DDD Social: we livin' in smash 4

[ZTD | TECHnology]

That's because we're cool enough to realize where our character actually should be. He's still good though so there's no reason to fret like all the other boards.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

well its not just that, but when i get ppl that tell me my character is garbz with his mu counters(meaning the mus he disadvantaged at)

it makes me giggle on the inside because ive shown and known to myself that i can shut down n **** those kinda MUs when im focused-- any DDD can with some MU exp and tight n precise reads, follow ups and punishes

its just strange how other boards cant seem to dive into this mind set and just be chill. Most always got something to fret over, but not us DDD homski's daw. Its cuz of that love n devotion that gives us unwavering faith in our characters potential. It just goes to show if you truely love who you play then theres certainly nothing you cannot accomplish within the confines of this game and the meta game.

dis why i play DDD, it just feels good, feels right

yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I think it's just because D3 is so simple that we all adopt this mindset. We don't really have too many gimmicks or any ATS and whatnot so its basically adapt and use the tools we have to the fullest or get *****. Other character boards seem to spend way too much time trying to find gimmicks and things to get past problem MUs when in reality in most MUs you can win if you read right and you're on point.

Ah well that's their lost lol. Playing D3 has changed my overall game for the better and it translate into my Snake as well. This is why I now consider D3 and Snake both my mains. I use them equally now anyway.

You just gotta be chill like you said and the rest will fall into place.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

could be the way DDD is. DDD does have some gimmicks tho, n one i havent rly told this thread about was dthrow>usmash at da ledge.

i agree daw you gotta have a balance between what you need in terms of gimmics/ATs and what you already have going for you like basics. Too many gimmicks ATs n its like you'll be playing a autobot

ppl need to get back to their roots, what makes it fun n enjoyable for them. Thats when they'll start improving

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

D-Throw > U-Smash? Tell me more :o

And I completely agree. For example, I tried to main Falco and I spent a hell of a lot of time learning all of his ATs and gimmicks. I spent so much time learning these to the fact where I could do everything. SHDL, Silent Laser, BDacus (like a pro XD) Gatling, all of that ****. But I spent so much time on that I forgot about the basics and my Falco kept getting wrecked in tournament. People were wondering how I could do all of thst flashy **** with Falco but couldnt get good placings. Thats why I stopped playing him. I didnt realize that was my problem back then but I do now. I needed something more simple. And then I went to D3 which is ironic since he was my most hated character ever.

But yeah definitely needs to be a balance.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

might be easier to look at an animated gif so let me try doin that

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Awesome...so this needs to be perfectly spaced so that they land at the ledge? I'll wait for the animated gif since it would be a little easier to understand. This looks promising though. Does this work on everyone?

 

[Dark 3nergy]

basically anyone that can be CGed can be set up for this, even on far sliders like marth/pit/peach/TL i tried it on all of them. But yea you have to space it so that they fall off the ledge out of the slide from the dthrow.

i havent tried JC usmash, but imo JC usmash lets you slide and if you hold an attack button when you JC usmash you can charge usmash up as you slide

non-CGables it wont work.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Oh that's hot. I'm going to play around with this today before I go out. Could score some sexy kills like this.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

everyones got a different slide, so you have to space as such. And idk if its guaranteed or not. Regardless if it is or not, they'll auto grab the ledge and punish which prolly wont kill you since the rest of the stage is behind you at that point.

Actually see how that wood stump is coming out of the stage? Try using that stump as a bench marker. Have DDD sit center to the stump and try it from there. Let me know what you get.

