Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

I'd agree if Pyra/Mythra didn't happen. Sephiroth was exempt from criticism mainly because he's Sephiroth. THE anime swordsman in people's eyes. Fire Emblem started it 100% but there are always disgruntled people when there's a new swordfighter.

But again my point is it can be 5 years later and people will STILL go "ugh, ANOTHER anime swordfighter??"

People should just be honest and say they didn't get the character they wanted instead of that age old excuse.

I think there's a few different groups lumped into a vaguely similar stance. There's the people who don't like Fire Emblem as a series, there's others who think it's fine but that it gets too much attention, there's another group that just want their favorite to get the spotlight for once, there's a group that likes Fire Emblem but thinks the quality of representation (on average) is poor, and there's another group that really hates fighting against swordfighters because they have to work harder when fighting against disjoints. I suppose there's also a few that think of Smash as a brawling game akin to Tekken or Street Fighter, and when a lot of weapons come into play they feel it is moving away from the spirit of the game. The last one's weird, I know, but I've seen the argument before.

Long story short, it's more than one grievance and they all target the same thing.

 

[DarkFalcon]

Somewhere along the lines I got completely turned around in my argument lol. My ranting was more aimed at so called originality of movesets. Kind of shifted to swordfighters and people's perception of them instead of movesets. That's more what grinds me than anything lol.

 

[SpecterFlower]

What's ironic is most of Byleth's moveset doesn't use a sword. It's mostly whips, bow, spear, or axe. Which then means the argument is shifted back to being fire emblem and not sword users...until a sword user is revealed. So the vitriol towards Byleth is fascinating because it's not based on the common sentiment I always hear, and leads to my point of the argument constantly shifting based on who the character is.

It isn't hard to be more restrained when Byleth was the peak of that argument. Doesn't mean it didn't exist beyond that.

i don't think it's more so a sword fighter thing moreso it doesn't really do much with those weapons, the axe feels like a big sword and the spear feels like a long sword only up air, up smash, up b and neutral b really feel like they take advantage of byleth's multiple weapons.

they visually and playstyle wise feels like a slow swordie, i think switching weapons for a stat change, frame data change, damage change and hitbox change would've been a better mechanic for byleth. though they still are one of my preferred characters as they are now.

 

[BlondeLombax]

I’ve been thinking; what if some of the Fire Emblem characters were to lose their swords entirely? Like Robin using only their tomes or Corrin relying on their dragon powers? Would the anime swordfighter complaint take a blow? And if so, how big of a blow would it be?

Oh who am I kidding, we all know what the outcome would be.

 

[Idon]

I’ve been thinking; what if some of the Fire Emblem characters were to lose their swords entirely? Like Robin using only their tomes or Corrin relying on their dragon powers? Would the anime swordfighter complaint take a blow? And if so, how big of a blow would it be?

Well then it'd just be anime in general.

 

[DarkFalcon]

i don't think it's more so a sword fighter thing moreso it doesn't really do much with those weapons, the axe feels like a big sword and the spear feels like a long sword only up air, up smash, up b and neutral b really feel like they take advantage of byleth's multiple weapons.

they visually and playstyle wise feels like a slow swordie, i think switching weapons for a stat change, frame data change, damage change and hitbox change would've been a better mechanic for byleth. though they still are one of my preferred characters as they are now.

I don't personally agree. That feels more like Sephiroth than anything. But to address the stance change idea..I don't think that is feasible. 4 different movesets for 1 character is extremely ambitious.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

I’ve been thinking; what if some of the Fire Emblem characters were to lose their swords entirely? Like Robin using only their tomes or Corrin relying on their dragon powers? Would the anime swordfighter complaint take a blow? And if so, how big of a blow would it be?

I think it would take a blow, but not until the game after the one where that happened. And it would depend a lot on how big the roster is and what other newcomers were added. Taking out 4 swords from one series and adding 5 more elsewhere would undo some of that effort. That said, I do think it would be a good idea for the FE part of the roster to diversify a little more. It's making progress, but it's slow.

 

[7NATOR]

So with Ryu being offically deconfirmed (R.I.P), who would you now consider to be in the Frontrunners of Smash Speculation at this moment (besides Crash)

 

[Dinoman96]

So with Ryu being offically deconfirmed (R.I.P), who would you now consider to be in the Frontrunners of Smash Speculation at this moment (besides Crash)

No one.

 

[DarkFalcon]

So with Ryu being offically deconfirmed (R.I.P), who would you now consider to be in the Frontrunners of Smash Speculation at this moment (besides Crash)

Absolutely no clue. The Fandom frontrunners seem to be Crash and maybe Master Chief? Dunno if there's any 1st parties being heavily talked about.

