DDD Social: we livin' in smash 4

[Doc King]

Um, dashing is actually quite a vital part of dash grabbing. As in, you need to move forward. Unless something's completely passed me by we can't actually dash grab when we're standing at the ledge air releasing Wario so no infinite.

Couldn't you like move back and then dash grab?

Florida Bad. D:

Doc King, it's not an infinite since Dedede moves forward and none of this is new.



Edit: lawl dean

I'm surprised this isn't new cause no one does these things. Only interesting thing I've seen is 4God doing a fair out of Wario's air release.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

That's because dthrow to edge of stage > fair is Dedede's best option when he grabs Wario.

 

[Doc King]

I don't think that changes the Wario MU, you can deal much more damage by simply Dash chainbrabbing. It might be useful for refreshing stuff, tho.

For Squirtle, idk, he's hard to grab and mere pummel damage is not a big deal...

Isn't it better to skid cancel grab rather than Dash Grab?

I would actually agree with this. Although sending Squirtle will be a lot easier on FD.

I'm basically listing the bright sides of these techniques like I do with my other discoveries. It's good to try to adapt to AT's as much as possible along with other things like strategies.

That's because dthrow to edge of stage > fair is Dedede's best option when he grabs Wario.

It actually is, maybe down and up air might be better because they give more damage, although only problem is they can be DIed easily.

I actually found one little useful thing where you can dash grab Wario with an air release so you can finish Wario to the very edge.

 

[dean.]

Couldn't you like move back and then dash grab?

Doubt it, dash grab by itself wouldn't reach so we need to move forward.

Grab release on Squirtle is good for stage positioning but it won't do much if any damage until like 100% especially with fast mashers like Reflex.

Fair is our best option to grab release Wario until utilt kill percent, I've been doing it for like a year now.

 

[Doc King]

Doubt it, dash grab by itself wouldn't reach so we need to move forward.

Grab release on Squirtle is good for stage positioning but it won't do much if any damage until like 100% especially with fast mashers like Reflex.

Fair is our best option to grab release Wario until utilt kill percent, I've been doing it for like a year now.

Well, even if you could, it would be pretty situational and risky.

It is true that 's air release chaingrab on won't do much damage. It's also true that 's air release chaingrab on is good for stage positioning. It's mainly gonna be used as a way to send off of the stage for edge guarding.

Wouldn't bair string be better in like the very low percents?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Dean is it possible to utilt Wario?

I couldn't do it.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

You can Up-Tilt Wario like that. Pretty sure I've seen 4God do it. I've done it as well.

I also knew about Fair. I don't use Up-Smash unless it's time for the kill.

And to be honest, I just grow tired of reading all this situational, gimmicky, stuff. If you put that much time into being a better player as you do this stuff, you'd probably be a damn good DDD. Focus on playing the character to his fullest and just being better. The other stuff is cute but nothing to drool over.

 

[da K.I.D.]

You can Up-Tilt Wario like that. Pretty sure I've seen 4God do it. I've done it as well.

I also knew about Fair. I don't use Up-Smash unless it's time for the kill.

And to be honest, I just grow tired of reading all this situational, gimmicky, stuff. If you put that much time into being a better player as you do this stuff, you'd probably be a damn good DDD. Focus on playing the character to his fullest and just being better. The other stuff is cute but nothing to drool over.

I am furious with you right now.

name search yourself to find out why. Tech Chase.

youre like 6 months late dude.

 

[Doc King]

That's sort of like saying tiers don't matter because the better player will always win. Although, I can see what you mean by there's more to the game than AT's which I understand. Learning to mindgame is a good thing too. I mean I think that both are pretty important and you shouldn't ignore AT's and should try to adapt them along with other stuff like what works best in this situation, what are my punishes, what are my good moves, what are my strong and weak points, etc.

I think we should improve our approaching game and certain strategies like air releasing Snake to a full hop up air can trap Snake well so he can't escape in the air. I also find d tilt a really good safe option because it's so fast.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I am furious with you right now.

name search yourself to find out why. Tech Chase.

youre like 6 months late dude.

LOL don't even start..... I KNEW you were gonna say something.

I got this though. I have learned a few things lately.

Also name searching myself is next to impossible....lmao.

 

[dean.]

@Aero utilt works, you have to either walk forward a bit or turn around though iirc.

+1 for what TC said about the gimmicks as well.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Up tilt is probably the hardest of all the follow ups then.

