Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[ahemtoday]

Personally, I wasn't particularly a fan of Byleth or their moveset. (Just to keep the conversation focused, I'll just discuss the latter here today.) But I don't think the sword really had much to do with it at all. I do appreciate the use of various weapon types, and the directional thing is a fun touch. However, I just think Byleth's moveset feels... extraordinarily basic in terms of functionality.
It's not because of the sword - look at Hero, a swordie whose chargeable specials (especially Kaswoosh) give them a unique feel even before you look at their hilariously chaotic down-B.
Heck, it's not even that they don't really have a "gimmick" - we got Sephiroth, a swordsman whose only "gimmick" is out-of-the-way and arguably unnecessary, and he felt fine. Flare is a strong-but-slow projectile, and Shadow Flare is a timing-based status thing that leads to cool setups. He's slow but light, which we don't see a lot of.
In comparison, Byleth's specials really don't... feel that special. Failnaught is a chargeable bow projectile with minor differences from Link's. Areadbhar is... a strike with Areadbhar that may as well just be their forward smash. The Sword of the Creator is actually cool, but I remember comparing it to Joker's grappling hook. And Aymr is a Falcon Punch.
All of these moves are mildly-different takes on types of moves that have existed in Smash since its inception. Of course a lot of characters have moves that go over well-tread ground like this, but those are typically backup dancers for more exciting specials. Water Shuriken may be a typical chargeable projectile neutral-B, but that's okay because Greninja has stuff like Shadow Sneak. Palutena's up-B may just be a teleport, but she has Autoreticle and Explosive Flame. Byleth... just has Sword of the Creator. Which, as I mentioned, still reminds me of Joker's up-B.

 

[BlondeLombax]

Papagenos: It's free real estate.

Not until Blocked Content posts some crackpot theory about how Ryu is either doomed or confirmed by some wizardry. Let ‘em ramble. It’s funny.

 

[SpecterFlower]

Maybe I’m deluding myself here, but I think Rhythm Heaven is worth at least a little more discussion. I don’t expect it at all mind you, but I think there’s a bit of a case to be made.

We had Min Min and Pyra / Mythra added after Sakurai expressed he didn’t have the time to implement them into base game. As we all know by now RH was shut out of Smash 4 despite likely being planned in some capacity. If this DLC truly does seek to tie up loose ends or revisit some less fortunate ideas, Rhythm Heaven is a great series to look toward.

...Again though, it’s far from what I’m expecting, but if it did happen I would be unbelievably happy. Perhaps we’ll get a new game for its 15th anniversary and maybe things won’t look as grim.

definitely, i feel style savvy and rhythm heaven are basically the last two alive Nintendo series at the time fp2 was being decided upon (2019)

the case is stronger for rhythm heaven since it was scrapped from smash, however style savvy has another game coming soon (or another fashion game by syn sophia with tie's to Nintendo, so basically it's style savvy) so i do think she's worth some thought as a character.

I also would love to see the toxic reactions to stylist, "What is this girly ****!?" it'd be wonderful.

 

[2006ToyotaTacoma]

We're definitely getting Big Chungus as our final fighter.

Smash is already wholesome 100 thanks to my boi Steve, but it'll finally be wholesome 101 when Chungus joins him in the fray.

Sorry if ya don't want 'im, Doc, but that's how it be.

Here sir, your Reddit Gold.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

We're definitely getting Big Chungus as our final fighter.

Smash is already wholesome 100 thanks to my boi Steve, but it'll finally be wholesome 101 when Chungus joins him in the fray.

Sorry if ya don't want 'im, Doc, but that's how it be.

7.8/10 you didn’t mention Keanu

 

[SpecterFlower]

Here sir, your Reddit Gold.

r/ihavereddit

 

[TCT~Phantom]

The swordfighter complaints are mostly just a parroted scapegoat for typical Smash salt.

A large portion of the fanbase is only willing to entertain something they want before the reveal and are unwilling to reexamine things that are new.

When a character is revealed that they don't like, want or know, they get mad and won't try to look at the positives or learn about the new character or franchise. It's an instant dismissal of the unknown hence the really stupid "nobody asked for this".

A large amount of the sword fighters on the roster are from more niche franchises (Fire Emblem, Xenoblade, Dragon Quest in tbe west) so less people know them. If that group doesn't know them, they get mean.

