DDD's standing infinite should not be banned.

[Matador]

People complain about DK not being viable in tournament because of the Infinite, but honestly what would change if the matchup became 15-20 points easier for DK? His matchups would be the same EXCEPT the Dedede one where it would go from "lol" to 70:30 or 65:35. Is that small of a change REALLY going to propel DK from a non viable character into a viable one?

This is one of the points I usually bring up. The only character that the ban would even partially help would be Luigi, and that's only because it requires much more precision to running CG Luigi than it is to simply infinite him. The rest still get ***** by the CG just as badly as the infinite, so the difference is really not that realistic...

...not when you consider what banning D3's infinite actually does to those matchups.

 

[DMG]

Hmmmm... about that...

Seriously though, DMG. I remember you saying standing infinites should be banned because it stalls the game. Can't the ICs do the same thing? They can grab release chaingrab.

I was referring to Standing Grab release Infinites, particularly Aerial ones that are forced by the grabber. Those have MANY issues to deal with, from empty grabs to overall stalling/time depletion, etc. Dedede cannot "empty grab" or basically grab the opponent with no intention of damaging them and then regrabbing them afterwards. Dedede's CG is also a lot faster, does more damage (and does it faster), and he can't stall with it NEARLY to the degree that people can with standing aerial release infinites.

As for IC's, they usually cannot force characters to break out a certain way or even take advantage of the fact that they can indeed force a character to break from a grab a certain way. They also can't purposefully throw in empty grabs to stall while guaranteeing that the opponent will not be able to avoid the regrab.

 

[professor mgw]

Chaingrabs, gaygrabs, emptygrabs, reasons like this is why people quit smash.

 

[Luigi player]

People complain about DK not being viable in tournament because of the Infinite, but honestly what would change if the matchup became 15-20 points easier for DK? His matchups would be the same EXCEPT the Dedede one where it would go from "lol" to 70:30 or 65:35. Is that small of a change REALLY going to propel DK from a non viable character into a viable one?

Infinites don't always make a character unviable. What's more important in the big picture is their overall matchup spread. Now obviously having an infinite against you is gonna hurt a bit (unless you're cool like Wario and beat most of the characters who can infinite you anyways), but if the character is already not that hot against the rest of the cast, then it doesn't really matter if you take away an infinite on them or make 1 single matchup slightly easier. They are still going to struggle against the rest of the cast, hence they were probably unviable from the start.

People are thinking too much about matchups...

Everyone has a chance to win and everything should be winable and at worst 65:35 disadvantage if the character really outplays you or your recovery sucks so much or you're Ganondorf.

Only infinites make something basically unwinable. Characters don't suck that much or are THAT much worse. Every character can do something, because they have more chances and won't be dead with one hit...


In DKs chase it's really only Dedede who stops him majorly. His matchups against other characters are at worst 40:60 for them (ICs, Falco, MK?) and those are maybe even 45:55 and some even say it's even (Olimar...).

DKs matchup against Dedede is not that bad if DK plays really safe. He even has a very very small chance with the infinite if you're lucky at guessing right or something and manage to run out the clock. The problem is 1 mistake means death. DK would probably be about 40:60 against Dedede, but it's really not that easy for the Dedede to beat him without the infinite. DK has nearly as much grab range as Dedede, but Dededes spotdodge is better and his grab is way more rewarding than DKs, but DK is really good at edgeguarding Dedede and side B mixups can hit Dedede pretty badly if he's too grab happy. He also won't live that long, which is a big advantage Dedede normally has, if he gets hit by sideB, fsmash or dsmash. DK will live longer and depending on the stage maybe even way longer, unless he gets hit by a fsmash or something (it's really not easy for Dedede to KO someone if they're really careful and watch out for the utilt).

The thing is good DKs will be able to beat Dededes. It's even possible if the Dedede is as good, but it won't be easy, just like every match unless you're that much better than your opponent. It will help him because now everyone and I mean EVERYONE can just CP Dedede and beat him no matter who the player is. This makes it really impossible to choose DK.

 

[DMG]

It doesn't make it impossible to choose DK. It just makes it really hard to win during matches where your opponent has the opportunity to CP you, or you guess wrong in the first match Double Blind and Picked DK while he went Dedede.

