Crushing the Competitive Spirit

[WooICYU]

To me, brawl is about systematically picking away at your opponent untill you can eventually kill them. I honestly think brawl feels like a game of chess when playing. You want to approach your opponent, but you don't want to set yourself so an important piece gets taken out. It could be said that melee also has this feeling, or even moreso due to the ability to punish easier, but I disagree. The top tier characters of melee can combo so well, having someone do a 60% combo on you can be easily leveled. In brawl, If I manage to pull off a 60% "combo" on someone, I have a serious lead. Just like in chess, when I take out a pawn, you can take out my pawn, in brawl I can hit you, but then I will probably be hit back. In chess, If I can set it up so you leave, lets say your queen, open, I have a serious advantage.

Also, in melee, stocks didn't feel like a very big deal. Combos can take a stock off with minimal damage taken. obviously good DI can stop this, but it's still easier to take a stock off in melee than it is in brawl, I am sure all of you will agree, that's one of the problems with the game right? I don't think so. When a stock is taken off in brawl, the pawn-pawn sequence will come back into play, and I may be able to get 40% on my opponent before I die, and just like that I am ahead 1/4 a stock.

That's how I feel about the competitive nature of brawl.

Quoted for an amazing analogy.

 

[Nintendevil]

To me, brawl is about systematically picking away at your opponent untill you can eventually kill them. I honestly think brawl feels like a game of chess when playing. You want to approach your opponent, but you don't want to set yourself so an important piece gets taken out. It could be said that melee also has this feeling, or even moreso due to the ability to punish easier, but I disagree. The top tier characters of melee can combo so well, having someone do a 60% combo on you can be easily leveled. In brawl, If I manage to pull off a 60% "combo" on someone, I have a serious lead. Just like in chess, when I take out a pawn, you can take out my pawn, in brawl I can hit you, but then I will probably be hit back. In chess, If I can set it up so you leave, lets say your queen, open, I have a serious advantage.

Also, in melee, stocks didn't feel like a very big deal. Combos can take a stock off with minimal damage taken. obviously good DI can stop this, but it's still easier to take a stock off in melee than it is in brawl, I am sure all of you will agree, that's one of the problems with the game right? I don't think so. When a stock is taken off in brawl, the pawn-pawn sequence will come back into play, and I may be able to get 40% on my opponent before I die, and just like that I am ahead 1/4 a stock.

That's how I feel about the competitive nature of brawl.

And this...

 

[Vylit]

First off I'd like to say (of course in my very stylish color) that you have made excellent points, and that everything I will state has been from my experiences on the West Coast. Many others you have made though, can in fact be turned around. I will first start off with a point that I thought you had eloquently stated, " But this ugly, anti-competitive spirit has spread like a plague throughout the community, and has reared its ugly head in more ways than one". I agree with this fully. I have a long time friend who plays melee with me on occasions but has completely given up Brawl (I forgot to mentioned I like Brawl). We play together like melee because it's one of the most competitive games out there, and were as I'm not as proficent as he is in it I still have fun. He sets goals for me because he's one of the best players I know. This applies itself even in brawl for me. I target lower name competitors and try and get myself out there by trying over come their skill, and it works out. I love playing both games to be honest. Back to my friend, he however feels that he cannot beat D3 because he plays Wolf. He told me after we went to UCLA that he was going to quit brawl. His wolf was good, I would say that it was becoming in range of being of equal or lesser skill of GERM's Wolf. My friend and I even played GERM and SIDEFX in doubles in the first or second round of the UCLA tournament. We got knocked out of course, but it was still fun, my friend got his props from GERM and we were happy for a short time. Until he faced against John, who is appearantly good with D3. That was the day he lost all hope for Brawl and sought to go be a knight of banning him. It didn't work out, so he gave up on it. I constantly told him it wasn't hopeless because all you need is a better skill level, and this applies itself to even melee because just like Brawl, melee has a tier list showing a characters "potential". In melee and Brawl I play the characters I like to play such as Mewtwo, Roy, and Lucario. Not the best characters until you get to Lucario. I've always been a pretty big pokemon nut, I've loved Lucario, but not enough to force it on others. In fact, when I saw Lucario he was the reason why I started to play Mewtwo, to learn timing, and in effect it helped me a lot in Brawl. Regardless of how much Mewtwo or Roy may carry a disadvantage over a Marth, Fox, or a Falco I still play because I love being competetive, I love being able to beat them with a low tier character because I practice enough, and saying that my skill has reach their level. Tier list show potential evidently and how easy it is to use it. Roy and Mewtwo are on the low side of the tier list if I remember correctly, regardless I still like melee and playing melee. My friend on the other hand loves playing with higher tier characters because they're easier to play. That's all fine and dandy but when Brawl comes around, and you're not good with the highest tier character that doesn't mean you should stop playing. Or at least that's what I told my friend. Couple days later he comes back and we're setting up Brawl, best thing is he picks MetaKnight. I thought to myself, "Wow, really..." He ends up beating me of course, but that's not the point, he beat me just as he usually did with Wolf. One stock away from actually losing. When competition struck him like a brick he gave up. He now only plays melee against people he can only beat because he loves winning. I mean, who doesn't right? There comes a time though when you've got to lose, when you've got to learn, and I wish to some extent he learned that.

