BrawlLover
Smash Champion
YAR WIND OwL ALL DaY EVERY SINGLE WINDY DAY! OWL!
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Crushing the Competitive Spirit
- Thread starter Jam Stunna
- Start date
WooICYU
Smash Journeyman
It's to my understanding, that in Melee, you can also play with other People too! What gives?
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
the thing is, you can play brawrl with lag and not see the person
No, no one gives a crap if you CAN wavedash.
Calling it a glitch, hack, whatever, on the other hand...that's where you're a noob.
You're like, the stereotypical '08er Brawl n00b. If it weren't so pathetic it'd almost be funny. You speak as if you're this authority who is right. If you think your non-existent mad skills and intelligence are so superior to everyone else's here, just leave.
Not to mention that your definition of hack/glitch/exploitation ("it wasn't intentionally put there") would define a LOT of awesome things in video games as that. There's a hell of a lot of sequence breaking that's not intentional in Super Metroid. Yet if we just said "ZOMG HAXXOR!" and never used it, how much fun would it be? Still very fun, but not quite as challenging and possessing much less replay value.
Not that I actually imagine I'll get through to you, but it's worth a shot anyways.
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
yeah johnathan, don't be like me bra!
Witchking_of_Angmar
Smash Lord
Lol. Hax? It's not like we changed any code here, like people have to do with Brawl to make it even semi-decent. I think so many people are unclear of the meaning of the word "exploitation". An exploit is a completely natural (not a glitch) result of the physics engine. That's it. It has nothing to do with a mistake in developement, it has nothing to do with glitches, it has nothing to do with cheating. Hating on wavedashing is equivalent to hating on Melee's physics engine.
Mr. Rogu
Smash Ace
i stopped reading after he said "i specifically bought a wii for this game." when you buy a new system, you gotta make sure theres at least like 5-7 games you want for it, otherwise its a complete waste of money.
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL, exactly bra, that's what i was thinking mi ritE!? i mean cmon!
Gerudo Dragon
Smash Journeyman
I agree. My main is MetaKnight, despite my name being one of Ganondorf's specials. Back in Melee, G-dorf was my main. He's one of my immediate secondaries in Brawl..
But my point is that I agree completely. I hate how people want to ban Meta.. no one banned Fox or Sheik, but I still found a way to fight them in Melee and come out on top. I also agree on how much Brawl is easier than Melee. With Brawl, it's all about finding the best character to be cheap with and being the best at doing so! I have this, sorry, HAD, this one friend who spammed Ike like a b****, and gloated on how amazingly awesome he is. He told me that he could bet to eat **** that his little sister could beat me. I simply replied, "Of course she could! Brawl's physics engine and entire programming was created so that little kids can be insta-pros, just like you!"
I've learned one thing aout Brawl; there is ONE way to see a good player and a bad one. A good player will fight with honor, and won't exploit the cheapness of characters. Bad players will just show how noob-ish they really are and jump into the most used strategies bandwaggon to win. These people, such as my former friend, are the reason behin the whole MetaKnight ban debate. People are too whiny and lazy to suck it up and find honorable ways to beat down those ****tard cheapsters. I can assure you, I'm one MetaKnight user who's not invincible with him, that is for sure.
However, being a Hardcore fan that I am, I can't go against that. I know it sucks compared to its predessesor, and I know how terrible it is in competitive tournaments. But I still love it, because it still provides me with hours of fun.
edit Also, it should be noted that Nintendo as a whole has begun selling us hardcore fans out. See, back in the Gamecube era, Nintendo favoured us and spoiled us with challenging games, but because most companies mainly make the big bucks off 3rd party support, Nintendo's CGN was concidered a horrible failure and abomination. So, to make sure that never happens again, Nintendo has now shifted to the other extreme of the table, now favouring 3rd party support over pleasing their loving fans. To make matters worse, Nintendo's new philosophy of brining new faces into the world of gaming, as wonderfull an idea as it is, has without a doubt contributed to the unfourtunate growth of the.. Casual Gamer population... these types are shallow gamers who mainly gravitate to anything easy and pleasing on the eye. They know nothing of loyalty or of its meaning, so I do hope that once Nintendo's flag begins to burn at some point in the far off future, they will look down and remember on who's shoulders they're standing on, on who to place thanks for their rising stardom today.
Basicly, Nintendo has decided to give us all the finger, and us being the hardcore nintendo supporters that we are, continue to bend over and take it like *****es. Go us.
cutter
Smash Champion
You should read my blog entitled "A Bungie Jump" to see my insight on this issue
Gerudo Dragon
Smash Journeyman
I believe I shall.