I found that Wario releases far enough away that walking forward doesn't get enough distance even in 14 frames.

I'll give it another try.

 

[dean.]

Then maybe I'm wrong, I won't question the almighty knowledge of Aero's frame-testing power.

 

[allshort17]

Dean is it possible to utilt Wario?

I couldn't do it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1V2HdYFK9PA

Go to 1:00. It looks like you have to delay it a little in order to make sure it doesn't whiff. If it doesn't work frame wise, it still looks like a good mix-up to use because I don't believe anyone will expect that.

 

[4GOD (JJV)]

D3 will soon be winning tournaments again! Glory to God! :D

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=14135983#post14135983

My set vs ESAM was 1-3. He beat me with Pika the first two games. Then I beat his ICs game 3. Then he beat me game 4 with Pika.

My set vs Reflex was 3-1. I beat his Wario the first two games, then I went 1-1 against his PT the last two games of the set.

My set vs Kismet was 2-1. He used Falco.

My 1st set vs McPee was 0-2. He used Wolf then Kirby.
My 2nd set vs McPee was 2-0. He used Wolf then G&W.

My set vs BigLou was 2-1. He used Diddy.

My set vs Billy was 2-0. He used Olimar.

 

[da K.I.D.]

LOL don't even start..... I KNEW you were gonna say something.

I got this though. I have learned a few things lately.

Also name searching myself is next to impossible....lmao.

Ill make it easy for you.

search tech chase, posts by me, in brawl GD.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Yes yes, I know. I'm focusing on the important things now. When I get more videos out, they will reflect that. I feel....relieved. I know what I need to do now. Doing a lot of video researching now a days as well. Trying to look at things a little differently.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

thx Allshorts, I retested and it does indeed work, though there's an unusual timing for it.

I didn't think utilts hitbox extended so far out. o.o

 

[AtotheZ]

I main Dedede in Kirby's Return to Dreamland now

 

[C.J.]

My set vs ESAM was 1-3. He beat me with Pika the first two games. Then I beat his ICs game 3. Then he beat me game 4 with Pika.

My set vs Reflex was 3-1. I beat his Wario the first two games, then I went 1-1 against his PT the last two games of the set.

Wow, glad to hear you got past your IC hiccup. Come back to FL and win now!

Great job vs Reflex as well.

 

[Exdeath]

My set vs ESAM was 1-3. He beat me with Pika the first two games. Then he beat me game 4 with Pika.

This was pretty much all I got out of that.

 

[Doc King]

D3 will soon be winning tournaments again! Glory to God! :D

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=14135983#post14135983

My set vs ESAM was 1-3. He beat me with Pika the first two games. Then I beat his ICs game 3. Then he beat me game 4 with Pika.

My set vs Reflex was 3-1. I beat his Wario the first two games, then I went 1-1 against his PT the last two games of the set.

My set vs Kismet was 2-1. He used Falco.

My 1st set vs McPee was 0-2. He used Wolf then Kirby.
My 2nd set vs McPee was 2-0. He used Wolf then G&W.

My set vs BigLou was 2-1. He used Diddy.

My set vs Billy was 2-0. He used Olimar.

Nice. Are there any videos of the tourney?

thx Allshorts, I retested and it does indeed work, though there's an unusual timing for it.

I didn't think utilts hitbox extended so far out. o.o

Well, that's cool.

 

[shaSLAM]

4god da bess

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I'm so incredibly stoked to play in tournament with D3 again.

Yes, I used the word stoked.

It's that serious.



I just feel like these last few weeks have been really beneficial to me. I learned to play "D3"....not just "Tech_Chase" ....if that makes ANY sense. As simple as that concept is...it means everything.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I think I know what are you talking about, tech
Like, maybe your personal style is not enough to play a character well... and you need to improve change the way you play.

That's why I'm not a good Marth

 

[shaSLAM]

yeah it makes perfect sense, tech.

but it sucks cuz
4god da bess

 

[AtotheZ]

Tech plays Dedede?

 

[bubbaking]

That's because dthrow to edge of stage > fair is Dedede's best option when he grabs Wario.

Doesn't usmash wrack up more damage, though? If you want an unstaled killing move, you could always use utilt...

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Up Smash

Fresh Damage - 14.7%, 9.45% (The 9% hit is the handle of the hammer, very unlikely to hit)

Fair

Fresh Damage - 15.75%

Plus fair is a horizontal killing move. If you're at the edge of the stage, fair is your best option.