"Where is the enjoyment for little Timmy because his best friend is a cheap ******* who dthrows him to death on every walk-off stage? It's ironic to think that our tourney*** nature may actually preserve some of the enjoyment of the game, because we don't allow that kind of gayness." I found what you said here funny, for it was another good point, and it is ironic in more ways than just one. Sakurai created Brawl (or so I've read from an interview in Nintendo magazine) so that he could get rid of the difference of skill between player. Did that work out well? To some extent yes and to others no. For example, D3's chain grab, I don't know what kind of dim-witted nut-sack could've ever been a game tester and missed that. That's besides to point though, point is that there are things that can be related exactly to this in melee like Marths advantage over Falco, but this is not the only example, it is just one of many that can be related. I will admit though, both games are poorly made but by far the contrast of which one was made better was Brawl. Along with next gen-consoles they've brought out the next gen-Super Smash because they're able to make it a better game. They got rid of wavedashing, one of the most useful skills in melee to even the score up for players of all types because of that though you have many complaints about how they should've kept it. Over-all though I find Brawl to be another exciting and competitive game, not just another melee. When you enter a tournament, it's not easy. I have a clan that trains, never gets tired of it, with brawl. I don't believe it's so far out of sight as you believe, but it's your opinion and that is sacred.

Going towards your analogy about how Sakuari is the equivalent of government help, it was alright. Not perfect, but I understood what you were trying to say But here...oh no, '' 'Metaknight's too hard to fight, so instead of actually being forced to get better, let's just ban him!' " This is the kind of spirit has ravaged itself through the lower levels of the communities we live in, and were as I don't live in such a bad state right now I will soon. Will I rely on the government? No. I want to earn my money, I want to spit in the governments face. In fact, I don't like the government. The government is here to do one thing for me, take a little part of my money to defend me, and organize communities. That's all the governement should ever do. The quote I used from you above is a good analogy to those who live in a poor community, and instead of toughing it out want to feed off the spite of people much like himself and start a movement that will hopefully appease his appetite further so that way he can win. Really? Is this necessary? Absolutely not. Bottom line is all you need to do is get better because fact of the matter is MK, D3, Snake, all the top tier characters are not impossible to beat. A character that is worthy of being banned is someone you're not able to beat in all scenarios, not just your personal ones (and keep this in mind that I'm not directly speaking in a manner towards you, but to those that have these certain opinions).

Bottom line though, it's not the game itself that has made the community to spiteful of characters, players, and levels. It's the players themselves. They're not being open-minded about the game, they're simply looking for things to pick out about it to complain about. If it's not the most exciting game to you, if you feel it take less skill, then resert back to melee. If you like both, play both. If you only like Brawl play Brawl. It's not fair to other players directly to just complain about a character they use, claim that they're cheap for using that character because you lack the necessary skill to beat him or her. It's just not fair, and that strikes a chord within my so deeply and I want to quell all the intolerance and anti-competitive spirit and just crush it.

If you read it, thanks. It seemed like I was angry. I wasn't. I'm just a tad disappointed.

 

[Alphicans]

Nice first post. I didn't actually read it, too long, and the colour hurts my eyes... ROFL

 

[Vylit]

Nice first post. I didn't actually read it, too long, and the colour hurts my eyes... ROFL

Hahaha. Thanks.
Yeah, it's so stylish that it hurts my eyes too lol.

