Dawn of a New Day: Vectoring (Mostly) Removed in Patch 1.0.4

[LightLV]

So TL;DR....vertical KOs are more reliable now?

If so, that's a good thing. I guess...? Top blast zones seemed to be the only ones not ******** in this game anyway.

 

[leafgreen386]

I think I may have posted this in the wrong thread:


edit:Oh wait it made its way here thats good =]

Yeah, those images are a lot handier than having to go in and watch the video over and over. lol

You can pretty clearly see how jiggs is almost perfectly aligned with the squiggly sand forking off in the background on left, down-left, and up-left (barring some small differences, which seem to be animation-based). This is in favor of a vectoring explanation for the purposes of horizontal knockback. However, this means that the knockback increase/decrease seen by holding *just* up/down respectively is not taking effect during a diagonal press. Or if it is, it's manifesting in a very strange way.

If this difference between diagonal and cardinal presses continues to be seen in other moves, there may be some very unique cases in this game where holding just up/down could be preferable to holding a diagonal, although I expect these to be quite rare.

Heres Thinkaman's moveset info that has launch angles,
http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8

Oh wow, I didn't know we had actual game dumps for hitbox data for this game. Nice. Seems the data is formatted a bit differently this time around.

If we could get some comparisons with the true 45 degree angle moves to see if they act the same as the sakurai angle, that would go a long way to determining if the properties observed on bowser's fsmash are unique to the sakurai angle, or if it's just a product of the angle of launch.

 

[K1seki]

You know, I've been thinking of something after watching NinjaLink's video.

What if vectoring was changed in 1.0.4 to look something like this?

I put a lot of questions here because I'm unable to test this myself, as I am busy recording old replays and haven't downloaded the update yet. Can someone test this for me to see if it works this way now?

 

[RE-DAZ]

You know, I've been thinking of something after watching NinjaLink's video.

What if vectoring was changed in 1.0.4 to look something like this?

I put a lot of questions here because I'm unable to test this myself, as I am busy recording old replays and haven't downloaded the update yet. Can someone test this for me to see if it works this way now?

So ****ing brilliant, sorry i can't test it.
This was supposed to be vectoring like, or almost.
But it doesnt fit for me that just horizontal vectoring is working

 

[Tagxy]

Vectoring has always been directed solely by the up and down direction on the joystick, even for horizontal knockback increases.

 

[videogameprof]

what's sakurai angle?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

what's sakurai angle?

As I understand it, the "Sakurai Angle" is a special knockback angle in the game code, namely 361 degrees. This is of course greater than the degrees in a circle and is equivalent to 1 degree if you're not fussy about how you get there, but the game gives it special treatment. At low percents, a move with the Sakurai Angle will push you back a bit but you won't go flying. At high percents, you get launched at a diagonal angle. I'm not sure where the threshold between the two is, though.

 

[warriorman222]

No, it doesn't.

If jigglypuff crouches, she actually takes much less knockback from Ganon f-tilt.

Zero knockback.

And zero damage.

THE TRUE CROUCH CANCELLING

... Shortly before jumping into his face and falling asleep on him.

 

[Terotrous]

You know, I've been thinking of something after watching NinjaLink's video.

What if vectoring was changed in 1.0.4 to look something like this?

I put a lot of questions here because I'm unable to test this myself, as I am busy recording old replays and haven't downloaded the update yet. Can someone test this for me to see if it works this way now?

This is almost how it used to work, except the range of possible points should be a circle. You get the maximum change in velocity by vectoring directly towards or away from your launch angle. If you vector at a different angle, you spend some of your vector to change the angle, so the velocity is not changed as much.

That made a fair bit of sense, but now I have no idea how the current system works.

 

[Lavani]

This is almost how it used to work, except the range of possible points should be a circle.

This is what you'd think, but @xx99's research resulted in some pretty different results:

Vectoring is weird.

 

[Azazel]

This is so bizarre. I wouldn't be surprised if Tilting circle pad has quirky results.

 

[GreenFlame]

It seems like those people who were petitioning vectoring to be removed got their wish...except now its even more confusing

Thanks Sakobama

In the news, reknowned game developer Masahiro Sakurai has changed his name to "Sakobama". It is unknown why Mr Sakobama has decided to do this, but many of his fans have just said "He's a troll, he does whatever he wants.".

2 days later:
In the news, Sakobama has changed his name yet again only a few days after changing his name to Sakobama. He has changed his name to "Sakutroll", and has recently told fans that Vectoring will be returning in 1.0.5 but everyone will be able to use their own form of Wectoring now, and that all of the Ridley fans "may have an extra surprise" in Smash Bros. for Wii U.

