, duh.

If you can argue that a 2016 character is a legacy pick, you can argue anything.

 

[MattX20]

The Tales series is the 3rd biggest JRPG series of all time in Japan, and celebrated its 25th anniversary this year. Lloyd's part of the entry of the series that is basically its own equivalent to FF7 in that it's the most popular entry of the series with Western fans as well as a sequel for the Wii and a whole lot of other things. Xenosaga's legacy is important as KOS-MOS herself has shown up many times in various other Bandai Namco titles on top how important the series is to MonolithSoft and how it also helped lead to the creation of the Xenoblade series. Soul Calibur is a massive IP with significant legacy as far as fighting games go, and Nightmare is the mascot/most iconic character of that series. Ryu Hayabusa's part of what is arguably the last legacy series from the NES era that has yet to be included in Smash so far, and the last NES era legacy series represented so far is Castlevania. Crash Bandicoot is arguably the last really big gaming mascot if one doesn't include Master Chief as he was the unofficial mascot of the PS1 on top of being part of a series of incredibly well received games in the 90's

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Saying Dark Souls has a strong legacy on here truly is the Dark Souls of Smash Speculation

 

[dream1ng]

The Tales series is the 3rd biggest JRPG series of all time in Japan, and celebrated its 25th anniversary this year. Lloyd's part of the entry of the series that is basically its own equivalent to FF7 in that it's the most popular entry of the series with Western fans as well as a sequel for the Wii and a whole lot of other things. Xenosaga's legacy is important as KOS-MOS herself has shown up many times in various other Bandai Namco titles on top how important the series is to MonolithSoft and how it also helped lead to the creation of the Xenoblade series. Soul Calibur is a massive IP with significant legacy as far as fighting games go, and Nightmare is the mascot/most iconic character of that series. Ryu Hayabusa's part of what is arguably the last legacy series from the NES era that has yet to be included in Smash so far, and the last NES era legacy series represented so far is Castlevania. Crash Bandicoot is arguably the last really big gaming mascot if one doesn't include Master Chief as he was the unofficial mascot of the PS1 on top of being part of a series of incredibly well received games in the 90's

No offence but this post sort of proves how you can do this with any halfway plausible series.

 

[Eldrake]

So I had yet another smash dream this night, and I remember more bits of this one than the other dreams. This one was a smash presentation revealing Dante as the fourth DLC fighter (his reveal trailer had him saving some fighters from Dracula's second form and beating him up, including a brief shot of him doing so in first person, then revealing that it's Dante taking on Dracula), and showing off Dante going up and beyond the mere concept of smash movesets by having 24 special moves. The Mii Costumes that came with him was Nero, Vergil, the Monster Hunters, Lloyd, Viewtiful Joe and a Doom Slayer PreMiium based on the action figure you can find in Doom 2016 and with the E1M1 soundtrack. This presentation was a bit unusual because unlike the other presentations it ended with an announcement for the next fighter.

The next fighter, singlehandedly fighting their way through Bowser's, K. Rool's and Ganondorf's armies of iconic mook enemies (plus a brief shot of Piranha Plant getting smashed right into the stratosphere) and making their way to these three bosses before we finally get to see their identity, is... an Orc Grunt from Warcraft. Not a named Warcraft character, not even a named Orc character such as Thrall, just a generic Orc Grunt. No gameplay footage. The entire internet was in complete shock and confusion at this reveal because absolutely nobody ever saw this coming, but I do remember a Smashboards post with 50+ likes saying something along the lines of "At least we finally got an axe fighter."

 

[MattX20]

No offence but this post sort of proves how you can do this with any halfway plausible series.