Wario-DK is 65:35 Wario's favor. Wario can Dthrow CG him for a ton of damage, he has guaranteed combos on DK that are flat out ********, basically he's like a mobile version of Dedede that isn't quite as bad for DK.

Dedede-DK would not merely be 60:40 if the infinite was gone, I can ASSURE you that. It also doesn't matter if "everyone" can pick Dedede and win by pressing grab over and over. Like you said earlier, Good DK's can beat Dedede's. I'm sure they can beat a lot of people who just pick Dedede without really knowing how to play as him.

EVEN if they CAN'T beat those players, our goal is not to ban an infinite just to "make things easier" for people. Our goal is to remove infinites from gameplay if they impact a large portion of gameplay severely enough to DEEPLY... DEEPLY Hurt the Metagame. Does Dedede's infinite accomplish that? No.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Hmmmm... about that...

Seriously though, DMG. I remember you saying standing infinites should be banned because it stalls the game. Can't the ICs do the same thing? They can grab release chaingrab.

I believe it had to due with Ike and Ganon's infinite on Wario involving the pummels.

 

[DMG]

Correct, Ike and Ganon among other characters also. Those are much different than the Dedede infinite and things like IC infinites or even walking infinites, and I outlined why I felt those particular ones should not be allowed.

 

[Nanaki]

Seriously, just let this thread die already. There are no new arguments here. When you can prove the infinite breaks the game in any real way, and you don't just want to ban it to make matchups more 'fair' and more characters 'viable', make a thread giving proof of how the game is broken because of the infinite.

Y'all are going to get forum-camped by DMG if you keep trying to argue with him. And he can do this for waaaaay more than 8 minutes - SWF > Brinstar for DMG's CP.

 

[Luigi player]

It doesn't make it impossible to choose DK. It just makes it really hard to win during matches where your opponent has the opportunity to CP you, or you guess wrong in the first match Double Blind and Picked DK while he went Dedede.

Wario-DK is 65:35 Wario's favor. Wario can Dthrow CG him for a ton of damage, he has guaranteed combos on DK that are flat out ********, basically he's like a mobile version of Dedede that isn't quite as bad for DK.

Dedede-DK would not merely be 60:40 if the infinite was gone, I can ASSURE you that. It also doesn't matter if "everyone" can pick Dedede and win by pressing grab over and over. Like you said earlier, Good DK's can beat Dedede's. I'm sure they can beat a lot of people who just pick Dedede without really knowing how to play as him.

EVEN if they CAN'T beat those players, our goal is not to ban an infinite just to "make things easier" for people. Our goal is to remove infinites from gameplay if they impact a large portion of gameplay severely enough to DEEPLY... DEEPLY Hurt the Metagame. Does Dedede's infinite accomplish that? No.

Um, it doesn't really matter that much for DK if Wario can CG him to 105 %. He will live longer than that and DK won't make it easy for Wario to kill or even grab him in the first place, what can Wario do against DKs bair? And DK can kill Wario at ~70 % if he manages to grab him. It's probably 60:40 for Wario, I just forgot about him in my last post.

Yeah, you can still use him to CP... why should it be worse than 60:40 for Dedede without the infinite? What can Dedede do so much against DK besides grabbing? And DK can avoid those with downB and sideB. If he misses with down B Dedede can't KO him and only punish him with an aerial or a side B (which will maybe do ~15 % or if he get's lucky and throws a gordo). It's not that hard to hit Dedede with down B, because which Dedede wouldn't want to grab? I can't think of much Dedede can do and if DK plays at the edge of the stage his CG would also only do ~30 % or something which really isn't that bad. By trying to get the grab he might be hit by 2 down Bs which is nearly the 30 %.
If DKs beat Dededes then they are either MUCH better, extremely lucky, or have a good CP stage (like maybe Norfair or something).

And it doesn't make things easier... it makes things possible.

Yeah let's just... don't ban it and so nobody will play DK so you won't be able to use it in the first place.
Or you ban it and people will be playing more characters and will have more fun with the game.

You gain nothing if you keep it legal. Infinites make this game suck.

 

[DMG]

He can CG further than 105%, and at the end he also gets a guaranteed Fthrow, which usually throws DK offstage unless he is at the edge being thrown across the stage the other way.