 

[KingDoop]

So with Ryu being offically deconfirmed (R.I.P), who would you now consider to be in the Frontrunners of Smash Speculation at this moment (besides Crash)

I had a dream a few nights ago where the final characters were Viewtiful Joe and Nightmare. So there you have it

 

[Otoad64]

if Crash is the only remaining frontrunner then what happens if he's the next character? are there just no frontrunners anymore?

 

[Peripuff]

I'm guessing the last two fighters will be one of Tails and Arle for CP10 and then a Nintendo character or maybe Chun-Li (or Sora plz) for CP11

 

[DarkFalcon]

if Crash is the only remaining frontrunner then what happens if he's the next character? are there just no frontrunners anymore?

People will go insane talking about whatever 3rd party will take the final spot and then be very upsetty spaghetti when it's a 1st party.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

The swordfighter complaints are mostly just a parroted scapegoat for typical Smash salt.

A large portion of the fanbase is only willing to entertain something they want before the reveal and are unwilling to reexamine things that are new.

When a character is revealed that they don't like, want or know, they get mad and won't try to look at the positives or learn about the new character or franchise. It's an instant dismissal of the unknown hence the really stupid "nobody asked for this".

A large amount of the sword fighters on the roster are from more niche franchises (Fire Emblem, Xenoblade, Dragon Quest in tbe west) so less people know them. If that group doesn't know them, they get mean.

This is why people like Sephiroth dont get as many complaints. Those people know him. By saying it's the swordfighters that are the problem, these people can feel self righteous in their non existant crusade against "bad choices." All the swordfighter complaints disappear if it's one they want. Funnily enough, this causes that group to cannibalize itself a lot. Sora fights can get REALLY nasty.

There are people with legitimate beef with the art styles and playstyles, but I've noticed those people tend to be able to articulate their thoughts better than just a parroted phrase that's spouted religiously.

TLDR: it's just people being salty.

 

[Technomage]

So with Ryu being offically deconfirmed (R.I.P), who would you now consider to be in the Frontrunners of Smash Speculation at this moment (besides Crash)

Either Master Chief, a Tales rep, or another Sonic rep.

 

[Gengar84]

Yuri looks more like the Fire Emblem characters than Lloyd, Velvet or other Tales protags? Well, yeah, I guess so. But that is for sure not a hurdle against him. Maybe in our eyes but Sakurai and Nintendo do not care about these things. They care about other things, as we know.

And maybe visually speaking he isn't as "crazy" as Velvet or Lloyd (even if it's because he wields two swords) but he definitely would be a very unique character. The combo depth in Tales isn't exclusive to other characters and Vesperia definitely has more depth in that sense than Symphonia (the 2 games I've played so far). Maybe not necessary to actually beat the game but the game has some crazy **** that can look like a fighting game sometimes:

And as SKX31 said he uses his sword (or his axe) in a very particular way most of the times, if someone cares about him using his sword in a very typical manner.

I don’t think it’s a hurdle preventing Yuri from getting in, it’s just something that would make me a little less hyped if he did. Maybe I’m underselling Yuri’s moveset potential. It has been a while since I played Vesperia, and while I did love Yuri as a character, I tended to use Rita Mordio to more often because I like her even more. That being said, I would still be happy if Yuri got in, just less so than Velvet.

Another example of a character I loved in his game but I don’t think would be overly interesting in Smash is Dunban from Xenoblade. Dunban was my favorite character but he is just another one handed sword user that doesn’t really have many flashy attacks when compared to other characters. I think Fiora would probably be a more interesting Smash character despite me liking Dunban more.

I’m not really against more sword fighters getting in, I just tend to prioritize characters with different fighting styles.

 

[chocolatejr9]

if Crash is the only remaining frontrunner then what happens if he's the next character? are there just no frontrunners anymore?

Well, I'll still be talking about Euden, for what that's worth...

 

[Inue Houji]

I see people are falling for the interview fallacy again.
Once again, the answer to "is X coming to Smash" is already known before the question is asked. No one is ever going to answer yes.

But who am I kidding, people will speculate on anything anyway. There's no sense in trying to explain this.
Yet here I am. Truly, I am the fool

 

[DarkFalcon]

The swordfighter complaints are mostly just a parroted scapegoat for typical Smash salt.

A large portion of the fanbase is only willing to entertain something they want before the reveal and are unwilling to reexamine things that are new.

When a character is revealed that they don't like, want or know, they get mad and won't try to look at the positives or learn about the new character or franchise. It's an instant dismissal of the unknown hence the really stupid "nobody asked for this".

A large amount of the sword fighters on the roster are from more niche franchises (Fire Emblem, Xenoblade, Dragon Quest in tbe west) so less people know them. If that group doesn't know them, they get mean.