Yes i tried it on Lylat with Ike and it works even with the tilting of the stage. All that needs to happen is this mechanic of them sliding from dthrow then immediately falling off the ledge

i dont rly take credit for it or anything, the japanese already had this figured out and have already been using it as such.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I get what you're saying. I am going to toy around with it today and let you know the results. Its worth playing around with. Thanks for letting me know about this.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

yup

try building a custom stage and trying to get the spacing off of that. I cant on my hacked wiis. If you have a buddy irl that can help you practice this please do so. I dont have these 2 things available to me so more info on what we can do with it is def a plus

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Yeah I am beginning to wonder if there are more things we can do from the landing animation the opponent gets. I'll see if I can get some friends over. This is definitely worth investigating,. Junk, Coney/any knowledgable D3 do you guys have anything to add about this topic.

*goes to start playing around with it*

 

[Tmacc]

I haven't heard of this before. Let me know what you find out. I'll try it out a little bit today too, see what I can gather.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I am testing as I type this. I will be making a thread which will show the distances fro, the ledge needed to force the animation where they hit the ledge. After that I will be seeing whether JCed Up-Smash makes this easier. Ive found some interesting stuff so far. Tmacc PM me with your findings and we can wrap it all together in one thread. Don't know why we havent been using this tbh.



2nd EDIT: Oh I see what I need to do now as far as measurements. I got this now.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

i told junk/vex about this about a month or so back

junk said he might mess around with it

as you guys test this, i want you both to make a list of slides. And ask yourself a couple of questions when you trying this on xx character;

How far do they slide?

in comparison to Vayseth's list-- use his list as a means to judge your dthrow spacing from the ledge ;

Chapter 2.2: The Chainable Few

******** Difficulty (3 Grabs Max):

* Luigi



VERY HARD Difficulty (4 Grabs Max):

* Diddy Kong
* Toon Link
* Pit



HARD Difficulty (4-5 Grabs)

* Peach
* Ice Climbers (Solo Popo or SoPo)
* Marth



AVERAGE Difficulty (5-6 Grabs)

* Mario
* Yoshi
* Wario
* Link
* Gannondorf
* Samus
* R.O.B.
* King Dedede
* Wolf
* Captain Falcon
* Ivysaur
* Charizard
* Lucario
* Ike
* Ness
* Lucas
* Snake
* Sonic



VERY EASY Difficulty (6+ Grabs!)

* Bowser
* Donkey Kong



A brief explanation of this list:
1. ********- Luigi slides really far away making the difficulty for a regrab as well as the timing required to successfully chain D Throws together is very tight. Be careful or you'll eat a fire punch.

2. VERY HARD- These three slide a good deal out of the way and are able to be grabbed again, but not by much. Again, the timing to successfully chain your D Throws is a very small window.

3. HARD- These guys can be chained effectively more times than the previous three, but the window to chain D Throws is very tight.

4. AVERAGE- These are your average 5-6 grab across the stage guys. Some you'll only get 5, some you can squeeze in 6, it all depends on your buffering and timing. Don't worry about screwing this up.

5. VERY EASY- You'd have to be an idiot to not successfully chain grabs against these guys. The timing is so forgiving it's a joke. They move only a short distance from King Dedede that you won't even need to take more than a step sometimes (*cough* Walking Chaingrab *cough*).

When i originally figured this out, i used Vayseth's guide to help me with seeing who slid the furtherest and to see what other follow ups where available out of CGing. So by all means have your computer up and have Vayseth's guide on your PC so you can read it over carefully as you play around with this. Keep in mind when he talks about grab amounts, this will help you determine the slide per character in their own respective groups. So characters like Mario and Ike should slide relatively similarly since you can get around 5-6 grabs.

What maps are you having troubling with this on? Why? Make a list of stages you try this on and be sure to preform it off of every transformation the map might offer. Which includes doing it successfully on ledges on all of delfinos transfermations,halberds, and castle siege.

What dthrow>usmash position on xx stage seemed more consistent for xx character? Why do you think so?



Try out JC usmash, Can you charge[analog forward+c up+attack+jump button simultaneously] while doing this? Can you do it without the charge? Its important that you get a slide out of the usmash. As you want to hit them with the tip of the hammer as they just start to fall off.

