DDD's standing infinite should not be banned.

[Nanaki]

It's important because everyone seems to say 'why don't we ban all these things to make x character/s viable?' A number of things would have to be done in comparison to one. It's not something to be disregarded when you use 'why only DK and not others?' as your reason to have it not banned.

Tbh, I don't really care that much about the argument. It's just little things that seem to have got me slightly annoyed somewhere. I don't even know what it was now.

You still didn't say why doing a number of things is worse than doing 1 thing when making characters viable. If we're banning something, why not keep going? We can make a perfectly balanced game!

...or not.

Lol. It seems like we've come to a standstill. Its a matter of opinion I guess. I think it sucks that I could beat a top DK with Dedede and I'm sure he'd think it sucks too.



Correct me if I'm wrong but can't the others only mash out at high percentages?

[/QUOTE]

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, and I won't try to make you change it. I (and the SBR ruleset) simply disagree. Shucks.

I'm sure the DK main would think it sucks, but that doesn't mean it's worthy of a ban. Hell, if I was watching, I would think it sucks, too.

And Onishiba beat me to it, but everyone except those 2 characters can't be infinited until after 100% or so. You have to pummel or dthrow stales and it's not a standing infinite. Characters can mash out on the pummels.

Oh, I just skim through people whom might be trolling or just plain dumb. I actually read what RDK and Nanaki say.

And why are we even bring other characters into this thread? Ganon vs ICs is a separate case, if you want to talk about banning or not banning that, make another thread. We are here discussing if DDD's infinite chaingrab.

I'm flattered that you actually read my posts. Thanks!

We're bringing other characters in here because the premise of banning this applies directly to those situations as well.

Dedede's standing infinite, frankly, does not affect enough of the tournament environment to be considered worthy of enforcing a ban standard.

Seriously, Ankoku, can you just close this? It's not productive at all, and has been argued to death.

 

[Brinzy]

The point of that post wasn't, "you're stupid if you don't counterpick."

The point of that post was, "if it's so easy to fix in <addressed> eyes, why isn't it so easy to get around?" The solution seems simple to some people yet there are still simple solutions that are disregarded.

Had nothing to do with actual intelligence and had a lot more to do with the individuals who are thinking that everyone else who has ever debated on this subject clearly can't see what they're talking about, and was also nailing the inconsistency in their trains-of-thought.

 

[_Keno_]

Dedede's standing infinite, frankly, does not affect enough of the tournament environment to be considered worthy of enforcing a ban standard.

Do you mean it doesn't affect the overall metagame enough to warrant a ban?
It being not banned affects the metagame much more negatively than it being banned, thats for sure.

Is character counter picking the only thing that keeps it from being banned? If not, then what if DDD had it on every character? Then would it warrant a ban?

And yes, this discussion is going nowhere. A more complex statement of why SBR has not banned it would suffice instead of all this bad arguing.

 

[RDK]

If you truly believe that banning DDD's CG would limit the metagame, then I have no reason to read anymore of your posts.

Also RDK, I already gave my personal opinion of what is ban worthy, a page or two ago.

I don't want your personal opinion, I want ban criteria with scientific measurements as well as definitions for "unfair" and "easy".

 

[Red Arremer]

Do you mean it doesn't affect the overall metagame enough to warrant a ban?
It being not banned affects the metagame much more negatively than it being banned, thats for sure.

Is character counter picking the only thing that keeps it from being banned? If not, then what if DDD had it on every character? Then would it warrant a ban?

lol, what-if-scenarios. If Dedede would have an infinite on every character in the game, the technique would be banned. Simple as that. But that's just stupid theorycrafting in fantasy worlds and not even worth argueing.

I love how people pull s*** outta their ***es.

 

[Nanaki]

Do you mean it doesn't affect the overall metagame enough to warrant a ban?
It being not banned affects the metagame much more negatively than it being banned, thats for sure.

Is character counter picking the only thing that keeps it from being banned? If not, then what if DDD had it on every character? Then would it warrant a ban?

And yes, this discussion is going nowhere. A more complex statement of why it is not banned would suffice instead of all this bad arguing.

