Dawn of a New Day: Vectoring (Mostly) Removed in Patch 1.0.4

[Rellekearth]

Yeah, that was my other thought. It could just be a flag set and we never noticed it until now. Without more data, it's hard to tell.

I also don't have the game to test any of this myself, unfortunately.

Can you VI/DI from a wall bounce? Like someone hits you into a wall (you don't tech). Can you change the angle at which you bounce off the wall?

If NOT, Ike's Bthrow may have properties of a wall bounce.

Also, I do not own the 3ds version so I can only go based on what you guys put together data-wise.

So in a diagonal to the side of the attack itself?

Yes

 

[NightKev]

Yeah, now I'm convinced this is a bug of some sort causing this inconsistent behavior, most likely due to whatever fix they implemented for Wario's vectoring bug. Welp, see you in 1.0.5, I hope it's rather soon.

 

[Tagxy]

Here are the key posts:

Best info on how it used to work:

I attempted to summarize what was known about vectoring before the change so people do not mistake old attributes for the new mechanic. Feel free to correct any errors, this is based on information and testing near the end of the old vectoring thread.

As far as I know based on that thread:
-Vectoring was the quality of adding or reducing knockback for a given hit.
-It was achieved by holding either up to add knockback or down to reduce knockback
-The closer to directly up/down of the joystick input the greater the affect vectoring had.
+Along with vertical trajectories, this also included horizontal trajectories that also increased/decreased in knockback with up/down.
+Left/Right had no affect on Vectoring
+The affect to horizontal vs vertical trajectories depended on the launch angle
+DI still existed alongside vectoring, though was less pronounced compared to previous games.

http://smashboards.com/threads/dawn...ed-in-patch-1-0-4.378709/page-4#post-18021425

Evidence of Vertical VI removal:

Ok I picked Mario, went on default mute city and walked onto the track holding different vertical inputs:

1.0.3
Up held: 98 Max launch speed
No input: 89 Max launch speed
Down held: 82 Max launch speed

1.0.4
Up held: 89 Max launch speed
No input: 89 Max launch speed
Down held: 89 Max launch speed

Don't know if this helps prove anything but I'm throwing it in there.

http://smashboards.com/threads/comm...ne-changes-to-di.378404/page-48#post-18019580

Evidence of Horizontal VI existence:

100% Mario VS Motion Sensor Bomb

1.0.0
No input - 172 launch speed
Holding up - 189
Holding down - 158

1.0.4
No input - 172
Holding up - 189
Holding down - 158

http://smashboards.com/threads/comm...ne-changes-to-di.378404/page-47#post-18018633

Image corroboration; all notes in color are mine:

Spoiler

I took screenshots to summarize the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YyNv2sar24&feature=youtu.be

Nothing

Standard



Set lets explain things from here on out:
Step 1: Account for angular changes in DI and where we would assume jiggs to be. Keep in mind perceived distance changes in this case are not actual distance changes as jiggs moves along a circle, where the radius would extend from Bower to Jiggs.

Step 2: Account for horizontal VI changes from holding up and down, keeping in mind that holding directly straight up and down achieves the greatest affect on VI as was the case in 1.02.

Up

Step 1: Greater Angle, one youd assume holding up for DI
Step 2: Greatest Distance

Up Right

Step 1: Virtually no change in angle, what youd assume holding up right for DI
Step 2: Greater knockback but less then holding straight up

Right

Step 1: More shallow angle, what youd assume holding right for DI
Step 2: No distance change

Down Right

Step 1: More Shallow Angle, what youd expect holding down right
Step 2: knockback reduction? (inconclusive)

Down

Step 1: Most shallow Angle, what youd expect holding down
Step 2: Greatest reduction in knockback

Down Left

Step 1: Virtually no change in angle, what youd expect holding down left
Step 2: Decreased knockback, but not as significant as straight down once the difference in angle from down is considered.

Left

Step 1: Greater angle, slight changed youd expect from holding left
Step 2: No significant change in knockback


Up Left

Step 1: Greater Angle, what youd consider from holding up left
Step 2: Greater Knockback, however hard to compare to straight up



If Im reading too far into these or seem to be mistaken feel free to call it out.
Now back to the normal users comments:
Order in terms of horizontal distance:
Up Left~Left<Down Left<Down<Nothing<Down Right<Right<Up Right<Up

General trend:
-Left is better
-Down is better.
-Up is not bad in the case of pressing left, but is bad in the case that you are not. Unless, of course, you want to go high, in which case do up left
-Right is not good all around

Something one person in the video was saying is that he thought jiggly was flying faster when it was tilted up. This makes sense with this launch speed data:

So I think it's determined by a combo of things: VI, DI, and launch speed. Launch speed is increased when you hold up and decreased when holding down. Perhaps this was added to decrease the effects of DI. I'm still having trouble figuring out how this all fits together though, and I need to go to bed =].

http://smashboards.com/threads/comm...ne-changes-to-di.378404/page-50#post-18021510

 

[Speculator]

Now is a great time for someone to explain traditional DI to me. It is just about attacking in a certain direction in order to negate knockback? I never understood how to perform it in past Smash games.