@technical, small flimsey [lucarios, n diddy]tails dont have hurt boxes on them iirc, go with feet.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

This is how I will be measuring this to start (for general distance measurement purposes before we get to the complicated stuff) :

As we all may have noticed there are those black squares on the sides of the stage. I will be using those as a general measurement when the opponent is in D3's hands. Since D3s grab range is so huge it would be too broad and inaccurate to do the measurement in relation to where the opponent is standing. I will be using feet for this also as I agree with the tail thing.

I'll keep Vay's list in mind also when testing all of this.

 

[Coney]

i thought she was talking about dthrow to usmash on the ledge in such a way that, like, it limits the options; they can't spotdodge, roll away or toward, they can only really jab or maybe jump away

but actually picking someone up from getting the ledge is interesting, though it seems like it'd be unreliable and would only work once...but hey, once is all it takes. hell, dthrow > dash attack still works, right?

slightly interested

 

[Dark 3nergy]

coney that is the essence of what this is doing, they cant buffer shield out of this, because they're already in the air. Once they drop off the stage they can do the following; auto grab ledge, drop down, jump, air dodge, any aerial, special.

and i dont think you understand what im talking about, im talking about this;

dthrow them in such a way that they slide off the ledge naturally then buffer a dash/start a sliding usmash

But if your gonna be an elitest prick and not help out then by all means dont post, thanks.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I see this a way to make Up Smash killing a bit more viable. Knowing this information would only help in the long run. And if you just happen to grab them at the correct distance afterwards and if you suspect that you have (after testing its getting easier to spot the correct distance by eye ) then you could just react and follow through. This is going to require a little time to test all of the variables but I want to at least get the general distance down so that we can get the right idea. Obviously stages with different ledge mechanics will affect testing but Final Destination is a good start. I see this as one more stupid gimmick that we can whip out.

I have some errands to run but I will be doing more testing this weekend. Tmacc or anyone else interested PM me with observations. Or I will just make a thread. Whatever works.

What button do you use for Jump if you're religiously using JCed U-Smashes? X and Y feel wayyyy too awkward.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

technical, yea those squares sound find. Going by the geometry of the stage is typically the best way to start measuring. So if you find any bumps, or visual geometry on the stage that'll help you thats exactly what you should be doing.

The only thing that can hinder something like this is some sort of tilt up word where the usmash hit box would miss hitting them as they fall off.

 

[Tmacc]

But if your gonna be an elitest prick and not help out then by all means dont post, thanks.

I don't think he was being an elitist prick at all...

This would be a great set up if it worked on even a semi-consistent basis. I'll let you guys know what I find out tonight.

 

[Coney]

wow what? that was awfully curt, i was just saying that i thought you were talking about something that's pretty situational, but then with the gif you posted i saw you were talking about something that could potentially have a lot more applications...i'm just skeptical of its practicality, but that doesn't mean it has none and i'm shooting you down. i'm skeptical of everything until i actually do it for myself.

the reason i say it may only work once or so is because, wouldn't they have the ability to fastfall after getting off the ledge? that is, if they saw it coming? worst-case scenario, that diddy could fastfall, have ledge invincibility and come up and fair us off the ledge. of course this technique would be EXTREMELY surprising, i'd think, but once people see it once or twice i feel like they'd be prepared. if they don't have the ability to fastfall then that's great, i just literally know nothing about this game, lol

i'm not being elitist in the slightest, i just don't offer to help because my technical ability is among the worst and i'd probably just mess it up anyway, i was just saying i'm interested to see what you guys find

goodness gracious

also chase, if you use only either L or R to shield, i'd say use the other to jump; it helps with ddd buffered jumps and could also help you jc usmash

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

LOL at internet misinterpretations.

Seriously Coney is so not elitist.

And the dilemma is I use L to Shield but R to Shield Cancel Grab. I suppose I should try R first since I don't use it for simple shielding. I should take pictures for my findings..but I need an SD card reader for Laptop. I hope they aren't expensive.