If DDD could infinite each and every character, it would obviously be worthy of a ban. It would become 'play DDD or lose', the definition of ban-worthy criteria.

As it stands, that's not the case.

 

[Zankoku]

You pick a character and deal with all the problems and hopeless matchups that go with it. Banning anything is acceptable as a final solution, not as a knee-jerk reaction to "omg so broken vs my character." Yes, putting time into strictly better characters will give you better results in the short term. That's why they're better. Also, claiming that every character choice is ****ed is kinda funny (the quote " There is no guarantee that you will do better with your secondary on their CP since they can pick that secondary's worst MU") - is the game really so heavily based on matchups that the results are instantly determined on the character select screen?

Do you mean it doesn't affect the overall metagame enough to warrant a ban?
It being not banned affects the metagame much more negatively than it being banned, thats for sure.

Really now? I'd say it affects the metagame about as much.

Is character counter picking the only thing that keeps it from being banned? If not, then what if DDD had it on every character? Then would it warrant a ban?

Uhh, maybe? At that point it'd be a discussion on how broken of a technique it is. Would the metagame devolve to "your only viable choice ever is Dedede?" If so, then the obvious answer would be to ban it because it has visibly warped the metagame.

And yes, this discussion is going nowhere. A more complex statement of why SBR has not banned it would suffice instead of all this bad arguing.

I already told you why the SBR has not banned it. Because it doesn't matter enough to say "the entire country should ban this technique."

 

[RDK]

is the game really so heavily based on matchups that the results are instantly determined on the character select screen?

Some people seem to think so. Although I just call that whining.

I still would like to know why pro-ban thinks Dedede's infinite is different than any other tactic, move, or attribute that effects any other characters' matchup adversely.

 

[_Keno_]

I'm flattered that you actually read my posts. Thanks!

We're bringing other characters in here because the premise of banning this applies directly to those situations as well.

Firstly, you're welcome.

Secondly, anything to do with banning something because it is unfairly good against ganon does not apply at all to this thread. (lol)

Also, the main point of my "if DDD could do it on every character" is to see if counterpicking was the only thing stopping this from being banned.

 

[Silfa]

You still didn't say why doing a number of things is worse than doing 1 thing when making characters viable. If we're banning something, why not keep going? We can make a perfectly balanced game!

...or not.

At the moment, I really can't think of an argument (that won't get immediately shut down) against that. Good job.

I dunno, I just guess it seems to come down to that feeling where you believe the game would be better without and you sort of argue just because you have that belief.

 

[swordgard]

Firstly, you're welcome.

Secondly, anything to do with banning something because it is unfairly good against ganon does not apply at all to this thread. (lol)

Also, the main point of my "if DDD could do it on every character" is to see if counterpicking was the only thing stopping this from being banned.

And why is that?



Why would ganon be any different?

 

[RDK]

Firstly, you're welcome.

Secondly, anything to do with banning something because it is unfairly good against ganon does not apply at all to this thread. (lol)

Yes it does. Your main line of reasoning is that the infinite should be banned because it makes DK's matchup too unfair. How can you not see how utterly subjective that is?

 

[Silfa]

And why is that?



Why would ganon be any different?

Ganon is bad. Pretty blunt, but we all know why.

DK has potential (poor word choice here, bring on the'but what is potential? how do you define it?' haha) to be a good tournament character if this tactic was not around.

That's how I see it anyway.

 

[Zankoku]

Ganon is bad. Pretty blunt, but we all know why.

DK has potential (poor word choice here, bring on the'but what is potential? how do you define it?' haha) to be a good tournament character if this tactic was not around.

That's how I see it anyway.

At the same time, both DK and Ganondorf see relatively low tournament numbers, so something that affects one is approximately as significant as something that affects the other.

 

[Shuzaku]

DK isn't THAT viable IMO even if Dedede's Standing Infinite was banned. His matchup spread isn't that good against the higher tier characters, and he's not even a "niche" threat to characters (almost every character DK has the advantage on, another character already beats them harder.)