 

[Wind Owl]

The color of your sig is quite readable, though. Stick with that.

 

[Vylit]

The color of your sig is quite readable, though. Stick with that.

Done

 

[tubes]

EDIT!
because apparently the thread gets better after the first page or so.

 

[Fletch]

To me, brawl is about systematically picking away at your opponent untill you can eventually kill them. I honestly think brawl feels like a game of chess when playing. You want to approach your opponent, but you don't want to set yourself so an important piece gets taken out. It could be said that melee also has this feeling, or even moreso due to the ability to punish easier, but I disagree. The top tier characters of melee can combo so well, having someone do a 60% combo on you can be easily leveled. In brawl, If I manage to pull off a 60% "combo" on someone, I have a serious lead. Just like in chess, when I take out a pawn, you can take out my pawn, in brawl I can hit you, but then I will probably be hit back. In chess, If I can set it up so you leave, lets say your queen, open, I have a serious advantage.

Also, in melee, stocks didn't feel like a very big deal. Combos can take a stock off with minimal damage taken. obviously good DI can stop this, but it's still easier to take a stock off in melee than it is in brawl, I am sure all of you will agree, that's one of the problems with the game right? I don't think so. When a stock is taken off in brawl, the pawn-pawn sequence will come back into play, and I may be able to get 40% on my opponent before I die, and just like that I am ahead 1/4 a stock.

That's how I feel about the competitive nature of brawl.

Basically you're saying you like Brawl because it's slower and more fair and has no combos?

 

[Alphicans]

I like how you can't be as reckless. Please don't over simplify my post, it's annoying.

 

[Fletch]

I like how you can't be as reckless. Please don't over simplify my post, it's annoying.

I don't understand? Being reckless in Melee can cost you a stock, whereas being reckless in Brawl will cause you to eat one hit.

 

[Alphicans]

Possibly 3 hits. Which is a big deal. Being reckless in melee might cost you a stock, but unlikely, and even so, 1 stock isn't THAT much. That game can be so back and fourth it's crazy. Brawl can also be back and fourth, but if you get to far ahead, it's harder to lose, where as in melee combacks happen, from my experience, more frequently.

 

[Wind Owl]

That's one of the very things I hate about Brawl. Once you're a stock or, God forbid, two stocks behind, you might as well concede. And if you should happen to suicide, forget about catching up.

I can't see why you would consider that a good thing.

 

[Mith_]

That's one of the very things I hate about Brawl. Once you're a stock or, God forbid, two stocks behind, you might as well concede. And if you should happen to suicide, forget about catching up.

I can't see why you would consider that a good thing.

Lol.
I suicide a lot.
A LOT.

 

[Alphicans]

That's one of the very things I hate about Brawl. Once you're a stock or, God forbid, two stocks behind, you might as well concede. And if you should happen to suicide, forget about catching up.

I can't see why you would consider that a good thing.

Because the game naturally rewards careful, and smart play.

 

[Mith_]

Because the game naturally rewards careful, and smart play.

Well wouldn't any game?
I'm sure the Melee players don't go blindly rushing in, and neither do any Brawl players.

 

[Alphicans]

Yes, I understand that. I mean brawl rewards it MORE. Melee rewards aggression, and risks more then it does careful play. In brawl, if I were to take a huge risk, I am at greater risk to lose everything then gain a lot of ground. It may sound like a bad thing, but this is why I enjoy the game.

 

[Wind Owl]

Um, no, in Brawl, if you take a huge risk you risk being dealt a few points of damage with the reward being a few points of damage, and then the situation just resets to neutral. There's no "momentum," only percentage lead.

I mean, I guess there's the occasional "run off the stage to gimp them but then you get gimped yourself" scenario, but... That happens in Melee all the time.

 

[Grunt]

Yes, I understand that. I mean brawl rewards it MORE. Melee rewards aggression, and risks more then it does careful play.

did you play melee at all?
I mean, play it well?

 

[The Dragon]

systematically picking away, sounds boring to me... i like fast combos with spikes, combos and all kinds of ****.. and once again, the more you can do in a game, means the more options you have in the game, which means more "mindgames". So brawl can not require more thought than melee by nature cause less options equal less thought. So please stop saying brawl is deeper/ requires more thought than melee.. please?

edit: fixed

 

[Grunt]

I C typo.
last sentence.

