Dawn of a New Day: Vectoring (Mostly) Removed in Patch 1.0.4

[Shaya]

Marth's fair in Brawl shifted him forward (think an SDI input; either a property of fair or that it helped aerial acceleration), in such a way that spamming fair [while you were recovering above stage height] was optimal for helping you get back to the stage (if someone wasn't jumping out to kill you).

So.... eh.

 

[DeLux]

I ran a bunch of tests and I now know WHAT inputs are optimal for surviving 45 degree knockback, buuut I've no clue why.

Used:

• motion sensor bomb (45 degree angle knockback)
• sheik/marth/lucario/dk/ganon/charizard
• fd

Method: (Thanks for the idea, @BengalsRZ )
Roll to LEFT corner, create the bomb, hit the bomb with an attack, before downward "DI" is inputted I held a direction. I then tested how long I could survive by manipulating combinations of ALL of these variables:

• control stick direction
• holding control stick before knockback
• holding control stick mid-way through knockback
• holding control stick after hitstun wears off
• aerials
• jumping
• fast falling
• crouching
• attack used to destroy bomb (dtilt, ftilt, special, smash attack)

Here are my findings:
Keep in mind my findings aren't entirely inclusive. There are exceptions, including Charizard who I'll mention at the end.

The best way to survive a 45 degree angled knockback is to hold directly towards the stage (in this case, right) and spam the A button if you have a quick f-air (OR spam jump, but I saw no noticeable difference in survivability, so don't waste your second jump). No, I don't know what characteristics the f-air needs to have. I chose f-airs who come out relatively quickly and can autocancel after a SH. Sheik, Marth, Lucario were the "quick" ones in my experiment.

If you have have a slow f-air, it's best to hold towards the stage (in this case, right), and spam jump to get maximum survivability. Again, no, I don't know exactly what characteristics the f-air needs to have to be considered "slow." I chose f-airs whose hitboxes don't come out quickly. The "slow" f-airs in my experiment were dk and ganon.

For the "slow" f-airs, there was about a 1% difference in survivability between spamming forward+"A", and spamming forward+jump. At very high percents that 1% will turn into 2-3% difference in survivability because in my experiment I was only dealing with 55~69%. That in mind, you may just want hold towards the stage and spam "A" anyways to increase your chances of not being gimped after surviving the knockback. This means you would take the risk that you might die spamming "A" when spamming jump could have made you live by 2-3%.

Note: For anyone that wants to try to find out exactly what characteristics make "quick" f-airs = jumping > "slow" f-airs, take a look at Charizard who survives longer by spamming jump even though he's got a "quick" f-air by my definition used earlier.

I wonder if this will be augmented by the use of Cstick while being able to hold towards the stage.

 

[Player-1]

For some rough calculations, I assigned some arbitrary numbers to @NinjaLink 's video. There are just some estimate's of the distance from a visual perspective, but the general rule of thumb i went by was FOR HORIZONTAL ONLY:
0: No DI/Vector, Jigglypuff was partially on screen and partially off screen (wait for the camera to pan out and you can see Jiggz's ears just a bit)
+5: Was off screen with no bubble (a small window so I think this is roughly accurate)
+10: In bubble (a larger window so this might be off a bit)
-5: All of jiggz is on screen, between the edge of the screen and the line/path on the hill in the background)
-10: Jiggz is on the line/patch of the hill in the background

Holding up resulted in a 5 (Jiggz was put in the vertical bubble, if you wait til she falls she is not in the bubble)
Holding Left resulted in a -10
Holding down resulted in a -5
Holding Right resulted in a 10

These seemed pretty consistent in @NinjaLink 's video, the diagnols were more inconsistent when NinjaLink did them so these are more roughly estimated:

Up-Left resulted in a -10 (near the end of the video you can see NL testing up-left and left back to back seemed about the same)
Up-Right resulted in a 10
Down-Right resulted in a 5? (This was the one that seemed most variable in the video, I think NL tested this direction 3 times, each gave a different result of 10, 5, and 0).
Down-Left resulted in a -10.

So ya again, rough estimates basesd on NinjaLink's video, could be some slight differences in distance based on where Jiggz is standing or how long NL held the direction and let go etc, but take it as you will.

 

[stingers]

perhaps the stages are slightly trapezoidal?

 

[Random4811]

Well, we were hitting it pretty low to the ground. I'm not sold--will test more on WiiU.

What is this "One inch punch?"

 

[Terotrous]

This is ludicrously huge if true. If Yoshi Dthrow to Uair is now a true combo at certain percents he is stupid strong.