SynikaL
Smash Lord
There's a lot of things I don't like about Brawl, but the only thing that turns me away from the game completely is the auto-buffering system that creates a very real control issue. Being a technical Melee player, precision in controls is a fundamental necessity for me in Smash -- nay, any fighting game... any video game! Melee is lauded by the community and critics alike for its precise and polished gameplay mechanics! I just can't comprehend how this merit has been overlooked in Brawl!
I'm simply baffled that players haven't been complaining about it more, or it hasn't been mentioned in media reviews (It took weeks for it to even come up as a discussion, I realized it the moment I put my hands on the game). It almost makes me want to craft the absurd generalization that Brawl players don't recognize its effects simply because they're just that terrible with fighting games.
Having to consciously negate the effects of a sub-system that wrestles control out of the players' hands is terrible, no matter which way you cut it. Brawl just feels sloppy because of it.
It's like every character was chiseled out of bars of soap, animated and placed in an oil - slicked gladiator arena on a rainy day.
Ugh.
-Kimosabae
I'm simply baffled that players haven't been complaining about it more, or it hasn't been mentioned in media reviews (It took weeks for it to even come up as a discussion, I realized it the moment I put my hands on the game). It almost makes me want to craft the absurd generalization that Brawl players don't recognize its effects simply because they're just that terrible with fighting games.
Having to consciously negate the effects of a sub-system that wrestles control out of the players' hands is terrible, no matter which way you cut it. Brawl just feels sloppy because of it.
It's like every character was chiseled out of bars of soap, animated and placed in an oil - slicked gladiator arena on a rainy day.
Ugh.
-Kimosabae
I just noticed that I made a pretty significant error in the OP. This line is near the bottom:
It should read,
Johnny Pteran
Smash Journeyman
Why are you even defending Wavedashing, lol. We both know it wasn't how the game was meant to be played, and we both know it wasn't intentionally put there. It is what it is; a glitch in the physics of how the waveriding function worked.
And about your Super Metroid point. Super Metroid wasn't multiplayer, and Super Metroid wasn't played in tournament settings.
What a great movie.Jam, you sir, win...this goes out to you...
I didn't read the whole thing, but I got the gist...and I couldn't agree more...this is the reason I had my little smashy-smashy with my disc :B Sakurai gave us the finger, so I gave him the finger ^^;
<3 Citizen Kane,
Cinder
Smash Master
You act like it's a bad thing...
But that's how it IS played...
Okay then...what SHOULD have happened when you airdodged into the ground, then?
Glitch =/= exploit
And? His point is that if we just stopped using exploits like WD, it would slow down the gameplay...just because SM isn't multiplayer doesn't make it any less valid...
Johnny Pteran
Smash Journeyman
Which it is, because most players don't know how to do it, and players that DO exploit the glitch, get an advantage. Which is lame.
Doesn't make it right.
You airdodge into the ground and land on your feet. ... Makes sense to me?
You can exploit a glitch just fine. Which is what Wavedashing is.
The only thing slowing down the gameplay is if you stood still in one spot instead of playing the game. Because Super Metroid isn't multiplayer, you don't lose money if you don't use glitches, whereas in Melee, the other player got an unfair advantage if they wavedashed all over the place.
Cinder
Smash Master
Oh wah, it takes skill...big deal...since when did you have to play with people who know how? If you can't do it, don't play people who can...simple, no?
Who are you to judge ethics? There's nothing unethical or otherwise wrong with using the physics system to its full natural potential...
And stop cold on the ground? Mmmmmmmmmhmmmmmmmm...makes PEEEERRRRRFECT sense[/sarcasm]
It was the result of airdodging into the ground as programmed by the development team...they knew it was there, and didn't think it'd get exploited to the extent it did...
If you're so ******** that you'd play a money match with someone who knows WD/L-cancel/etc. without knowing how to do it yourself, whose fault is that? Not the person that took the time to practice and improve...and WD increases the fluidity of the game if used properly...
Seriously, all I'm seeing from you is a butthurt little Brawl*** that never learned any AT's and is taking it out on people who do...
Blackshadow
Smash Ace
Just to shut the noob up, see the proof that wavedashing was intentional, and therefore not a glitch.
ggkthxbai
ggkthxbai
Johnny Pteran
Smash Journeyman
The point is not that it takes skill, it's the fact it's there in the first place, and you so blindly defend it for no reason. It's a glitch, get over it.
It's not natural.
Yes, it does. It makes perfect sense.