 

[otter]

Now is a great time for someone to explain traditional DI to me. It is just about attacking in a certain direction in order to negate knockback? I never understood how to perform it in past Smash games.

In other Smash games you could not control the distance of your knockback, but you could "steer" your character perpendicularly in hopes of going the same distance without reaching a blast zone. So, if you were traveling towards the left blast zone, you could hold up or down in order to fly up/left or down/left.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

So at the very least, there's no vertical vectoring. THATS WHY ZERO SUIT'S DTHROW IS COMBOING SO MUCH EASIER.

Awesome

This is true. There is vectoring, but only against attacks that launch you horizontally. Attacks that launch you vertically cannot be vectored.

 

[videogameprof]

Is anyone reminded of pinball? Couldn't a person tilt the machine? To manipulate the ball to go somewhere? For some reason this reminds me of that. Imagine the flippers are the smasher and the ball is the victim. Wouldn't that explain the weird behavior? you could tilt from side to side, but you couldn't tilt vertically because there was usually a wall or another machine behind it. that would explain why holding up and down does nothing on a vertical launch. it may not exactly fit, but it seems awfully similar to me. aehh.... probably speaking out of my rump.

someone said something about a trapezoid on this thread. well doesn't a pinball machine look like that from a player's perspective? eh... maybe not... its pretty late right now. I'm turnin in.

 

[Nonon]

Now is a great time for someone to explain traditional DI to me. It is just about attacking in a certain direction in order to negate knockback? I never understood how to perform it in past Smash games.

Aim for the corner.

 

[Lichi]

So while I personally feel tempted to sing Ode to Joy, I still have a question.
Vertical vectoring is removed. Horizontal vectoring is still in. Where is the line? Does any part of horizontal movement enable vectoring? Does your angle you are launched at have any impact on vectoring now?

 

[Pazx]

How certain are we that horizontal vectoring is still in the game and it's not just people continuing to hold towards the stage AFTER the hit and thus accelerating towards the stage?

Also: IT IS TIME

 

[Skylit]

I have no valuable input in this, but I have noticed that Fox's fair into uair connects more often. I don't know if that has to do with the removal of vertical vectoring or a change to Fox himself.

But damn, the smash community is full of hard dedicated workers. Who needs release notes amirighht? eh? eh? It's like Sakurai is saying "if I can't get a break, NOBODY CAN".

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Okay so how about we run a few tests? Can we get the knockback comparison of 1.0.3 to 1.0.4 of a lighter hitting vertical attack, something like Mario Utilt, with holding up (and/or pressing up after getting hit), down, LEFT, and RIGHT (include angles for the left/right pl0x)? I think that will give us an idea of what the new rules are for this system for non-survival angling.

In addition, what is the most 45 degree angle knockback we know of? It seems like "vertical vectoring" no longer works for STRAIGHT UP sending attacks... but what attacks are considered straight up vs slightly angled? Is there a certain degree difference from the 90 degrees perpendicular to the stage that the game all of a sudden allows vertical vectoring?

There are a LOT of unanswered questions about this system, we have barely scratched the surface.

The quick answers we need confirmed are:
1. What is the ideal survival DI for a vertical and horizontal knockback?
2. What is the ideal escape DI for low percent combos (if there is any).

The answers to those questions are vital to competitive play. The rest of the system we can take our time to fully define.

 

[Revven]

Yeah, now I'm convinced this is a bug of some sort causing this inconsistent behavior, most likely due to whatever fix they implemented for Wario's vectoring bug. Welp, see you in 1.0.5, I hope it's rather soon.

Wario's bug was clearly addressed independent of this change for vectoring, just like many of the other character-specific "tech" that was taken out in this patch. If they were really that incompetent at programming I think the game would have far more unintended bugs than we discovered in the first month.

In other words, you're really reaching.