 

[Tristan_win]

Just got done with a little bit of testing with @saviorslegacy


Before Sheik had a guarantee combo on De3 with fthrow into bouncing fish till 20% now it's like 65%. Keep in mind this is with DI up and towards Sheik. Sadly it's not this good on everyone and it seem at the very least some characters still don't get hit at all with upward DI.

 

[DanGR]

Marth's fair in Brawl shifted him forward (think an SDI input; either a property of fair or that it helped aerial acceleration), in such a way that spamming fair [while you were recovering above stage height] was optimal for helping you get back to the stage (if someone wasn't jumping out to kill you).

So.... eh.

mmmm.. I forgot about that, aaaaand I can't test if it's the same for SSB4 because I've got no c-stick. -_-

I wonder if this will be augmented by the use of Cstick while being able to hold towards the stage.

I'm guessing with a c-stick it'll just be fastest aerial like in Brawl.

 

[Tagxy]

Are we certain that holding up on a horizontal hit definitively adds more vertical knockback, and isnt just a higher angle with increased horizontal knockback? I feel like that would be really hard to differentiate, and the latter makes more sense.

I attempted to summarize what was known about vectoring before the change so people do not mistake old attributes for the new mechanic. Feel free to correct any errors, this is based on information and testing near the end of the old vectoring thread.

As far as I know based on that thread:
-Vectoring was the quality of adding or reducing knockback for a given hit.
-It was achieved by holding either up to add knockback or down to reduce knockback
-The closer to directly up/down of the joystick input the greater the affect vectoring had.
+Along with vertical trajectories, this also included horizontal trajectories that also increased/decreased in knockback with up/down.
+Left/Right had no affect on Vectoring
+The affect to horizontal vs vertical trajectories depended on the launch angle
+DI still existed alongside vectoring, though was less pronounced compared to previous games.

 

[Player-1]

For some rough calculations, I assigned some arbitrary numbers to @NinjaLink 's video. There are just some estimate's of the distance from a visual perspective, but the general rule of thumb i went by was FOR HORIZONTAL ONLY:
0: No DI/Vector, Jigglypuff was partially on screen and partially off screen (wait for the camera to pan out and you can see Jiggz's ears just a bit)
+5: Was off screen with no bubble (a small window so I think this is roughly accurate)
+10: In bubble (a larger window so this might be off a bit)
-5: All of jiggz is on screen, between the edge of the screen and the line/path on the hill in the background)
-10: Jiggz is on the line/patch of the hill in the background

Holding up resulted in a 5 (Jiggz was put in the vertical bubble, if you wait til she falls she is not in the bubble)
Holding Left resulted in a -10
Holding down resulted in a -5
Holding Right resulted in a 10

These seemed pretty consistent in @NinjaLink 's video, the diagnols were more inconsistent when NinjaLink did them so these are more roughly estimated:

Up-Left resulted in a -10 (near the end of the video you can see NL testing up-left and left back to back seemed about the same)
Up-Right resulted in a 10
Down-Right resulted in a 5? (This was the one that seemed most variable in the video, I think NL tested this direction 3 times, each gave a different result of 10, 5, and 0).
Down-Left resulted in a -10.

So ya again, rough estimates basesd on NinjaLink's video, could be some slight differences in distance based on where Jiggz is standing or how long NL held the direction and let go etc, but take it as you will.

So along with this, I did some testing myself.

I was Bowser on BF.

I roll to the edge of the stage, I spawn a blast box and shoot fire. Using this at 50%, I go off screen, but not into the bubble.
Same method, but holding down I go into the bubble (mostly, I fade in and out due to bowser's tumble animation entering and exiting where the area for the bubble to spawn is).
Same method, but holding up. Bowser is mostly on screen (part of him is still off screen).

This means for NL's Bowser fsmash on Jiggz method, HOLDING UP SENDS MORE AWAY AND HOLDING DOWN SENDS LESS AWAY.

BUT

For my method of Bowser with a blast box, HOLDING UP SENDS LESS AWAY AND HOLDING DOWN SENDS MORE AWAY.