They knew it was there, but they didn't fix it due to laziness. They just thought it was harmless, they didn't think players would abuse it to this extent.
It's not my choice who I fight. Also, no u
And all I'm seeing is an arrogant little Tourney*** who mindlessly defends a glitch for no reason and is taking it out on the GOOD players who appreciate non-glitchy games.
Well, aren't you mature. Just because Sakurai knew Wavedashing was in there, doesn't mean it was intentional. Where in that post does it say Sakurai purposely put it in there?
Cinder
Smash Master
Wow...Firus is right...you are such an arrogant prick...get over yourself...
Prove it to me...
It makes sense to just stop cold? Maybe if the ground were covered in molasses or something...
Doesn't prove it was a glitch...
I wasn't talking about you...I'm referring to the Melee n00bs you're saying are losing money because they can't play at a professional level...once again, those people shouldn't be spending money if they have no chance to win...
1) I'm not mindlessly defending a glitch...I'm defending an exploit with actual knowledge, which I have yet to see from you...
2) You imply that not playing Brawl makes me a bad player...which it doesn't...I don't play Brawl...I play Melee...I'm not a pro, but I'm halfway decent...I'm good at what I do...
Johnny Pteran
Smash Journeyman
Since I'm tired of quoting everything,
1. I'm not being arrogant. You are. Right now.
2. I can't prove it to you, but I can safely say that Sakurai didn't put it in there on purpose. He knew it was there, he just didn't bother fixing it. Big difference there.
3. Just get off this point, Jesus. If I were to "waveride" in real life, I would stop in mid-air, drift to the side, then drop down to the ground. If I did it closely to the ground, I would probably fall on my face. But Smash Bros. characters don't do that.
4. It.. Basically does.
5. "Professional level" = Abusing glitches? Wow, remind me to never play Melee ever again.
6. Just because you say it's an exploit doesn't make it so. It's a glitch, stop defending it, and stop calling it something it's not. And stop typing all depressed, too. It's annoying.
Cinder
Smash Master
Is it lonely up there on your pedestal?
No proof? You think that's gonna convince me? You weren't on the development team...
Whatever you say...
How?
We don't need arrogant scrubs like you, anyway...good riddance...
Just because you say it's a glitch doesn't make it so. I'll defend my opinion as I **** well please. I'm not typing "depressed"...I'm typing using logic...oh, I'm sorry...you wouldn't know, would you?
Sakurai didn't want the game to be played competitively either. But this forum wouldn't exist if people didn't want to play it that way, so you can't legitimately say that we should play "how it was meant to be played". I spent $50 or however much on the game, I'll do whatever the hell I want with it, thank you very much.
No, it's not multiplayer or played in tournament settings. But as far as serious video game playing goes, I think Speed Running is up there with competitive gaming. And if you'll watch the best any% run of Super Metroid on speeddemosarchive, here, you'll see...WOW, a lot of techniques like single wall jumping and a metric ton of sequence breaking. Imagine that!
Oh, so the truth comes out. You don't like wavedashing because you can't do it.
It's as easy as looking up "wavedashing" on YouTube and watching the video. Then practice it.
In short, your argument = johning.
No johns.
Yes it does, those are the official tourney rules. If you don't like the official SmashBoards rules, go start your own forum with rules for Melee tournaments the way you like them.
No, Wavedashing is an EXPLOIT. Only idiots like you cannot accept this. You're not a figure of authority here, so unless you have something more to say than "IT IS A GLITCH LAWL!", shut the hell up. You can't make an argument by stating your opinion unless you're trustworthy and well-known. Which clearly you're not.
Okay, let's talk fighting games then.
Are you going to john because there are complex combos in games like Street Fighter too? Let's remove those, so you don't have to practice to win. Great idea. Start a Street Fighter+ competitive scene.
You are wrong, stop acting like your uninformed opinion is correct and get over it.
Either you failed Science or you're in Elementary School still.
IT'S CALLED INERTIA, DUMB***.
Try jumping horizontally and landing on a relatively smooth surface. Do you slide? I thought so.
Basic physics FAIL.
HAHAH!!!
Yeah, you're SUCH a good player, and you don't john AT ALL.
[/epic, epic, sarcasm]
I also assume this means that M2K isn't a good player?
Sakurai knowingly left wavedashing in the game.
QED
Wavedashing was meant to be in the game.
EPIC WIN.
Along with everything else you've said, Cinder.
Johnny Pteran
Smash Journeyman
Alright, since Cinder failed to bring up any actual arguments in his last post, I'll just quote you.
