Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Technomage]

If Sol Badguy were to be playable, could he come with 50 tracks?

Depends on how generous ArcSys is.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

If Sol Badguy were to be playable, could he come with 50 tracks?

Could he? Yes. Would he? Yes.
I’ve seen into the future and not only will Sol come with 72 music tracks, he will also come with 3 stages, a new boss, and 3 new fighter Passes. Overall, solid 2/10 another anime swordsman.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Could he? Yes. Would he? Yes.
I’ve seen into the future and not only will Sol come 72 music tracks, he will also come with 3 stages, a new boss, and 3 new fighter Passes. Overall, solid 2/10 another anime swordsman.

It hurts because you know a lot of people would ignore all that because "anime swordsman bad give likes"...

 

[Wunderwaft]

Wanna see the most asinine echo roster list?
No?
Too bad, feast your eyes upon this monstrosity.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Wanna see the most asinine echo roster list?
No?
Too bad, feast your eyes upon this monstrosity.

I don't actually recognise a lot of these suggestions. As a result, I'm honestly more annoyed they didn't add any post-Terry.

 

[Idon]

Wanna see the most asinine echo roster list?
No?
Too bad, feast your eyes upon this monstrosity.

Smash fans really are obsessed with the concept of the echo when it's just a nametag they invented to show off some base-game clones they were able to add in last-minute 3 years ago.

The exception, as always, being Ken, of course.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Wanna see the most asinine echo roster list?
No?
Too bad, feast your eyes upon this monstrosity.

I want whoever thinks Kraid would work as an echo for Ridley hung.

can I say that? Is that allowed? Guess I’m about to find out.

 

[Arcanir]

Wanna see the most asinine echo roster list?
No?
Too bad, feast your eyes upon this monstrosity.

I know this is probably a joke, but some of these like Ridley/Kraid and Toon Link/Toon Zelda hurts me.

 

[Ivander]

Wanna see the most asinine echo roster list?
No?
Too bad, feast your eyes upon this monstrosity.

I don't think they understand the concept of Echo fighters. At all.

 

[Louie G.]

re: echo fighters, I honestly don’t understand why people say any Punch-Out character could be an echo fighter of Little Mac. Let alone Doc, who would obviously be MUCH slower and heavier than Mac, but also Glass Joe who is proportionally at least a head taller than Mac. The bosses towering over him are sort of an important part of the game.

They may be able to share some abilities but they’re certainly not echo potential.

 

[SKX31]

Wanna see the most asinine echo roster list?
No?
Too bad, feast your eyes upon this monstrosity.

Cloud / Squall... urrgh. Seriously, that echo choice gives me an headache. Because Cloud's entire schtick is that he wants to space and consistently pressure with his speed, the Buster Sword moves and Limit (moves). Sure, Squall is also fast, but OTOH is much more up-close and personal because his Gunblade is much smaller, and his Specials (incl. Limit Break) are completely different.

Also, Zack is a not-uncommon Echo suggestion, which makes it... argh.

This echo list comes off as whoever created this forced themselves to come up with an Echo but wound up overthinking in the wrong directions (Toon Zelda as a Toon Link echo? The ****?).

 

[cashregister9]

Wanna see the most asinine echo roster list?
No?
Too bad, feast your eyes upon this monstrosity.

I'm pretty sure this is considered a war crime in some countries.

The worst part about this one are some of the Pokemon and obvious fanmade characters. Also Tiki over Corrin, What the hell.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Speaking of Echos, remember this?

SmashBoards Community Echo Voting Thread: Part 48 Shulk

PART 47: Shulk [/SIZE][/SPOILER] Part 2: Donkey Kong :ultdk: - [/SIZE][/SPOILER] Part 3: Link :ultlink: - Skip 1: Samus :ultsamus:- Part 4: Yoshi :ultyoshi: - [/SPOILER] Part 5: Kirby :ultkirby: - [/SIZE][/SPOILER] Part 6: Fox :ultfox: - [/SPOILER] Part 7: Pikachu :ultpikachu...

smashboards.com

We should totally bring this back. Too bad the thread owner hasn't been on for awhile...