I THINK the reason for this is because Bowser's fsmash has more horizontal trajectory than vertical, and the blast box has more vertical trajectory than horizontal. So these 2 directions will swap where they send you depending on the trajectory. Anyone want to look more into that?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Thinkaman and I observed the following between Ganon ftilt and Ike bthrow. He already posted but I don't think was super clear about exactly what we saw:

Holding up does nothing. It doesn't make you die sooner, but it doesn't protect you either and has identical behavior to no input. Holding down made Ganon ftilt kill later and seemed to bend the angle below the plane of the stage but didn't affect the trajectory of Ike bthrow at all. That trajectory looked like a straighter line to the blast zone too; I was really confused by it killing a little later. Down was held by taunting and holding down during the taunt animation; crouch cancel was not in effect (it was confirmed on Mute City that crouch cancel only exists for true crouching, not holding down during taunts or dtilts). In all cases, if I held a direction, I kept holding it indefinitely.

For vertical moves (we used Ganon usmash and Dr. Mario dthrow), up/down don't do anything at all while left/right give Brawl style DI. It was so ridiculously identical to Brawl behavior if left/right were the inputs.

That result really doesn't make sense. Holding up does nothing ever, holding down sometimes has a strange effect. You guys are reporting holding up to do something, and this behavior really doesn't seem consistent move to move as everyone's report is different. I hope when Wii U comes out we'll find it easier to figure this out; this is just bizarre stuff.

 

[Tagxy]

@ Amazing Ampharos Holding up didnt even provide upwards DI? But down, left, and right did?

 

[Shaya]

"HAH HAH", said Sakurai, the demons and devils which haunt him finally overpowering his virtuous ideals, the white robed haloed "consciences" long strained and ridiculed, now buried without tombstone; "you wanted depth, I'll give you depth!"
*every move now has a variable between 1-4 which decides what direction best helps survival of a move irrespective of the move's trajectory - YOU'LL HAVE TO REMEMBER THEM ALL FOR EACH INDIVIDUAL MOVE*
[numbers randomly generated and changed between each patch]

 

[DeLux]

Maybe moves have a vector/DI multiplier similar to an SDI multiplier?

edit - Ninja'd by 15 mins by Shaya since I'm posting from work

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

All of these random reports are so confusing lol.

**** it. I am just not going to hold any direction at all after getting hit. And if I am KO'd, I will accept it like a true gentleman.

Sandbag will be proud.

 

[adlp]

can anyone confirm any changes to hitstun shuffling/SDI? i want that buffed :/

 

[DeLux]

The real kicker is going to be how being able to use the cstick to augment things will play out.

We already noticed that one can charge smash attacks while holding a cstick a direction. I wonder if that means it's possible to enter multiple directions at the same time by holding the sticks in different directions.

Plus the fastest aerial vs. fair speculation already hinted at.

 

[GreenFlame]

Welp, time for me to learn how to DI.

So, how do I DI?

 

[icraq]

Welp, time for me to learn how to DI.

So, how do I DI?

For right now I think the best option is just don't get hit.

 

[leafgreen386]

Some observations based on ninjalink's video. Note that since only bowser's fsmash was tested, any conclusions here may not apply equally to all attacks.

- Up: There is a clear and dramatic increase in knockback by holding up. Jiggs flies higher *and* further than no direction. She reaches the vertical bubble easily and is almost completely offscreen as she falls, but not quite in the horizontal bubble.
- Away: Has a stronger horizontal knockback, as you would expect. Jiggs reaches the horizontal bubble with this.
- Toward: Reduces the horizontal knockback as compared with no direction.
- Down: Reduces both the vertical *and* horizontal knockback, but does not reduce horizontal knockback by as much as holding toward.
- Holding nothing results in jiggs being halfway offscreen (not in the bubble).

In terms of horizontal survivability, toward>down>nothing>up>away.

Now, based on what we know from both brawl and previous testing in smash 4, holding a diagonal should be the combination of both directions (at full strength of effectiveness). Let's see if the diagonal tests ninjalink did match up with this theory:
Up-toward: Vertical bubble, seems to be roughly the same horizontal distance as just toward. Found at ~19:10 in the video (with toward for comparison immediately following).
Down-toward: Again seems to be roughly the same horizontal distance as just toward, but along a lower trajectory. Found at ~12:25 in the video.
Down-away: Reaches the bubble, just like holding away, but with a lower trajectory.
Up-away: Seems to barely reach both the vertical and horizontal bubbles.

This... sounds a lot like vectoring, doesn't it? Any variant of holding toward results in going the same horizontal distance. Any variant of holding away seems to also result in the same horizontal distance (harder to verify due to the nature of the bubble). I think we can conclude from this data that at the very least, horizontal vectoring is still in. Why isn't it DI? If this were DI, the distance would be different between up-toward and toward, and down-toward wouldn't do anything at all. The game only cares about your left/right input for controlling how far horizontally you go.