You're missing the point of my post. Nintendo and Sakurai tend to pick characters from franchises/series with a decent history to them, and more contemporary IPs like Bayonetta and Minecraft are more the exception rather than the rule and it also helped they were owned by companies that had content in Smash during their respective cycles.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

In all seriousness, according to Wikipedia, Kingdom Hearts' total sales are 30 million. Souls, as in, Demon Souls and Dark Souls, is 29 million. If we count Bloodborne (2 million) and Sekiro (5 million) then that's 36 million. Even if you want to pretend that it doesn't have legacy despite everyone knowing Dark Souls and it's influence on game design due to being infamously punishing

 

[Nekoo]

Souls series technically started with Demon Souls in 2009, and the oldest game directly referenced in Joker's pack is Persona 3,

Aha.
Yes.

Revelation: Persona, I forgot it was a 2006 masterpiece

 

[osby]

Aha.
Yes.

Revelation: Persona, I forgot it was a 2006 masterpiece

I'll acknowledge the first game when it gets anything more than a recurring character's Spirit and a music track in Smash, both of them being a part of P3.

Like, "Persona started with third installment" jokes are stale but as far as Smash is concerned, they might as well be true.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

Lloyd, I think. He has two swords, something that's only really been tried once, while Yuri only has one. Granted, Yuri has some martial arts and acrobatics, but Lloyd I think has more room for uniqueness. Yuri can also use an axe, but it doesn't have much gameplay changes and he's as much of an axe fighter as Ike. At best he'd probably just trade out his sword for an axe in an alt.

I fail to see how just havinv two swords is more uniqe then doing flips, doing cartwheels, while also punching people and throwing your sword as you attack

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

Bayonetta as franchise was a little over six years old when said titular character was confirmed for 4.

Yet a franchise turning ten next year like Dark Souls is still considered "too new"?

 

[I.D.]

We really need a legacy points measure system
Like every series starts with a certain score based on number of units sold and then points get subtracted based on a quadratic equation taking into account number of years it didn't exist since 1981, when King Miyamoto invented videogames.

 

[TwiceEXE]

I think boiling DLC selection down to "the series has been around for a long time" is overly reductionist. The series have lasted that long because they are big/influential. It stands to reason that they are being added to Smash because of their influence, not some arbitrary "you must be this old to ride" criteria.

 

[Commander_Alph]

The Tales series is the 3rd biggest JRPG series of all time in Japan, and celebrated its 25th anniversary this year. Lloyd's part of the entry of the series that is basically its own equivalent to FF7 in that it's the most popular entry of the series with Western fans as well as a sequel for the Wii and a whole lot of other things. Xenosaga's legacy is important as KOS-MOS herself has shown up many times in various other Bandai Namco titles on top how important the series is to MonolithSoft and how it also helped lead to the creation of the Xenoblade series. Soul Calibur is a massive IP with significant legacy as far as fighting games go, and Nightmare is the mascot/most iconic character of that series. Ryu Hayabusa's part of what is arguably the last legacy series from the NES era that has yet to be included in Smash so far, and the last NES era legacy series represented so far is Castlevania. Crash Bandicoot is arguably the last really big gaming mascot if one doesn't include Master Chief as he was the unofficial mascot of the PS1 on top of being part of a series of incredibly well received games in the 90's

That is as easy as reading a history book but just like reading a history book, you don't know if some information is important or not.

"the last legacy series from the NES era"
"has shown up many times in various other Bandai Namco titles"

I don't know if that is an achievement or just an extra brownie point because everything have to be important to the gaming world says a nitpicker out there or to further push their agenda of being "deserving".





Granted I could do the same thing like how Touhou is the first and oldest Indie game in the world that still active to this day and has a large following on 1 country where the game was created, the perfect embodiment of independent develop game and fan creation, win a Guiness World Record and the official printed media is present on a museum somewhere in Europe. Digimon is probably one of the most well known contender to Pokemon back in the early days and represent the Bandai side of Bandai-Namco, with Pac-Man being owned by Namco and Tamagotchi which actually very influential in the genre of life simulation, it has several anime and dozens of game and is easily the second most popular game from Bandai-Namco. Dynasty Warriors first started as a fighting but later, in it's 2nd installment adapt the gameplay style known as Musou games which later influence the making of Hyrule Warriors in partnership with Nintendo (goes on to be a successful game that even spawn a sequel which made Nintendo baffled by themselves), Dragon Quest Heroes in partnership with Square Enix which is the most influential RPG and several Gundam game in partnership with Bandai-Namco and is basically Koei-Tecmo's flagship franchise and the ones help their relationship between company even closer, the series also held a crossover spin-off containing several Koei-Tecmo's game like Atelier (before the Ryza game was made), Dead or Alive and of course Ninja Gaiden which further push the idea even further.