 

[PZ]

Any1 know where the video of a waddle dee killing a pro snake in the hand of a pro D3? I wanna watch that again=( lol

 

[Dark 3nergy]

They're not that expensive. Dont buy anything for the wii that has a high speed label on it. It wont work properly. Stick to 2gig those'll run you about 14 bucks. There are sd readers out there but those can run you alittle more money. If anything save the replay n send it to me over aim.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Oh I have a card I just need the reader. I'm hoping they are 20 or something. Guess ill have to find out on my own.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Check the sides of your laptop first, most upto date laptops have a SD card port on the sides of them.

N while you guys are researching dthrow, i might as well show off some other stuff i've been looking at;

Spoiler

Characters that can get grab and air release gimped out of upb.

They can still use their second jump if they come out of the release and still have it so BEWARE. Also-- DO NOT PUMMEL!!
Characters that can get AR gimped out of upb(this is assuming the second jump has been used. If not they can use their second jump out of the AR):

G&W upb (speed hug and watch for aerials, or side b)

Snake upb (he will DI toward stage and C4 himself)

Yoshi after he uses second jump (speed hug and watch for egg throw)

Sonics upb (speed hug, watch out for fair/uair as he DIs to the ledge)

Lucario (speed hug after release, in the event he upbs to wall clings and you grab him out of the wall cling jump he also does not get his upb back)

Pit (speed hug after release, watch for aerials/arrows)

*Solo Popo (he can use his upb and side b to try and get back. And will most likey side b out of the air release. However since hes alone the AR puts him in a perfect spot for edge guarding. I definitely recommend AR popo out of his jumps/upb.)

*Diddy Kong upb doesn’t work, but you should grab him and AR him out of it. As it’ll force him to either side b or jump. And you can AR gimp him out of side b. (Heres the trick. If he uses his side b and DOESN’T KICK, you can AR him out of it and he’ll be forced to either 1. Second jump 2. UPB. Get the read and follow up. So what happens if he uses the kick in the side b animation? He goes into the special lag animation. Where his arms stick out and his toes curve in. He is helpless in this animation. IF YOU GRAB him out of side b and hes done the kick in the animation HE WILL NOT GET HIS UPB/SIDE B BACK!! Speed hug the ledge immediately after the AR. He cannot do anything to you. If he has saved his second jump after he gets the AR he can still use it so beware! In the event he grabs you out of his side B, smacks you with it, run back to him and grab him in the delay. You’ll get the same effect as you would if you grabbed him out of the kick part of the special. Again, dangly feet = AR so make sure you grab him over the ledge!!!)

*Wario can use his side b and upb again if you AR him out of it. Obviously, Wario has a bad AR so follow up with usmash, bair, utilt as usual.

*ROB you can AR gimp him out of upb if he uses all his robo fuel. You can even pummel release him out of the grab and he wont get his upb back if hes used all his fuel.

*ZSS, you can also air release gimp ZSS after she uses both her jump and downB -- Claus http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbbfVHHOYO8#t=2m45s
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Characters you cannot;

Pikachu (both skull bash and upb)

Marth upb

Wolf(both side b and upb)

Meta Knight (all specials, try dee toss after though, his air release lasts forever)

Falco/Fox (can be useful to killing his second jump and forcing him to side b into lips, under stage though, don’t forget to speed hug and roll slowly ontop. Both upb and side b don’t work)

Olimar upb (the AR still keeps him in a really bad spot, watch out for another upb and follow up)

PT (all 3 pokemon upbs)

Kirby (if you make him use all his jumps, and if you can manage to grab out of upb it should be easy to gimp him if you wall him away with bairs/fairs after the AR. He can still move forward with side b. Just be patient and keep walling him til he drops too low. The timing is tricky since the final cutter is active when you drop shield.)