This is why people like Sephiroth dont get as many complaints. Those people know him. By saying it's the swordfighters that are the problem, these people can feel self righteous in their non existant crusade against "bad choices." All the swordfighter complaints disappear if it's one they want. Funnily enough, this causes that group to cannibalize itself a lot. Sora fights can get REALLY nasty.

There are people with legitimate beef with the art styles and playstyles, but I've noticed those people tend to be able to articulate their thoughts better than just a parroted phrase that's spouted religiously.

TLDR: it's just people being salty.

While I agree with this to an extent, I do think it ignores the fact that one thing people are asking for when they do say these "too many swordfighters" complaints is that they wish for variety. Yes, Smash fans can be nasty when their anime swordfighter does not get in. I am already bracing for the controversy over the final character. But even some that were met with some controversy like Pyrthra and Hero got accepted later because they offered something interesting design wise. Part of the reason Pythra, Hero, and especially Sephiroth did not get nearly as much complaints as Byleth is the fact that they all offered something new in terms of game design. Sephiroth had One Wing, interesting projectiles, and gives this feeling of playing as a boss character. Hero brought the MP gauge. Pythra reintroduced switching characters. I know Pythra and Hero did get some salt when they first debuted, but that salt died down relatively quickly because the characters offered something that made them feel distinct.

This is where I feel a large part of the beef with Byleth that has stuck around to this day comes into play. Byleth is boring. Plain as day. They had to try to address the too many swordsmen comments in the trailer. While Byleth does use the other weapons, Byleth's playstyle still is pretty much on par with the average swordie. Even as a fan of Three Houses, I was left wanting when it came to Byleth. I genuinely feel choosing one of the lords and working on their moveset from there would have been the better choice. Have Dimitri be this Lancer archeatype, Edelgard could be this armored tank, or have Claude have an archery based moveset. Instead, Byleth tries to do all of those and fails miserably. Everything Byleth does feels stiff and awkward.

There are a lot of reasons to be upset by Byleth besides this. I know the core reason a lot are mad is the "too many fire emblem characters" argument, but at the end of the day given two of them are echos and one is a semi clone I think it is not that big an issue. I think if we got a character that had a more dynamic or interesting moveset they would have had an icy welcome sure, but I still think they would have been accepted at the end of the day.

If we do get a fourth swordsmen this set, I hope they have something to make them pop. So long as the character feels fun and unique, I do not care if they have a sword.

 

[UltimateCyborgOverlord]

Here's a question.

What first party character do you think is underrated in terms if chance?

I think its Waluigi.

I feel like the backlash against his deconfirmation was strong enough that Nintendo may make him the sole exception.

I don't find him too likely, but he's very underrated.

Waluigi with the return of the Red Shell Mii hat... "It's more likely than you think!"

That's why I keep saying.... Sonic, Mario, and Pokemon.... two of those three are the final two, I'm CONVINCED... until something pops up later.

Shadow and Waluigi revealed at the same time as "The Promoted Assist Pair"

Mario and a Pokemon character as "The Evergreen Pair"

Sonic and Pokemon as "The Anniversary Pair"

That's my bet and I'm stickin to it until further notice.

 

[SWSU]

I've always held the belief that when it comes to Fire Emblem, the easiest way to improve reception would be to have them sit the next game out. Nobody new from FE gets added into Smash 6.

Then when Smash 7 comes along, and we get a new fighter, people will be like "Okay, its been a while. They deserve a rep"

 

[cashregister9]

IMO Style Savvy and Rhythm Heaven are the 2 Nintendo Franchises that are not dead per say but only really get acknowledged in an official capacity once a new game comes out, same goes for WarioWare and Nintendogs. so when it comes to smash I can see a character from one of those series happening only if a new game is in development.


That's not dunking on any of these series though, I love all of them and a smash rep would be really quirky and cool.

 

[DarthEnderX]

It's hard to believe that Hayabusa is now dead.