We don't ban infinites to make things possible. We ban them if they make too many things for too many characters truly impossible. If there are almost 40 characters in Brawl, and the number of characters Dedede can Standing infinite is so low that I can count it on one hand, then I think clearly his Infinite doesn't really affect THAT much of the game. Certainly not bad enough to warrant a ban.

Those things you mentioned DK can do to prevent getting grabbed, he can do those same exact things when Dedede's infinite is allowed. Staying near the edge, using Down B, even toying with edge grabs.

It's not about what you gain from letting something stay in the game. It's about how badly it DETRACTS from the game. If it is more negative than positive, but not EXTREMELY negative, then you just have to deal with it.

 

[Ripple]

Wario-DK is 65:35 Wario's favor. Wario can Dthrow CG him for a ton of damage, he has guaranteed combos on DK that are flat out ********, basically he's like a mobile version of Dedede that isn't quite as bad for DK.

.

NO! it is not that bad of a match up for DK. You have a chain grab on DK until 105% and then we still won't die for another 50-70% but everytime we grab you its a free f-smash, up-smash, SA punch. you die at 90% guaranteed

 

[Red Arremer]

The only proper argument here is the first one:
Dedede's standing infinite does not threaten the competitive tournament environment as a whole, so it should not be universally banned.

Anything past that is self-righteous assertions on how the game should be played, etc. The thing is, the objective of determining rules for this and any game are to modify how it actually plays as little as possible while still maintaining a competitively viable format. The only exceptions to this are rules that are placed to simplify the TO's job of keeping everything in order, and possibly the rule of turning items off, though items themselves can widely affect the metagame, so setting them to Off and None could be argued as a move to shift said metagame away from the perceived outcome of allowing items.

Here. This post is great, and I will quote it because of its greatness.

Also, if we're talking about more diversity and making the game more fair, why don't we ban Pikachu's CG on Fox? Why don't we ban Sheik's FTilt and Chainlocks on several characters? Why don't we ban every move string, combo or exploitable technique that makes characters partially unviable?

If there's no chaingrabs, no movelocks and no exploitations of the game, then all characters who don't have these abilities become a bit more viable (though still not a lot) on the costs of the characters who have these abilities becoming less viable. Yay?

 

[DMG]

CG goes a bit past 105% actually, then the guaranteed Fthrow at the end, then either the edgeguard or an Fsmash/Waft/kill move. Once DK is at 120% already, he should not survive a fresh kill move from Wario unless the stage has ******** boundaries. Certainly not another 50-70%.

What is better: getting grab released into a strong attack from a grab that you can possibly SDI and tech, or getting grabbed and taking 100+ damage and THEN being throw off stage?

 

[Kewkky]

As if DK will even be considered to be used as a main by a large amount of people if the ban is passed. There are better characters out there who flat-out do better than him against the cast overall. Why pick him instead of, oh I dunno... MK, Snake, Wario, Falco, Diddy, DDD...?

Each character has a weakness. Some have weaknesses that can be exploited by many characters, and others by a single character. DK's glaring weakness is his hurtbox size and his weight as we can see from DDD's infinite. DDD can only do the infinite to 2 characters at any given time. SO, you're arguing that you want DK's glaring weakness gone.

Just counterpick, geez. Consider using DK for CP'ing situations and not as a first choice in a match and you've just fixed the problem. Use a main that can do the same as DK around the cast, then use your favorite character to counter your opponent if he was too hard for you to beat (if so, it's because of your skill level, not an infinite)... And there, problem solved. What's so hard about picking a secondary for DDD if you think your opponent will use DDD?

 

[Javon89]

Either way who doesn't hate being CG'ed to death?

 

[Red Arremer]

Either way who doesn't hate being CG'ed to death?

How does that matter?

I hate when people play Marth. Let's ban Marth!

 

[Luigi player]

Also, if we're talking about more diversity and making the game more fair, why don't we ban Pikachu's CG on Fox? Why don't we ban Sheik's FTilt and Chainlocks on several characters? Why don't we ban every move string, combo or exploitable technique that makes characters partially unviable?

They're stupid, but... they don't make it impossible to win.

CG goes a bit past 105% actually, then the guaranteed Fthrow at the end, then either the edgeguard or an Fsmash/Waft/kill move. Once DK is at 120% already, he should not survive a fresh kill move from Wario unless the stage has ******** boundaries. Certainly not another 50-70%.