Think about it; Dedede would still beat DK, just maybe not as severe with the infinite grab gone. That would not contribute to DK suddenly becoming "more" viable since only 1 of his matchups would slightly improve from terrible to "bearable".

Arguing for the Infinite to be banned on the basis of creating more diversity doesn't really seem to hold weight when you think about it for longer thana few minutes.

 

[Silfa]

At the same time, both DK and Ganondorf see relatively low tournament numbers, so something that affects one is approximately as significant as something that affects the other.

It could be said that's because of the chaingrab. Why pick up a character when you know that character can be countered with an autowin after a counterpick?

 

[Nanaki]

Firstly, you're welcome.

Secondly, anything to do with banning something because it is unfairly good against ganon does not apply at all to this thread. (lol)

Also, the main point of my "if DDD could do it on every character" is to see if counterpicking was the only thing stopping this from being banned.

Banning something because it's unfair to Ganon is completely pertinent to this thread for the reasons I've been explaining to Silfa (and to you, though not as directly).

The title says DDD, but we can apply the principles to other characters.

At the moment, I really can't think of an argument (that won't get immediately shut down) against that. Good job.

I dunno, I just guess it seems to come down to that feeling where you believe the game would be better without and you sort of argue just because you have that belief.

Why thank you.

I can understand that feeling. It feels wrong to have one character sit on another repeatedly and win. But competitively, we just can't use that as a reason for a ban.

Ganon is bad. Pretty blunt, but we all know why.

DK has potential (poor word choice here, bring on the'but what is potential? how do you define it?' haha) to be a good tournament character if this tactic was not around.

That's how I see it anyway.

I at least can understand your reasoning and opinions. They're not enough to ban, but they make sense and you accept that there are holes in it.

People could learn from you.

At the same time, both DK and Ganondorf see relatively low tournament numbers, so something that affects one is approximately as significant as something that affects the other.

Thanks for stating that in a way that I couldn't seem to manage.

 

[Big O]

The point of that post wasn't, "you're stupid if you don't counterpick."

The point of that post was, "if it's so easy to fix in <addressed> eyes, why isn't it so easy to get around?" The solution seems simple to some people yet there are still simple solutions that are disregarded.

Had nothing to do with actual intelligence and had a lot more to do with the individuals who are thinking that everyone else who has ever debated on this subject clearly can't see what they're talking about, and was also nailing the inconsistency in their trains-of-thought.

Because it is inconsistent to want to address easy to fix problems instead of avoiding them just because both are simple solutions? Get back to me when avoiding DK (and others) has 0 downsides. The ban is the better simple solution.

 

[_Keno_]

Banning something because it's unfair to Ganon is completely pertinent to this thread for the reasons I've been explaining to Silfa (and to you, though not as directly).

The title says DDD, but we can apply the principles to other characters.

Ganon is royally screwed even if you took his 5 worst matchups out of the game. DK could actually be a decent character if DDD couldn't infinite him. That is the difference.


And whatever, I guess I'll just be in disagreement with SBR's decision, not that it affects me in any way.

 

[Nanaki]

Because it is inconsistent to want to address easy to fix problems instead of avoiding them just because both are simple solutions? Get back to me when avoiding DK (and others) has 0 downsides. The ban is the better simple solution.

Better for who?

It could be said that's because of the chaingrab. Why pick up a character when you know that character can be countered with an autowin after a counterpick?

Good point, but the infinite is banned in most places anyway. And his tourney results are still around the midway point of the cast.

Ganon is royally screwed even if you took his 5 worst matchups our of the game. DK could actually be a decent character if DDD couldn't infinite him. That is the difference.


And whatever, I guess I'll just be in disagreement with SBR's decision, not that it affects me in any way.

I'll ask it again, why does it matter if 1 removal makes DK viable but it takes 30 for Ganon? We're fully capable of doing both. It's just easier to do it for DK. We make a character viable instead of another because it's easier?

 

[Silfa]

I'll ask it again, why does it matter if 1 removal makes DK viable but it takes 30 for Ganon? We're fully capable of doing both. It's just easier to do it for DK. We make a character viable instead of another because it's easier?

