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Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

Gengar84

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 9, 2009
Messages
596
From what I've been told, the design is supposed to poke fun at the Michael Bay TMNT movies, which is mildly amusing. Still butt ugly though.


The problem lies mostly with small and rotating cast series. Small series usually only get 1 character and rotating cast series rack up so many important characters that they can't keep up let alone add some of the lesser ones.

Heck, you can't even add freaking Tiki because there are too many bases that need covering first.
As ugly as Rash’s Killer Instinct design might be, I’m glad it’s still nowhere near as bad as the abominations that are the Michael Bay Ninja Turtles. I’ve been a huge Ninja Turtles fan for pretty much my whole life and I refuse to watch those movies.

I also noticed the Battletoads reboot designs strongly resemble the newest TMNT cartoon so you might be onto something. If TMNT stopped screwing up their classic and great designs, we probably wouldn’t be having the same problem with the Battletoads.
 
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Dukefire

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 7, 2018
Messages
2,775
If Eggman does get in.

What other spirits, music tracks and stage would he bring?
 

SharkLord

Smash Hero
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Jun 20, 2020
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Pangaea, 250 MYA
If Eggman does get in.

What other spirits, music tracks and stage would he bring?
For Spirits, he'd probably draw on the Badniks and common enemies of the series, the one area of Sonic that remains untapped, Spirit-wise. The music would probably just be a general pack, and the stage would probably be an iconic Eggman creation, like the Flying Battery or the Death Egg.
 

Gnateb

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 20, 2021
Messages
40
If Eggman does get in.

What other spirits, music tracks and stage would he bring?
He would include some base game spirits, like Pyra/Mythra did. These would be Metal Sonic and Shadow. The rest of his spirits would be his most iconic Badniks, I think, like Motobug, Crabmeat, etc. For his stage, it's between Death Egg and Eggmanland for me. I would prefer Death Egg just because it's been around longer.
 
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Blackmage Kuja

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 17, 2018
Messages
1,721
Conversely, Erdrick was one of my most wanted characters for Smash. But I don't play him at all, because his mechanics are terrible.

Even if I had desperately wanted Steve in Smash, I still wouldn't be playing him, because his gameplay makes him unplayable to me. And he's unplayable to me, for the same reason Hero is, because they were too good a "representation" of their series, and included mechanics that make them awful to play, instead of just being good Smash characters.

Which is why, when I want to play as Dragon Quest in Smash, I play Erdrick Armor Swordfighter, not Hero.
Wow, you hate Hero's mechanics that much? I mean, you could always use the Menu special as a 'Hail mary' option; he's perfectly playable and still a good character without ever using it. Unless its the whole MP gauge mechanic you hate too.
 
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Ivander

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 1, 2014
Messages
7,831
If Eggman does get in.

What other spirits, music tracks and stage would he bring?
Spirits - Maybe some Spirits of Sonic enemies like Motobug and whatnot.
Music - Please bring some non-vocal music, especially Chemical Plant Zone. Although it'd also be cool if we got some full vocal tracks now that One Winged Angel is in.
Stage - Either the Death Egg or Space Colony ARK.
 
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Technomage

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 18, 2019
Messages
589
He would include some base game spirits, like Pyra/Mythra did. These would be Metal Sonic and Shadow. The rest of his spirits would be his most iconic Badniks, I think, like Motobug, Crabmeat, etc. For his stage, it's between Death Egg and Eggmanland for me. I would prefer Death Egg just because it's been around longer.
Along with Badnik spirits, maybe he could also come with Spirits of other Sonic villains, such as Black Doom and Mephiles the Dark?

Wow, you hate Hero's mechanics that much? I mean, you could always use the Menu special as a 'Hail mary' option; he's perfectly playable and still a good character without ever using it. Unless its the whole MP gauge mechanic you hate too.
What's a "Hail Mary" option?
 
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Louie G.

Smash Hero
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Aug 21, 2013
Messages
7,687
Location
Mars
Alright I'm seeing a lot of points thrown around again that kinda bug me so I want to give my two cents on :ultsephiroth:, :ultsonic: and improving on third-party content in general.

I think people are looking way too hard at the whole "representation" angle and assuming that Sephiroth was added with the explicit intent of improving and / or "fixing" FF7's content. As I've said in the past, while I'm sure this could have played some factor in the decision I think it's ultimately another arbitrary excuse that limits our perspective. Fixing FF7 did not need to go as far as adding an entirely new character. Sephiroth justifies himself.