 

[Alphicans]

did you play melee at all?
I mean, play it well?

I am comparing it to brawl. When compared to brawl, melee rewards agression and risks. Brawl doesn't.

Maybe I exaggerated. You don't stand to lose everything, you just stand to lose more than gain. If I were to take a big risk, the best I could get is a smallish "combo" or percentage lead, but I could lose more then this, because it's easier to hit something that just missed. Again both happen in melee, but you have to compare the severity of each situation in both games.

 

[Wind Owl]

But, you don't seem to address that the very reward you hope to gain is equally as small as the punishment you could incur. Sure, you could take a big risk (like a smash attack, I guess?) but the most your opponent can do to you is smash you back. Unless you're at high percent, you won't lose a stock, you'll just take some damage and then the situation will be neutral again.

 

[Alphicans]

Yeah well, when the biggest thing you can do in a game is get a smash in, then it's a big deal right? In a game that has no hitstun and no combos every hit matters more then it does in melee.

 

[The Dragon]

Yeah well, when the biggest thing you can do in a game is get a smash in, then it's a big deal right? In a game that has no hitstun and no combos every hit matters more then it does in melee.

every hit matters equally in both games... brawl just has no follow ups so it takes forever and 3 days to kill someone.. melee team matches are shorter than brawl single matches

 

[Wind Owl]

@_@

You could argue the exact opposite. You could say, "you can be more aggressive in Brawl because your opponent can't actually punish you, and recovery is more lenient." (This is, of course, ignoring the broken defense system Brawl has.)

Brawl isn't more "careful," it's just more tedious. You can be patient in Melee, waiting for your opponent to slip up, and then **** a stock off of them because they made a mistake. You don't have to be the one on the offensive to be rewarded.

 

[Alphicans]

Why does every hit matter just as much in melee? If I get an fsmash on someone in melee, it doesn't exactly change the course of the match. In brawl I am actually ahead now. Whether or not it's noticable I am still ahead, and will maintain an advantage unless my opponent plays it more carefully. In melee if you're behind, you can get a good combo in and come back. Brawl is me waiting, and being patient as hell and slowly coming back.

I noticed that every point I give to support brawl is actually why lots of you hate it... ROFL! I guess I am weird that way.

 

[The Dragon]

Why does every hit matter just as much in melee? If I get an fsmash on someone in melee, it doesn't exactly change the course of the match. In brawl I am actually ahead now. Whether or not it's noticable I am still ahead, and will maintain an advantage unless my opponent plays it more carefully. In melee if you're behind, you can get a good combo in and come back. Brawl is me waiting, and being patient as hell and slowly coming back.

I noticed that every point I give to support brawl is actually why lots of you hate it... ROFL! I guess I am weird that way.

it actually matters more in melee, in melee a uptilt leads to forward to ken combo (too lazy to type it out) with a spike at the end resulting in the loss of the stock..

in brawl an up-tilt leads to nothing because there is no hitstun and the guy air dodged and is back on the ground.

so which does that game did that one initial hit affect more. melee of course because getting hit once can mean the end of a stock or match at anytime. Brawl not so much.

 

[Vylit]

I think you all should just respect each others opinions and not debate about which one is better. You'll never get straight facts, and instead of arguing (which is what this is seemingly turning out to be) you should all just let it go and respect the fact that you may like either game, or even both. Hell, I like both, but I can understand why one would dislike the other more, but it's turning into more like a war between which one is "better". We all know that can't be accurately defined. So why not just let it go and let whoever just play the game?

We all know hits in both games are important.

We all know that come-backs are difficult in either game.

We all know that if you kill yourself, that's your fault.

We all know that if you play aggressively you still have to be on your toes in both games.

We all know that if you play defensively you have to keep a watchful eye in both games.

Can't we all just leave it at that?

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

It's sad people actually think this.

EDIT: further, I wouldn't even bother to play Melee until I found at least four other people to play it with.

Believe me, I used to be a scrub and think that no one in Germany played smash. I looked closer and found a thriving competitive scene, which, despite being a little immature at times, is great fun and rather large.

Of course, this all changes if you aren't willing to travel an hour in any direction w/ whatever means of transport are available to you.

About the whole Wavedashing thing; I notice that Johnny Pteran didn't bother trying to refute my post on the topic. Maybe because he can't?