...well, I'd like to say that's true, but the most peculiar thing is that while up-toward, toward, and down-toward all sent the same horizontal distance, up/down/no direction each sent jiggs a different horizontal distance, with up sending further than no direction and down sending less far. This is the opposite of how DI normally works, and even vectoring doesn't fully explain it.

Every direction except straight up and straight down can be explained straightforwardly by vectoring, and vectoring appears to still be playing a role in those directions as well. There is some additional component, however, and I can only think that it's due to some kind of glitch.

A reminder once again that all of this was based on testing only one move, so this pattern may not necessarily be valid for all angles, and it may have a certain angle limit the way spikes and meteors do.

edit:

Are we certain that holding up on a horizontal hit definitively adds more vertical knockback, and isnt just a higher angle with increased horizontal knockback? I feel like that would be really hard to differentiate, and the latter makes more sense.

This may well be what's happening, specifically for up/down. That is, the angle becomes higher/lower, but the knockback itself is also modified to become stronger/weaker, respectively. It's as if it's applying vectoring along the axis of launch, but DI is controlling the angle. That still begs the question though: Why do diagonals seem to always land at the same point horizontally?

---

I'm almost positive that the reason different results are coming from testing different moves has to do with differing angles of launch; there are probably angle ranges where "vectoring" is possible, and angle ranges where "DI" is possible. They may or may not overlap in certain instances.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Certain angle for vectoring and certain for DI? That is...absolutely the most confusing thing ever. I would NOT be surprised if that was ****ing true lol.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

@ Amazing Ampharos Holding up didnt even provide upwards DI? But down, left, and right did?

That's right; it did nothing. Down only sometimes did something (like Ganon ftilt it did something but Ike bthrow it did not do anything), and it didn't behave like Brawl DI really (it lowered the trajectory, but it seemed to move the overall path closer to a straight line to the blast zone while somehow enhancing survival anyway). For mostly horizontal moves, left/right did nothing. For vertical moves, left/right behaved exactly like Brawl DI while up/down did nothing. I have no idea how to make sense of these results; I dunno if we were just doing it wrong or what because there seems to be no rhyme or reason to how this works based on our preliminary results.

 

[Sinister Slush]

The real kicker is going to be how being able to use the cstick to augment things will play out.

It's weird how someone finally pointed out Cstick.
I say we just wait till tomorrow (or technically today for some people? I'm getting the game at 10 pm nyways) to start confirming DI VI or whatever, cause who knows if the C-stick will debunk one of them or even both somehow someway.

 

[Thinkaman]

It's weird how someone finally pointed out Cstick.
I say we just wait till tomorrow (or technically today for some people? I'm getting the game at 10 pm nyways) to start confirming DI VI or whatever, cause who knows if the C-stick will debunk one of them or even both somehow someway.

Yeah, that's sort of why I stepped out of the convo. No point stressing out over information that may be immediately obsolete or otherwise overshadowed.

That, and I wanted to sleep. Which I failed at pretty bad.

 

[DeLux]

I guess this means the game is obviously broken and we shouldn't play it.

I'll see you all at Apex 2015 in Brawl 1v1 and 2v2.

 

[Tagxy]

That's right; it did nothing. Down only sometimes did something (like Ganon ftilt it did something but Ike bthrow it did not do anything), and it didn't behave like Brawl DI really (it lowered the trajectory, but it seemed to move the overall path closer to a straight line to the blast zone while somehow enhancing survival anyway). For mostly horizontal moves, left/right did nothing. For vertical moves, left/right behaved exactly like Brawl DI while up/down did nothing. I have no idea how to make sense of these results; I dunno if we were just doing it wrong or what because there seems to be no rhyme or reason to how this works based on our preliminary results.

Out of curiosity, could you DI left/right from Ike's bthrow?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

-"So could someone please explain to me what's the deal with DI and vectoring?"
-"Oh it's very simple. You hold a direction before/while getting hit, and sometimes it will help, sometimes it won't."

Good.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Out of curiosity, could you DI left/right from Ike's bthrow?

No, as far as we could tell (maybe we were doing it wrong), no DI at all had any effect on Ike's bthrow. We were using it at non-fatal percentages, just watching the victim's position change and it looked about the same no matter what was held. I offer no explanation for this as I find it bizarre.

 

[Rellekearth]

Hmmmmmmm I'm really curious now. Since moves that send foes upwards have no influence on knockback from holding up or down and moves that have the Sakurai angle have a difference in knockback when holding up/down. Now I'm cuious...