My major takeaway from Sephiroth was not that he was added to expand on FF7, but that he was added in spite of FF7's existing content because Sephiroth is an incredibly significant and popular character who needs no introduction. Same could apply to Tails, Eggman, Chun-Li, etc. It's not like the potential isn't there to expand on these series - Sonic and SF have serviceable content (admittedly yes, much better off than FF7 was but... who wasn't), but plenty of history that has gone untapped and countless characters, music and locations that have yet to be explored. I think the mindset should be less "does it necessarily need more content" and more "is the opportunity there?"

In Sonic's camp... well, he's actually got a surprisingly great spirit lineup, but Min Min and Pyra already show us that we don't need to add that many new spirits. Music-wise Sonic will pretty much never be complete, and then his two stages pretty much cover the same general idea while Sonic offers a huge variety of locations to pull from. Eggman and Tails could offer fresh new movesets and mechanics and are insanely popular characters in their own right. If Nintendo wanted to add one of those two, they would not struggle to find content to fill out a new challenger pack whatsoever.

I feel like it's worth mentioning that Final Fantasy actually has better sales figures than Sonic overall - not by much, but I feel like it's something that doesn't get acknowledged enough. Sales aren't everything, but the flipside to this is how we already know Sonic performs better overseas than it does in Japan. This also leaves the only third party on the roster that performs better than FF as... Minecraft. When you take all this into account it actually makes a good deal of sense why FF would take some precedent in getting an additional character in the first place. This isn't to disqualify the opportunity for Sonic either, but when people act confused as to why Sonic was skipped over or whatever... I'm surprised nobody ever suggests this might be part of the reason why Sonic has to wait his turn.

So why else Sephiroth? Well he's one of the most famous villains in gaming, FF7 is super relevant and has a slew of new related content on its way, Final Fantasy is one of the most successful series represented in Smash... I want to suggest though that Sephiroth was also the most significant SE character after Cloud and Hero themselves. Taking representation of new series out of the picture, putting every single character on an equal playing field where representation is not a factor... it's Cloud, then Hero / Erdrick, then Sephiroth. No question. So is it really that odd to imagine that Nintendo would see the potential here independent from "representation" or from Square pestering them themselves? There's so much more to it than fixing FF7, but that was certainly a really nice benefit to Sephiroth's inclusion.
 
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BlondeLombax

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Apr 29, 2018
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2,087
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plr_highertower
If Eggman does get in.

What other spirits, music tracks and stage would he bring?
I always sort of figured the Spirit Board would consist of C-Listers from the Sonic series, like Fang or the Hard-Boiled Heavies. Add a little extra meat to Sonic's history.

As for the stage, literally any of Eggman's bases could work, though I'm preferential to the Egg Fleet myself.
 

SonicSmasher1

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 4, 2013
Messages
11,533
I always sort of figured the Spirit Board would consist of C-Listers from the Sonic series, like Fang or the Hard-Boiled Heavies. Add a little extra meat to Sonic's history.

As for the stage, literally any of Eggman's bases could work, though I'm preferential to the Egg Fleet myself.
I would personally go with Scrap Brain or Metropolis from Sonic 2. I would think Scrap Brain is the most iconic.
 

Gengar84

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 9, 2009
Messages
596
I don't see what's so bad about Rash's design in Killer Instinct, other than maybe his teeth being too prominent.
It’s not really terrible and it does fit with the style of KI, I just strongly prefer their more cartoony SNES designs. I think the reboot designs are the worst offenders.
 

PeridotGX

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Conversely, Erdrick was one of my most wanted characters for Smash. But I don't play him at all, because his mechanics are terrible.

Even if I had desperately wanted Steve in Smash, I still wouldn't be playing him, because his gameplay makes him unplayable to me. And he's unplayable to me, for the same reason Hero is, because they were too good a "representation" of their series, and included mechanics that make them awful to play, instead of just being good Smash characters.

Which is why, when I want to play as Dragon Quest in Smash, I play Erdrick Armor Swordfighter, not Hero.
hero and steve are some of the most fun characters on the roster, what the **** are you talking about.
 