What is better: getting grab released into a strong attack from a grab that you can possibly SDI and tech, or getting grabbed and taking 100+ damage and THEN being throw off stage?

With upB brakeing DK can live with good DI, if he's not hit upwards (from Warios uair), to 180+ % easily. Against Wario he might not live that long though. Try hitting a good spacing DK with fsmash. Wario can't even come through DKs bair. The most viable option would be uair, it's still not easy to hit with.

Being thrown offstage is not that big of a deal. The DK can DI up and recover from above, use side B since he's so high anyway and wall you with bairs.

As if DK will even be considered to be used as a main by a large amount of people if the ban is passed. There are better characters out there who flat-out do better than him against the cast overall. Why pick him instead of, oh I dunno... MK, Snake, Wario, Falco, Diddy, DDD...?

Falco and Dedede have some good counters (ICs, Pikachu), DK wouldn't have them. That would be one advantage over them.
I can't talk for everyone, but I'd use DK more often if the infinite was banned.

 

[Red Arremer]

They're stupid, but... they don't make it impossible to win.

Pikachu's chaingrab makes the matchup vs. Fox 90:10 in Pikachu's favor.
Sheik has a 95:5 on Ganondorf due to her chainlock and FTiltlock.

 

[Luigi player]

Pikachu's chaingrab makes the matchup vs. Fox 90:10 in Pikachu's favor.
Sheik has a 95:5 on Ganondorf due to her chainlock and FTiltlock.

Haha just forget what I was saying I'm a srcub

Btw, Ganondorf loses every match anyway so who cares. And I'm sure Fox can still win vs Pikachu. We can test it on sunday if you want.

 

[DMG]

Upb Braking? Really?

Do you know how useless that is vs Wario? Seriously... Upb Braking isn't going to let DK REALLY survive any longer than usual against Wario since he'll most likely get punished for doing it and die anyways. Huge character in Freefall above Wario? Terrible lol. When I suggested Fsmash, I meant as a punishment for Upb Braking, for getting back onto the stage the wrong way, or to punish lag on his Upb if it's not safe/if the edge is not available for him to safely grab.

Also for the Side B turn around to Bair suggestion, what happens when Wario moves UNDER DK? Not just to the side, but Under? Wario moves faster than DK in the air and changes directions in the air more fluidly than him, so it's not far-fetched to think Wario can position himself pretty well against DK when he gets sent flying.



But of course, it's not like I understand how to play gay or anything...

 

[Red Arremer]

Btw, Ganondorf loses every match anyway so who cares.

Why make the game "more fair and fun" for Donkey Kong players and not Ganondorf players? What makes DK players more important than Ganondorf players?

And I'm sure Fox can still win vs Pikachu. Wen can test it on sunday if you want.

No, he can't. As soon as Pikachu gets a grab, Fox is done for.

 

[Luigi player]

Upb Braking? Really?

Do you know how useless that is vs Wario? Seriously... Upb Braking isn't going to let DK REALLY survive any longer than usual against Wario since he'll most likely get punished for doing it and die anyways. Huge character in Freefall above Wario? Terrible lol. When I suggested Fsmash, I meant as a punishment for Upb Braking, for getting back onto the stage the wrong way, or to punish lag on his Upb if it's not safe/if the edge is not available for him to safely grab.

Also for the Side B turn around to Bair suggestion, what happens when Wario moves UNDER DK? Not just to the side, but Under? Wario moves faster than DK in the air and changes directions in the air more fluidly than him, so it's not far-fetched to think Wario can position himself pretty well against DK when he gets sent flying.



But of course, it's not like I understand how to play gay or anything...

The usefulness of up braking depends on the stage... but yeah it's probably mostly useless against Wario, it could still safe him rarely though.

If Wario wants to go below DK he can move away and recover sideways with upB. He can also side B to stop his fall a bit to trick you. You may have used your second jump already and now have to bike and upB so you probably wouldn't hit him and are maybe also in a bit dangerous position. And if you really follow DK that much offstage and be below him... that's imo pretty risky too, because you could also be spiked.

 

[Kewkky]

Luigi_Player, you're severely underestimating Wario here. No matter how much you stall, Wario will still kill you with an fsmash, uair or a waft (depends on what he feels like).

