Crushing the Competitive Spirit

[SkylerOcon]

Interesting read, but I have to disagree. If Brawl is so much 'easier' than Melee, how come there are still clear lines between the skill levels of me and a few other local players around here? Brawl may be easier to learn, but I think that's its still hard to master.

Interesting take on Brawl though.

 

[BrawlLover]

oh yeah bro, brawl is so deep, people just don't know!

 

[SothE700k]

Somebody said in the Melee forums, if you have to hack a game to make it better then it was a horrible game in the first place.

Hmm...well whoever said that, that is a good point.

I'm pretty much split down the middle, though I agree that some people for Brawl can be whiny f***s (*cough*MK ban debate*cough*)

 

[Banjodorf]

can't really crush the comp. spirit, it'll always be there

I agree with this statement.

If the competitive spirit were going to be crushed easily, there wouldn't have been 60+ people at the small-town tourney I went to about 2 weeks ago.

 

[Firus]

You can never completely crush the competitive spirit, but that's really nitpicking. Brawl is hurting the competitive spirit, is the point.

 

[The Dragon]

Yep, definitely. The breaking of my Brawl disc would give me an infinitely larger amount of pleasure than the amount I'll get from playing it at all.
Mostly, playing the game will just make me want throw the game at the wall, so I might as well beat it to the punch.



Haha, thanks.

You should falcon punch your brawl disc. Do it because its manly.

 

[BrawlLover]

You can never completely crush the competitive spirit, but that's really nitpicking. Brawl is hurting the competitive spirit, is the point.

how so? it might be hurting yours, but not everyone's

 

[Mith_]

Guys.
Lets play BAWRL.

 

[ndayday]

Ah, I love reading posts like this. First of all, very well written. You're going to have to excuse my post for being not thought out, and just basically getting my opinions out there.

When I listened to SMYN 41, I started asking myself WHY we want to ban him, listening to them talk about how they didn't do it for Melee, so why now. I came to the conclusion that there was some factor, or a series of factors, that results in this. They also mentioned that Brawl has an easier mindset. But what is that mindset that makes it so?

This post got me to realize that the factor is exactly what you said, Sakurai extended government aid to the community. Now, I clearly wasn't here all those years ago when the SWF was thriving with Melee, but I can imagine how great it was. People probably joined to get good at the competitive aspect of the game, unlike now that people join just because they Google Brawl cheats, or see a video on Youtube that has a video they see as good. I honestly look at Brawl, and then I look at Melee, and see how pathetic it looks next to it. Heck, if I placed the cases right next to eachother, I'd want to move Brawl away from Melee, it's not worthy of it's presence. Now, a few months ago I saw a video...a Melee video to be exact. I Killed Mufasa. I was so stunned by it, I could hardly believe it.

I showed some of my friends, but they didn't see the beauty of it. I was shocked, I couldn't believe they couldn't see how AMAZING it was, how much training and practice it must of took to accomplish that level of play. I told myself I was going to give up Brawl, and learn competitive Melee. I already had wavedashing, L-canceling, and SHFFLing down, so I just had to get used to it again. I got home from school and played Melee for maybe 6 hours, stopping only for bathroom breaks and dinner. I'm not amazing at the game, and I honestly probably never will. Maybe in a few years when I can drive, I can go places and play Melee, but right now Brawl is more fitting for a person that can't get around.

In your post, I think you missed two aspects of why all this is the way it is. One, it's a new game and people want to play new games, they simply don't appreciate what you have to do to be good in Melee. Luckily, I got into competitive Melee maybe 5 months before Brawl. Now for point two, when a new game comes out, people want it. Especially kids that around 13 and up. This is where the community fails, we have teenagers who join because Brawl is easy, people that don't appreciate a challenge like Melee. People who don't have the means to get around places on thier own. (Well, now that was more of an add on to what you said but it's still important nontheless)

I sincerely hope Brawl dies and Melee comes back, hopefully in time for when I can go places. In the meantime however, I will play Brawl and try to ignore Melee.

 

[Firus]

how so? it might be hurting yours, but not everyone's

It's not hurting mine at all.

I'm basically agreeing with exactly what the OP said...Brawl = easy and less competitive, but it's drawing all of the attention of competitive players. Thus hurting the competitive spirit. He did a much more eloquent job of explaining it, though, so...refer to what he said.

 

[JacobWins]

God ****ing ****it

I hate you Sakurai

 

[Fletch]

Interesting read, but I have to disagree. If Brawl is so much 'easier' than Melee, how come there are still clear lines between the skill levels of me and a few other local players around here? Brawl may be easier to learn, but I think that's its still hard to master.

Interesting take on Brawl though.

There is a much lower skill cap in Brawl. It takes skill, but not nearly as much. We should reach this theoretical "cap" much sooner than Melee, which I believe still has room for development. Watch early Brawl matches and compare them to recent matches, then do the same for Melee. The difference is astronomical.