 

[Skler]

Fox and Sheik were gimped soooo easily, thier recovery was horrible, even for Melee. Jigglypuff was also a reliable counterpick for them. Have you forgotten about Falco, Marth, CF, and Peach?


Are you saying Hylian is a lazy player?

Jigglypuff got ****ed sideways by both Fox and Sheik. CF also gets ***** by Fox and Sheik, same with peach. Marth gets ***** by sheik and goes even with Fox. Fox goes pretty much even with Falco. Fox has two even matchups that aren't dittos (some people say sheik is even too, so you COULD say three). He has no bad matchups.

Are you saying CF, Peach and Jigglypuff have good matchups against Fox and Sheik? Way to talk about **** you don't understand.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth has slight advantage Fox.

55/45 to 60/40 is ****?

Cuz that's what Marth vs Sheik is.

 

[Alphicans]

I've heard from a lot of ppl the opposite, that fox has the advantage or the m/u is even.

 

[Nintendevil]

Of course, this all changes if you aren't willing to travel an hour in any direction w/ whatever means of transport are available to you.

Yeah that's why.

 

[Tenki]

About the whole Wavedashing thing; I notice that Johnny Pteran didn't bother trying to refute my post on the topic. Maybe because he can't?

lol, really?

Luckily, I caught this on AiB:
http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?pid=464085#p464085

I don't go to tourneys lolol

anymore explanation?

 

[CommanderCody08]

I agree with pretty much everything you said.
But... you forgot something.

STICKERS!!!!!

I think Brawl's saving grace is stickers. I love zoning out with the music cranked up and arranging my stickers for hours much more than I ever enjoyed pulling off a Ken combo. If it weren't for the stickers I would definetely still play Melee though.

 

[Nintendevil]

I agree with pretty much everything you said.
But... you forgot something.

STICKERS!!!!!

I think Brawl's saving grace is stickers. I love zoning out with the music cranked up and arranging my stickers for hours much more than I ever enjoyed pulling off a Ken combo. If it weren't for the stickers I would definetely still play Melee though.

Wins the topic.

 

[Deoxys]

Haven't read this thread, just gonna throw my opinion out there. For me, Smash was always about the (relatively) fast-paced mindgames. Screw waveshines and moonwalks, I want to win by outsmarting my opponent, not by having better muscle memory. I realize that Melee still has just as much mindgames, but I'd rather have a greater mindgame/technical skill ration, like the one in Brawl.

Edit: OMG funniest thing evar \/

lol, really?

Luckily, I caught this on AiB:
http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?pid=464085#p464085


anymore explanation?

 

[Fletch]

Jigglypuff got ****ed sideways by both Fox and Sheik. CF also gets ***** by Fox and Sheik, same with peach. Marth gets ***** by sheik and goes even with Fox. Fox goes pretty much even with Falco. Fox has two even matchups that aren't dittos (some people say sheik is even too, so you COULD say three). He has no bad matchups.

Are you saying CF, Peach and Jigglypuff have good matchups against Fox and Sheik? Way to talk about **** you don't understand.

I think that a lot of people agree that both Marth and Falco have slight advantages over Fox, while Fox has a slight one over Sheik. The rest is right though, although Sheik over Marth isn't that bad.

 

[Deleted member]

Hey, melee lovers, stop saying brawl requires no skill. If i went and faced Hylian's G&W I would be 3 stocked. Brawl requires at least some skill to play, although, less than Melee.
The pros in Melee do these 0-to-death combos that'll obliterate any Noobs in a matter of seconds. The Brawl pros have to actually improvise at points to defeat Noobs which, in my opinion, balances out the scene. If the competitive scene is more balanced in my opinion would make the games more fun to play. The point about Brawl being defensive is very iffy. Brawl may be more defensive than Melee but I wouldn't call it "overly defensive" I think the Melee players may not be used to it. I would just give up on the hypothesis that Melee will overtake Brawl and become standard, this is IMPOSSIBLE. There are so many new Brawl competitive players daily it's not even funny. Also, many of the pros have moved on. Also, stop making fun of Brawl+. Saying that a game is awful because you have to hack it is a sad argument, I could say Melee is awful (even though it's not) because you have to use physics exploits to do well. There will always be two competitive scenes, two games, and two worlds, nothing anyone says will change that.

DISCLAIMER: I firmly believe that Melee is better, but Brawl is new so it'll be more popular and gain our collective attention.