Dawn of a New Day: Vectoring (Mostly) Removed in Patch 1.0.4

[Thinkaman]

Im lost VI is diminished or completely out.
Am I holding Perpendicular, Parallel, Diagonal, upside down, right-side up, loop-de-loop or merry-go-round
to not die? What is the consensus?

Regardless of details, Brawl and Melee inputs seem optimal. Hold perpendicular.

Note that virtually no knockback is purely horizontal, so you should never be holding straight up. If I hit you "left", you should be holding up and right.

 

[Thinkaman]

@Thinkaman's Girlfriend test please


edit: @ Thinkaman LOL why is there a thinkaman's Girlfriend dying

@Zozefup @Rob_Gambino

You guys got some 'splaining to do.

Edit: Sorry double post don't hurt me.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Objection, the "One Inch Punch" tech is still in and it is not named after anyone specific.

On the topic of that, can Jiggs still survive from a one inch punch? Or was that already tested? What about regular piston punch? Will that kill early now despite the lack of vectoring?

Yes, she still survives holding down. This was my top priority test.

 

[Thinkaman]

Yes, she still survives holding down. This was my top priority test.

Well, we were hitting it pretty low to the ground. I'm not sold--will test more on WiiU.

 

[Remzi]

NinjaLink's video had some very strange results.

Is it possible that holding up/away from your opponent decreases your weight, while holding down/towards your opponent increases it? I'm very confused.

 

[DeLux]

Someone please read my post and perform so we can isolate variables.

Barring that, I am beginning taking applications for the Project V Backroom.

 

[wolfos144]

For moves that have a more horizontal trajectory, vectoring is definitely working. So, optimally you shouldn't just be doing normal DI.

 

[TL?]

If the new implementation is different enough to get renamed I vote for "knockback influence" as it can imply any combination of direction and force and is in layman's terms. Just throwing a suggestion out there! Hopefully I don't derail this topic, because I'd like to hear more data people are finding so let's keep discussing that. Good luck getting to the bottom of this, the results so far are kind of strange.

 

[Thinkaman]

For moves that have a more horizontal trajectory, vectoring is definitely working. So, optimally you shouldn't just be doing normal DI.

But even if there legitimately is a horizontal vector component, holding up and in--what you wanted to do anyway--remains optimal.

 

[DeLux]

If the new implementation is different enough to get renamed I vote for "knockback influence" as it can imply any combination of direction and force and is in layman's terms. Just throwing a suggestion out there! Hopefully I don't derail this topic, because I'd like to hear more data people are finding so let's keep discussing that. Good luck getting to the bottom of this, the results so far are kind of strange.

I vote for DI

AKA DeLux Influence

 

[Locuan]

Well, I always found altering the angle to be more intuitive, and was always confused by people who wanted to hold in. But, I can understand why they'd think that, and recognize that it's a majority decision.

Something something about recognizing the council's decision and choosing to ignore it.

Agreed. It should be more intuitive, but for some reason it is not. I do not want to confuse people here, but try to imagine a vector in Euclidean space. A vector has both magnitude and direction (an angle). If you hold in, you will only affect your X or Y coordinate. Your angle will remain the same. Now if you modify the angle, you will see a clear difference in both the X and Y coordinates. Thus, the trajectory would show a greater difference than if just holding in. Of course, I am assuming that the direction is not completely one sided in X or Y.

@ NinjaLink regarding your video. If I am not mistaken when you hold in after being sent flying from Bowser's f-smash, the horizontal distance that you travel (which I will refer to as X from now on) is practically that the same when holding diagonal up (+Y) and left (-X). However, the key difference is that you are sent higher up on the latter. Why would this be the case? Because while you are removing X direction units you are still adding Y direction units when you hold up. Unfortunately, I still cannot grasp why when holding only up you are sent further away in X. That simply makes no sense.

EDIT: When I read holding in or talk about holding in I always assume that people are just affecting a single direction, be it X or Y.

 

[Thinkaman]

Agreed. It should be more intuitive, but for some reason it is not. I do not want to confuse people here, but try to imagine a vector in Euclidean space. A vector has both magnitude and direction (an angle). If you hold in, you will only affect your X or Y coordinate. Your angle will remain the same. Now if you modify the angle, you will see a clear difference in both the X and Y coordinates. Thus, the trajectory would show a greater difference than if just holding in. Of course, I am assuming that it the direction is not completely one sided in X or Y.