(Don't take this personally)

 

[Perkilator]

The whole company deserves to suffer for ruining DBFZ.

Right. The base roster that ArcSys got to pick, before BN realized they had a megahit on their hands and made the DLC for the game the same trash they've done for all their other DB games.

All that proves is that the DB fans are just as terrible as BN.

Wow…that’s actually cruel.

 

[Opossum]

I think that Euden is unlikely, because it would be weird to promote a game that is outright illegal in certain parts of the world.

Fire Emblem Heroes has two songs in Ultimate and got name dropped with the rest of the series in Byleth's presentation. The game is also banned in Belgium due to their recently-updated gambling laws affecting gacha games.

There are numerous legitimate reasons why a Dragalia Lost character almost certainly isn't happening (literally never released in Europe, split ownership with CyGames, general unpopularity to the point where it only makes 10% of what FEH makes in a good month, etc), but gacha legality in certain countries likely isn't one of them.

 

[Ornl]

Tales & Bamco series had shy aspects in Famitsu polls. I think questioning Japanese readers in the field of 3rd-JRPG can be helpful.

JRPGs are colored yellow.
• Number of appearances in a 2016 poll – FF: 17 - DQ: 12 - Pokémon: 9 - SMT/Persona: 9 - Monster Hunter: 6 - TLoZ: 6 - Sakura Wars: 5 - SSB: 4 - SaGa: 2 - Tales: 2 - SoulCalibur: 1 - Souls: 0 - Tekken: 0 - Xenosaga: 0.
• Number of appearances in a 2017 poll – FF: 12 - DQ: 6 - SMT/Persona: 5 - TLoZ: 4 - SaGa: 3 - Sakura Wars: 3 - Monster Hunter: 2 - Pokémon: 2 - Souls: 1 - SSB: 1 - SoulCalibur: 0 - Tales: 0 - Tekken: 0 - Xenosaga: 0.

Among the various series from Bamco, Sakurai hesitated with Tekken, and PlayStation All Stars Battle Royale chose Tekken. Heihachi was in my opinion the most likely one, so I don't think Bamco will offer Tales/Xenosaga/SoulCalibur/Souls to the Japanese players instead.

 

[Perkilator]

Fire Emblem Heroes has two songs in Ultimate and got name dropped with the rest of the series in Byleth's presentation. The game is also banned in Belgium due to their recently-updated gambling laws affecting gacha games.

There are numerous legitimate reasons why a Dragalia Lost character almost certainly isn't happening (literally never released in Europe, split ownership with CyGames, general unpopularity to the point where it only makes 10% of what FEH makes in a good month, etc), but gacha legality in certain countries likely isn't one of them.

Whatever the case, can’t wait for dumb people to accuse Sakurai of committing a crime even though he already has a couple songs from a game that’s already banned in Belgium (and for reasons beyond FEH’s control, at that).

 

[JamesDNaux]

Exactly. The difference is that DBFZ looks and plays amazing and doesn't deserve to be saddled with mediocre arena fighter roster.

Especially when so many unique and interesting characters are getting skipped over so they can have 10 Gokus.

Man, that sounds terrible. It'd be like if Smash had two Marios and three Links.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

I think for all of those people who put weight into fan rules, need to go ahead and watch this video:

Anything the community says is impossible is not unless Sakurai says so since he is the one that makes the rules for Smash.

