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Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

Otoad64

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Blackmage Kuja

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It is both of those things.

The fact that running out of mana means you can't even do a basic recovery move is insane.

Meter management should be used for letting you do EXTRA things when you have it. Not take away basic necessities when you don't.

I'm talking about how they're the two worst feeling characters to play in the game.

Too warty. I like my Battletoads smooth.
Fair enough, I can see the annoyance with it. I just personally took it as a fair trade in the name of balance given the power and versatility of all his moves lol. I can see not wanting to devote time to a character who can be completely out of recovery options in a game heavily reliant on it.
 

SKX31

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Oh, I have absolutely no doubt that spells like Hocus Pocus, Heal, Zoom and Thwack would either cost a lot more MP to use or wouldn't be there at all if his menu always had the same options.

On the other hand, maybe it could work if each special brought up a separate menu with four options? Though I can also see a huge issue on certain matchups - for example, Hero would completely shut down most projectile zoners if he had access to Bounce at will. Possibly including other Heroes' specials attacks.
That is one of the issues yes - some projectile users would still be able to fight Hero in that scenario, sure... but RIP :ultmegaman: and :ultgunner: in that scenario. Also certain Smashes:



Which one?
F-Zero, without any sort of hesitation.

It's not always a good reason though, a lot of the time it's just corporate mismanagement or bad marketing or other bs that has nothing to do with the quality of the franchise itself.
Turns head towards Chibi-Robo, bit by bit.

That franchise in particular should be remembered, since it was repeat mismanagement / bad marketing that killed that (especially with Zip-Lash).
 
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Mushroomguy12

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Turns head towards Chibi-Robo, bit by bit.

That franchise in particular should be remembered, since it was repeat mismanagement / bad marketing that killed that (especially with Zip-Lash).
Ah, the classic, let's make an entry of a series that has very little about what fans liked about the old entries, and when the game does bad, let's just blame the franchise itself rather than our own ineptitude and kill the entire series instead of going back to the old style.
 

Cutie Gwen

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Not going to lie, I don't really care about any of those options. The thing about dead franchises is that 9 times out of 10, there's a reason they're dead.
I mean, out of the ones used in the tweet, Mario and Luigi's the only franchise that died because of the series underperforming, Wario Land's devs wanted to do something different and made Warioware, F Zero sold over a million copies and Nintendo thought "**** this, Mario Kart made more money" and Kid Icarus Uprising did well and is utterly adored but simply hasn't had anything done with it
 

Mushroomguy12

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Technomage

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Which one?

Hmmm, I'd most likely pick Mario and Luigi, since I don't really care much about F-Zero or Kid Icarus at the moment, and Wario Land, while I'd have some interest in it, doesn't appeal to me as much as M&L.
 

Louie G.

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The thing about dead franchises is that 9 times out of 10, there's a reason they're dead.
Feels like a very silly ignorant thing to say. If Nintendo wanted to market these games correctly then they would sell - look at the recent success of Pikmin 3 Deluxe. Promote it right and put it on a console that prints money and you're good. Also, Mario & Luigi is quite literally only dead because AlphaDream died.

It's pretty much been proven over and over that first-party Switch games are near guaranteed to sell well. You would think Nintendo would notice this and use it as an opportunity to boost more franchises that need it, but instead they've pretty much doubled down on the safest ones and only put out like three games a year (despite finding a way to successfully combine their handheld and console output). Man this company frustrates me.
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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As far as Hero's RNG goes, the only change I would make would be to make each option a fixed spell type. So like, the spells would always appear in the order of:
  1. Slash (like Kakrackle Slash)
  2. Projectile (like Kaboom)
  3. Buff (like Oomph)
  4. Wildcard (like Kamikaze and Thwack)
EDIT: You would definitely need to change some things around, potentially even adding spells so that the overpowered ones don't appear super often with the increased rates, but it would make the menu a bit less clunky. Another thing that might help in that regard would be allowing left and right inputs to select the second and third options respectively in fewer inputs.


As for dead series, the fact that they are dead isn't really indicative of quality. There are good series that get discontinued for no, or stupid reasons (cough Darkstalkers cough cough), there are good series that don't take off as much as they need to to be sustainable or the devs just go bankrupt (Mario & Luigi), and there are good series that just...end (Earthbound).
 
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Otoad64

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As for dead series, the fact that they are dead isn't really indicative of quality. There are good series that get discontinued for no, or stupid reasons (cough Darkstalkers cough cough), there are good series that don't take off as much as they need to to be sustainable or the devs just go bankrupt (Mario & Luigi), and there are good series that just...end (Earthbound).
more often than not I think it comes down to marketing, like look at Chibi-Robo, it's like Nintendo was trying to kill it!
 