 

[DMG]

It's not 100% guaranteed obviously, but DK is the one who is going to have to do a lot of work to get back to the stage safely compared to the work Wario has to do to harass him.

 

[Luigi player]

Luigi_Player, you're severely underestimating Wario here. No matter how much you stall, Wario will still kill you with an fsmash, uair or a waft (depends on what he feels like).

I know how hard it is to kill with Wario sometimes.
Fsmash is nice, but most of the time it will not hit or is weakened so the enemy will live to 140 % or so with mid weight characters. And if you miss you will get punished, especially by DK which can KO Wario at rather low % if he grabs him. And the waft is pretty good, but chances are that you won't be in the right position to hit your enemy or he just shields it. And if he's fully charged he sucks at killing (really slow and low knockback). Uair can be good, but if the enemy knows how to avoid it it's still not easy to hit with. Wario has to come really close to DK that's why it's not so easy for him to kill DK. All of his KO attacks are risky and can be shieldgrabbed, only his fart is rather safe (uair only if the enemy is above him, sometimes it's difficult to get your enemy off the ground), but it is easily shielded and Wario doesn't have much time to use it and has to wait a while before he can use it again if he misses.

 

[Kewkky]

I know how hard it is to kill with Wario sometimes.
Fsmash is nice, but most of the time it will not hit or is weakened so the enemy will live to 140 % or so with mid weight characters. And if you miss you will get punished, especially by DK which can KO Wario at rather low % if he grabs him. And the waft is pretty good, but chances are that you won't be in the right position to hit your enemy or he just shields it. And if he's fully charged he sucks at killing (really slow and low knockback). Uair can be good, but if the enemy knows how to avoid it it's still not easy to hit with. Wario has to come really close to DK that's why it's not so easy for him to kill DK. All of his KO attacks are risky and can be shieldgrabbed, only his fart is rather safe (uair only if the enemy is above him, sometimes it's difficult to get your enemy off the ground), but it is easily shielded and Wario doesn't have much time to use it and has to wait a while before he can use it again if he misses.

That's all nice and all, but...

... How will you apply this after you upB break your momentum, and are falling helplessly in freefall towards the stage?

 

[Luigi player]

That's all nice and all, but...

... How will you apply this after you upB break your momentum, and are falling helplessly in freefall towards the stage?

If you don't hit with those moves DK probably doesn't need to upB brake anyway.
And I already said that he's probably doomed on most stages if he needs to do it.

 

[Red Arremer]

Why make the game "more fair and fun" for Donkey Kong players and not Ganondorf players? What makes DK players more important than Ganondorf players?

Can you answer me this, L_P?

 

[Kewkky]

If you don't hit with those moves DK probably doesn't need to upB brake anyway.
And I already said that he's probably doomed on most stages if he needs to do it.

I meant after the dthrow chaingrab to fthrow at ~105%. How can DK avoid Wario's multiple options when he's falling in a freefall animation? And if he upB breaks, how can he stall with sideB if he's freefalling?

 

[DMG]

1. Dthrow CG Unstales Wario's other moves. This makes it nearly impossible for Wario to do the CG and then hit with a stale Kill move.

2. At the end of the CG, Wario can Fthrow, which throws DK into the air and usually off stage. This solves the issue of Uair killing/getting DK above Wario.

3. With Full Waft, it's actually quite possible (and quite gay) to use it to rise and hit DK when he is in lag from using Side B to turn himself around after being tossed into the air.

4. Upb braking after the Fthrow would be dumb obviously. However, past that point if you were to use it, on most stages DK is just going to get punished for doing it and die anyways (Fsmash/Uair/Fart/etc).

 

[Nanaki]

Why make the game "more fair and fun" for Donkey Kong players and not Ganondorf players? What makes DK players more important than Ganondorf players?



No, he can't. As soon as Pikachu gets a grab, Fox is done for.

I get the feeling that someone I know has made that argument before in this very thread...

Who cares if he's not DK? Why should DK get to be viable? Why should we ban 1 technique for him when we could ban lots of stuff to make Ganon viable? I'm going to keep making the comparison until someone tells me why this should be so.

If artificially making characters viable for 'diversity' improves the metagame, why not make them all viable?

Oh yeah. There it is.

 

[Red Arremer]

I get the feeling that someone I know has made that argument before in this very thread...

Haven't followed this thread. lol

 

[Luigi player]

Can you answer me this, L_P?