If you're trying to wrack up damage, fair is still your best option.

If fair is stale, up smash if your looking for damage, up tilt if you want to kill.

 

[infiniteV115]

If you want damage, wouldn't bthrow be the best option once you reach the edge of the stage?

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Pure damage wise yes. But you're also resetting the situation and putting Wario back on the stage just for a few more percent. It's a trade-off in terms of "best option" I like Back air at lower percents since you can often chain them. I do like Fair at times because it sends them off the stage. But at the same time Fair is actually good in the Wario MU all around. The way I use it, it probably won't be doing 15-16 when I grab release Wario lol

It's like Bair, Up Smash, Fair, U-Tilt and Back Throw all have their uses and niches from grab release. Just depends on what you're aiming for.

 

[White91]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AI2...xt=C3462a73UDOEgsToPDskLT_u893q1DS-PxM4KD9y3w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGROjvYlYzE


i need someone to critique these, lookin at you zekey or perhaps 4god.
it would be quite the help

 

[4GOD (JJV)]

Good stuff. If you're in high in the air trying to get back on stage, or if you're off-stage trying to get back on the ledge and want to avoid being edge-guarded, try fast-fall air-dodging. When Marth was at kill % I felt like you were fishing for the utilt kill. While this guessing game may get you the kill, usually the opponent will adapt and start shielding more. In the second game it worked, but in the first game you were punished for it. Unless you're significantly ahead of him I would apply a safer/reactionary position. Get near him like you did, sit in shield, and watch what he does. If he shields cuz he's scared than chaingrab, if he does something unsafe THEN go for the kill. I liked how you bair'd so many of his aerials haha, I laughed. Also, when Marth is on the ledge he's VERY limited. Apply a safe distance from the ledge and ftilt or grab depending on what he does. This is better than going for the unsafe running up-smash . Edgeguarding Marth is great. Dont be afraid to chase him when he's off-stage. As long as you're slightly under him off stage, then you can bair him forever. You dont want to be above him offstage. Some obvious things: practice chaingrabbing Marth (Yoshi's Island is a good stage), and practice power-shielding. In general, be more aware of the big picture and play safer. Good stuff!

Zekey knows the Marth matchup a lot! So maybe he can help you out more!

 

[KuroganeHammer]

It's like Bair, Up Smash, Fair, U-Tilt and Back Throw all have their uses and niches from grab release. Just depends on what you're aiming for.

I think this is one of the best ways you can put it.

 

[Doc King]

To add on what 4God said, Marth's rco lag actually helps even more with edge guarding because Dedede can poke in f tilt to basically trap marth and put him in a really bad situation. If Marth rolls or does a get up attack, you can do things like d throw to dash attack or up smash for early kills. You can also do a forward roll to an up tilt on Marth. If he goes up, our air attacks will pressure him pretty well. It's a very pressuring matchup where your goal basically is to punish Marth's recovery methods and put him into really bad situations. There's also spacing involved so Marth can't poke fairs on you.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Or you could run > powershield all of Marth's predictable aerials and punish.

 

[bubbaking]

If you want damage, wouldn't bthrow be the best option once you reach the edge of the stage?

Imo, you wanna keep bthrow fresh, since it can actually send opponents pretty far offstage. It can even kill at times. I also use bthrow after infiniting off a wall if I didn't have enough time to bring them up to utilt range. Anyway, that's just how I like to use bthrow. Besides, we were talking about grab releasing Wario, so your question is kinda out of context. You're right in that bthrow does more damage than fsmash and fair, though.

Hey, why don't we have an actual video critique thread on these boards? Not only that, but why can't I find any (recent) vids of professionals on these boards? We need a place where vids (professional and non-professional alike) can be compiled and stored for others to see.

To add on what 4God said, Marth's rco lag actually helps even more with edge guarding because Dedede can poke in f tilt to basically trap marth and put him in a really bad situation. If Marth rolls or does a get up attack, you can do things like d throw to dash attack or up smash for early kills. You can also do a forward roll to an up tilt on Marth. If he goes up, our air attacks will pressure him pretty well. It's a very pressuring matchup where your goal basically is to punish Marth's recovery methods and put him into really bad situations. There's also spacing involved so Marth can't poke fairs on you.

