DDD's standing infinite should not be banned.

[FatJackieChan]

People would want balance among all characters.

Let's take both ends of the tier list and give them the same amazing tech: MK and Ganondorf both get a tech that allows them to combo into any credible move (credible as in, obviously nothing will ever combo into Warlock Punch) they have... MK gets flamed while Ganondorf gets praised. Why is this? It's because MK has already lots of pro's to his character traits, and he can abuse this tech much better than G-Dorf can. G-Dorf, as a character with little to no chance of beating high tiers, will be left this tech to do as he pleases so as to make him a better character than he currently is... MK's a 10/10 (in terms of balance), G-Dorf it a 1/10. This tech gives them 2 points. Now MK is a 12/10 and G-Dorf is a 3/10. MK is now "too good". That's a pretty easy way of seeing how this works.

If G-Dorf would get a grab infinite with the same physics as DDD's dthrow infinite, no one would care either due to how hard it is to grab with him. However, if (and it already has happened) DDD gets the infinite, people will complain about it due to how easy it is to grab as DDD.


It's all about character traits here... Still, this doesn't help at all in deciding why would DDD's current infinite should be banned. Speculating about "what if..."'s doesn't make a move less bannable, or more bannable. "What if ICs could combo into grabs?"... This thought won't make it bannable in our current metagame, only in our imaginations.


The simple "matter of the fact" here is: DDD won't be dying in 2 or 3 hits regularly, so don't bring it up anymore. Stop speculating about impossibilities that will never happen in the game.


Hmm... I'd feel like you're directing this at me, but my mains are characters that don't get chaingrabbed by DDD, and even Falco has trouble chaingrabbing them (Kirby and ZSS), so I'm just here in this discussion trying to point out the same thing you said in your second paragraph.

That first half was to you, but the second was to every one. And I think we are on the same page here. It's not the traits that matter, it is the legality of the move. The reason people would ban it for D3 and not Ganon is because it is more regularly showing up in tournaments because DDD is more popular. That annoys people and it is therefore banned. Why would Ganon have the right if the King can't? because he is worse? That is no excuse.

There is no reason to ban Ganons, so there is no reason to ban D3's. Although there is none for Ganon and that is why the issue is taking place.

What I don't understand is... Why are we debating this?
We have no right to tell the TO's what to do, and I highly doubt that the Backroom will change their decision. The original piece of this post was to tell TO's to stop banning the infinite, we can't do that, so shouldn't we drop it there?

 

[Kewkky]

What I don't understand is... Why are we debating this?
We have no right to tell the TO's what to do, and I highly doubt that the Backroom will change their decision. The original piece of this post was to tell TO's to stop banning the infinite, we can't do that, so shouldn't we drop it there?

I guess. I'm not banning it in MY tourneys either.

 

[FatJackieChan]

If I host I tourney I wouldn't. The only thing I might change is the stages. But I probably wouldn't even then!

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

If I host I tourney I wouldn't. The only thing I might change is the stages. But I probably wouldn't even then!

Things to consider:

Are you refering that the Imaginary Ganon Infinite is as simple and easy to use a D3's?

 

[Ripple]

why not just say "All infinites" rather than D3's. D3's alone won't get banned but when you bring up all the infinites in the game you'll see a good chance of some infinite or 0-death guaranteed happening

 

[Kewkky]

Things to consider:

Are you refering that the Imaginary Ganon Infinite is as simple and easy to use a D3's?

It might be as easy to do as DDD's, but Ganon's grab range is still his normal grab range... Giving him a horrible tool to start it up with. Which is what people argue when talking about IC's infinites, that they shouldn't be banned because their grab range is just horrid.

why not just say "All infinites" rather than D3's. D3's alone won't get banned but when you bring up all the infinites in the game you'll see a good chance of some infinite or 0-death guaranteed happening

D3's is the only one talked about in this thread because he's got the best tools for grabbing, like his very good range and big shield. Other infinites, like IC's (like I said), have worse tools, like them having the infinite ONLY if Nana is around, and them having a very small grab range.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Let's ban Melee Sheik's chaingrab then!

inb4 "but Brawl is special!!!!1111"

Exactly who and how many did hers affect?

I know of a few but I don't know the exact number.

 

[cutter]

Exactly who and how many did hers affect?

I know of a few but I don't know the exact number.

