Dawn of a New Day: Vectoring (Mostly) Removed in Patch 1.0.4

[Asdioh]

I'm more blown away by the knowledge that crouch canceling is in the game. Wasn't it not in Brawl, or at least insignificant? Seems weird it would skip a game and then return?

The wikis don't mention anything about it in smash4. Someone should explain how strong it is to the best of their knowledge to make sure the people testing these changes take it into consideration :3

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Patches! Crazy, huh. We got nerfs to the suspected top tiers, buffs to the suspected low tiers, and lots of bugs fixed. A great time for everyone.

Oh, and vectoring was removed.

Oh, and vectoring was removed.

Vectoring was removed.

 

[SuaveChaser]

wow this is crazy.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

We just tested with bowsers fsmash against jiggs. Got varying distances holding each direction. Holding towards bowser was shorter and away sent further.

This is predominantly a horizontal kb right? Maybe we have some sort of awkward bastardization of VI and DI with vertical vs horizontal knockbacks?

 

[Jaxas]

I'm more blown away by the knowledge that crouch canceling is in the game. Wasn't it not in Brawl, or at least insignificant? Seems weird it would skip a game and then return?

The wikis don't mention anything about it in smash4. Someone should explain how strong it is to the best of their knowledge to make sure the people testing these changes take it into consideration :3

Yeah, it wasn't in Brawl.

It's strong enough that when I (a Brawl player who didn't know crouch cancelling was a thing) was testing Vectoring in the original thread, I thought that it was VI allowing people to live almost an extra 50% when hit.
Turns out it was crouch cancelling.

So basically, it's really strong but doesn't stop hitstun, so I'm not sure what uses it has (why crouch when you can shield, basically).

 

[xDD-Master]

I cant believe what I am reading... THIS CANT BE TRUE

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

 

[Locuan]

There can only be one of us Thinkaman

Wait, so who's assistant am I now? CERN why are you doing this?

On another note, so DI is weaker than what it was in previous games?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

This is predominantly a horizontal kb right? Maybe we have some sort of awkward *******ization of VI and DI with vertical vs horizontal knockbacks?

This is going to be a pain in the arse to explain to people.

 

[LordFluffy]

From what i'm seeing myself, DI IS there, i'm seeing differences in the angle of launch, but its nearly worthless for your overall survival potential. 2-7% depending on your character's weight at most.

 

[SonicZeroX]

I just realized this is pretty much a Lucario nerf. Maybe that's why they didn't touch his aura.

 

[Thinkaman]

Me and Ampharos just tests Ganon u-smash and f-tilt online.

Holding down did not change the kill % of u-smash on FD. (~75%) However, holding to the side did, slightly.

Holding in did not change the kill % of f-tilt from the ledge. (~85%)

Currently testing holding up and down on Ganon f-tilt.

 

[SuperHyperMegaTurbo]

WAIT. THIS IS REAL?
And I thought people were joking around.

Well, it looks like vectoring possibly was reduced in effectiveness, not entirely removed, based on the results in the OP.
Basically almost no effect for the gooey bomb, but still a little bit... and DK getting hit with a blast box still has vector influence, it would seem.
But, zero effect for the Mute City track (maybe some hits are un-vectorable).

And DI exists now.
The question is... did it before, or was it useless compared to the powerful vectoring?
Well, the angle test for the Mute City track in the OP indicates... it probably existed, it was just pretty weak.
It didn't get stronger, but you know, vectoring got like 95% nerfed, so now it's useful.

 

[Jackson]

So... do we DI perpendicular like in Melee now?

 

[LancerStaff]

All I want to know is what direction you have to press for what now.

 

[Asdioh]

Me and Ampharos just tests Ganon u-smash and f-tilt online.

Holding down did not change the kill % of u-smash on FD. (~75%) However, holding to the side did, slightly.

Holding in did not change the kill % of f-tilt from the ledge. (~85%)

Currently testing holding up and down on Ganon f-tilt.

Does "holding down" include crouch canceling?

:sakurai:

 

[Weeman]

Thank you biased Thinkconfirmman! However i still don't get something, is traditional DI back as well then? Or was it already in the game?

 

[Thinkaman]

Does "holding down" include crouch canceling?

:sakurai:

No, it doesn't.

If jigglypuff crouches, she actually takes much less knockback from Ganon f-tilt.

Zero knockback.

And zero damage.

THE TRUE CROUCH CANCELLING

 

[Remzi]

Posted this in the other thread:

Ok..... so:

I set up a test by rolling to the edge of FD with Charizard, spawning a motion sensor bomb in front of me, and jabbing it.

I've recorded the percent at which he dies off of the closer blast zone.

No Directional Input: Dies at 59
Holding Right: Dies at 66
Holding Up: Dies at 58
Holding Down: Dies at 61


I'm very, very confused.

Based on these results, whatever it is that we have does NOT behave like Brawl/Melee DI. In this case, holding down increased my survivability, in Brawl, I would have died substantially earlier holding down than I would have if I didn't input a direction at all.

I'm not really sure whats at work here, but it feels like substantially weaker vectoring.

 

[Thinkaman]

Well, the vertical component is 0.

I am testing doc d-throw with AA atm, and we're getting no difference between holding up, down, and nothing.

 

[PK Gaming]

So what you're saying is:

Muhahahahaha

 

[Greward]

I tested and Villager dies at 83% against Mega Man's uptilt with no DI and at 86% doing it, so the difference is small.
But Link dies at 47% against the gooey bomb with no DI and i can survive up to 65% if I DI.
So maybe DI is just very weak on surviving against attacks that send you vertically, and stronger on attacks that send you horizontally.

 

[NinjaLink]

I'm uploading a video showing what happens holding different directions. Take what you will from it cause things dont seem....right.