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kirbsmash

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 14, 2018
Messages
2,303
Even if I had desperately wanted Steve in Smash, I still wouldn't be playing him, because his gameplay makes him unplayable to me. And he's unplayable to me, for the same reason Hero is, because they were too good a "representation" of their series, and included mechanics that make them awful to play, instead of just being good Smash characters.
Honestly, Steve's mining isn't that bad of an mechanic to me, at least. Like it could be way more complex than what it is now.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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Snake Man's stage from Metal Blade Solid
It’s not really terrible and it does fit with the style of KI, I just strongly prefer their more cartoony SNES designs. I think the reboot designs are the worst offenders.
I think the reboot designs are actually pretty good. The problem is moreso that the artstyle just screams "dumb kids cartoon" in the same vein as Teen Titans Go! and Thunder Cats Roar.

hero and steve are some of the most fun characters on the roster, what the **** are you talking about.
He seems to aggressively dislike unorthodox movesets for the most part, so characters with a unique win condition like RNG and resource management are not going to jive with him.
 

BlondeLombax

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plr_highertower
He seems to aggressively dislike unorthodox movesets for the most part, so characters with a unique win condition like RNG and resource management are not going to jive with him.
I sort of theorized that my most wanted could have a sort of armor system where, by default, she takes less damage and knockback, but the more damage she takes, the more of that "armor" she loses, becoming faster and stronger but taking the normal damages any other fighter normally would. I don't think he'd like that one bit.
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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Snake Man's stage from Metal Blade Solid
I sort of theorized that my most wanted could have a sort of armor system where, by default, she takes less damage and knockback, but the more damage she takes, the more of that "armor" she loses, becoming faster and stronger but taking the normal damages any other fighter normally would. I don't think he'd like that one bit.
Actually that's probably something he would like, as he's suggested something similar for Arthur (though it was a more binary defeatist kind of a thing).
 

Gengar84

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 9, 2009
Messages
596
I think the reboot designs are actually pretty good. The problem is moreso that the artstyle just screams "dumb kids cartoon" in the same vein as Teen Titans Go! and Thunder Cats Roar.


He seems to aggressively dislike unorthodox movesets for the most part, so characters with a unique win condition like RNG and resource management are not going to jive with him.
Yeah you have a point there. I don’t absolutely hate the reboot designs either but they just don’t hold up to the originals. It really does look like a kids cartoon, which is what I think they were going for but I guess I’m just too old to appreciate modern cartoon styles lol. Both the original TMNT and the FOX shows had very faithful designs for the turtles but I just can’t get myself to watch the current Nickelodeon cartoon. The previous 3D cartoon was actually pretty good once I got used to the different designs. I appreciate they brought Raphael’s old voice actor back as Donatello.
 

Technomage

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 18, 2019
Messages
589
I sort of theorized that my most wanted could have a sort of armor system where, by default, she takes less damage and knockback, but the more damage she takes, the more of that "armor" she loses, becoming faster and stronger but taking the normal damages any other fighter normally would. I don't think he'd like that one bit.
Looking at your wishlist in your sig, I gotta ask: Are you talking about Asuka or Shantae?
 

RoboFist

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 10, 2018
Messages
264
If Eggman does get in.

What other spirits, music tracks and stage would he bring?
Honestly, any Sonic stage that doesn't feel like a Green Hills Zone retread would work for me. I feel like Eggman would bring with him something like the Death Egg, Chemical Plant Zone, or his theme park from Colors.

In terms of songs, there's a long list still missing from Ultimate. Even if you just wanted to strictly focus on more villainous or industrial-sounding themes, you could easily find 10 or 12 more from the franchise.

Spirits is where things get iffy. The main players are all accounted for already, so you'd have to focus more on bosses, enemies, or other spin-off characters. Throw in Emerl from Sonic Battle, a Dark Chao, the Hard-Boiled Heavies, the Biolizard that can be upgraded to the Finalhazard, Black Doom from Shadow the Hedgehog, the Death Egg itself...and those are just off the top of my head.

Eggman could work and fit so well, guys, I promise...
 

Technomage

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 18, 2019
Messages
589
He seems to aggressively dislike unorthodox movesets for the most part, so characters with a unique win condition like RNG and resource management are not going to jive with him.
I can kinda relate to him, to be honest, since there are characters that I'm reluctant to play as due to feeling that they're too complex. Also, one of the reasons I'm reluctant to play as Hero is because I am not good at multitasking between reading and looking at the battle.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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Feb 13, 2015
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Snake Man's stage from Metal Blade Solid
I can kinda relate to him, to be honest, since there are characters that I'm reluctant to play as due to feeling that they're too complex. Also, one of the reasons I'm reluctant to play as Hero is because I am not good at multitasking between reading and looking at the battle.
Yeah, even ignoring language barrier issues, I feel that Hero can be improved by adding icons. Moving the menu to above his head would help too.
 

kirbsmash

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 14, 2018
Messages
2,303
While we're speaking of Steve, the one thing I dislike about talking about Steve before he was dlc is that people said he was an blank state and thus is unfitting for smash, even though we doesn't care about personalities in smash.
 