I meant after the dthrow chaingrab to fthrow at ~105%. How can DK avoid Wario's multiple options when he's falling in a freefall animation? And if he upB breaks, how can he stall with sideB if he's freefalling?

Lol, DK will never use upB brake after Warios fthrow unless he's at ~230 %, it doesn't have so much knockback. At 120 % DKs x coordinate would still be at the edge of the stage if Wario threw him with fthrow from the middle of battlefield.

1. Dthrow CG Unstales Wario's other moves. This makes it nearly impossible for Wario to do the CG and then hit with a stale Kill move.

2. At the end of the CG, Wario can Fthrow, which throws DK into the air and usually off stage. This solves the issue of Uair killing/getting DK above Wario.

3. With Full Waft, it's actually quite possible (and quite gay) to use it to rise and hit DK when he is in lag from using Side B to turn himself around after being tossed into the air.

4. Upb braking after the Fthrow would be dumb obviously. However, past that point if you were to use it, on most stages DK is just going to get punished for doing it and die anyways (Fsmash/Uair/Fart/etc).

Yeah, but uair won't kill him that early. Of course it's possible that you can hit him while he's coming down, but there's more of a chance that he will make it back. Wario doesn't has it that easy to follow DK if he is facing away from him and use retreating bairs if Wario comes near. It's not as easy as you all make it out to be. o.o

I'm not even sure this is a true chaingrab... is there any proof? I can't pull it off. It must be harder than ICs CGs, but I read that you don't even need to buffer for DK so it should be easier than to CG others. Maybe the CPU just knows what to do to get out, lol.

Yeah sure, maybe you will hit, but maybe not. DK can use dair to hit you back down, or move away and uair or bair, there are many possibilities at theoriecrafting.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

The moderators have failed to close this thread.

You can't compare the D3 infinite to MK. There are actual consequences in banning MK.

"If we ban the infinite, we minus well ban MK since that help a LOT of characters"

No, because there's a price in banning MK that has to be paid. Not in the D3 infinite.

 

[Kewkky]

Yes, it's an inescapable chaingrab. It's similar to how Peach's chaingrab worked in Melee... Just dthrow then grab behind you (unless I'm mistaken).

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

As if DK will even be considered to be used as a main by a large amount of people if the ban is passed. There are better characters out there who flat-out do better than him against the cast overall. Why pick him instead of, oh I dunno... MK, Snake, Wario, Falco, Diddy, DDD...?

Pick a better argument.

Character choice isn't a good way to go about this.

 

[Red Arremer]

There's the price of Dedede's Standing Infinite being gone.

Please, everyone who advocates banning Dedede's Infinite in order to make Donkey Kong (and it pretty much only is Donkey Kong) more viable, why should Donkey Kong players be the only ones that should get their characters be more viable?
Why don't we ban other tactics in order to make other characters more viable?

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

There's the price of Dedede's Standing Infinite being gone.

Please, everyone who advocates banning Dedede's Infinite in order to make Donkey Kong (and it pretty much only is Donkey Kong) more viable, why should Donkey Kong players be the only ones that should get their characters be more viable?
Why don't we ban other tactics in order to make other characters more viable?

Y'know what I meant (maybe not).

 

[Kewkky]

Pick a better argument.

Character choice isn't a good way to go about this.

How is it not a good way to go about this? In SO many other games, characters with disadvantages would have to live with their disadvantages... What makes brawl any different? Just pick up a character that you can use to counter DDD and you'll have no infinite problems as far as counterpicking and blindpicking are concerned... Why should you guys make a huge scene over a matchup you refuse to simply counterpick? I don't see any other community making a big deal over picking a secondary.

There's the price of Dedede's Standing Infinite being gone.

Please, everyone who advocates banning Dedede's Infinite in order to make Donkey Kong (and it pretty much only is Donkey Kong) more viable, why should Donkey Kong players be the only ones that should get their characters be more viable?
Why don't we ban other tactics in order to make other characters more viable?

Especially considering the size of the DK community... I doubt it's bigger than the other unviable characters' communities put together.

 

[BSP]

it seems both sides have good arguements that haven't been answered

"What is the good of keeping the infinite?" and "Why should DK and Luigi get help and not everyone else?"

I'm still nuetral on this. But anti is more appealing to me right now...