 

[Ivander]

I just realised, can we talk about how somehow frickin' Booster is on that list? Can you frickin' imagine the reaction if Booster got in over Geno? What makes it even funnier is the fact that Booster is on that list and not Boshi.

 

[Perkilator]

Speaking of Echoes, I'm still sad that Shadow and didn't make the cut for such.

• For Shadow, you could make him stronger than Sonic, replace Spin Dash with Light Speed Dash, and replace Spring Jump with Chaos Control
• For Alph, you coud replace Purple Pikmin with Rock Pikmin

 

[Technomage]

• For Shadow, you could make him stronger than Sonic, replace Spin Dash with Light Speed Dash, and replace Spring Jump with Chaos Control

Or gave him a gun.

 

[ahemtoday]

Wanna see the most asinine echo roster list?
No?
Too bad, feast your eyes upon this monstrosity.

Well, other people have gone over many aspects of this already, but allow me to draw attention to the high amount of quite obscure characters whose only merit is that they're able to be an echo.

You know, I think this is a bit of a two-axis deal, here. One axis is "plausibility" - how much the character could plausibly be an echo of the character they're echoing. And the other axis is "relevance" - how... not-bizarre it would be to see this character on a Smash roster. Y'all have been pretty thorough on plausibility, but allow me to point out Keeby, James McCloud, Igglybuff, Two Polar Bears Non-Canonically Wielding Hammers, Ms. Game & Watch, whoever ZSS' Echo is, Booster, whoever Dedede's Echo is, Virtual Boy ROB???, Cosmic Spirit, whoever Duck Hunt's Echo is, Baron K. Roolenstein, and Female Terry. Specifically how far on the bad end of that axis they are.

Maybe I ought to make a chart of where each of these falls on both axes...

 

[Ivander]

• For Alph, you coud replace Purple Pikmin with Rock Pikmin

In the case of Alph, I know Rock Pikmin is common for replacing Purple Pikmin, but does anyone think that the Winged Pikmin could replace White Pikmin and give a different effect from White Pikmin? Like a very minor Beetle effect where when a Winged Pikmin is on a player, it will sometimes lift the player a mini-hop distance. It doesn't outright carry them away like the Beetle, but because it sorta forces the player to short-hop, it can mess with momentum and shielding?
Also if you have any Winged Pikmin on you, they will join the other Winged Pikmin in Up-B and make you more faster while in Up-B.

You know, I think this is a bit of a two-axis deal, here. One axis is "plausibility" - how much the character could plausibly be an echo of the character they're echoing. And the other axis is "relevance" - how... not-bizarre it would be to see this character on a Smash roster. Y'all have been pretty thorough on plausibility, but allow me to point out Keeby, James McCloud, Igglybuff, Two Polar Bears Non-Canonically Wielding Hammers, Ms. Game & Watch, whoever ZSS' Echo is, whoever Dedede's Echo is, Virtual Boy ROB???, Cosmic Spirit, whoever Duck Hunt's Echo is, Baron K. Roolenstein, and Female Terry. Specifically how far on the bad end of that axis they are.

-Zero Suit's Echo is Gandrayda from Metroid Prime 3
-Dedede's Echo is King D-Mind from Kirby Fighters IIRC.
-For Dunk Hunt, I thought the dog was from Wild Gunman or Hogan's Alley from just the way the dog is facing the screen, but I checked and as far as I found, neither game has a dog, so I honestly don't know who that character is.

But yeah, it's really reaching.

 

[SharkLord]

-Dedede's Echo is King D-Mind from Kirby Fighters IIRC.

Half right. It's actually Shadow Dedede from Kirby Triple Deluxe, who was one of Dedede's two bonus bosses alongside Dark Meta Knight. King D-Mind is a combination of him and Dark Mind.