DarthEnderX

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 10, 2014
Messages
4,821
Wow, you hate Hero's mechanics that much? I mean, you could always use the Menu special as a 'Hail mary' option; he's perfectly playable and still a good character without ever using it. Unless its the whole MP gauge mechanic you hate too.
It is both of those things.

The fact that running out of mana means you can't even do a basic recovery move is insane.

Meter management should be used for letting you do EXTRA things when you have it. Not take away basic necessities when you don't.

hero and steve are some of the most fun characters on the roster, what the **** are you talking about.
I'm talking about how they're the two worst feeling characters to play in the game.

I don't see what's so bad about Rash's design in Killer Instinct, other than maybe his teeth being too prominent.
Too warty. I like my Battletoads smooth.
 
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Technomage

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 18, 2019
Messages
589
Yeah, even ignoring language barrier issues, I feel that Hero can be improved by adding icons. Moving the menu to above his head would help too.
Or maybe we could select available commands (which are always shown on the Hero's damage meter) using the D-pads (even if it means removing his taunts), and then pressing Down B to use the command that's currently selected? Could also use Special + Shield to switch to a different set of commands.

Probably the former. From what I can gather, Senren Kagura makes use of clothing damage, while Shantae doesn't seem to have any armor-break mechanics.
Asuka. Hence why the word "armor" was in quotes, it's essentially the same as her own games.
To be honest, I'm against adding clothing damage to Asuka, since she's 16-17 years old, making her too young to be legal for that. If she were an adult, then I would have had no problem with that at all.
 
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Mushroomguy12

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 23, 2018
Messages
5,462
1617903716557.png


Me seeing Nintendo upload 4 Nintendo Switch Online Trailers and thinking they might have actually had something to announce about N64/GBA/GCN games but then seeing they just reuploaded the same old trailer we've seen already (with Pac-man tacked on for 5 seconds in the end) 4 times in different languages (and two different English ones for the US and Canada).

1617903921392.png


Edit: the other three seem to be unlisted now.
 
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3BitSaurus

Smash Master
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May 6, 2019
Messages
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Nowhere (no, not the Islands)
To be fair, while I'm always up for seeing Smash getting pushed to new mechanical heights, more gimmicks don't necessarily equal more fun.

Personally, I don't have anything against the way Steve is implemented (aside from some minor nitpicks), but I'd be lying if I said I only play him once in a blue moon and that I'm way more drawn to characters like :ultbanjokazooie: , :ultsephiroth: and :ultpyra:. Even among other gimmicky picks, I tend to have way more fun with :ultminmin than Steve I wonder why.

I also heavily disliked most gimmicks introduced in Smash 4 aside from Ryu's, Cloud's and Bayo's. I've talked about this before, but I can't play Shulk to save my life even though I love the first Xenoblade.

Ultimately, I think it's an issue about execution. For example, Phoenix Wright is undoubtedly a gimmicky character in UMvC3 and I love him.
 

SKX31

Smash Champion
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Feb 22, 2019
Messages
2,694
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Sweden
I can kinda relate to him, to be honest, since there are characters that I'm reluctant to play as due to feeling that they're too complex. Also, one of the reasons I'm reluctant to play as Hero is because I am not good at multitasking between reading and looking at the battle.
If it helps (I know it might not help much, but still), it's worth remembering that the extra mechanics tie into the base character:

:ulthero: isn't just powerful because of Crits / Menu shenaningas, but also since his normal stuff also deals a lot of damage / kills early. The Zap spells deal ca. 20 % at the second level of charge - and that's discounting Oomph, which buffs Side B too (yes, an Oomph-boosted fully charged Side B will OHKO at ledge). The normal Frizz spells (the fireballs) does also a lot of damage Even if the Smash attacks lacked Crits entirely they'd kill at 60 %. And most of his sword swings - while laggy - cover a very wide arc. His entire gameplan is walling people out, and most of the RNG spells are aimed towards that in some fashion (all projectiles travel straight forward) and then look for the buffs / additional spells to throw out and wall people further.