Hayabusa: "In death,

"

 

[SpecterFlower]

IMO Style Savvy and Rhythm Heaven are the 2 Nintendo Franchises that are not dead per say but only really get acknowledged in an official capacity once a new game comes out, same goes for WarioWare and Nintendogs. so when it comes to smash I can see a character from one of those series happening only if a new game is in development.

well, there's another style savvy coming soon (not announced yet though)

 

[DarkFalcon]

While I agree with this to an extent, I do think it ignores the fact that one thing people are asking for when they do say these "too many swordfighters" complaints is that they wish for variety. Yes, Smash fans can be nasty when their anime swordfighter does not get in. I am already bracing for the controversy over the final character. But even some that were met with some controversy like Pyrthra and Hero got accepted later because they offered something interesting design wise. Part of the reason Pythra, Hero, and especially Sephiroth did not get nearly as much complaints as Byleth is the fact that they all offered something new in terms of game design. Sephiroth had One Wing, interesting projectiles, and gives this feeling of playing as a boss character. Hero brought the MP gauge. Pythra reintroduced switching characters. I know Pythra and Hero did get some salt when they first debuted, but that salt died down relatively quickly because the characters offered something that made them feel distinct.

This is where I feel a large part of the beef with Byleth that has stuck around to this day comes into play. Byleth is boring. Plain as day. They had to try to address the too many swordsmen comments in the trailer. While Byleth does use the other weapons, Byleth's playstyle still is pretty much on par with the average swordie. Even as a fan of Three Houses, I was left wanting when it came to Byleth. I genuinely feel choosing one of the lords and working on their moveset from there would have been the better choice. Have Dimitri be this Lancer archeatype, Edelgard could be this armored tank, or have Claude have an archery based moveset. Instead, Byleth tries to do all of those and fails miserably. Everything Byleth does feels stiff and awkward.

There are a lot of reasons to be upset by Byleth besides this. I know the core reason a lot are mad is the "too many fire emblem characters" argument, but at the end of the day given two of them are echos and one is a semi clone I think it is not that big an issue. I think if we got a character that had a more dynamic or interesting moveset they would have had an icy welcome sure, but I still think they would have been accepted at the end of the day.

If we do get a fourth swordsmen this set, I hope they have something to make them pop. So long as the character feels fun and unique, I do not care if they have a sword.

I think you're falling in the classic "uniqueness" trap here. There is only so much you can do with that in an 80+ character roster. Being unique can be as much a detriment as it is a blessing.

 

[Technomage]

With everyone saying “No clue” to this prompt, I’m just gonna be happily vibin’ to the side knowing that the “ninja” archetype just opened up a wide variety of options. No offense, Ryu fans.

Like what? Ninja options I can think of are:

Taki or Yoshimitsu from Soulcalibur
Kunimitsu or Yoshimitsu from Tekken
Strider Hiryu
Raiden from Metal Gear
Scorpion or Kitana from Mortal Kombat
Senran Kagura character
Maybe Katarina Du Couteau (is she ninja enough to qualify?)
Genji or Hanzo from Overwatch
The Ninja class from Etrian Odyssey

 

[Louie G.]

Personally, I wasn't particularly a fan of Byleth or their moveset. (Just to keep the conversation focused, I'll just discuss the latter here today.) But I don't think the sword really had much to do with it at all. I do appreciate the use of various weapon types, and the directional thing is a fun touch. However, I just think Byleth's moveset feels... extraordinarily basic in terms of functionality.

You summed this up nicely for me too, and I'll expand on this by saying that I personally just get a lot more excited about characters who... feel like actual characters, yknow? Byleth is another avatar character, which are easy for me to accept when they're bringing a new series into the mix - Villager, Inkling, Steve all feel very distinct because despite being faceless avatars, the personality of their games still shine through and they were at some point the sole representatives of their series (that has changed for Animal Crossing now, but still - for what it's worth, I like Isabelle better).

Byleth is the eighth character in their series. Yeah, they carry the Three Houses weapons, but that doesn't really do a whole lot to make them feel like something fresh and new, or make up for their lack of charisma in other departments. Their personality still feels like Marth at best and Corrin at worst... which is to say, not much. Really nothing here that convinces me that I should care about them or makes me want to know more about them.