Read all of this in Kurisu's voice. 10/10, would read again.

 

[Flamecircle]

So basically up and down vectoring don't work anymore, but horizontal still exists?

... are you sure it's not just the normal horizontal influence you'd have?

if that's the case, then does that mean they've just removed Vectoring without adding DI in?

 

[NinjaLink]

If the new implementation is different enough to get renamed I vote for "knockback influence" as it can imply any combination of direction and force and is in layman's terms. Just throwing a suggestion out there! Hopefully I don't derail this topic, because I'd like to hear more data people are finding so let's keep discussing that. Good luck getting to the bottom of this, the results so far are kind of strange.

I said KI = Knockback Influence from the beginning

 

[Big O]

@ Thinkaman @ NinjaLink

Okay so based on everything discovered until now.

-Vectoring is gone for vertical launching moves
-Such moves are only influenced by DI

-For horizontal moves (maybe Sakurai angle only?) there is DI and vectoring
-For such moves holding up increases knockback and holding down decreases knockback
-These moves are also affected by DI, which can make things confusing for survival (lower kb + lower angle vs. higher kb + higher angle)

What needs to be tested.

-What are the criteria for having this weird vectoring behavior?
-Is the degree to which kb is amplified by constant?
-Basically do these observations continue to hold true after more scrutiny.

 

[otter]

Vectoring is a really bad mechanic. People get upset about L-canceling because it's always the right choice and is only valuable as a single player challenge... granted, but vectoring is always the right choice and adds no challenge whatsoever! It just reduces comboability and makes stocks drag on forever for no effort. Even if you somehow like the results of vectoring, shouldn't it just be automatic?

At least DI made you think a little and provided mixups and there was such a thing as doing it wrong.

 

[Greward]

jiggs dies at 107% with no input on the circle pad from pit's side B
106% if I input upwards
108% if I input downwards
114% if I input away from pit (left)
105% if I input towards pit (right)

I don't really understand the mechanic of this game's influence

 

[Marcbri]

jiggs dies at 107% with no input on the circle pad from pit's side B
106% if I input upwards
108% if I input downwards
114% if I input away from pit (left)
105% if I input towards pit (right)

I don't really understand the mechanic of this game's influence

We just tested this and it looks so random. Horizontal knockbacks seem to be even more of a mess.

 

[Thinkaman]

jiggs dies at 107% with no input on the circle pad from pit's side B
106% if I input upwards
108% if I input downwards
114% if I input away from pit (left)
105% if I input towards pit (right)

I don't really understand the mechanic of this game's influence

?

This is standard behavior for an almost-vertical-knockback move.

 

[Hong]

All I want to know is what direction you have to press for what now.

The basic concepts of DI come to fruition, no?

In the most crude of terms, you direct your character so the cumulative sum of your launch has reached its maximum amount of distance before hitting the blast zone. Metaphorically it's like steering a car that is headed straight for a wall to the side in hopes that the full amount of forward momentum has been expended. From what we know, if we are sent upwards, we are back to holding left or right.

We are still trying to understand horizontal launches, but for the time being holding up and towards the stage seems to be netting the best benefit. Not going to going to make any conclusive statements on this yet, however.

 

[Nonon]

?

This is standard behavior for an almost-vertical-knockback move.

Depends on whether Pit is facing right or left. If he's facing right, then it's really weird.

edit: missed the edit, nevermind

 

[jarvitz]

It almost looks like if DI and vectoring are both happening AT THE SAME TIME. So holding a diagonal would be the best option. This obviously needs tested, but I feel like that is what is happening here.

 

[Thinkaman]

Depends on whether Pit is facing right or left. If he's facing right, then it's really weird.

Yeah, but he specified which way was "away" and "towards." These numbers could be straight out of Brawl or Melee.

 

[Marcbri]

?

This is standard behavior for an almost-vertical-knockback move.

The left and right inputs makes sense if we have Brawl DI but shouldn't down and up inputs be the same and not affect kill %?

 

[otter]

Is it possible that vectoring has just been weakened, so that DI just seems to have more of an influence than before?