Bowser
G&W
Pichu
Pikachu
Link
Yoshi
Ness
Roy
Ganondorf
Sheik (on herself, ironically DDD does the same thing in Brawl by infiniting himself off the ledge lol)

Not surprisingly, all of these characters except for Ganondorf and the Sheik ditto have hopeless matchups against Sheik.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

It might be as easy to do as DDD's, but Ganon's grab range is still his normal grab range... Giving him a horrible tool to start it up with. Which is what people argue when talking about IC's infinites, that they shouldn't be banned because their grab range is just horrid.


D3's is the only one talked about in this thread because he's got the best tools for grabbing, like his very good range and big shield. Other infinites, like IC's (like I said), have worse tools, like them having the infinite ONLY if Nana is around, and them having a very small grab range.

That's my point. Ganon doesn't have good grab range, so his imaginary infinite would be fair to keep since there's risk at state. (If he HAD an infinite lol)

 

[Kewkky]

So, Sheik has a hopeless matchup... Against heself?

How random is THAT.

 

[Zankoku]

That's my point. Ganon doesn't have good grab range, so his imaginary infinite would be fair to keep since there's risk at state. (If he HAD an infinite lol)

We talkin' about fair? I say it's unfair that Ganondorf has absolutely no favorable matchups. I propose we add the rule that every character starts with a 90% handicap against Ganondorf, to make it more fair.

 

[Red Arremer]

So, Sheik has a hopeless matchup... Against heself?

How random is THAT.

[ ] I can read.

Not surprisingly, all of these characters except for Ganondorf and the Sheik ditto have hopeless matchups against Sheik.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Will all of you who are "what if"ing this to death just shut up?

Ganon DOESN'T have an infinite, so your argument holds no water. So how about we debate using what's ACTUALLY IN THE GAME.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

We talkin' about fair? I say it's unfair that Ganondorf has absolutely no favorable matchups. I propose we add the rule that every character starts with a 90% handicap against Ganondorf, to make it more fair.

I can't stop laughing at this.


Edit: Ganon STILL wouldn't do better than mid-tier.

 

[Kewkky]

[ ] I can read.

Hohoho, I suck. I mindgamed myself into reading what i wanted to see.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Will all of you who are "what if"ing this to death just shut up?

Ganon DOESN'T have an infinite, so your argument holds no water. So how about we debate using what's ACTUALLY IN THE GAME.

Let's compare the situation to Meta Knight now, which has already been done a million times.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Metaknight is not an infinite LOL

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Metaknight is not an infinite LOL

We're talking about how the D3 infinite should be BANNED, right? We've discussed banning Meta Knight. Based on how something has to overcentralize the metagame and put it in danger for it to be bannable
(-_-) , we apply it here.

Anti-ban says the D3 infinite doesn't do that, so no banning.

Pro-ban says to ban it as it adds character viability (by +1).

Pro-ban also says that there is only benefit to banning the infinite, so why not?

Anti-ban says that it's better to follow how the metagame works (take advantage of counterpicking).

That's pretty much a summary of this thread, other than maybe 10 pages due to scrubs.

Edit: Someone failed to read this property already...

 

[Zankoku]

We're talking about how the D3 infinite should be BANNED, right? We've discussed banning Meta Knight. Based on how something has to overcentralize the metagame and put it in danger for it to be bannable
(-_-) , we apply it here.

Anti-ban says the D3 infinite doesn't do that, so no banning.

Pro-ban says to ban it as it adds character viability (by +1).

Pro-ban also says that there is only benefit to banning the infinite, so why not?

Anti-ban says that it's better to follow how the metagame works (take advantage of counterpicking).

That's pretty much a summary of this thread, other than maybe 3 pages due to scrubs.

The only proper argument here is the first one:
Dedede's standing infinite does not threaten the competitive tournament environment as a whole, so it should not be universally banned.

Anything past that is self-righteous assertions on how the game should be played, etc. The thing is, the objective of determining rules for this and any game are to modify how it actually plays as little as possible while still maintaining a competitively viable format. The only exceptions to this are rules that are placed to simplify the TO's job of keeping everything in order, and possibly the rule of turning items off, though items themselves can widely affect the metagame, so setting them to Off and None could be argued as a move to shift said metagame away from the perceived outcome of allowing items.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I really think the whole idea of the ban is to encourage people to play the game and to increase tournament turnout. It's basically trading being "cheap" for increased popularity of Brawl. I would prefer increased turnout, but I'm ok with people wanting to be "cheap".