 

[Deleted member]

Best Dragalia gets is a Euden Mii Costume & Spirit Event and I don’t know why people pretend otherwise. I’m sorry but if your game isn’t available worldwide it’s not going to get a playable character. It stopped Takamaru in 4, Marth/Roy were going to be Japan exclusive in Melee, and Lucas was only added because Sakurai didn’t know Mother 3 was Japan only.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

1) Yesterday when I mentioned Rex, it wasn’t because I think he’s likely. I don’t think he is because despite recent events relating to Smash, I don’t think they would have added a Rex costume as a bonus if they were going to make him a fully fledged character.

It’s similar to why I don’t think Tails or Knuckles have a shot. If they sell Mii costumes, the likelihood of inclusion drops significantly in my eyes.

Basically, if the concept is that KOS-MOS could happen because Nintendo would want to promote Xeno, but it would make far more sense to promote Rex for that, then they would probably add Rex, or neither.

2) Please, please, please PLEASE drop fan rules. Nobody seriously considers anything a “rule” other than silly Twitter people who called Ridley too big. The amount of times somebody has referred to something they mention as a “rule” to be followed is massively outnumbered by the times people complain about fan rules, and it isn’t close.

It’s a boogeyman kept alive by people for who knows why. Drop it, I beg you.

3) Tales protagonists will likely have uniqueness in their combo game, but considering characters flip, punch, and throw things throughout the game, I think folks are massively overrating Yuri’s uniqueness. I’ve watched videos of him, and he looks cool. But to make it sound like he’s going to be this character that shakes up the swordsman game seems a bit excessive.

I will probably play Vesperia early next year, which will help me to get an idea of Yuri. I currently still prefer Lloyd for a variety of reasons but I just don’t feel like going over that.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I think for all of those people who put weight into fan rules, need to go ahead and watch this video:

Anything the community says is impossible is not unless Sakurai says so since he is the one that makes the rules for Smash.

The title alone seems super pretentious as it srems to be yet another case of the people being obsessed with fan rules being the people who try to call everything they don't like a fan rule. There's nothing to learn about an argument that's literally "nuh uh", especially as these people also cling onto 'fanrules' for characters they don't like

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Literally the fact that I was called out for pushing “fan rules” when I have never done so, tells me all I need to know about the topic.

It’s just a shorthand term for, “I disagree with a popular idea and it is accepted by a lot of people so I have to shoot it down somehow”.

Just talk about what you want. Nobody is telling you that you can’t talk about it. If you can’t convince people that your idea is super cool, then change your delivery. It’s not my fault people agree with things I say and not others.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

I’m sorry but if your game isn’t available worldwide it’s not going to get a playable character.

Good thing I don't have to worry about that supporting Cortez because TimeSplitters 2 was released in Japan so it's a worldwide game.

Time to Split!

 

[TwiceEXE]

Anything the community says is impossible is not unless Sakurai says so since he is the one that makes the rules for Smash.

Oh boy, I can't wait for next DLC character: Big Lucina. It's just Lucina, but bigger! If you don't agree that she's coming you're just making fan rules!~~~

It gets pretty tiring when people say "anything is possible" as if that is a carte blanche reason to not discuss what is probable with Smash. What is probable is what we are trying to discuss and the more you try and shut down conversation by shouting "FAN RULES!" the less likely people are to listen to you.

 

[Jomosensual]

So I had yet another smash dream this night, and I remember more bits of this one than the other dreams. This one was a smash presentation revealing Dante as the fourth DLC fighter (his reveal trailer had him saving some fighters from Dracula's second form and beating him up, including a brief shot of him doing so in first person, then revealing that it's Dante taking on Dracula), and showing off Dante going up and beyond the mere concept of smash movesets by having 24 special moves. The Mii Costumes that came with him was Nero, Vergil, the Monster Hunters, Lloyd, Viewtiful Joe and a Doom Slayer PreMiium based on the action figure you can find in Doom 2016 and with the E1M1 soundtrack. This presentation was a bit unusual because unlike the other presentations it ended with an announcement for the next fighter.