It is easier really. Getting rid of 30 things will create lots of whining and be a lot more trouble than it would be worth.

Having one removed on the other hand, won't create nearly as many 'wait, wtf? why?' scenarios and can be countered with 'Dedede loses nothing, still has advantages on those characters and ultimately helps other characters at the same time' if they do arise.

 

[Ripple]

DK isn't THAT viable IMO even if Dedede's Standing Infinite was banned. His matchup spread isn't that good against the higher tier characters, and he's not even a "niche" threat to characters (almost every character DK has the advantage on, another character already beats them harder.)

.

DK's match up spread isn't that good? you obviously don't know much about DK.

DK has an advantage or goes even with every single character in the game except MK, DDD, and ICs. you don't consider that a good match up spread? WOW!

if you remember DK was 10th on the tier list for a reason. He dominated everyone with his ability to kill at 90%. and DDD's infinite didn't affect that tier list (iirc). Now he has moved down to 18th because the SBR knows how unviable DK is now with a 100-0 match up

 

[RDK]

It is easier really. Getting rid of 30 things will create lots of whining and be a lot more trouble than it would be worth.

Having one removed on the other hand, won't create nearly as many 'wait, wtf? why?' scenarios and can be countered with 'Dedede loses nothing, still has advantages on those characters and ultimately helps other characters at the same time' if they do arise.

But why that one? Why do DK mains get special privilege over the other people who whine about their mains? This is what you're not understanding, and what pro-ban fails to answer.

And Dedede doesn't "lose nothing", or there wouldn't even be a problem. Stop acting like your opinion means more than anybody else's.

Oh, and I'm still waiting for those degrees / measurements of fairness and easiness.

Edit: Sparkle Motion, you are a fool. There's no such thing as a 100-0 matchup.

 

[Nanaki]

It is easier really. Getting rid of 30 things will create lots of whining and be a lot more trouble than it would be worth.

Having one removed on the other hand, won't create nearly as many 'wait, wtf? why?' scenarios and can be countered with 'Dedede loses nothing, still has advantages on those characters and ultimately helps other characters at the same time' if they do arise.

There's plenty of whining from NOT banning the DDD infinite (12 pages of 40 per page currently), but the SBR isn't about to just ban it because people whine about it. They'd ban it if it was the right competitive choice. Just like banning X things to make Y character viable would be if we were to start banning things to make anyone viable.

 

[Brinzy]

Because it is inconsistent to want to address easy to fix problems instead of avoiding them just because both are simple solutions? Get back to me when avoiding DK (and others) has 0 downsides. The ban is the better simple solution.

Avoiding any character in the game has downsides, and why is it better to ban? Broken record here: what is the criteria?

"Stalling is banned, <insert reasons>

These stages are banned, <insert reasons>

DDD's SI is banned because (it's unfair? it hurts the metagame? WHY is it to be banned?)"

 

[Silfa]

But why that one? Why do DK mains get special privilege over the other people who whine about their mains? This is what you're not understanding, and what pro-ban fails to answer.

And Dedede doesn't "lose nothing", or there wouldn't even be a problem. Stop acting like your opinion means more than anybody else's.

Oh, and I'm still waiting for those degrees / measurements of fairness and easiness.

Edit: Sparkle Motion, you are a fool. There's no such thing as a 100-0 matchup.

Woah, I'm really not trying to sound like I'm better than anyone else. If I have done that, I apologise, as that was not my intention. Please don't tell me to bluntly stop acting a certain way when I'm not trying to all though. Sorry if I sound up myself again there, I really don't mean to.

Anyway, it's not just DK who gets a special privilege for this. Around 8 other characters benefit in some way or another.

I don't see how Dedede doesn't 'lose nothing' to be honest. Obviously, he loses something, but it's not the thing that makes him a very high tiered character by any means. I don't think I've seen any Dedede's say 'no infinite makes Dedede worse' How does it really effect the character?

 

[Nanaki]

DK's match up spread isn't that good? you obviously don't know much about DK.