*Ice Climbers (If you grab popo. Nana will harass you while you have popo. However due to the way their recovery is set up. Nana will DI down toward you/the ground first, grab her and throw her offstage with dthrow/fthrow and go out n gimp her. Obviously don’t bother AR, throw her off before Popo comes out of special lag.)

Samus’ upb

Ganondorf (side b and upb)

Falcon (side b and upb)

Toon Link upb

Bowser upb

DK upb

Marios upb

*Luigi (all specials, however if most luigis recover low they’re using their second jump to accelerate upwords. AR them out of their down b, and edge guard for the gimp)

Peach upb and side b

*Link upb, however his AR sends him far out enough it should put him in a good spot for DDD to edge guard.

Zelda/Shieks upb

Ike upb and side b. upb is hard to grab him out of.

Ness upb – force an air release on ness after he second jumps it’ll force him to upb. Edge hog --- junk

Jiggly puff has no upb recovery move. Go for pummel releases instead

Lucas upb

DDD upb

 

[DewDaDash]

can someone link me to this tierlist that y'all are talking about. I honestly don't like to see ddd as a lower tier =/

actually id rather not see it, now that i think about it. nvm carry on lol.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

...o_O DDD ..would be like upper mid tier at lowest Dew. Besides he moved down 2 spots. Olimar/Pikachu is infront of him.

 

[The Phazon Assassin]

Fox sucks. Falco sucks. MK sucks.

I got 25th out of 66 at a tourney today, all Dedede. I did this really weird combo with Dedede today, but I don't really remember what it was. It was like, I hit the guy with a Waddle Dee, then he air dodged while I Naired. He landed and the Nair was still out, so it connected, then I Baired him. I think that's what it was. Also, I won my first match ever with a Dededecide. I was down 100%+ to like.....his 20 or so.

I'm talking too much....

Also, if they don't expect it, on characters you can't chaingrab, Down Throw > Run forward > B reversed Swallow works when they try to roll behind you. I did it a few times today, and caught some people off guard.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

gj tusm, n happy birthday since i dont think you visit aib lol

 

[DewDaDash]

well in that case we need to bring him back up :/

 

[Dark 3nergy]

read the last few pages, i posted info that might help, but untill people test the stuff i dont know how far it'll take DDD but its a start. Even if all it ends up to be is a mix up its something.

im pretty confident in feeling he'll never rise hes too 1 dimensional n really the only thing left is to find ways of messing with his dthrow + using different game mechanics with it

 

[Technodeath]

Yeah DDD is one dimensional, we can all agree to that.

All there really is left for him is mix ups and mindgames. Which is completely player dependant

 

[7Claus]

Check the sides of your laptop first, most upto date laptops have a SD card port on the sides of them.

N while you guys are researching dthrow, i might as well show off some other stuff i've been looking at;

Spoiler

Characters that can get grab and air release gimped out of upb.

They can still use their second jump if they come out of the release and still have it so BEWARE. Also-- DO NOT PUMMEL!!
Characters that can get AR gimped out of upb(this is assuming the second jump has been used. If not they can use their second jump out of the AR):

G&W upb (speed hug and watch for aerials, or side b)

Snake upb (he will DI toward stage and C4 himself)

Yoshi after he uses second jump (speed hug and watch for egg throw)

Sonics upb (speed hug, watch out for fair/uair as he DIs to the ledge)

Lucario (speed hug after release, in the event he upbs to wall clings and you grab him out of the wall cling jump he also does not get his upb back)

Pit (speed hug after release, watch for aerials/arrows)

*Solo Popo (he can use his upb and side b to try and get back. And will most likey side b out of the air release. However since hes alone the AR puts him in a perfect spot for edge guarding. I definitely recommend AR popo out of his jumps/upb.)