SKX31

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It's pretty much been proven over and over that first-party Switch games are near guaranteed to sell well. You would think Nintendo would notice this and use it as an opportunity to boost more franchises that need it, but instead they've pretty much doubled down on the safest ones and only put out like three games a year (despite finding a way to successfully combine their handheld and console output). Man this company frustrates me.
The situation becomes way less confusing when one remembers Miyamoto's personal motto:

"New ways to play".

It's practically become the entire company's MO because organizational ideology is a really strong force (especially with long-lasting organizations, but also with younger organizations) and those at the top - like Miyamoto - have a lot of influence because they get to have a stronger say over what gets made or whatever. Now, Nintendo's not as set in their ways as say the Catholic Church* is, but it's evident when Miyamoto said to Bill Trinen:

"So maybe if we create a new controller interface, and we find that particularily suited to F-Zero, then maybe we'll do something with it again in the future".


Which... honestly, gets to a main issue I believe Nintendo has. Many within Nintendo, including Miyamoto, get the impression that their games, characters and consoles are so beloved because of the play control they're associated with. Which doesn't take into account that a lot of hardcore Nintendo fans also get attached to Nintendo's characters because of the characteristics. It's kinda the drawback with organizational ideology - the thinking they encourage might lead to a lot of people within the organization not entirely "getting" (for lack of a better term) all aspects of their success / popularity.

*(I bring them up because they've existed for a 1000+ years, some of its quirks have existed relatively unchanged for centuries because of its organizational ideology. Other corporations like Coca-Cola have also deeply-entrenched organizational ideologies, like not ever revealing its recipe.)
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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Lol no worries. I always think of the wrestler whenever I hear the name Asuka.
Whenever I hear about Senren Kagura, I always think of Skallgrim's video on it where he somewhat enjoys the gameplay, but everything else causes him discomfort. I think the video's titled something like "Someone made me play the jiggly game. Please help."
 

TheCJBrine

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re: :ultsteve:

I was one of the people for a while who believed Steve would have made a fine costume and that Minecraft would be sufficiently represented through other means. I softed on that stance over time and I was definitely won over by his implementation.

I do think that Minecraft could have been represented through other means though. I've been thinking a lot about Smashville and how AC was treated in Brawl, and while Villager came later I still think the series was treated with a great deal of respect before that. I don't think every series that deserves representation in Smash needs to have that done through a character. But I'm pretty happy Steve made it in anyway, in retrospect.

Just that I don't think Steve is the only way the series could have been represented is all. A Minecraft stage, Creeper AT, a music lineup and maybe a TNT item or something like that. A Steve costume would have been fine really just for novelty sake - yeah, Steve himself isn't really a "character" but I think the ability to play as a blocky Minecraft man would have sold the costume in droves regardless.
This is all fine and agreeable, but a lot of people who said stuff like "he'd be fine as a mii costume or if Minecraft just got a stage" seemed to downplay him as a character/choice and missed the point of why people wanted him in the first place, making it sound like he shouldn't be a fighter at all and even saying stuff like "he could just do stuff in the background of the stage" when any character could be represented that way without being a fighter. People like Steve, people want to play as Steve, and not just a mii that looks like him even if that would've been better than nothing; no one or thing "needs" to be something in a videogame. This kinda stuff was argued by some people who seemed to hate Steve as if the people who wanted him didn't matter, because to them Steve wasn't necessary even though in reality their wants weren't necessary either and for some people Steve would be awesome and necessary in their opinion. Though, if you want to represent what the player can do in Minecraft, a main point of the game, then Steve would technically be necessary or at least another Minecraft character.

Once again what you said was fine though and not like what I'm talking about, I guess you just reminded me of them since it sounds like you're basing it off that stuff kinda idk how to explain.
 
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Gorgonzales

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If Eggman does get in.

What other spirits, music tracks and stage would he bring?
As long as the stage isn't green or has hills I don't really care.

Mania has a lot of bangers like Hard-Boiled Heavies, Eggman's Boss Theme, Mirage Saloon, etc that have yet to be added yet. Also how in the world do we not have Terminal Velocity Act 1 in the game yet??
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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The Golf game was just a red herring. You'll see. You'll all see.
Ya'know, my stance is that if another character is to get in for promotional reasons, we'd already know who it is (EDIT: as in, their game would have been in a previous direct already), but if, if, Golden Sun is indeed getting a revival, I could see them doing a double Golden Sun + Golden Sun X Super Smash Bros. Ultimate reveal. While it is unlikely that they'd promote such a small series like this, it does at least have Issac's Assist Trophy going for it, which I believe means 2 things: Nintendo knows that people are aware of Golden Sun, and that there is at least a large enough audience to bring the Assist Trophy back. Combine this with an E3 direct, and you could really jump start the series like this, even moreso than with other titles methinks. The only problem is picturing Nintendo wanting to jump start a series like this.
 
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N3ON

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The situation becomes way less confusing when one remembers Miyamoto's personal motto:

"New ways to play".