Also, for infinites, take BBrawl for an example. Some characters like Link, would rather trade jab-locking than being CG'd to Falco's Dair spike.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

I really think the whole idea of the ban is to encourage people to play the game and to increase tournament turnout. It's basically trading being "cheap" for increased popularity of Brawl. I would prefer increased turnout, but I'm ok with people wanting to be "cheap".

Also, for infinites, take BBrawl for an example. Some characters like Link, would rather trade jab-locking than being CG'd to Falco's Dair spike.

Rejected.

I'm not against what you say, but others here aren't convinced on banning the infinite just so there's more DK players.

Edit: We have the same post count, how convenient.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Bowser
G&W
Pichu
Pikachu
Link
Yoshi
Ness
Roy
Ganondorf
Sheik (on herself, ironically DDD does the same thing in Brawl by infiniting himself off the ledge lol)

Not surprisingly, all of these characters except for Ganondorf and the Sheik ditto have hopeless matchups against Sheik.

10 out of 26. If it affected 16 or more I'd advocate a ban.

Pushing it, but not banworthy. My poor Link and Roy .

Melee Shiek dittos and Brawl DeDeDe dittos are dumb, lol.

 

[DMG]

DK's match up spread isn't that good? you obviously don't know much about DK.

DK has an advantage or goes even with every single character in the game except MK, DDD, and ICs. you don't consider that a good match up spread? WOW!

if you remember DK was 10th on the tier list for a reason. He dominated everyone with his ability to kill at 90%. and DDD's infinite didn't affect that tier list (iirc). Now he has moved down to 18th because the SBR knows how unviable DK is now with a 100-0 match up

I'm responding to this since I was the one who posted the original post that he replied to (on another person's account that I thought I signed out of and logged into mine, but whatever lol).

DK's matchup spread is NOT that good. Honestly, if Donkey Kong had even or better matchups against everyone but those characters listed, then he would flat out be higher regardless of the infinite. Wario can get infinited by almost 1/3 of the cast, but it doesn't matter since his matchup spread is so good.

Also the Standing Infinite CG was known about even on the earlier tier lists, and it did effect where DK was placed. He was quite overrated however, and dropped accordingly.

My point is that DK would not magically become THAT much more viable with a terrible matchup turning into at least a slight or worse disadvantage. EVEN IF he was to become more viable with the CG gone, our goal is not to ban things for a few characters to make them more viable unless A LOT of characters were SEVERELY affected by this.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

We're talking about how the D3 infinite should be BANNED, right? We've discussed banning Meta Knight. Based on how something has to overcentralize the metagame and put it in danger for it to be bannable
(-_-) , we apply it here.

No, we're not saying D3's infinite causes overcentralization. NO ONE is using that argument, MK and D3's infinite are two completely different entities, so treat them as such and stop making comparisons that do not exist.

I could say banning D3's infinite is the same as banning 75m and we all know that's bull****.

 

[RDK]

10 out of 26. If it affected 16 or more I'd advocate a ban.

Pushing it, but not banworthy. My poor Link and Roy .

Melee Shiek dittos and Brawl DeDeDe dittos are dumb, lol.

Actually all it would take is 14 since that's technically overcentralizing, but at that point it just comes down to personal preference.

And in reality it's only 8 characters, since the Sheik and Ganon matchups don't count.

 

[NatP]

I know that when I go to tourneys or just fight random people, I'm almost unsure of whether to pick DK or not because of the possibility that I might fight a DDD. To this day, every DDD I've encountered knows how to infinite and that's what they generally do vs a DK and no matter how much I try to space my attacks, I always get grabbed and when that happens, it's one stock gone. My point to this is: if someone asks me if DK is a good character, I'll go yes, he is a good character, BUT he does have one matchup that is litterally unwinnable. Will that person still decide to main DK? (This is considering this person only wants to main one character). I doubt that they will want to main DK. NOW considering the infinite is banned. He asks me if DK a good character, and I say yes, but he does have one hard matchup that you'll have to learn. I think he'd use DK now. Also the reason this matters to the debate is that if more people main DK, the more will go to tourneys and DK's metagame will advance. And I can guarantee that DK WOULD rise if enough people mained him and if he wasn't so easy to counter pick.

 

[RDK]

But he is easy to counterpick.