*Diddy Kong upb doesn’t work, but you should grab him and AR him out of it. As it’ll force him to either side b or jump. And you can AR gimp him out of side b. (Heres the trick. If he uses his side b and DOESN’T KICK, you can AR him out of it and he’ll be forced to either 1. Second jump 2. UPB. Get the read and follow up. So what happens if he uses the kick in the side b animation? He goes into the special lag animation. Where his arms stick out and his toes curve in. He is helpless in this animation. IF YOU GRAB him out of side b and hes done the kick in the animation HE WILL NOT GET HIS UPB/SIDE B BACK!! Speed hug the ledge immediately after the AR. He cannot do anything to you. If he has saved his second jump after he gets the AR he can still use it so beware! In the event he grabs you out of his side B, smacks you with it, run back to him and grab him in the delay. You’ll get the same effect as you would if you grabbed him out of the kick part of the special. Again, dangly feet = AR so make sure you grab him over the ledge!!!)

*Wario can use his side b and upb again if you AR him out of it. Obviously, Wario has a bad AR so follow up with usmash, bair, utilt as usual.

*ROB you can AR gimp him out of upb if he uses all his robo fuel. You can even pummel release him out of the grab and he wont get his upb back if hes used all his fuel.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Characters you cannot;

Pikachu (both skull bash and upb)

Marth upb

Wolf(both side b and upb)

Meta Knight (all specials, try dee toss after though, his air release lasts forever)

Falco/Fox (can be useful to killing his second jump and forcing him to side b into lips, under stage though, don’t forget to speed hug and roll slowly ontop. Both upb and side b don’t work)

Olimar upb (the AR still keeps him in a really bad spot, watch out for another upb and follow up)

PT (all 3 pokemon upbs)

Kirby (if you make him use all his jumps, and if you can manage to grab out of upb it should be easy to gimp him if you wall him away with bairs/fairs after the AR. He can still move forward with side b. Just be patient and keep walling him til he drops too low. The timing is tricky since the final cutter is active when you drop shield.)

*Ice Climbers (If you grab popo. Nana will harass you while you have popo. However due to the way their recovery is set up. Nana will DI down toward you/the ground first, grab her and throw her offstage with dthrow/fthrow and go out n gimp her. Obviously don’t bother AR, throw her off before Popo comes out of special lag.)

Samus’ upb

Ganondorf (side b and upb)

Falcon (side b and upb)

Toon Link upb

Bowser upb

DK upb

Marios upb

*Luigi (all specials, however if most luigis recover low they’re using their second jump to accelerate upwords. AR them out of their down b, and edge guard for the gimp)

Peach upb and side b

*Link upb, however his AR sends him far out enough it should put him in a good spot for DDD to edge guard.

Zelda/Shieks upb

Ike upb and side b. upb is hard to grab him out of.

Ness upb – force an air release on ness after he second jumps it’ll force him to upb. Edge hog --- junk

Jiggly puff has no upb recovery move. Go for pummel releases instead

Lucas upb

DDD upb

You can also air release gimp ZSS after she uses both her jump and downB - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbbfVHHOYO8#t=2m45s

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Going to do some more testing. And I still think that 7Claus's avy is ****.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

oh **** thanks for that claus i never would of figured that out on my own

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I should have some findings to report soon. Been slowly getting around to it.

 

[Commander_Beef]

...o_O DDD ..would be like upper mid tier at lowest Dew. Besides he moved down 2 spots. Olimar/Pikachu is infront of him.

I know that's super horrible now that he's BELOW Pikachu... I can understand Olimar...... but Pikachu?

I'll accept it now lol

Basically Olimar and King Dedede switched places... and so did Mr. Game & Watch with Lucario<--- which is also realistic.
And there's finally a fair looking tier list in terms of top tier characters... last list included Meta Knight as the only TOP character. It's good that it's all settled in now in terms of realism. King Dedede is definitely where he should be now, middle of High tier.

You can also air release gimp ZSS after she uses both her jump and downB - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbbfVHHOYO8#t=2m45s

That is ****, good job Claus. I see that you've improved QUITE a bit