 

[Jaedrik]

OH?

VI IS DEAD
LONG LIVE DI

 

[Locuan]

holding up and towards the stage seems to be netting the best benefit.

It seems to be the case, but from NinjaLink's video, holding up and towards the stage seems to add units to +Y as well. When just holding toward the stage lets you end up in the same or approximately the same X distance. As long as holding up doesn't KO you faster then both options would be equally viable for manipulating knock-back and surviving the hit.

 

[Thinkaman]

The left and right inputs makes sense if we have Brawl DI but shouldn't down and up inputs be the same and not affect kill %?

Not if the move isn't perfectly vertical. We'd except a veerrrry slight difference, like we see.

 

[Greward]

Not if the move isn't perfectly vertical. We'd except a veerrrry slight difference, like we see.

huh, i see. my bad then, thought there was some kinda leftover vector influence (although not useful, since just pressing away is better than away+down in this specific situation).

 

[Icylobster]

I'm starting to think we should wait to test on the Wii U. I mean what if it takes input from the analog stick and the c stick and we are only seeing part of the equation?

 

[Locke 06]

Agreed. It should be more intuitive, but for some reason it is not. I do not want to confuse people here, but try to imagine a vector in Euclidean space. A vector has both magnitude and direction (an angle). If you hold in, you will only affect your X or Y coordinate. Your angle will remain the same. Now if you modify the angle, you will see a clear difference in both the X and Y coordinates. Thus, the trajectory would show a greater difference than if just holding in. Of course, I am assuming that the direction is not completely one sided in X or Y.

EDIT: This is why I do not like the term vectoring. People only referred to the X or Y components of the vector without taking the angle into consideration and decided to call it vectoring -_-

@ NinjaLink regarding your video. If I am not mistaken when you hold in after being sent flying from Bowser's f-smash, the horizontal distance that you travel (which I will refer to as X from now on) is practically that the same when holding diagonal up (+Y) and left (-X). However, the key difference is that you are sent higher up on the latter. Why would this be the case? Because while you are removing X direction units you are still adding Y direction units when you hold up. Unfortunately, I still cannot grasp why when holding only up you are sent further away in X. That simply makes no sense.

Maybe I never understood vectoring (or DI) to begin with, so bear with me.

I thought you wanted to "vector" in the complete opposite of the knockback if you wanted to decrease knockback/survive; you add your own vector to the existing vector that is your momentum. If I am launched at a perfect diagonal up-right direction, I want to hold down-left to decrease the magnitude of my momentum vector (this does not change the angle in the slightest, but this way you get the least distance traveled).

DI in previous games only changed angle/direction, but not magnitude (hence directional influence). And vectoring made it so you could do both. It is intuitive if you want to slow down, to hold opposite the way you are headed. Similarly, it is intuitive that if you cannot slow down, you should alter your trajectory so that you are headed to the corners of the blast zone instead of straight towards a side. However, I would argue that the former intuition is stronger than the latter. Many of my friends who do not play Smash seriously/know little about its mechanics, when sent vertically, instinctively hold down because they do not want to go up; they do not DI left or right because they see that they can influence their direction, so why not magnitude? Vectoring, in this sense, was intuitive at least to me.

The holding up to increase the X coordinate makes absolutely no sense in any context... so I'd like it if we could just put that aside and call it shenanigans.

 

[Thinkaman]

This is why the Mute City hitbox was so valuable. Not only could it be used to test solo, it is perfectly vertical.

 

[Remzi]

We need an explanation for why Holding up when you are hit diagonally, gives you more horizontal AND vertical knockback. I saw it in my testing, and NinjaLink confirmed it in his video. Also, why does holding down on a hit with diagonal trajectory decrease your horizontal knockback.

Something is fishy.

 

[Locuan]

Maybe I never understood vectoring (or DI) to begin with, so bear with me.

I thought you wanted to "vector" in the complete opposite of the knockback if you wanted to decrease knockback/survive; you add your own vector to the existing vector that is your momentum. If I am launched at a perfect diagonal up-right direction, I want to hold down-left to decrease the magnitude of my momentum vector (this does not change the angle in the slightest, but this way you get the least distance traveled).