DK has an advantage or goes even with every single character in the game except MK, DDD, and ICs. you don't consider that a good match up spread? WOW!

if you remember DK was 10th on the tier list for a reason. He dominated everyone with his ability to kill at 90%. and DDD's infinite didn't affect that tier list (iirc). Now he has moved down to 18th because the SBR knows how unviable DK is now with a 100-0 match up

I admittedly don't know much about DK, but I figured Falco and Oli were difficult for him too. Are they considered even by mains on both sides?

 

[Big O]

Avoiding any character in the game has downsides, and why is it better to ban? Broken record here: what is the criteria?

"Stalling is banned, <insert reasons>

These stages are banned, <insert reasons>

DDD's SI is banned because (it's unfair? it hurts the metagame? WHY is it to be banned?)"

I am just going to say I'm sorry for misinterpreting your earlier quote if you just meant switching characters as opposed to just the CP deal I took issues with. This thread is indeed a broken record. I'm done.

 

[Brinzy]

Also, for the record, tournament results influence the tier list far more than matchups do, so while DDD's thing on DK has a direct effect on him, the indirect effect is a lot larger and even then, the bottom line is that he's played a lot less.

Just saying that this does not keep him down solely and he has the ability to rise in the future.

I am just going to say I'm sorry for misinterpreting your earlier quote if you just meant switching characters as opposed to just the CP deal I took issues with. This thread is indeed a broken record. I'm done.

Yes, that's all I meant.

I was actually done for the most part myself because I didn't really see anything get done but I figured you deserved an explanation at least.

 

[Zankoku]

Anyway, it's not just DK who gets a special privilege for this. Around 8 other characters benefit in some way or another.

Actually, at most five benefit from it, and realistically only one (DK) actually benefits from it. Luigi, Samus, and Mario are all able to break out at lower %'s due to the necessity of pummeling once between each grab to prevent the decay that kills the infinite for them, and Bowser can just get small-step chaingrabbed because it technically isn't an infinite since Dedede is taking a single step forward between each grab. I don't know where you're getting eight from.

 

[Silfa]

Actually, at most five benefit from it, and realistically only one (DK) actually benefits from it. Luigi, Samus, and Mario are all able to break out at lower %'s due to the necessity of pummeling once between each grab to prevent the decay that kills the infinite for them, and Bowser can just get small-step chaingrabbed because it technically isn't an infinite since Dedede is taking a single step forward between each grab. I don't know where you're getting eight from.

Lol, I saw someone else use the figure earlier in the thread so I just went with it. I would've said five otherwise, but you are definitely right. my bad on that one.

 

[1048576]

It doesn't overcentralize, so it shouldn't be banned.

If we banned things in order to make matchups more even, then I can think of several things that should be banned along with this. (Pika's chaingrab on Fox, MK's tornado, pretty much every non-neutral stage, etc...)

 

[Spelt]

lol MK's tornado is the least of MK's brokenness.

 

[FB Dj_Iskascribble]

cant d3 just small step dk anyway

 

[1048576]

lol MK's tornado is the least of MK's brokenness.

True, but it's what skews several of his nigh impossible to lose matchups.

 

[Spelt]

his air camping and planking abilities have way more to do with it.
not to mention his completely unpunishable up+b unless you mess it up.

 

[RDK]

his air camping and planking abilities have way more to do with it.
not to mention his completely unpunishable up+b unless you mess it up.

Not really, it has more to do with the way priority is integrated (or, rather, not integrated) into the game, which in turn makes Metaknight's arsenal ridiculous. Not just tornado BTW, pretty much all of his moves.

 

[Spelt]

Not just tornado BTW, pretty much all of his moves.

...including his aerials?!!?!!?!

 

[Flayl]

Actually, at most five benefit from it, and realistically only one (DK) actually benefits from it. Luigi, Samus, and Mario are all able to break out at lower %'s due to the necessity of pummeling once between each grab to prevent the decay that kills the infinite for them, and Bowser can just get small-step chaingrabbed because it technically isn't an infinite since Dedede is taking a single step forward between each grab. I don't know where you're getting eight from.

How many times are people going to have to bring up ledge/platform infinites? It's more than 5.

 

[Brinzy]

They're situational and are arguably about as simple to avoid...