There's no need to be a prick in your arguments. Keep your douchebaggery to yourself. You're on the internets, pal. We expect clean language. Now, I'll address your key points.
1. I've wavedashed before. You completely missed the point of my post. Read it again.
2. Wavedashing is exploiting a glitch in how waveriding works. I'm not going to bother arguing about this further.
3. You need to practice in all games to learn the timing for moves and how to use them correctly. I don't want fighting games to have no learning curve, but I don't want glitches either.
4. About your inertia point. Wavedashing involves sliding to the side, then the momentum stops. Imagine moving to the left, then stopping when the "waveride" sequence ends.. In mid-air. That's what waveriding is.
5. Sakurai left it in the game because he thought it was harmless, and was apparently too lazy to get rid of it. He didn't think the glitch would be exploited to this point, and he now accepts that it exists. That doesn't mean he purposely put it in there.
End of argument, guys. Good game everyone. I'm not going to bother arguing about this anymore, I'm getting tired of your douchebaggery. I'm only 8-years-old, and your bad language is influencing me in a negative way.
Cinder
Smash Master
Fix'd
Stop talking to the mirror...it can't talk back...
Vids or it didn't happen...
Because you can't...you're ignoring the fact that we actually have valid points and cling to your inaccuracies...
Then why do you play Brawl?
You make no sense...does your little world have different physics than ours?
You ignore the fact that it's not a glitch...and you can't prove it was...
Because once again, you can't...you haven't brought any proof to the table, nor have you done anything other than say "I'm right, you're wrong, end of story"...
And we're fed up with yours...
8? Then you'd be a year old when Melee came out...you haven't haven't had enough of an education to prove us wrong on the physics aspect, and you haven't played Melee long enough to know anything about it...and you have NO right to accuse us of bad language...you'be been using "douchebaggery" during that last post, and you've called me both a d**k (on Nintendohub...you didn't think I'd forget, did you?) and a tourney***...you've been slinging MORE foul language than me and Firus COMBINED...stop being a hypocrite and grow up...
That's because he already made valid points that you shot down (or didn't, rather) with "ZOMG I'M RIGHT!" and he's left to make epic win insults.
I think you're the prick here, but whatever.
Clean language is not expected on the internet at all...on forums, there are rules about it, but that's why the forum auto-censors things. I censor them out myself anyways.
Point is: I DID use clean language. The other language is merely implied.
No, I completely got the point. But your john of "some people can't do it" makes sense if you can't do it. I don't know why the hell you care if you can do it.
Then again, there's nothing stopping you from lying. Nor is there anything allowing me to tell if you're lying. Point is; it was a reasonable assumption given the circumstances.
It's a manipulation of physics, an exploit. I'm not going to bother arguing about this further either, since clearly nothing gets through to you.
I don't want johners who call wavedashing a glitch in my game either.
What...?
Regardless, exact physics aren't relevant here anyways. You can't airdodge, or have floating landmasses, or double/triple/etc. jump, either. If physics were actually relevant in a video game as to whether something's a glitch or not...hey, why don't we remove double jumps?
Well that's his fault, not ours. Laziness doesn't pay off, he has no right to be pissed if it was his fault, and nor do you.
And by the way, it IS harmless.
I'm assuming the last sentence was sarcasm.
Either way, good.
EPIC WIN.
In fact, your entire post was, Cinder. Bravo again.
Johnny Pteran
Smash Journeyman
I've been slinging more foul language, amirite? laugh out loud
Half...no, less, of what you actually quoted was "foul language". Maybe you really are 8...
No seriously, are you? I can't tell if you were being sarcastic or not.
Johnny Pteran
Smash Journeyman
Alright, there is no need for being such a douchebag. Just forget it, if you can't argue at least in a non-sarcastic manner, I'm leaving.
Cinder
Smash Master
Actually, that's probably the nicest thing I've said to you in this thread. I wasn't being sarcastic at all, that second sentence was a serious question.
But if you want to leave over that, fine. I'm not complaining.
ExCeL 52
Smash Lord
Dude I agree..
A good example could be the crazy nerfs they have set on peach from melee...
Like glide canceling and her forward grabs or down a smash
A good example could be the crazy nerfs they have set on peach from melee...