Precisely, mathematically that is what makes sense. However, it seems like before we had influence in the Y directions and not so much in the X; that is how I had understood it after debating it in the Vectoring thread and people pointing it out to me multiple times. It did affect somewhat but not as it should. On the other hand, now it seems we have slight Y direction unit manipulation and a bunch in X. Anyone can correct me if I am wrong but that is what I am understanding.

EDIT: I should clarify. What I was indicating in the above post was that modifying the angle should be more intuitive than just modifying a single component.

 

[Locke 06]

Precisely, mathematically that is what makes sense. However, it seems like before we only had influence in the Y directions and not so much in the X; that is how I had understood it after debating it in the Vectoring thread and people pointing it out to me multiple times. On the other hand, now it seems we have slight Y direction unit manipulation and a bunch in X. Anyone can correct me if I am wrong but that is what I am understanding.

So vectoring was scaled differently between our X and Y coordinates? Or rather, our vector that we added was 3Dy+Dx where D is the direction of the control stick that you hold. That still makes more sense than not being able to modify magnitude at all. Sorry, I missed the Vectoring thread. If needed we can take this to a PM so that it doesn't clutter this thread. ^^;

 

[DeLux]

Vectoring is a really bad mechanic. People get upset about L-canceling because it's always the right choice and is only valuable as a single player challenge... granted, but vectoring is always the right choice and adds no challenge whatsoever! It just reduces comboability and makes stocks drag on forever for no effort. Even if you somehow like the results of vectoring, shouldn't it just be automatic?

At least DI made you think a little and provided mixups and there was such a thing as doing it wrong.

This is a very shallow examination of vectoring. Vectoring provided mixups of both direction and magnitude/knockback, while trajectory DI provides mixups of only direction. It brings significantly more depth than you can give credit.

 

[ミスティック Speed]

So wait...there's no DI or Vectoring any more....? o.o

 

[NightKev]

Considering this patch fixes the weird Wario vectoring bug (aka "wectoring"), maybe this is a bug caused by the "fix"? Everything might be back to normal in the next patch.

 

[deepseadiva]

Sensationalist title is sensationalist

 

[DanGR]

I ran a bunch of tests and I now know WHAT inputs are optimal for surviving 45 degree knockback, buuut I've no clue why.

Used:

• motion sensor bomb (45 degree angle knockback)
• sheik/marth/lucario/dk/ganon/charizard
• fd

Method: (Thanks for the idea, @ Remzi )
Roll to LEFT corner, create the bomb, hit the bomb with an attack, input a direction+variables. I then tested how long I could survive by manipulating combinations of ALL of these variables:

• control stick direction
• holding control stick before knockback
• holding control stick mid-way through knockback
• holding control stick after hitstun wears off
• aerials
• jumping
• fast falling
• crouching
• attack used to destroy bomb (dtilt, ftilt, special, smash attack)

Here are my findings:
Keep in mind my findings aren't entirely inclusive. There are exceptions, including Charizard who I'll mention at the end.

The best way to survive a 45 degree angled knockback is to hold directly towards the stage (in this case, right) and spam the A button if you have a quick f-air (OR spam jump, but I saw no noticeable difference in survivability, so don't waste your second jump). No, I don't know what characteristics the f-air needs to have. I chose f-airs who come out relatively quickly and can autocancel after a SH. Sheik, Marth, Lucario were the "quick" ones in my experiment.

If you have have a slow f-air, it's best to hold towards the stage (in this case, right), and spam jump to get maximum survivability. Again, no, I don't know exactly what characteristics the f-air needs to have to be considered "slow." I chose f-airs whose hitboxes don't come out quickly. The "slow" f-airs in my experiment were dk and ganon.

For the "slow" f-airs, there was about a 1% difference in survivability between spamming forward+"A", and spamming forward+jump. At very high percents that 1% will turn into 2-3% difference in survivability because in my experiment I was only dealing with 55~69%. That in mind, you may just want hold towards the stage and spam "A" anyways to increase your chances of not being gimped after surviving the knockback. This means you would take the risk that you might die spamming "A" when spamming jump could have made you live by 2-3%.

Note: For anyone that wants to try to find out exactly what characteristics make "quick" f-airs = jumping > "slow" f-airs, take a look at Charizard who survives longer by spamming jump even though he's got a "quick" f-air by my definition used earlier.