The next fighter, singlehandedly fighting their way through Bowser's, K. Rool's and Ganondorf's armies of iconic mook enemies (plus a brief shot of Piranha Plant getting smashed right into the stratosphere) and making their way to these three bosses before we finally get to see their identity, is... an Orc Grunt from Warcraft. Not a named Warcraft character, not even a named Orc character such as Thrall, just a generic Orc Grunt. No gameplay footage. The entire internet was in complete shock and confusion at this reveal because absolutely nobody ever saw this coming, but I do remember a Smashboards post with 50+ likes saying something along the lines of "At least we finally got an axe fighter."

Wild, I had a Smash dream last night too. I already forget most of it but the character was a generic soldier from 3 houses with a spear riding on a horse.

 

[JOJONumber691]

Best Dragalia gets is a Euden Mii Costume & Spirit Event and I don’t know why people pretend otherwise. I’m sorry but if your game isn’t available worldwide it’s not going to get a playable character. It stopped Takamaru in 4, Marth/Roy were going to be Japan exclusive in Melee, and Lucas was only added because Sakurai didn’t know Mother 3 was Japan only.

You sincerely want to make that bet? I don't even want Euden in yet I know that all three Nintendo, Sakurai, and CyGames probably know this series popularity Rides or Dies Internationally on Smash. Which is an Argument that (in my eyes) completely counters the European Argument. Besides, it's a G E N R E Ban, not an I P Ban. I do believe that Nintendo being the lead decision maker here makes Euden far more likely. I definitely think Euden has a Good Chance of happening despite the Genre of Origin. Besides, hasn't most other fan rules been proven dead at this point?

 

[Dinoman96]

Yeah I can't wait for Goku, Ronald McDonald, Ronald Reagan, and a talking dog named Boris to join Smash

After all, there's no rules, amirite?

 

[Deleted member]

I hate fan rule discussion like please just make arguments based on merits and logic instead of some intangible boogeyman. For example, when replying to “Waluigi is unlikely because he’s an assist trophy”, don’t say “that’s a fan rule”, instead go with: “circumstances between his inclusion as an AT & now may have changed, blah blah here’s why I think that”. When discussion is boiled down to fan rules all meaning behind whatever those arguments were to begin with is lost and it makes everyone lose brain cells.

 

[JamesDNaux]

Literally the fact that I was called out for pushing “fan rules” when I have never done so, tells me all I need to know about the topic.

It’s just a shorthand term for, “I disagree with a popular idea and it is accepted by a lot of people so I have to shoot it down somehow”.

Just talk about what you want. Nobody is telling you that you can’t talk about it. If you can’t convince people that your idea is super cool, then change your delivery. It’s not my fault people agree with things I say and not others.

I'm going to break your fan rule about them not being called fan rules and call them fan rules so that I can break those too. /s

 

[I.D.]

Ever wonder if the people telling Sakurai what characters to put in Smash also like videogames? ...nah

 

[Guynamednelson]

Ever wonder if the people telling Sakurai what characters to put in Smash also like videogames? ...nah

Nah, they're just soulless corporate heads and that's why we're going to see Jonesy at TGA.

 

[SNEKeater]

So I had yet another smash dream this night, and I remember more bits of this one than the other dreams. This one was a smash presentation revealing Dante as the fourth DLC fighter (his reveal trailer had him saving some fighters from Dracula's second form and beating him up, including a brief shot of him doing so in first person, then revealing that it's Dante taking on Dracula), and showing off Dante going up and beyond the mere concept of smash movesets by having 24 special moves. The Mii Costumes that came with him was Nero, Vergil, the Monster Hunters, Lloyd, Viewtiful Joe and a Doom Slayer PreMiium based on the action figure you can find in Doom 2016 and with the E1M1 soundtrack. This presentation was a bit unusual because unlike the other presentations it ended with an announcement for the next fighter.