Like glide canceling and her forward grabs or down a smash
JonaDiaper
Smash Champion
agreed 99%
mk being banned is neccessary. there is no way to challenge him.
the game is so simplistic you cant just mindgame him to win like you can challenge people in melee
lag free, fast, arguably best recovery, =broken.
a player with an ounce of skill can win with mk.
it doesnt take much.
but yea brawl sucks.
i bought 2 wiis just for it.
the first one i bought i gave to my uncle becuase he wanted it for his kid.
the second one i had finally gotten brawl with it and it sucked.
so i sold it to my girlfriends little brother and he broke it in 2 days.
brawl is ********
mele>brawl
mk being banned is neccessary. there is no way to challenge him.
the game is so simplistic you cant just mindgame him to win like you can challenge people in melee
lag free, fast, arguably best recovery, =broken.
a player with an ounce of skill can win with mk.
it doesnt take much.
but yea brawl sucks.
i bought 2 wiis just for it.
the first one i bought i gave to my uncle becuase he wanted it for his kid.
the second one i had finally gotten brawl with it and it sucked.
so i sold it to my girlfriends little brother and he broke it in 2 days.
brawl is ********
mele>brawl
Nintendevil
Smash Ace
It's sad people actually think this.
EDIT: further, I wouldn't even bother to play Melee until I found at least four other people to play it with.
Johnny Pteran, stop trying to tell the competitive smash community that hardly anyone wavedashed in Melee. When we talk about wavedashing, we're talking about players who have decided to take their play to a competitive level.
Lots of games incorporate physics exploits and glitches into high level play. Brawl is full of advanced techniques that are character specific, like DACUS.
Sure, if you're a casual player you're not going to use AT's like wavedashing (An unintended physics exploit, not a glitch), it's not like I know how to BXR in Halo 2, but have enough fun playing casually without it anyway.
So you can either play to win, or play casually. Just because you're a casual player doesn't mean you can't try to win, but if you wanted to give yourself every advantage you'd go out and learn every advanced technique available and applicable.
Johnny Pteran, you're preaching to the wrong crowd. Seriously. Listen to Cinder.
Lots of games incorporate physics exploits and glitches into high level play. Brawl is full of advanced techniques that are character specific, like DACUS.
Sure, if you're a casual player you're not going to use AT's like wavedashing (An unintended physics exploit, not a glitch), it's not like I know how to BXR in Halo 2, but have enough fun playing casually without it anyway.
So you can either play to win, or play casually. Just because you're a casual player doesn't mean you can't try to win, but if you wanted to give yourself every advantage you'd go out and learn every advanced technique available and applicable.
Johnny Pteran, you're preaching to the wrong crowd. Seriously. Listen to Cinder.
Wind Owl
Smash Lord
Vyse, how do you do the randomized sig thing?
Also, is that girl from Ever17? I should probably finish playing that one day >.>
EDIT: What in the **** is 'waveriding'?
Also, is that girl from Ever17? I should probably finish playing that one day >.>
EDIT: What in the **** is 'waveriding'?
Mith_
Smash Champion
Fletch
Smash Master
Now I understand. I really wish SWF had reputation back so we could at least do something to this guy. It's annoying letting people post such ignorant crap all over the boards these days.
Alphicans
Smash Hero
To me, brawl is about systematically picking away at your opponent untill you can eventually kill them. I honestly think brawl feels like a game of chess when playing. You want to approach your opponent, but you don't want to set yourself so an important piece gets taken out. It could be said that melee also has this feeling, or even moreso due to the ability to punish easier, but I disagree. The top tier characters of melee can combo so well, having someone do a 60% combo on you can be easily leveled. In brawl, If I manage to pull off a 60% "combo" on someone, I have a serious lead. Just like in chess, when I take out a pawn, you can take out my pawn, in brawl I can hit you, but then I will probably be hit back. In chess, If I can set it up so you leave, lets say your queen, open, I have a serious advantage.
Also, in melee, stocks didn't feel like a very big deal. Combos can take a stock off with minimal damage taken. obviously good DI can stop this, but it's still easier to take a stock off in melee than it is in brawl, I am sure all of you will agree, that's one of the problems with the game right? I don't think so. When a stock is taken off in brawl, the pawn-pawn sequence will come back into play, and I may be able to get 40% on my opponent before I die, and just like that I am ahead 1/4 a stock.
That's how I feel about the competitive nature of brawl.
Also, in melee, stocks didn't feel like a very big deal. Combos can take a stock off with minimal damage taken. obviously good DI can stop this, but it's still easier to take a stock off in melee than it is in brawl, I am sure all of you will agree, that's one of the problems with the game right? I don't think so. When a stock is taken off in brawl, the pawn-pawn sequence will come back into play, and I may be able to get 40% on my opponent before I die, and just like that I am ahead 1/4 a stock.
That's how I feel about the competitive nature of brawl.