This is why people like Sephiroth dont get as many complaints. Those people know him. By saying it's the swordfighters that are the problem, these people can feel self righteous in their non existant crusade against "bad choices." All the swordfighter complaints disappear if it's one they want. Funnily enough, this causes that group to cannibalize itself a lot. Sora fights can get REALLY nasty.

There are people with legitimate beef with the art styles and playstyles, but I've noticed those people tend to be able to articulate their thoughts better than just a parroted phrase that's spouted religiously.

TLDR: it's just people being salty.

You'd think with how some people talk about swordfighters they'd be half the roster.

 

[BlondeLombax]

So with Ryu being offically deconfirmed (R.I.P), who would you now consider to be in the Frontrunners of Smash Speculation at this moment (besides Crash)

With everyone saying “No clue” to this prompt, I’m just gonna be happily vibin’ to the side knowing that the “ninja” archetype just opened up a wide variety of options. No offense, Ryu fans.

 

[SpecterFlower]

I don't personally agree. That feels more like Sephiroth than anything. But to address the stance change idea..I don't think that is feasible. 4 different movesets for 1 character is extremely ambitious.

the same moveset, think of it like gilgamesh in dissidia without the rng and with some frame data changes. als bow stay's netral b so only 3 different weapons really.

 

[SKX31]

What's ironic is most of Byleth's moveset doesn't use a sword. It's mostly whips, bow, spear, or axe. Which then means the argument is shifted back to being fire emblem and not sword users...until a sword user is revealed. So the vitriol towards Byleth is fascinating because it's not based on the common sentiment I always hear, and leads to my point of the argument constantly shifting based on who the character is.

It isn't hard to be more restrained when Byleth was the peak of that argument. Doesn't mean it didn't exist beyond that.

I do agree with the main point you're trying to make - that "Swordfighters" and "Fistfighters" etc. are too broad to encapsulate different character archetypes. Some swordusers generally want to close in on people ( , ) while others want to use their swords to discombobulate approaches and set up other stuff ( , ) for example.

To add to what SpecterFlower said:

Part of the reason that Byleth got a lot of hate is... his CQC leans heavily on the sword-esque style, especially considering the reappearing tipper mechanic. Sure, (s)he doesn't use a standard sword, but those weapons are still disjoints. And his / her gameplan is centered around that - to the point Byleth is a "sworduser" who wants to space his / her attacks. It's most notable with F-Tilt, but other attacks like F-Air / B-Air, U-Tilt etc. Hell, Byleth even N-Airs with the bow as if it was a sword. Byleth's N-Air is not exactly akin to 's, granted (although I'd argue both N-Airs serve similar roles), but point still stands.

That seeming similarity with Marth and previous swordusers from the FE 'verse was a large reason why a lot of people got mad.

Now that doesn't reflect reality much, no. Anyone who's watched say MKLeo's Byleth would be able to instantly tell the differences between how he uses Byleth from how he uses Marth. Also worth noting is that MKLeo is a master at spacing, to the point where he's able to exert severe pressure by just being a certain distance from the opponent - and yet the playstyle differences exist.

But once people who are, as Swamp Sensei put it very well, not at all interested in learning about Marth, Byleth or whoever learned about the inclusion, they're just looked at Byleth and saw Marth. Even if it's incredibly inaccurate.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Here's a question.

What first party character do you think is underrated in terms if chance?

I think its Waluigi.

I feel like the backlash against his deconfirmation was strong enough that Nintendo may make him the sole exception.

I don't find him too likely, but he's very underrated.

 

[Perkilator]

if Crash is the only remaining frontrunner then what happens if he's the next character? are there just no frontrunners anymore?

I'll still be simping for Sora until the very end.

 

[SpecterFlower]

Here's a question.

What first party character do you think is underrated in terms if chance?

I think its Waluigi.

I feel like the backlash against his deconfirmation was strong enough that Nintendo may make him the sole exception.

I don't find him too likely, but he's very underrated.

Style Savvy Stylist

 

[Perkilator]

Here's a question.

What first party character do you think is underrated in terms if chance?

I think its Waluigi.

I feel like the backlash against his deconfirmation was strong enough that Nintendo may make him the sole exception.

I don't find him too likely, but he's very underrated.

Definitely Euden, for one.

 

[cashregister9]

Here's a question.

What first party character do you think is underrated in terms if chance?

I think its Waluigi.

I feel like the backlash against his deconfirmation was strong enough that Nintendo may make him the sole exception.

I don't find him too likely, but he's very underrated.

I'm gonna steal C chocolatejr9 's job and shill Euden from Dragalia Lost

 

[Dyamanttine]

Wait what happened with Ryu? He is out? Someone explain please D:

 

[DarkFalcon]

Here's a question.

What first party character do you think is underrated in terms if chance?

I think its Waluigi.

I feel like the backlash against his deconfirmation was strong enough that Nintendo may make him the sole exception.