The next fighter, singlehandedly fighting their way through Bowser's, K. Rool's and Ganondorf's armies of iconic mook enemies (plus a brief shot of Piranha Plant getting smashed right into the stratosphere) and making their way to these three bosses before we finally get to see their identity, is... an Orc Grunt from Warcraft. Not a named Warcraft character, not even a named Orc character such as Thrall, just a generic Orc Grunt. No gameplay footage. The entire internet was in complete shock and confusion at this reveal because absolutely nobody ever saw this coming, but I do remember a Smashboards post with 50+ likes saying something along the lines of "At least we finally got an axe fighter."

I like this timeline.

And the most believable thing of your post is the "at least we finally got an axe fighter" part. I'd totally expect some people saying that lol

 

[3BitSaurus]

1) Yesterday when I mentioned Rex, it wasn’t because I think he’s likely. I don’t think he is because despite recent events relating to Smash, I don’t think they would have added a Rex costume as a bonus if they were going to make him a fully fledged character.

It’s similar to why I don’t think Tales or Knuckles have a shot. If they sell Mii costumes, the likelihood of inclusion drops significantly in my eyes.

A counterpoint I don't think I've seen yet: why is the Nia costume base game then? If Rex had been made specifically for DLC, shouldn't both costumes be in wave 1?

You could say it's probably "because they wanted to make Rex playable but couldn't so they made the costume", but that makes no sense with the timeline we were given - XC2 entered production at a point where the fighters for the base game were already defined, from what we know, so Sakurai most likely knew from the beginning he wouldn't be able to put Rex in the base game.

Here's what I think is more likely, considering these circumstances: both the Nia and Rex costumes were supposed to be base game (like how we got two ARMS costumes), but the team wanted to give a bonus/incentive for purchasing FP1, so they set aside a costume that they already had for it. Compared to the rest of the base game costumes, Rex is, admittedly, one of the best options to offer as an early purchase bonus, since it was a game still fresh in everyone's minds at the time.

This is why I think the Rex costume should be seen differently, in spite of being DLC. There's a decent chance it's actually just a base game costume that was set aside for DLC, not specifically made for it.

 

[JOJONumber691]

I hate fan rule discussion like please just make arguments based on merits and logic instead of some intangible boogeyman. For example, when replying to, “Waluigi is unlikely because he’s an assist trophy”, don’t say “that’s a fan rule”, instead go with: “circumstances between his inclusion as an AT & now may have changed, blah blah here’s why I think that”. When discussion is boiled down to fan rules all meaning behind whatever those arguments were to begin with is lost and it makes everyone lose brain cells.

Fan Rules by their very nature are guidelines that can be broken at any point. Assist Trophies? Waluigi could get announced on Twitter right now! Mii Costumes? Rex or Geno could both be announced in a Nintendo Direct. Region Locking? Euden's only downside is that and it's countered by literally everything else! Pokeballs? Eevee Evolves Around Battle! I think there are some merits, sure, but whenever Fan Rules are mentioned you have to make sure to address that they can be broken at anytime! The only rule to ever exist for Smash is that a Character must originate from a Video Game and that is it! SHEESH!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[I.D.]

This is why I think the Rex costume should be seen differently, in spite of being DLC. There's a decent chance it's actually just a base game costume that was set aside for DLC, not specifically made for it.

You could have the mii costume the very same day Ultimate released, so

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

3) Tales protagonists will likely have uniqueness in their combo game, but considering characters flip, punch, and throw things throughout the game, I think folks are massively overrating Yuri’s uniqueness. I’ve watched videos of him, and he looks cool. But to make it sound like he’s going to be this character that shakes up the swordsman game seems a bit excessive.

Well of the 17 (18 if one counts Steve) swordsmen out there he could potentially be the 3rd one with a rushdown playstyle. That shakes things up right?