Well, dthrow>dash attack isn't a true combo, but it's a pretty nice mixup, especially if you've just been doing CG's all day. I really don't think dthrow>usmash works, though. If Marth rolls or gets straight on, I actually like to dsmash. In a sense, it's like a Buuman Trap. It might also catch jumps from the ledge, too, as well as ledgehops. Also, in general, rolling is kind of like an alarm to opponents that King D3 might just be about to utilt, so it's kinda hard to get 'em with that trick.

Hey, 4God, what's your opinion on uthrow? Should I ever use it to get a Marth above me, since they can have trouble coming down?

 

[dean.]

We do have a video critique/general video thread, it just sort of never really lifted off. A sticky would probably help in this regard though. You're welcome to bump it.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=313593

 

[4GOD (JJV)]

Imo, you wanna keep bthrow fresh, since it can actually send opponents pretty far offstage. It can even kill at times. I also use bthrow after infiniting off a wall if I didn't have enough time to bring them up to utilt range. Anyway, that's just how I like to use bthrow. Besides, we were talking about grab releasing Wario, so your question is kinda out of context. You're right in that bthrow does more damage than fsmash and fair, though.

Hey, why don't we have an actual video critique thread on these boards? Not only that, but why can't I find any (recent) vids of professionals on these boards? We need a place where vids (professional and non-professional alike) can be compiled and stored for others to see.



Well, dthrow>dash attack isn't a true combo, but it's a pretty nice mixup, especially if you've just been doing CG's all day. I really don't think dthrow>usmash works, though. If Marth rolls or gets straight on, I actually like to dsmash. In a sense, it's like a Buuman Trap. It might also catch jumps from the ledge, too, as well as ledgehops. Also, in general, rolling is kind of like an alarm to opponents that King D3 might just be about to utilt, so it's kinda hard to get 'em with that trick.

Hey, 4God, what's your opinion on uthrow? Should I ever use it to get a Marth above me, since they can have trouble coming down?

CASE 1: Grab Marth somewhere near the center of the stage.

Here, chaingrabbing to the edge is a better option than uthrow since you could still use your uthrow at the end of the chaingrab near the edge. This leads us to case 2.


CASE 2: Grab Marth near enough to the ledge that chaingrabbing is not an option.

You say you want to use uthrow to get Marth above you. Usually fthrow and uthrow can both do that for you. Fthrow will place him at a greater disadvantage than uthrow, since after uthrow he can DI towards the stage and easily get back on. Fthrow can lead to bair gimps.

IMO, uthrow vs Marth is never the best option.

 

[Doc King]

Imo, you wanna keep bthrow fresh, since it can actually send opponents pretty far offstage. It can even kill at times. I also use bthrow after infiniting off a wall if I didn't have enough time to bring them up to utilt range. Anyway, that's just how I like to use bthrow. Besides, we were talking about grab releasing Wario, so your question is kinda out of context. You're right in that bthrow does more damage than fsmash and fair, though.

Hey, why don't we have an actual video critique thread on these boards? Not only that, but why can't I find any (recent) vids of professionals on these boards? We need a place where vids (professional and non-professional alike) can be compiled and stored for others to see.



Well, dthrow>dash attack isn't a true combo, but it's a pretty nice mixup, especially if you've just been doing CG's all day. I really don't think dthrow>usmash works, though. If Marth rolls or gets straight on, I actually like to dsmash. In a sense, it's like a Buuman Trap. It might also catch jumps from the ledge, too, as well as ledgehops. Also, in general, rolling is kind of like an alarm to opponents that King D3 might just be about to utilt, so it's kinda hard to get 'em with that trick.

Hey, 4God, what's your opinion on uthrow? Should I ever use it to get a Marth above me, since they can have trouble coming down?

Actually a weird thing is that characters will go to a hard land after the hitstun so you can you can get combo marth with his hitstun along with his hard landing lag with his rco lag. You would have to watch a rco lag vid to know what i mean. Other characters have ways of punishing rco lag, but I think Dedede has the best one and by a tier of his own if they made a tier list of best to worst rco punishers.

I do think that those mindgames are pretty good and they do act like buuman traps. We should probably call it the chaingrab trap.

I think that what chaingrabs really have other than damage racking is positioning. I think that Dedede is actually really good as positioning the heavy and middle weights minus Luigi and plus Squirtle. It's part of what makes Dedede so good in the game because of his good edge guarding. It's pretty much why we can do so well against Wario compared to others because we can send him off of the stage so he can't DI as well and we can give him massive damage doing it.