 

[Ridrool64]

Broke: BK as Ike's Echo using Alondite.

Woke: Priam as Ike's Echo using Awakening Ragnell.

Bespoke: Greil as Ike's Echo using Urvan.

 

[MBRedboy31]

-Dedede's Echo is King D-Mind from Kirby Fighters IIRC.

Actually, that’s Shadow Dedede, which is a boss in Dededetour in Triple Deluxe. King D-Mind is the final boss of Team Kirby Clash DX and is a late game boss in Super Kirby Clash. Both of them are, functionally, harder versions of the Triple Deluxe Masked Dedede fight plus extra moves, so they are similar to each other in that aspect.

Edit: ‘d

 

[Diddy Kong]

Wanna see the most asinine echo roster list?
No?
Too bad, feast your eyes upon this monstrosity.

Not Echoes, but I think most would make sense as semi clones.

 

[Ivander]

Woke: Priam as Ike's Echo using Awakening Ragnell.

Someone else remembers Priam. And yeah, he would definitely work as an Echo, but unfortunately, he's pretty unknown. At least until he appears in FEH...which may be forever with how slow they are with Awakening characters.

 

[Gorgonzales]

In the case of Alph, I know Rock Pikmin is common for replacing Purple Pikmin, but does anyone think that the Winged Pikmin could replace White Pikmin and give a different effect from White Pikmin? Like a very minor Beetle effect where when a Winged Pikmin is on a player, it will sometimes lift the player a mini-hop distance. It doesn't outright carry them away like the Beetle, but because it sorta forces the player to short-hop, it can mess with momentum and shielding?
Also if you have any Winged Pikmin on you, they will join the other Winged Pikmin in Up-B and make you more faster while in Up-B.

I like the idea of Winged Pikmin replacing whites in Alph's moveset. That way Olimar could have the main Pikmin of Pikmin 2 and Alph could have the main Pikmin of Pikmin 3.

 

[Idon]

Honestly Priam would be worth it just to have Jamieson Price's voice get into Smash Bros in some way.
As far as badass old men grunts go, there's no one cooler than him.

The only other way he'd be getting in would be as the VA for Papa Nier, but considering the NieR series isn't going to get a character, and if it did, it'd be 2B, and if by a miracle it was Nier, it'd be Bro Nier with no guarantee of a Papa Nier alt... I wouldn't get my hopes up for that.

 

[SKX31]

Speaking of Echoes, I'm still sad that Shadow and didn't make the cut for such.

• For Shadow, you could make him stronger than Sonic, replace Spin Dash with Light Speed Dash, and replace Spring Jump with Chaos Control
• For Alph, you coud replace Purple Pikmin with Rock Pikmin

I do think both are feasible, that said there are some things worth noting:

• When it comes to Shadow, his attacks being stronger would change quite a bit. Not that he'd neccessarily be automatically "better" - but Sonic currently has a lot of moves that have low knockback kinda on purpose so he can follow up (Spin Dash / Spin Charge are two typical examples, and Spin Dash -> Jump -> F-Air is a very common attack chain no matter the skill level). That, and it's worth noting that Spring can be used to guard edges - I do assume that Chaos Control wouldn't be able to (unless it has a exit hitbox like Zelda's)?
• I guess Rock Pikmin would have different physics than Purples? Because Purples are already the "KO" Pikmins. If the Rock Pikmins roll across the ground it would honestly change quite a bit - Purples' weakness is that they have very little range.

In the case of Alph, I know Rock Pikmin is common for replacing Purple Pikmin, but does anyone think that the Winged Pikmin could replace White Pikmin and give a different effect from White Pikmin? Like a very minor Beetle effect where when a Winged Pikmin is on a player, it will sometimes lift the player a mini-hop distance. It doesn't outright carry them away like the Beetle, but because it sorta forces the player to short-hop, and it can mess with momentum and shielding?
Also if you have any Winged Pikmin on you, they will join the other Winged Pikmin in Up-B and make you more faster while in Up-B.