It's practically become the entire company's MO because organizational ideology is a really strong force (especially with long-lasting organizations, but also with younger organizations) and those at the top - like Miyamoto - have a lot of influence because they get to have a stronger say over what gets made or whatever. Now, Nintendo's not as set in their ways as say the Catholic Church* is, but it's evident when Miyamoto said to Bill Trinen:

"So maybe if we create a new controller interface, and we find that particularily suited to F-Zero, then maybe we'll do something with it again in the future".


Which... honestly, gets to a main issue I believe Nintendo has. Many within Nintendo, including Miyamoto, get the impression that their games, characters and consoles are so beloved because of the play control they're associated with. Which doesn't take into account that a lot of hardcore Nintendo fans also get attached to Nintendo's characters because of the characteristics. It's kinda the drawback with organizational ideology - the thinking they encourage might lead to a lot of people within the organization not entirely "getting" (for lack of a better term) all aspects of their success / popularity.

*(I bring them up because they've existed for a 1000+ years, some of its quirks have existed relatively unchanged for centuries because of its organizational ideology. Other corporations like Coca-Cola have also deeply-entrenched organizational ideologies, like not ever revealing its recipe.)
That's really only the half truth. Nintendo is intent on exploring new ways to play games and innovate their series, but there's no chance that if a series like F-Zero sold on par with the "safe" series it wouldn't have been back a long time ago, and would show up on a much more regular basis, even if they were only able to build on it in relatively incremental steps.

I mean look at Splatoon 2 or Smash Bros. Hell, look at Mario Kart. There are advances each time, but it's very much the same thing over and over, with just more to it. It's deeper, but it's not an overhaul like those between 3D Marios or Zeldas. The most glaring example is probably New Super Mario Bros.

So Nintendo is more focused on new ways to push their series forward than many other companies who are content doing the same thing again and again, or chasing trends to the detriment of the series' original conception and general feel, but Nintendo is not immune from the output of derivative titles, should the money be there. If F-Zero could move 5 million copies a game, it likely never would've left to begin with, regardless of innovative atrophy.

The thing about F-Zero is the baseline formula, unlike those other, more successful series, is one that, without innovation, Nintendo feels is at best, a questionable investment. Something else to keep in mind is that the claim that F-Zero GX sold 1.5 million copies or whatever it was can't be corroborated anywhere within Nintendo's own public records. And they are usually pretty upfront and transparent about the commercial performance of their software, especially the titles which exceeded a million units. It makes that claim suspect, as far as I'm concerned.

But obviously Nintendo is quite dogmatic in their principles, and seemingly have an old guard who are very selective about when innovation is worthwhile and when it is best not touched with a 100-foot pole. Like online, or the dissemination of their IP on the internet. Things seem to be shifting, but as is typical for a huge, longstanding company, very gradually. Miyamoto himself, for all the seminal influence he's had on the industry, has what is now an arguably antiquated view of what games are capable of.

I admire the effort it took to photoshop this.
Lol, thank you. I'm just happy all the necessary letters were there.
 
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DarthEnderX

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I just personally took it as a fair trade in the name of balance given the power and versatility of all his moves lol.
I don't really consider him versatile.

Versatility is about having a large toolkit that lets you deal with a wide variety of situations.

A toolkit with a small handful of random tools each time you open the lid isn't actually versatile.

I can see not wanting to devote time to a character who can be completely out of recovery options in a game heavily reliant on it.
And I say that as someone that mains Little Mac!
 
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SNEKeater

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Which one?

Definitely Kid Icarus, followed by F-Zero.

Yeah that's the issue, guaranteeing what options Hero gets instantly makes them a ****ing nightmare as people often forget that RNG also works against Hero, I should know, I've managed to topdeck Hocus Pocus which turned into Kamikaze before the respawn invincibility wore off.


Also, I want to say that I found an excellent video for an Ace Attorney Challenger Pack

I like how Spirit battles were demonstrated in the video as I don't think I ever see anyone try that, also absolutely in love with the Final Smash idea which sounds fitting for what Sakurai typically does and is much more fitting for Smash than Nick's Level 3 in UMvC3
Hey this Final Smash would be ****ing great.

Another extra touch would be that each time the FS would be slightly different: sometimes you'll get Edgeworth, sometimes it will be Franziska, sometimes it's Godot, Klavier... In other words, like Joker's FS.

I think even adding Apollo and Athena there, at Phoenix's side, could be possible.

My only question would be: should they go with the GBA/DS artstyle for that FS, or recreate it in 3D? I'd like the second option to be honest but it would be more work. The courtroom itself I don't think would be a problem because I assume that would be the stage, so they could reuse that. If they feel like it, then we could get other attorneys and prosecutors, and well, considering they have done background characters for stages more than once, this doesn't sound impossible.
 