Then there's the fairly standard moveset, which I don't mind, but it's kinda baffled me when people act like using multiple weapons is something fresh and new - something that was used quite often against Monster Hunter when they were part of the conversation - when Link has arguably been doing it for years and Pit does it too. (Not to mention Mr. Game & Watch!) It's not a particularly new idea, which is fine as long as the character is fun (and that's entirely subjective) but I think people overstate the significance of this just because its from a series that had specifically been dogged on for its lack of variety. Against the Fire Emblem cast, Byleth's moveset is a breath of fresh air. Against the greater Smash cast? Unremarkable, imo.

I dunno, Byleth conversations are lame and I kinda wanted to avoid contributing to this one but it does sort of bother me that some people seem to still believe being critical of Fire Emblem's current representation or Byleth means you're just being extremely petty and unreasonable. It's alright to not like a character, or be tired of a series you don't care about consistently taking opportunities from series that don't even have a single character.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Regarding the first party discussion, I'm personally betting on Octoling. Related to a popular Switch game (that has roughly the same amount of content as pre-P/M Xenoblade 2, if I remember correctly) and if they're last they would release maybe just a few months before Splatoon 3.

Waluigi, Isaac and Ayumi are relatively close imo. The former two because of fan demand and the latter because of current relevance.

I actually don't think RH and Style Savvy are likely at all unless they get a new Switch game and Nintendo promotes the **** out of it.

 

[BlondeLombax]

Like what? Ninja options I can think of are:

Taki or Yoshimitsu from Soulcalibur
Kunimitsu or Yoshimitsu from Tekken
Strider Hiryu
Raiden from Metal Gear
Scorpion or Kitana from Mortal Kombat
Senran Kagura character
Maybe Katarina Du Couteau (is she ninja enough to qualify?)
Genji or Hanzo from Overwatch
The Ninja class from Etrian Odyssey

Asuka from Senran Kagura. I know it’s highly unlikely, but I’m still holding onto that hope anyway. Aren’t I just a hapless fool?

 

[Dinoman96]

I've been kind of thinking about Dixie Kong lately

Yeah yeah, I know she's "not DLC material" (whatever that means) but I think she's an example of a first party character that, while not super exciting for most folk, is still a choice that would generally go over well with people, certainly more so than a Gen 8 Pokemon or whatever.

There have been rumors about a new DK game of some kind hitting Switch. I do sometimes kinda wonder that if, after the bombastic reception that King K. Rool and Banjo & Kazooie's reveals got, Nintendo and Sakurai would want to have one more last hurrah with the DK/Rare fandom by putting in what is essentially the last major requested character in that regard. And I think it could also help further mitigate the issues with DK's representation that people have, like a new stage based on either DKC3 or Tropical Freeze that isn't a jungle, as well as more music.

And honestly? Despite it seeming a bit overplayed, them reusing K. Rool's trailer one last time for her reveal would actually be quite the perfect bookend for the nostalgic Rare hype train this game had.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

People say Style Saavy and Rhythm Heaven aren't dead but honest question, are there any plans for either series past the 3DS?

I feel like the last game we had from them was a long time ago with no signs of extended uss of the IP.

 

[SpecterFlower]

People say Style Saavy and Rhythm Heaven aren't dead but honest question, are there any plans for either series past the 3DS?

I feel like the last game we had from them was a long time ago with no signs of extended uss of the IP.

yes there's a new game in development for style savvy.

 

[SharkLord]

I've seen Octoling tossed around a couple times, but I dunno. I would consider them otherwise, but I think Callie and Marie's Miis brought down the entire Splatoon series. You can say they'd represent Splatoon 2 and Octo Expansion, but that's still undeniably Splatoon, regardless of which game it's from. If there was a big Splatoon content pack in the pipeline, any Splatoon Miis would most likely be timed around that pack instead of just spread throughout. Don't think we're getting a Splatoon fighter this time around.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

People say Style Saavy and Rhythm Heaven aren't dead but honest question, are there any plans for either series past the 3DS?

I feel like the last game we had from them was a long time ago with no signs of extended uss of the IP.

I dunno about Style Savvy, but Rhythm Heaven is one-hundo percent dead, as it's a really niche series that is officially stated to be relying on fan support for it's next entry.

 

[DarkFalcon]

All I want is a WarioWare for Switch.

 

[SpecterFlower]

for context this is Syn Sophia hiring for what is definitely style savvy

 

[TCT~Phantom]

People say Style Saavy and Rhythm Heaven aren't dead but honest question, are there any plans for either series past the 3DS?