Huh, that's pretty interesting. I must ask, would it be random or in somewhat predictable fashion?

It kinda would mess with momentum (since every character has a different air acceleration stat), but I suppose that would be the point. After all, the very thing about throwing Pikmin onto an opponent is that they're supposed to stick to said opponent and force an reaction. The opponent will not want that 2-3 % extra damage each time this carrot-looking soldier slaps with its leaf to turn into 8-10 %, since it can snowball with each Pikmin latch. That goes with the Winged Pikmin too because forced short hops could be annoying for the opponent. So in concept, I def don't mind the Winged Pikmin implementation.

As for shielsds, jumping out of shield happens instantly, so it might cause some mind-games where if the opponent shields but you know the Winged Pikmin's about to hop you throw out a move. But if the opponent anticipates that...

Fair warning, some characters have outright nasty N-Airs ( , , , ) and if the Winged Pikmin causes a mini-hop while the character intends a jab close to you (or if the opponent anticipates a hop), well, suddenly those moves come out. This goes for tilts as well, which might become short-hop F-Airs ( , , , himself).

Overall, I def don't mind that, it could honestly be pretty interesting, and the concept doesn't sound broken at a cursory glance.

I don't intend to criticize here, but it's worth pointing out what's already in the game as a reference point.

 

[Ivander]

Huh, that's pretty interesting. I must ask, would it be random or in somewhat predictable fashion?

It kinda would mess with momentum (since every character has a different air acceleration stat), but I suppose that would be the point. After all, the very thing about throwing Pikmin onto an opponent is that they're supposed to stick to said opponent and force an reaction. The opponent will not want that 2-3 % extra damage each time this carrot-looking soldier slaps with its leaf to turn into 8-10 %, since it can snowball with each Pikmin latch. That goes with the Winged Pikmin too because forced short hops could be annoying for the opponent. So in concept, I def don't mind the Winged Pikmin implementation.

As for shielsds, jumping out of shield happens instantly, so it might cause some mind-games where if the opponent shields but you know the Winged Pikmin's about to hop you throw out a move. But if the opponent anticipates that...

I was thinking random since Pikmin aren't on a player for long in the first place(since the Pikmin are damaging them) and as you said, some characters have good air attacks. Maybe it could be within a certain hit-range like every 2-5 hits from a Winged Pikmin so that it's in a predictable range, but it's not entirely predictable.
I understand that RNG can be brutal sometimes, but since the Pikmin aren't on for long since the players are trying to get them off, I don't think it should be easy to predict when it will happen.

 

[Perkilator]

Out of curiousity, what would've made a better Garreg Mach stage?

And don't say "don't have a stage at all", this question's about improving it

 

[cashregister9]

Out of curiousity, what would've made a better Garreg Mach stage?

And don't say "don't have a stage at all", this question's about improving it

I really like the stage, I don't think it needs changing all that much.

I guess maybe some more interesting Layouts, More Cameos, Less PS2-esque models.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Out of curiousity, what would've made a better Garreg Mach stage?

And don't say "don't have a stage at all", this question's about improving it

If the stage wasn’t just FLAT in all instances it’d be fine.

 

[7NATOR]

I really don't like the idea, but If I were to make Shadow as an echo of Sonic, Here is what I would do to make him Balanced (since just making him a Slower, but stronger Sonic would likely make him the better Sonic), while at the same time making him more aggressive focused since that not only fits Shadow's character more than Sonic's hit and run style, but would probably be better praised by the community

(Not including the general animation changes, sound changes, etc that echoes usually get)

-Shadow's Initial dash speed needs to be much slower in comparison to Sonic. Sonic's Initial Dash is a big reason Sonic is just able to disengage from situations super easily, just by dashing back. Decreasing the Initial Speed for Shadow would mean that Shadow would be more committal in terms of approaching

-Shadow's Top speed should actually be faster than Sonic. this would make Shadow be able to chase the opponents down and not be able to let them breathe.