1 day later:
Sakutroll has revealed that the extra surprise for Ridley fans he revealed earlier is a "great looking trophy for Ridley in Smash for Wii U". He has also stated that the real reason he cut the Ice Climbers was "because [he] felt like it", and that Vectoring in Smash has been changed to always stage-spike you if you press the wrong direction and that the right direction is random. He has also added random tripping to Smash 4, this time with an 80% chance of tripping upon any input.

 

[K1seki]

This is almost how it used to work, except the range of possible points should be a circle. You get the maximum change in velocity by vectoring directly towards or away from your launch angle. If you vector at a different angle, you spend some of your vector to change the angle, so the velocity is not changed as much.

That made a fair bit of sense, but now I have no idea how the current system works.

I'm very sure this wasn't how it worked before 1.0.4. If I recall correctly, it didn't matter what direction you were launched in 1.0.3 and before; you pretty much just had to hold towards the stage to survive (feel free to prove me wrong). The diagram I put up drew inspiration from NinjaLink's video. Parts of the angles at which Jigglypuff was sent at matches with parts of what I have drawn out.

 

[Rellekearth]

This is what you'd think, but @xx99's research resulted in some pretty different results:
Vectoring is weird.

I noticed that U, UL, L, and UR all have the same vertical position when they stop. Is that the top blast zone? Or is it where the knockback ends?

 

[Lavani]

I noticed that U, UL, L, and UR all have the same vertical position when they stop. Is that the top blast zone? Or is it where the knockback ends?

The latter.

Though U's a tad higher than UL/L, and UR's a tad higher than U.

 

[Rellekearth]

The latter.

Though U's a tad higher than UL/L, and UR's a tad higher than U.

Looking closer, you're right. But that is a rather interesting coincidence....

 

[LancerStaff]

No sudden C-Stick breakthroughs? Shame...

 

[leafgreen386]

You know, I've been thinking of something after watching NinjaLink's video.

What if vectoring was changed in 1.0.4 to look something like this?

I put a lot of questions here because I'm unable to test this myself, as I am busy recording old replays and haven't downloaded the update yet. Can someone test this for me to see if it works this way now?

This is a nice graphic of what would make sense, but the actual data seems to be contrary. I assume the yellow points are supposed to be just holding up or down, correct? The problem with the traditional DI interpretation here is that holding up actually resulted in jiggs flying further horizontally, and holding down resulted in flying less far, which doesn't seem to fit any of our current models. That is, there's a third factor at work here that is not just DI or vectoring (as we know it, anyway). Whether it's a glitch or an intended mechanic, there's some intervening variable here.

What we need is testing on non-sakurai angle moves, as well as more testing on the sakurai angle that doesn't go into the bubble (perhaps a larger stage would be better for this?). Going into the bubble makes it difficult to compare the distance things send, so any comparisons involving up are considerably less useful. Although, come to think of it, we can at least observe the differences between down-toward, down, and down-away in ninjalink's video (specifically looking at end-of-trajectory height). If someone doesn't beat me to it, I might do that tonight.

As I understand it, the "Sakurai Angle" is a special knockback angle in the game code, namely 361 degrees. This is of course greater than the degrees in a circle and is equivalent to 1 degree if you're not fussy about how you get there, but the game gives it special treatment. At low percents, a move with the Sakurai Angle will push you back a bit but you won't go flying. At high percents, you get launched at a diagonal angle. I'm not sure where the threshold between the two is, though.

To add to this, the actual angle of launch is variable, based on knockback. It scales up to a maximum of about 45 degrees on high knockback moves. I'm not sure if the threshold for the maximum angle is set at the tumble threshold or something higher, but zero gravity debug testing in brawl confirms that the angle of launch is lower at low percents, and it's not just a gravity illusion.

 

[Tagxy]

I actually think that picture is wrong, because it doesnt assume that holding down is he greatest way to reduce knockback which Im almost certain is true.

If someone could test the things I stated last page I feel confident I could provide a good theory on how things work now:

Heres Thinkaman's moveset info that has launch angles,
http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8
I would suggest testing the following way:

First - with high angled knockback that are not straight up with Pikabunz' method to see if there is any knockback influence at all for high angled but not completely vertical hits.
Second - if there is none, itll be a slow process to figure out at what angle we start to see knockback influence, test different angles to see which ones influence knockback until we can pin down a range, with suspicion being that it will begin at a lower angle.
Third - If there's two moves that have the same angle but one has KI and the other doesnt, we have a different issue
Fourth - Ditto if a move with a higher angle can have KI but a lower angle can not. In this case see if there's a lower end range on angle to the ability to influence knockback.

 

[murasakiame]

is there anything approaching consensus in this thread? if there is, it's hard to find...