I feel like the last game we had from them was a long time ago with no signs of extended uss of the IP.

I think there is a Style Savvy game coming soon. Idr the name, but I feel like there might be one..

RH though, yeah that is a bit dead. Hopefully we get something. Heck I would take a port of the 3DS game at this point.

 

[Deleted member]

If we're still talking about ninjas, then oh boy, do I have a character for you:

 

[Louie G.]

People say Style Saavy and Rhythm Heaven aren't dead but honest question, are there any plans for either series past the 3DS?

I feel like the last game we had from them was a long time ago with no signs of extended uss of the IP.

Rhythm Heaven is currently dormant, but I think it's a hard sell to call it dead. As it stands there's nothing implying a new game is on the way, but Megamix came out in 2015 (during Wii U / 3DS era) which was basically just the previous console generation. Feel like a series being dead is a notion thrown around way too often for series that seem to just be taking a break for a little while. Tsunku is still interested in continuing the series, at least.

F-Zero is a dead series, Mother is a finished series, Rhythm Heaven is a dormant series.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Here sir, your Reddit Gold.

Thank you very much, kind sir.

7.8/10 you didn’t mention Keanu

Unfortunately I’m not sure Keanu could make it into the battle. However, perhaps the Cyberpunk character based on him could? He would certainly bump the game up to Mega Wholesome 9000 if my boi Steve didn’t already.

 

[Dinoman96]

I think the problem with RH is that its producer/creator was literally battling cancer for awhile and the dev teams were/are doing other things in the meantime.

 

[Gengar84]

I've been kind of thinking about Dixie Kong lately

Yeah yeah, I know she's "not DLC material" (whatever that means) but I think she's an example of a first party character that, while not super exciting for most folk, is still a choice that would generally go over well with people, certainly more so than a Gen 8 Pokemon or whatever.

There have been rumors about a new DK game of some kind hitting Switch. I do sometimes kinda wonder that if, after the bombastic reception that King K. Rool and Banjo & Kazooie's reveals got, Nintendo and Sakurai would want to have one more last hurrah with the DK/Rare fandom by putting in what is essentially the last major requested character in that regard. And I think it could also help further mitigate the issues with DK's representation that people have, like a new stage based on either DKC3 or Tropical Freeze that isn't a jungle, as well as more music.

And honestly? Despite it seeming a bit overplayed, them reusing K. Rool's trailer one last time for her reveal would actually be quite the perfect bookend for the nostalgic Rare hype train this game had.

I would be excited for Dixie as long as she was either partnered up with Kiddy or used the animal buddies in her move set in some way. I feel like the tag team mechanic and the animal buddies were a pretty important part of the DKC games and it would be nice to at least one of these to be represented in Smash. I would still be happy enough regardless because DKC 2 is one of my favorite games ever and Smash is still lacking in DKC and Tropical Freeze music.

 

[SpecterFlower]

for the record syn sophia rebranded to syn sophia after style savvy, before that they made wrestling games. so it's almost definitely style savvy.

UGHUGHGUGHGG I was listening to music and youtube gave me a pickup artist ad about how women are hardwired to always get attracted to something about men jesus. UGH. I know im lesbian sometimes but come on youtube, what did i do to deserve this, it's so creepy.

 

[DevaAshera]

The KH-original content is still owned by Disney, though. (at least as far as I can tell)

I don't know anything about copyright law, but Disney's credited for everything aside from the Final Fantasy (or The World Ends With You) content and a few movies (whether it's the Nightmare Before Christmas, which was released through a subsidiary of Disney rather than Disney itself, or Tarzan, which is credited to Edgar Rice Burroughs, Inc.).

Disney definitely has the lion's share of the legal ownership but that doesn't quite account for the actual wording of the deals they've got worked out. Disney would definitely be a factor in getting Sora involved in anything though.

I do know that Square's pretty loose about adding the KH versions of Final Fantasy characters to spin-offs though.

All original content in the Kingdom Hearts series, from characters to music to worlds, is owned entirely by Disney.
"A lot of people are confused about who exactly owns Kingdom Hearts, but it's Disney - it's developed in partnership with Square-Enix." - John Vignocchi, VP of Production for Disney Infinity.