-Shadow's Fall speed should be Faster, perhaps to the degree of a Fastfaller.

-Shadow's Attacks shouldn't just be Stronger Across the board, but I think also Faster across the board than Sonic in terms Startup and Endlag. Another Big reason Sonic is more rewarded for Camping then engaging is that his Attacks are not really safe in general, and since Sonic himself is not Strong either, it's just more rewarding to just Hit and Run and do some camping

-Shadow's Spin dash cannot be turned around, and Jumping cancels the move in it's entirety, however even if completely uncharged, it still has a Strong hitbox (with it being Fire Somersault), and it Charges much Faster. This would make spindash better for Chasing Opponents down, however I think it would be easier to deal with a Shadow Spindash spamming since Shadow will have to commit to where they Spindash to, and since there won't be a Jumping hitbox on the Spindash, it can be easier for the opponent to counter the attack instead of just always pressing Shield

-Shadow's Homing Attack would be faster to activate, faster to Charge, and Shadow is in less endlag when hitting an opponent or Shield. However whiffing the move would make Shadow more vulnerable in endlag compared to sonic. Homing Attack is better for pressure, but it requires tactiful use as whiffing could cost you a Stock or such

-Shadow would now have Light Speed Dash. I think how it would work is that if you press Side Special in the direction of an opponent, Shadow will instantly dash towards the opponent, and can Cancel the Dash into anything (Running, Attacks, Specials including another Light Speed Dash). If an opponent is in the air, Shadow will dash through the Air. If the opponent is on the ground diagonal from you, Shadow will dash diagonal toward the opponent to the ground

However you can't Dash where the opponent is not. Shadow will always Dash toward an opponent, and the Change in direction would only matter if there are multiple opponents in Play, as in 1v1's, even just pressing the opposite Direction from the opponent will still have Shadow dash towards the opponent

-Shadow's Recovery will be Chaos Control, which allows him to do up to 3 Very short teleports, that don't put him into free fall. However in order to regain teleports you need to touch the stage again. The distance of the teleports would probably be comparable to the distance of an Regular directional Airdodge. Since it would work like usual Teleports, Shadow is able to use it in any Direction its pointed in, and can be used as a Evasion if timed correctly. The nature of there being multiple Teleports and not putting you into Free fall allows Shadow to better use it for Edgeguarding and Advantage state in general, since Shadow can change positing easy to where he wants to be. however the lack of distance on each teleport and the Resource management would make Shadow very vulnerable if they are caught off stage with little to no Teleports, especially since Shadow as faster fall speed



In summary, these changes will have Shadow focus more toward an aggressive Playstyle that delves on Overwhelming the opponent with your Speed and techniques, as well as great punishment should they fall under the pressure. However an Opponent that can find a hole in Shadow's Gameplan, or a Shadow that doesn't tactfully use their aggression, will make Shadow easy to abuse in terms of the Disadvantage, which leads to Taking alot of damage or even loss of stock, just off One mistake

Some of these changes might not fit an Echo to be honest, and might put Shadow in the category of a Semi-Clone, but it is what it is.

 

[Opossum]

Out of curiousity, what would've made a better Garreg Mach stage?

And don't say "don't have a stage at all", this question's about improving it

As a challenge, I decided to not totally change the stage layouts.

Add KOF walls to at least the Marketplace and Reception Hall, since as-is those blastzones make sense to have them.

Make the transitional segment last longer as, essentially, a fifth layout. This helps break up the monotony of flat walk offs more.

Lower the chandeliers a tad in the Reception Hall. Just to make it a bit more approachable.

Add at least one more cameo character per segment. Hubert for the Reception Hall, Felix for the Marketplace, Lysithea for the Bridge, and either Shamir or Catherine for the Cathedral.