I don't find him too likely, but he's very underrated.

You're probably right about Waluigi. I don't want him but if there's any character will get past that assist trophy to fighter in the same game barrier I think it's him.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Here's a question.

What first party character do you think is underrated in terms if chance?

I think its Waluigi.

I feel like the backlash against his deconfirmation was strong enough that Nintendo may make him the sole exception.

I don't find him too likely, but he's very underrated.

This cute lil bab right here:

uwu

but seriously. Octo Expansion was the bee’s knees, challenging but fun af, and there’s... not a lot of Splatoon 2 OR Octo Expansion content in base. There’s a lot of moveset potential too with them using different weapons from Inkling, maybe a more aggressive play style to reflect the high risk high reward nature of Octo Expansion

AND DID I MENTION THEY’RE ADORABLE AS HECK?? UwU

 

[SpecterFlower]

Wait what happened with Ryu? He is out? Someone explain please D:

Yasuda (Nnija gaiden guy) had multiple interviews and basically deconformed ryu in all of them, the most recent one put the nail in the coffin


though he can't really say yes, so no was always the answer, if someone asked an atlus representative if joke was coming to smash the day before the game awards they would say no too.

still don't think he's happening though that's just too many no's

 

[PeridotGX]

View attachment 309424

Dread it. Run from it. Destiny arrives all the same. And now its here. Or should I say, I am.

I for one welcome our Bandicoot overlord over speculation.

not for long...

 

[chocolatejr9]

Here's a question.

What first party character do you think is underrated in terms if chance?

I think its Waluigi.

I feel like the backlash against his deconfirmation was strong enough that Nintendo may make him the sole exception.

I don't find him too likely, but he's very underrated.

I'm gonna steal my job back from cashregister9 and say Euden.

Also, the Waluigi backlash was GREATLY exaggerated.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Of course Papagenos responds to this...

 

[TheCJBrine]

We're definitely getting Big Chungus as our final fighter.

Smash is already wholesome 100 thanks to my boi Steve, but it'll finally be wholesome 101 when Chungus joins him in the fray.

Sorry if ya don't want 'im, Doc, but that's how it be.

 

[Louie G.]

What first party character do you think is underrated in terms if chance?

Maybe I’m deluding myself here, but I think Rhythm Heaven is worth at least a little more discussion. I don’t expect it at all mind you, but I think there’s a bit of a case to be made.

We had Min Min and Pyra / Mythra added after Sakurai expressed he didn’t have the time to implement them into base game. As we all know by now RH was shut out of Smash 4 despite likely being planned in some capacity, and development on Ultimate pretty much kicked off immediately after Smash 4. If this DLC truly does seek to tie up loose ends or revisit some less fortunate ideas, Rhythm Heaven is a great series to look toward.

...Again though, it’s far from what I’m expecting, but if it did happen I would be unbelievably happy. Perhaps we’ll get a new game for its 15th anniversary and maybe things won’t look as grim.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Of course Papagenos responds to this...

Papagenos: It's free real estate.

 

[DarkFalcon]

I'd love BoTW Zelda but I don't think that'd go over too well with those who want other Zelda reps.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

The swordfighter complaints are mostly just a parroted scapegoat for typical Smash salt.

A large portion of the fanbase is only willing to entertain something they want before the reveal and are unwilling to reexamine things that are new.

When a character is revealed that they don't like, want or know, they get mad and won't try to look at the positives or learn about the new character or franchise. It's an instant dismissal of the unknown hence the really stupid "nobody asked for this".

A large amount of the sword fighters on the roster are from more niche franchises (Fire Emblem, Xenoblade, Dragon Quest in tbe west) so less people know them. If that group doesn't know them, they get mean.

This is why people like Sephiroth dont get as many complaints. Those people know him. By saying it's the swordfighters that are the problem, these people can feel self righteous in their non existant crusade against "bad choices." All the swordfighter complaints disappear if it's one they want. Funnily enough, this causes that group to cannibalize itself a lot. Sora fights can get REALLY nasty.

There are people with legitimate beef with the art styles and playstyles, but I've noticed those people tend to be able to articulate their thoughts better than just a parroted phrase that's spouted religiously.

TLDR: it's just people being salty.

That makes a lot of sense, and also makes it more depressing that Byleth's moveset is "how do we give him weapons that aren't swords" instead of "let's explore his personal abilities".

All the swordfighter complaints disappear if it's one they want. Funnily enough, this causes that group to cannibalize itself a lot. Sora fights can get REALLY nasty.

Well that's silly. Don't they know the Keyblade is a club.

But seriously, he strikes with the blunt "edge", I am still not over this.

...they're just looked at Byleth and saw Marth.

Anecdotal, but my mom looked at Byleth and thought he was a redesigned Marth (or at least, looked like one. I forget which.).