Kingdom Hearts Comes to Disney Infinity at D23 Expo

At D23 Expo 2015, the Disney Interactive team promised news on both Kingdom Hearts and Disney [...]

comicbook.com

However, from what I've heard, whenever there's a big enough thing that Disney wants to do with Kingdom Hearts, they consult Nomura, so they'd probably get his okay for Sora in Smash, which works out since Sakurai would definitely consult Nomura for how Sora would be portrayed in the game.

When it comes to adding Sora into Final Fantasy properties, its likely due to a mixture of not being very protective of Sora along with Square-Enix being the publishers/developers of the series.

If Square-Enix had any ownership of Kingdom Hearts, that first copyright bit would be '©2005 Disney / Square-Enix' not just '©2005 Disney' akin to how everything Xenoblade Chronicles 2 is credited as '©2017 Nintendo / MonolithSoft' and everything Fire Emblem Three Houses is credited as '©2019 Nintendo / Intelligent Systems'

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I think the problem with RH is that its producer/creator was literally battling cancer for awhile and the dev teams were/are doing other things in the meantime.

Didn’t he have his vocal chords surgically removed too?

 

[SpecterFlower]

Didn’t he have his vocal chords surgically removed too?

yeah he did, i think he's doing better now though

the main artist seems to still have interest in it as well.

 

[ahemtoday]

I think the problem with RH is that its producer/creator was literally battling cancer for awhile and the dev teams were/are doing other things in the meantime.

Tsunku actually had to have his vocal chords taken out 'cause of that. And the guy's a musician, so it must really suck for him.

I think he's expressed interest in doing another RH, though.

 

[Louie G.]

And honestly? Despite it seeming a bit overplayed, them reusing K. Rool's trailer one last time for her reveal would actually be quite the perfect bookend for the nostalgic Rare hype train this game had.

This is kinda why Dixie would be underwhelming for me, I'm personally satisfied with the copious amounts of love directed at Rare in Ultimate through K. Rool and Banjo. DKC's Smash representation felt redeemed when K. Rool showed up (one of my most wanted characters) and when we got all those cool new classic DKC remixes (I just about lost my **** when I saw Crocodile Cacophony got an arrangement). Banjo & Kazooie are obviously kind of their own thing.

For me, I'm ready to see other series that haven't seen that kind of "redemption" get additional content before piling on Dixie Kong. I think DKC has had it really good this game and there's some more pressing untapped territory to cover. I wouldn't say I'd be upset with Dixie or anything, but I wouldn't really be excited at this point either. Out of the commonly brought up duo of "Nintendo all-stars" I'd definitely prefer to see Bandana Dee with new Kirby content instead.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

yes there's a new game in development for style savvy.

Ah. It's an IP to watch for then.

I think it's more likely for an AT, but it's on my radar then.

Hope the RH creator gets better soon.

 

[SpecterFlower]

yeah it isn't much but ko takeuchi did comment on rhythm heaven reanimated " Thank you from the bottom of my heart. " so he still seems to care a lot about the series.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

As far as DKC content in Ultimate, quite frankly the music selection and offering of stages could still be loads better. Even with K Rool's inclusion its a franchise that really use greater focus beyond the Jungle Japes/DKC1 emphasis, and Dixie feels like a great avenue for that.

In regards to Rhythm Heaven and Style Savvy, both feel like the more modest Nintendo franchises that really don't have much of a home now that the less expensive first party market that the 3DS was faded away. There's a potential future for them as digital only titles getting once in a blue moon physical releases, but then you can say that for a lot of inactive Nintendo IP's. There's no reason the aforementioned series can't continue as eshop exclusives alongside a new Advance Wars or Pushmo, and yet we don't have any of them.

 

[Wunderwaft]

Actually, since you brought up Dreamy and Boisterous Holy Land, people found something really cool in it recently. At around 3:40, you can hear faint beeping in the background. Apparently that's actually Morse code for "SOUND TEAM JDK LUV 4 U SOUND TEAM JDK BE PROGRESSIVE 4 U". I love it when composers put little easter eggs in their songs like that.

Oh yeah I heard about this yesterday from one of my friends. These small little secrets amaze me, makes me wonder if Ryo planted more subtle easter eggs in his songs.