Whenever it processes but from what I just retested but its definitely odd.

Upleft sends the least distance which makes sense but straight up seems to nearly kill me more than any other direction. Its definitely not normal angular DI and its not exactly vectoring either. There has to be another rule in play here.

 

[Remzi]

So at the very least, there's no vertical vectoring. THATS WHY ZERO SUIT'S DTHROW IS COMBOING SO MUCH EASIER.

Awesome

 

[NinjaLink]

Oh vertical DEFINITELY matters. Check the video i just uploaded.

 

[Thinkaman]

Oh vertical DEFINITELY matters. Check the video i just uploaded.

I think he meant on vertical knockback, which is correct.

@ NinjaLink me and AA are getting similarly bizarre results with Ganon d-tilt and Ike b-throw.

 

[Delzethin]

I don't know how good of an idea this is. If you take away survival options, you can lead into a metagame that once again favors fast movement and comboability over everything else.

Even those of you who liked Melee's flashiness must realize an overcentalized metagame is a bad one, right?

 

[Weeman]

I don't know how good of an idea this is. If you take away survival options, you can lead into a metagame that once again favors fast movement and comboability over everything else.

Even those of you who liked Melee's flashiness must realize an overcentalized metagame is a bad one, right?

Man, the blasts zones are really far away, most people will still be living over the 130s, and even without vectoring this game's true combos never really pass 3 or 4 hits, so most strings still rely on readings or tech chases, not to mention the characters don't fall faster or anything.
So explain how would this change make this game closer to a Melee-like metagame?

 

[Revven]

I don't know how good of an idea this is. If you take away survival options, you can lead into a metagame that once again favors fast movement and comboability over everything else.

Even those of you who liked Melee's flashiness must realize an overcentalized metagame is a bad one, right?

You act like Melee doesn't have any shift in momentum at all or any slower paced MUs that fall back on the defensive mechanics that are still very viable in that game. A meta centralized around offense is better than a defensive one by far -- I'd like for a balanced one between offense and defense but if we can't get that I'll take offense over defense thank you very much.

 

[Thinkaman]

Thank God. I was really worried no one would bring up Melee in this topic, but it seems I can rest easy.

 

[popsofctown]

Ugh. Vectoring was intuitive. Why do we need an unintuitive barrier for new players?

 

[DeLux]

Just going to throw out speculation but at least in Brawl surviving -

Vertical kills were a function of the launch angle (creating a longer distance from point of impact to blast zone) and momentum cancelling (via the fastfall acceleration working as a deaccelration on the vertical knockback, explaining why characters with absurd FF accelerations had greater variance between no momentum cancelling death and momentum cancelling death).

Horizontal kills were a function of the launch angle (again creating a longer distance from point of impact to the blast zone) and aerial deacceleration rates (which was usually aerial acceleration + a boost for certain characters iirc).

I'd suggest that in order to remove variables, perhaps how long one holds the circle pad away from the blast zone after a horizontal hit ought to be standardized to 0 or held the entire time.
It might explain the variance for horizontal shenanigans and the lack of variance for vertical knockback (since hit stun cancelling aerial FF's aren't a factor in this game).

 

[IzE]

Wasn't it with VI systems that diagonal inputs weren't registered correctly, but instead the game registered both inputs as equally pressed at the same time? Would this cause any diffusion when going from VI to DI?

 

[Thinkaman]

Ugh. Vectoring was intuitive. Why do we need an unintuitive barrier for new players?

Well, I always found altering the angle to be more intuitive, and was always confused by people who wanted to hold in. But, I can understand why they'd think that, and recognize that it's a majority decision.

Something something about recognizing the council's decision and choosing to ignore it.

 

[DeLux]

Nintendo probably removed it because we didn't name the mechanic after a community member, so there were no egos to step on.

 

[Thinkaman]

Nintendo probably removed it because we didn't name the mechanic after a community member, so there were no egos to step on.

But they basically removed DeLux Cancelling!

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Im lost VI is diminished or completely out.
Am I holding Perpendicular, Parallel, Diagonal, upside down, right-side up, loop-de-loop or merry-go-round
to not die? What is the consensus?

 

[popsofctown]

Delux cancelling got removed tho.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Nintendo probably removed it because we didn't name the mechanic after a community member, so there were no egos to step on.

Objection, the "One Inch Punch" tech is still in and it is not named after anyone specific.

On the topic of that, can Jiggs still survive from a one inch punch? Or was that already tested? What about regular piston punch? Will that kill early now despite the lack of vectoring?

 

[Khao]

I'm super surprised at this, I was sure that this **** was here to stay. I actually think it was really intuitive and thought it was better in some ways, but I don't mind it being gone, really.

It's just weird that they'd make such a direct adjustment to an old mechanic and then go back.

At least I'll never see the name "vectoring" once again, I still think that's awful, haha.

 

[DeLux]

Just going to throw out speculation but at least in Brawl surviving -

Vertical kills were a function of the launch angle (creating a longer distance from point of impact to blast zone) and momentum cancelling (via the fastfall acceleration working as a deaccelration on the vertical knockback, explaining why characters with absurd FF accelerations had greater variance between no momentum cancelling death and momentum cancelling death).

Horizontal kills were a function of the launch angle (again creating a longer distance from point of impact to the blast zone) and aerial deacceleration rates (which was usually aerial acceleration + a boost for certain characters iirc).

I'd suggest that in order to remove variables, perhaps how long one holds the circle pad away from the blast zone after a horizontal hit ought to be standardized to 0 or held the entire time.
It might explain the variance for horizontal shenanigans and the lack of variance for vertical knockback (since hit stun cancelling aerial FF's aren't a factor in this game).

@Thinkaman's Girlfriend test please


edit: @ Thinkaman LOL why is there a thinkaman's Girlfriend dying