 

[Seleir]

i dont understand nothyng can someone explain to me on skype or other else pls?

 

[Kenjin]

I'm not sure if someone stated that before, but you can still die earlier from a UP input, in case of a vertical launch.

Besides, Vectoring hasn't changed in case of horizontal ejections.

 

[K1seki]

This is a nice graphic of what would make sense, but the actual data seems to be contrary. I assume the yellow points are supposed to be just holding up or down, correct? The problem with the traditional DI interpretation here is that holding up actually resulted in jiggs flying further horizontally, and holding down resulted in flying less far, which doesn't seem to fit any of our current models. That is, there's a third factor at work here that is not just DI or vectoring (as we know it, anyway). Whether it's a glitch or an intended mechanic, there's some intervening variable here.

No, the white point is supposed to represent the Circle Pad, which remains upright regardless of the launch angle. I probably should have explained it better if I knew how.

I actually think that picture is wrong, because it doesnt assume that holding down is he greatest way to reduce knockback which Im almost certain is true.

The diagram was just a random guess on my part, so even I think it's not correct.

 

[sunset_raven]

So... From what was gathered so far, we should direct towards the stage when horizontally launched and left/right if vertically launched?

 

[Kenjin]

Exactly yes.

 

[JBarwick]

All of this makes me wonder if Vectoring and Vectoring were glitches.

Thoughts?

Seeing as they wanted to appeal to the competitive community in this game and as it destroyed the possibility of most combos it's a possibility it was a glitch. However multiple air dodges in my opinion still ruin a lot of the potential combos in the game and that's still in the game so I don't know .
Also seeing as it's so obvious it's more likely they saw it and didn't think it would do much to the gameplay (like they thought with wavedashing).

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

So is this true for the WiiU version I can't test it right now.

 

[Diabolical]

Where is the discussion on this? DI is the most important element of competitive Melee so I thought more people would actually care it's different in this game. Is Smash4 Vectoring still undefined as of now?

 

[GreenFlame]

Where is the discussion on this? DI is the most important element of competitive Melee so I thought more people would actually care it's different in this game. Is Smash4 Vectoring still undefined as of now?

People do care, but testing is hard...

Why even bother? lol jk

 

[erico9001]

The results of that testing with jigglypuff could be character specific due to her high air mobility. Things might be different for a character like Luigi. If somebody could do some testing with a less mobile character then we could compare the two for some answers.

 

[squaminator]

I tested myself and my conclusion was the the DI that's left is very minor, won't make a huge impact. The people above are correct, holding towards the stage is correct, and up or down depending on if you are worried about dying off the top. The thing you DON'T want to do is hold up as you get hit off the stage. That will make you die the quickest.

 

[Whiteface]

Could someone explain the one inch punch tech to me please? I tried looking for it.

 

[JJpalmer]

so if im knock horizotally would i hold left/right and if im knocked vertically would i hold down im trying to get a grasp on this ive never really understood DI no good smashers in my area sadly.

 

[Deadlybroth]

Could someone explain the one inch punch tech to me please? I tried looking for it.

It's this thread on the Mii Brawler boards. The first hit of Mii Brawler's third up-b, piston punch, has a large amount of set knockback, so the whole tech is basically a setup to abuse the first hit's knockback by making the second hit miss.

 

[ChillySundance]

multi-hit moves are still 'sticky' though, right? You can't just SDI out of every multi hit move by spazzing the stick like you could in melee, right? That's one of the best things about this version of smash and if I can't have melee level combos I at least want to feel content with multihit moves getting their KO hitboxes out reliably.

 

[SirIanAsh]

Can someone explain to me what to do now?
I'm still getting better at vectoring, and I want to know how it's changed, but in a simple way.

 

[ソチャラ「Sóchara 」]

Not great for people like me for whom Sm4sh is their first game and who don't have DI as muscle memory. Horrible.

 

[Diabolical]

You may need to finally change the tittle. Latest research says that Vectoring is still in the game, however nerfed and only affects horizontal directions. DI doesn't exist at all
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mMd8Puyhlk

 

[LancerStaff]

You may need to finally change the tittle. Latest research says that Vectoring is still in the game, however nerfed and only affects horizontal directions. DI doesn't exist at all
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mMd8Puyhlk

...Er, I thought we figured out pre-patch that Vectoring was only up and down, and DI still existed for sideways angles?

 

[Diabolical]

...Er, I thought we figured out pre-patch that Vectoring was only up and down, and DI still existed for sideways angles?

Vectoring has always been inconclusive, even back in 1.03 days. I still find the current title misleading if not outright incorrect because Vectoring is still in the game in some form, while no conclusive evidence suggests normal Melee DI at all