 

[LinkNIvy]

Certainly a welcome change in my book. Now it'll be much easier for people to switch between smash games without having to adjust for the nonsense that was vectoring.

Oh, and no more horribly useless VI/DI naming debates. That stuff hurt my brain

The no longer hearing people call it vectoring is the thing I like most about this

 

[LancerStaff]

The no longer hearing people call it vectoring is the thing I like most about this

Yeah, now it's Wumboing.

 

[Jabejazz]

Yeah, now it's Wumboing.

All my years of studying Wombology are about to pay off.

 

[Terotrous]

I'm just going to randomly spin the stick and mash buttons after being hit and hope good things happen. It appears that's the direction they want the game to go in.

 

[erico9001]

I think I may have posted this in the wrong thread:

I took screenshots to summarize the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YyNv2sar24&feature=youtu.be

Nothing

Up

Up Right

Right

Down Right

Down

Down Left

Left

Up Left

Order in terms of horizontal distance:
Up Left~Left<Down Left<Down<Nothing<Down Right<Right<Up Right<Up

General trend:
-Left is better
-Down is better.
-Up is not bad in the case of pressing left, but is bad in the case that you are not. Unless, of course, you want to go high, in which case do up left
-Right is not good all around

Something one person in the video was saying is that he thought jiggly was flying faster when it was tilted up. This makes sense with this launch speed data:

So I think it's determined by a combo of things: VI, DI, and launch speed. Launch speed is increased when you hold up and decreased when holding down. Perhaps this was added to decrease the effects of DI. I'm still having trouble figuring out how this all fits together though, and I need to go to bed =].

edit:Oh wait it made its way here thats good =]

Here are the key posts:

Best info on how it used to work:

http://smashboards.com/threads/dawn...ed-in-patch-1-0-4.378709/page-4#post-18021425

Evidence of Vertical VI removal:

http://smashboards.com/threads/comm...ne-changes-to-di.378404/page-48#post-18019580

Evidence of Horizontal VI existence:

http://smashboards.com/threads/comm...ne-changes-to-di.378404/page-47#post-18018633

Image corroboration; all notes in color are mine:

http://smashboards.com/threads/comm...ne-changes-to-di.378404/page-50#post-18021510

 

[Weeman]

I'm just going to randomly spin the stick and mash buttons after being hit and hope good things happen. It appears that's the direction they want the game to go in.

... What?

 

[Gawain]

So that's why raptor boost was killing so much earlier lately. This is good, I've noticed that I can true combo knee kills from dthrow even easier than I could before as well.

 

[Terotrous]

... What?

Sarcasm.

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

Can somebody explain in layman terms what's going on with the mechanics now?

If read correctly I hold left or right if I'm flying upwards, and hold up/down towards a corner if I'm flying left or right like in previous games, instead of just holding towards the stage/away from attacks?

My memory is a bit foggy on DI, but that's how I used to do it in previous smashes. I think...?

 

[Rellekearth]

Can somebody explain in layman terms what's going on with the mechanics now?

If read correctly I hold left or right if I'm flying upwards, and hold up towards a corner if I'm flying left or right like in previous games, instead of just holding towards the stage/away from attacks?

My memory is a bit foggy on DI.

Your grammar on that question confused me but I think I know what you mean. But here's an easy guide:

Flying up: Hold left or right
Flying diagonal: Hold down and right/left (towards the stage)
Flying horizontal: Do not hold up.

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

Your grammar on that question confused me but I think I know what you mean. But here's an easy guide:

Flying up: Hold left or right
Flying diagonal: Hold down and right/left (towards the stage)
Flying horizontal: Do not hold up.

Sorry for the grammar, typing from my phone, also thanks.

 

[Loki]

Well, given the uncertainity and the confusion there is regarding this, I will as well just keep on pressing inwards the stage for the time being. Either for placebo or for it still working.

 

[RE-DAZ]

What happened to vectoring after the last update, could some explain me?

 

[Jabejazz]

Vectoring crossed the road of patch 1.0.4, got hit by a truck. The hit send him upwards, he tried vectoring, didn't do ****. Died via the blast zone.

RIP Vectoring. September 2014-November 2014.

 

[RE-DAZ]

I was so sure it was working some minutes ago in for glory or its just that shulk in SHIELD mode is invincible.

 

[guedes the brawler]

Certainly a welcome change in my book. Now it'll be much easier for people to switch between smash games without having to adjust for the nonsense that was vectoring.

Oh, and no more horribly useless VI/DI naming debates. That stuff hurt my brain

i'd say that vectoring made much more sense than DI from a mechanical perspective.