N3ON

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Ya'know, my stance is that if another character is to get in for promotional reasons, we'd already know who it is (EDIT: as in, their game would have been in a previous direct already), but if, if, Golden Sun is indeed getting a revival, I could see them doing a double Golden Sun + Golden Sun X Super Smash Bros. Ultimate reveal. While it is unlikely that they'd promote such a small series like this, it does at least have Issac's Assist Trophy going for it, which I believe means 2 things: Nintendo knows that people are aware of Golden Sun, and that there is at least a large enough audience to bring the Assist Trophy back. Combine this with an E3 direct, and you could really jump start the series like this, even moreso than with other titles methinks. The only problem is picturing Nintendo wanting to jump start a series like this.
I also think we're past the point of getting promotional characters from games that aren't out yet. Considering when FP2 was decided, 2+ years away exceeds the typical timeframe for promotional character inclusion. I mean there is the caveat that if they wanted to promote a character from Legends Arceus or hypothetically a GS remake, those characters aren't new, and therefore have existing material from which to draw, but I still think the timeframe has lapsed.

I think 2019 or 2020 would've been the time for a Golden Sun game to release if Nintendo wanted to leverage it for Smash. Which in and of itself would be quite the long shot. I mean Isaac is popular, they know he was popular, and it does sort of fit the mold of the series Nintendo likes to use Smash to promote. But that kind of promotion is, despite how people treat it, pretty uncommon.

Ultimately I was just joking around. I don't believe GS is coming any time soon. Camelot is handling Mario Golf, and GS isn't the kind of series so meaningful to Nintendo that I can see them finding another studio to work on it. Who knows though, the Switch is going to stick around in some form for several more years and after this game both tennis and golf will be out of the way, so here's hoping.

To go back to what Louie was saying though, it is a real shame they're not giving a series like GS a shot on the Switch, because not only has it proven a hospitable environment for a wealth of different games, including many RPGs (look at Square going full steam on Switch), but Golden Sun only sold below a million once before it was put on ice. It's not a series that has never found success. I mean consider how many chances Xenoblade and FE had before they even cracked a million. If there's any time the stars are aligning for it to recapture what it once had, it'd be now, right?

Because really, you can put out a Tennis or a Golf game at any time, and if Mario's on the cover, it'll be a relatively safe return. Unfortunately it's a bit too safe in comparison to a dormant RPG, hence our current situation.
 

LiveStudioAudience

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The thing about supposedly dead series is that there's so many variables to account for with them that predicting the risk in another entry is hard, even for those within the industry.

To use the example of one that's not dead but in hibernation/potential life support, Star Fox. The easy answer with it is that short arcade shooters have lost their appeal in the modern market and thus its been hit with diminishing sales. But the thing is, so many of its titles in the past 24 years have had asterisks in regards to their releases and its tricky to genuinely say the gameplay doesn't hold much interest given that its been a roulette so often. If the series gets a SF 64 esque sequel on the Wii with its huge install base and interest in casual multiplayer, how much is its trajectory changed?

Or to use one relevant to today, Streets of Rage was essentially dead for 25 years, yet its return has yielded strong commercial results, especially thanks to the cost saving means of the digital market. Who’s to say that method couldn’t work for numerous dormant Nintendo IP’s?

Essentially dead series’ chances feel far more malleable now than they’ve been.
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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The thing about supposedly dead series is that there's so many variables to account for with them that predicting the risk in another entry is hard, even for those within the industry.

To use the example of one that's not dead but in hibernation/potential life support, Star Fox. The easy answer with it is that short arcade shooters have lost their appeal in the modern market and thus its been hit with diminishing sales. But the thing is, so many of its titles in the past 24 years have had asterisks in regards to their releases and its tricky to genuinely say the gameplay doesn't hold much interest given that its been a roulette so often. If the series gets a SF 64 esque seq
Oof. Looks like it caused a quadruple post.

Honestly, I think Star Fox is a lot like Sonic, but less successful. It did a thing, and did it well, then they started changing it up to varying degrees of success and have still yet to find the golden formula.


That is one of the issues yes - some projectile users would still be able to fight Hero in that scenario, sure... but RIP :ultmegaman: and :ultgunner: in that scenario. Also certain Smashes:
That clip is just...how? Why is lava a projectile and how the heck did Hero know it was one?
 

NonSpecificGuy

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Not going to lie, I don't really care about any of those options. The thing about dead franchises is that 9 times out of 10, there's a reason they're dead.
First of all, How dare you. Second of all that’s not at all true. Kid Icarus was successful and a masterpiece and the only reason a sequel hasn’t been made is because Sakurai has been busy though that’s not much of a reason.

Edit: Kid Icarus isn’t even the only example in that single post. Let alone a ton of others. Like for instance, we’re not getting a Nioh 3 or a Dark Souls 4
 
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