 

[FatJackieChan]

I know that when I go to tourneys or just fight random people, I'm almost unsure of whether to pick DK or not because of the possibility that I might fight a DDD. To this day, every DDD I've encountered knows how to infinite and that's what they generally do vs a DK and no matter how much I try to space my attacks, I always get grabbed and when that happens, it's one stock gone. My point to this is: if someone asks me if DK is a good character, I'll go yes, he is a good character, BUT he does have one matchup that is litterally unwinnable. Will that person still decide to main DK? (This is considering this person only wants to main one character). I doubt that they will want to main DK. NOW considering the infinite is banned. He asks me if DK a good character, and I say yes, but he does have one hard matchup that you'll have to learn. I think he'd use DK now. Also the reason this matters to the debate is that if more people main DK, the more will go to tourneys and DK's metagame will advance. And I can guarantee that DK WOULD rise if enough people mained him and if he wasn't so easy to counter pick.

The point of the ban isn't to help advance a character's meta game. It would be that the move is unfair. If you are having issues dealing with D3 then do what you do, switch to someone else. If you play DK against the King that is your fault. If you play Ganondorf against Marth then that is your fault too. We aren't all for banning Marth.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Actually all it would take is 14 since that's technically overcentralizing, but at that point it just comes down to personal preference.

And in reality it's only 8 characters, since the Sheik and Ganon matchups don't count.

Ganon doesn't count in Melee?

Sheik I understand, it's a ditto.

 

[Kinzer]

Will all of you who are "what if"ing this to death just shut up?

Ganon DOESN'T have an infinite, so your argument holds no water. So how about we debate using what's ACTUALLY IN THE GAME.

You haven't seen Ganon air-release Wario into aniothe grab have you?

I don't blame you, as if grabbing Wario with a character who has a good grab wasn't hard enough, try doing that with Ganon's almost-non existent grab.

You should try it sometime when you get the chance, it's pretty lulzy.

 

[Zankoku]

Ganon doesn't count in Melee?

Sheik I understand, it's a ditto.

Ganon chaingrabs Sheik to death as well, though it's not as easy for him to get the grab as it is with Sheik.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Oh, I forgot he had one.

This is what I get for not playing Melee in months, or even competitively for at least a year in a half.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

You haven't seen Ganon air-release Wario into aniothe grab have you?

I don't blame you, as if grabbing Wario with a character who has a good grab wasn't hard enough, try doing that with Ganon's almost-non existent grab.

You should try it sometime when you get the chance, it's pretty lulzy.

No, they were saying if Ganon had the same infinite D3 had.

 

[SuSa]

You haven't seen Ganon air-release Wario into aniothe grab have you?

I don't blame you, as if grabbing Wario with a character who has a good grab wasn't hard enough, try doing that with Ganon's almost-non existent grab.

You should try it sometime when you get the chance, it's pretty lulzy.

I could have sworn Ganon had to take a step to do so.

 

[Kinzer]

I could have sworn Ganon had to take a step to do so.

...That's true, since Ganon's grab range is so short and Wario breaks away far enough...

Still, what's so badass about this "infinite" is that when it ends (assuming it's done correctly), it's going to have to end in an ELECTRICAL THUNDERSTORM!

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

You haven't seen Ganon air-release Wario into aniothe grab have you?

I don't blame you, as if grabbing Wario with a character who has a good grab wasn't hard enough, try doing that with Ganon's almost-non existent grab.

You should try it sometime when you get the chance, it's pretty lulzy.

You have a point there.

Even though it's very hard to grab a good Wario, it's very rewarding if you do manage to do it and you should be pretty proud of yourself.

I didn't really know that Ganon had it in him to do sneaky stuff to Wario as well. I had my mind set to Flaco being able to kill Wario at 120-130% with a grab air-release to buffered f-smash. Funny stuff.

 

[SuSa]

...That's true, since Ganon's grab range is so short and Wario breaks away far enough...

Still, what's so badass about this "infinite" is that when it ends (assuming it's done correctly), it's going to have to end in an ELECTRICAL THUNDERSTORM!

I've actually done it before. I know what it ends in. :3

I was just pointing out that it isn't an infinite.

 

[FatJackieChan]

What does Ganon's throw on Wario have to do with banning D3's infinite?

 

[SuSa]

They were using an imaginative infinite that Ganon gained.

Meaning, it had nothing to do with it.

 

[FatJackieChan]

Can we stop using hypotheticals? The fact of the matter is is that D3 is the only one with an infinite like that. But it doesn't mean that we should ban it. We have never banned anything character specific before so why should we start?