 

[Terotrous]

To be honest DI should have been called Rotating, because that's what you do (you rotate your trajectory), but it's way too late to change that now.

It does help to think of it like that, though, it makes which way you have to press on the stick a lot more intuitive.

 

[Tagxy]

Okay so how about we run a few tests? Can we get the knockback comparison of 1.0.3 to 1.0.4 of a lighter hitting vertical attack, something like Mario Utilt, with holding up (and/or pressing up after getting hit), down, LEFT, and RIGHT (include angles for the left/right pl0x)? I think that will give us an idea of what the new rules are for this system for non-survival angling.

In addition, what is the most 45 degree angle knockback we know of? It seems like "vertical vectoring" no longer works for STRAIGHT UP sending attacks... but what attacks are considered straight up vs slightly angled? Is there a certain degree difference from the 90 degrees perpendicular to the stage that the game all of a sudden allows vertical vectoring?

There are a LOT of unanswered questions about this system, we have barely scratched the surface.

The quick answers we need confirmed are:
1. What is the ideal survival DI for a vertical and horizontal knockback?
2. What is the ideal escape DI for low percent combos (if there is any).

The answers to those questions are vital to competitive play. The rest of the system we can take our time to fully define.

I believe those answers cant be given until we better understand how this works. My suspicion is that unless an attack has absolutely no horizontal movement, it should still be affected by horizontal vectoring. Albeit to a much smaller degree for something thats already slipped passed us. However, this could be wrong.

Heres Thinkaman's moveset info that has launch angles,
http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8
I would suggest testing the following way:

First - with high angled knockback that are not straight up with Pikabunz' method to see if there is any knockback influence at all for high angled but not completely vertical hits.
Second - if there is none, itll be a slow process to figure out at what angle we start to see knockback influence, test different angles to see which ones influence knockback until we can pin down a range, with suspicion being that it will begin at a lower angle.
Third - If there's two moves that have the same angle but one has KI and the other doesnt, we have a different issue
Fourth - Ditto if a move with a higher angle can have KI but a lower angle can not. In this case see if there's a lower end range on angle to the ability to influence knockback.


Ike's Bthrow is a 28 degree angle. Id suggest testing this one since it caused weird things before. Could be since its a throw?

45 Degree angles Panda asked for:
Peach's fthrow
Pacmans dtilt
Marth's Dash attack
Luigi Low Fsmash
DDD Dtilt
Pikachu Fsmash (normal? not sure what that meant)

Good luck testers.

 

[Seleir]

so guys now i must do di like brawl and not vectoring right. also for reduce knockback just hold down right?

 

[TheZage]

You know... we have been testing di and vectoring( or lack there of) on lighter characters, but did anyone try testing heavy characters? Could it be possible that vectoring is still around on heavy characters? If so, that would be a welcome balance and buff for the "tank" characters that normally serve as combo punching bags.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Came to the thread to be enlightened.

Came out mind****ed.

You shall pay for this Sakurai

 

[aethermaster]

It seems like those people who were petitioning vectoring to be removed got their wish...except now its even more confusing

Thanks Sakobama

 

[Gawain]

I'm Just glad that I dont have to hear the word vectoring in regards to smash anymore. I always hated that term, it was a horrible choice.

 

[smasher1001]

i would prefer no form of di/vi compared to really hard to understand vi/di. both were intuitive in thier own ways, the key thing is if we can control our launch trajectory it needs to be consistent and understandable.

 

[Moon Monkey]

I'm Just glad that I dont have to hear the word vectoring in regards to smash anymore. I always hated that term, it was a horrible choice.

Made me feel like i was back in math class.

 

[Shataraterevar]

i would prefer no form of di/vi compared to really hard to understand vi/di. both were intuitive in thier own ways, the key thing is if we can control our launch trajectory it needs to be consistent and understandable.

Well from what i understand what happened it is simple:
If you are knocked up you cannot mitigate the knockback (at least not very much, you can only try to steer right or left a little)
If you are knocked horizontaly you can mitigate the knockback (and it's still intuitive by holding opposite direction)

It's not that obscured, the obscurity of this is the result of the change that happened and wasn't officialy described anywhere, so we have to check it ourselves and it takes time and also mistakes/misinformation will spread, that is just the nature of the proces (official patch notes -_- sadly probably will never happen)

 

[Woken up by bacon]

I was so sure it was working some minutes ago in for glory or its just that shulk in SHIELD mode is invincible.

Shield Shulk has the highest weight in the game. By quite a bit.