Test the launch speed of foes getting meteor smashed directly downward while holding up/down/nothing. See what happens. Sorry if this has been tested before.

No, as far as we could tell (maybe we were doing it wrong), no DI at all had any effect on Ike's bthrow. We were using it at non-fatal percentages, just watching the victim's position change and it looked about the same no matter what was held. I offer no explanation for this as I find it bizarre.

That throw might very well be a fixed knockback move with 0 knockback growth.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Hmmmmmmm I'm really curious now. Since moves that send foes upwards have no influence on knockback from holding up or down and moves that have the Sakurai angle have a difference in knockback when holding up/down. Now I'm cuious...

Test the launch speed of foes getting meteor smashed directly downward while holding up/down/nothing. See what happens. Sorry if this has been tested before.


That throw might very well be a fixed knockback move with 0 knockback growth.

It's not fixed. It's a very fatal throw against a 999% opponent... not that fixed knockback was a problem for DI before anyway.

 

[Johnny Heart Gold]

All vertical kill moves that were penalized by vectoring now are not.

I don't follow please elaborate more

 

[Rellekearth]

Oh ok, Sorry about that, didn't test it out for myself. In that case I have no idea. That is definitely a mystery.

I don't follow please elaborate more

Before the patch, holding down meant you decreased how fast you were being sent upwards.

After the patch, holding down does absolutely nothing, so moves that send people up are no longer hindered by them holding down.

 

[icraq]

After the patch, holding down does absolutely nothing, so moves that send people up are no longer hindered by them holding down.

just to help further clarify with an example, sometimes I'd run into a Robin player that might try to UpB me as I'm juggling them with Uairs, which would lead to their early demise as they DI'd a vertical attack straight up because they were holding Up for their Elwind.

Apparently there's no longer any risk for them to hold up, or any benefit.

 

[leafgreen386]

Hm... could you try estimating the exact angles of moves that behave oddly by checking them at 999% (to minimize the effect of gravity)? If my theory is correct, Ike's bthrow might exist outside the range that any form of DI or vectoring works at. Alternatively, there are no blind spots and ike's bthrow just has a special flag set (as a throw, this is fairly plausible).

 

[Johnny Heart Gold]

Oh ok, Sorry about that, didn't test it out for myself. In that case I have no idea. That is definitely a mystery.


Before the patch, holding down meant you decreased how fast you were being sent upwards.

After the patch, holding down does absolutely nothing, so moves that send people up are no longer hindered by them holding down.

So know I'm supposed to move in diagonal? I mean what i need to do know?

 

[Shaya]

[Certain] throws could not have DI on them?

 

[Rellekearth]

So know I'm supposed to move in diagonal? I mean what i need to do know?

Essentially what this does is punish people who are really good at DI (Because DIing towards the top corners for most attacks is what keeps you alive the longest) by making it so that holding up INCREASES the connected attack's launch speed. This makes you fly farther than if you did nothing at all. Inversely, trying to DI down in order to get decreased launch speed will send you at a horrible angle that you may be unable to recover from.

So in conclusion, the best way to tilt the control stick in the event of being hit by an attack is towards the attack itself. Most cases this means down and to the right/left

 

[leafgreen386]

[Certain] throws could not have DI on them?

Yeah, that was my other thought. It could just be a flag set and we never noticed it until now. Without more data, it's hard to tell.

I also don't have the game to test any of this myself, unfortunately.

 

[Johnny Heart Gold]

Essentially what this does is punish people who are really good at DI (Because DIing towards the top corners for most attacks is what keeps you alive the longest) by making it so that holding up INCREASES the connected attack's launch speed. This makes you fly farther than if you did nothing at all. Inversely, trying to DI down in order to get decreased launch speed will send you at a horrible angle that you may be unable to recover from.

So in conclusion, the best way to tilt the control stick in the event of being hit by an attack is towards the attack itself. Most cases this means down and to the right/left

So in a diagonal to the side of the attack itself?

 

[Tagxy]

Don't forget its possible to test launch angles via the results screen. Remember KPrime (aka pikabunz) showed that the gooey bomb (which had a horizontal hit) in fact was affected by holding up and down. However vertical moves also were not affected any longer with up/down. This was the original basis for our "horizontal only" VI.

However it seems, understandably, people may be on hiatus until the Wii U comes out. Last little note but the bullets I gave about how VI worked previously seemed to more or less stand up to existing testing, knowing how it worked before I believe will be key to understanding how its changed.