Make the cameo characters appear on the Battlefield and Omega forms please. And also make the hazards off version not always default to the Cathedral.

These are just some ideas from someone who really likes Garreg Mach and was excited it got in.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I always love Echo Fever because of how ****ing hilarious it is that people will desperately insist including a Ness echo who looks identical is a good idea to the point people straight up made a fan design on why Ninten wouldn't be an objectively awful idea

 

[Opossum]

I always love Echo Fever because of how ****ing hilarious it is that people will desperately insist including a Ness echo who looks identical is a good idea to the point people straight up made a fan design on why Ninten wouldn't be an objectively awful idea

In absolute fairness, if you're referring to the scarf, it's official material and not a fan design. It was from the commercial for the original release of the game.

That being said Ninten is still a pretty awful idea considering he's literally just proto-Ness with asthma.

 

[DarthEnderX]

It hurts because you know a lot of people would ignore all that because "anime swordsman bad give likes"...

I know right?

When they SHOULD be bad give likes cause he's not Kunio.

Wanna see the most asinine echo roster list?
No?
Too bad, feast your eyes upon this monstrosity.

Protoman instead of Bass? 0/10.

That being said Ninten is still a pretty awful idea considering he's literally just proto-Ness with asthma.

Sounds like a perfect Echo to me.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

In absolute fairness, if you're referring to the scarf, it's official material and not a fan design. It was from the commercial for the original release of the game.

That being said Ninten is still a pretty awful idea considering he's literally just proto-Ness with asthma.

It's still hilarious to not only have a 30 second long commercial be the only source of ghe biggest change and then have people shove this in your face

That's not Ninten from Mother 1, that's someone on twitter about to call me a slur

 

[Technomage]

It's still hilarious to not only have a 30 second long commercial be the only source of ghe biggest change and then have people shove this in your face
View attachment 312780
That's not Ninten from Mother 1, that's someone on twitter about to call me a slur

LOL Now he's no longer just "proto-Ness with asthma"; he's now French proto-Ness with asthma.

 

[chocolatejr9]

I know right?

When they SHOULD be bad give likes cause he's not Kunio.

I don't think you're helping the case as much as you think you are...

 

[Ivander]

I always love Echo Fever because of how ****ing hilarious it is that people will desperately insist including a Ness echo who looks identical is a good idea to the point people straight up made a fan design on why Ninten wouldn't be an objectively awful idea

What I actually don't get is why don't people suggest Paula as an Echo? You know, the actual user of PK Freeze, Fire and Thunder? And she has a model now. They can use that model like they did with Chrom. Yes, she doesn't use Yo-yos or PK Flash, so use Lucas as the Echo. Like you can make these easy changes for her using Lucas:

1. Replace the stick with a Frying Pan, a weapon that she uses.
2. Take away the Rope Snake and give her Ness' grabs.
3. Modify the PK Love effects to resemble more her other move effects, like Thunder or Freeze.

Like, Paula should be one of the easiest Echos to do now, especially now that she has an official model. I was also thinking about Kumatora, but Kumatora might be more suited for an original moveset since she uses fists as her main weapons alongside her PSI moves(like Poo when he's not using the King's Sword).

 

[TheCJBrine]

I’d like Ninten, he has some cool stuff that would make him different from Ness, especially considering Mother 1 has some exclusive moves and whatnot. 4th-D Slip, PK Beam, I think boomerangs or something too. Could also give him Defense or Offense Up or Down or something, give him more of a different play style.

He does look pretty similar to Ness though, just with a few differences, but I think they could make him work; make the blue stripes on his shirt thicker so the yellow ones are thin, keep his pied eyes and blue shoes, and maybe add the bandana. His face could look a little different too beyond the eyes, like in his clay model and the PMEX Remix mod, although I guess that was easier to do in Brawl since the Smash devs didn’t just copy the basic head model for Mother characters at least without tweaking it...

I was fine with the idea of him being an echo at one point, but really I don’t like it.