The whole thing about Hero is that the RNG is not even meant to be the main course. It's there to amplify his already meaty swings and attacks.

:ultsteve: may be buffed by mining more materials, but he can still do quite a lot with just the wooden weapons / dirt blocks. Yes, the upgrades buffs his damage potential and several moves work best with additional materials (Minecart most notably), but Steve's attacks are quick enough to the point where he can battle even at the start. There are only a few moves (D-Air, D-Throw) that don't work without materials.

The upgrades are there as a risk / reward system - knowing when to mine and when to craft, for example. If one mines a lot early one risks falling behind... but the reward is possibly getting higher-tier materials for weapons + moves. The risk / reward also goes the other way - if one fights a lot early without mining may mean that one's not instantly overwhelmed, but one might also find oneself in a weaker disadvantage.

Or maybe we could select available commands (which are always shown on the Hero's damage meter) using the D-pads (even if it means removing his taunts), and then pressing Down B to use the command that's currently selected? Could also use Special + Shield to switch to a different set of commands.
Sorry, but if I may be so blunt... TheMightyP summarized it pretty well in the Competitive thread recently:

And trust me, you would hate it if his menu wasn't RNG. Imagine getting gauranteed spells, he would be top 1 if that happened because fishing for spells wouldn't even be an issue anymore.
 
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Louie G.

Smash Hero
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Aug 21, 2013
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Mars
re: :ultsteve:

I was one of the people for a while who believed Steve would have made a fine costume and that Minecraft would be sufficiently represented through other means. I softed on that stance over time and I was definitely won over by his implementation.

I do think that Minecraft could have been represented through other means though. I've been thinking a lot about Smashville and how AC was treated in Brawl, and while Villager came later I still think the series was treated with a great deal of respect before that. I don't think every series that deserves representation in Smash needs to have that done through a character. But I'm pretty happy Steve made it in anyway, in retrospect.

Just that I don't think Steve is the only way the series could have been represented is all. A Minecraft stage, Creeper AT, a music lineup and maybe a TNT item or something like that. A Steve costume would have been fine really just for novelty sake - yeah, Steve himself isn't really a "character" but I think the ability to play as a blocky Minecraft man would have sold the costume in droves regardless.

It really does look like a kids cartoon, which is what I think they were going for but I guess I’m just too old to appreciate modern cartoon styles lol.
With all due respect I feel like this is probably it. Not that there's a maximum age to appreciate an art style... Battletoads looked like the saturday morning cartoons of that era, your TMNT and He-Man looking shows, and nowadays it makes sense for a Battletoads reboot to take after how cartoons look today. I personally don't mind it, give or take a few questionable character design choices, but it could have been fun to see them tackle that sort of old cheesy 80s look nowadays and give that its own unique charm too.
 
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3BitSaurus

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Oh, I have absolutely no doubt that spells like Hocus Pocus, Heal, Zoom and Thwack would either cost a lot more MP to use or wouldn't be there at all if his menu always had the same options.

On the other hand, maybe it could work if each special brought up a separate menu with four options? Though I can also see a huge issue on certain matchups - for example, Hero would completely shut down most projectile zoners if he had access to Bounce at will. Possibly including other Heroes' specials attacks.
 

Cutie Gwen

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Somewhere out there on this big blue marble
Oh, I have absolutely no doubt that spells like Hocus Pocus, Heal, Zoom and Thwack would either cost a lot more MP to use or wouldn't be there at all if his menu always had the same options.

On the other hand, maybe it could work if each special brought up a separate menu with four options? Though I can also see a huge issue on certain matchups - for example, Hero would completely shut down most projectile zoners if he had access to Bounce at will. Possibly including other Heroes' specials attacks.
Yeah that's the issue, guaranteeing what options Hero gets instantly makes them a ****ing nightmare as people often forget that RNG also works against Hero, I should know, I've managed to topdeck Hocus Pocus which turned into Kamikaze before the respawn invincibility wore off.


Also, I want to say that I found an excellent video for an Ace Attorney Challenger Pack

I like how Spirit battles were demonstrated in the video as I don't think I ever see anyone try that, also absolutely in love with the Final Smash idea which sounds fitting for what Sakurai typically does and is much more fitting for Smash than Nick's Level 3 in UMvC3
 
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