 

[slartibartfast42]

Nice essay, I'm surprised you don't mention tripping, the ultimate and most obvious method Sakurai uses to help the scrubs have a chance to hit their opponent with Ike's forward smash.

I have some friends I met at brawl tourneys (from when the game first came out and I was pretending to like it/giving it a chance) who place well in them. They're pretty good, and enjoy the game, and I respect their feelings... But when I ask them why they won't play melee, it's because they say "some random fox player can just go crazy with fox and **** you without thinking." I say if that happened to me, I'd be inspired to get better so that I could beat that fox player. Competitive spirit ruined indeed.

Also, anyone who thinks brawl requires MORE mindgames and thinking than melee obviously isn't any good at melee. Brawl has barely any edgeguarding tactics or mindgames that were so intense in melee, brawl has less options when you're playing off the stages allowing less tricks and strategies. In melee, I can get out-thought by players with less tech skill than me. Brawl does have mindgames... That's ALL it has, so it seems like there's more mindgames than melee when there isn't.

 

[imPERSONater]

The only consolation I can hope to give is in the maybe hidden but obvious ingenuity of our community. The techniques perfected and learned in Melee, weren't so muh techniques but highly controlled glitches. I am willing to bet if all of the creators of Melee were sat down before the competitive scene hit and asked what the most advanced techniques available were, almost none of them would be utilized in the actual play. The real techniques that seperate the pros and noobs are found through hours upon hours of gameplay and probably a little bit of luck. I know this arguement has been torn to shreds previously, but I truly believe Brawl needs more time to sort out its problems. The pros need more time to master characters and then have the free time to mess around and discover these "techniques." The community needs more time to sort out MK and most of all we all need more time to adjust to this new game and its new set of rules/seemingly changed rules of physics. Maybe this doesn't help, maybe it does, but yearning for the days of old doesn't fix this problem, it only postpones its solution. Some of the best players in the nation and even the world still have their hearts lying with Melee and that may never change, but I personally hope they give Brawl a chance, because only with our input and feedback will this series grow in future game generations.

 

[BrawlLover]

wow nice first post imPERSONater! i fully agree with you

 

[Cinder]

Yeah, but one problem...most of Melee's AT's AREN'T GLITCHES! They're exploits...and L-Cancelling was INTENTIONAL...it's been there since the first Smash...

And we've given Brawl enough of a chance...we know it's floaty, combo-less, and overly defensive...is there anything else you'd like to add?

 

[Firus]

Yeah, but one problem...most of Melee's AT's AREN'T GLITCHES! They're exploits...and L-Cancelling was INTENTIONAL...it's been there since the first Smash...

And we've given Brawl enough of a chance...we know it's floaty, combo-less, and overly defensive...is there anything else you'd like to add?

This.

"*Insert AT* is a glitch" is a common way to attack Melee, and a false way to do so. Did the developers put it in the game? No. Were we meant to find out about it? No. That doesn't make it a glitch.

And time...just as Cinder said, it's floaty, combo-less, and overly defensive. TECHNIQUES CANNOT FIX THIS. The only thing that can is a major turnaround of the game's physics, which would require either a patch or hacks. Since there will be no DLC for Brawl (not that Sakurai would fix the physics anyways), and hacking will never become accepted tourney standard, it's impossible to fix.
Time cannot fix the game, and even if it could, how long are we going to have to give it? Another year? Another two years? Until the next Smash?

I will stand corrected if Brawl is ever somehow fixed. Until then, I will say with pure confidence that Brawl will never be fixed with time.

 

[BrawlLover]

loool not really, facts are facts, there's not much more to add

 

[Plum]

When I see the Brawl-Melee argument it really relates to another game close to my heart: Team Fortress.
When Team Fortress 2 came out the community was split between those who hated it and loved it, just like the Smash world.
Those who were against the game argued that TF2 took out what made TFC a great game.
The pro TF2 side were in favor of how the character specific grenades were taken out from Team Fortress Classic. They argued that the grenades ruined the game because nobody new could join the scene without getting absolutely ***** by people who new every single aspect of the grenades for their class.
This side wanted a more friendly game that would allow more people to enjoy higher levels of game play and were glad that TF2 allowed new players to come in and learn the game without getting so frustrated that they would have to leave the game altogether.
The grenades and the Half Life engine allowed for a more professionally fine tuned competitive game but limited the game at the same time. Those who were against TF2 even went and modded the game to include grenades so server operators could include them. Fortress Forever was put out to recreate TFC in the Source engine so players who hate TF2 could play a new version of TFC.
It was all very similar to what Brawl and Melee has been going through.
But look at TF2. The characters are actually balanced. The Pyro isn't a worthless class, the Medic is more of a support class like he should be. The Scout can actually accomplish what he was designed to do. So with what it took out of the game, it brought so much more into it.
I'm sure most of you will say Brawl has brought nothing into the game, but for me it certainly did. It allowed me to be competitive. I simply could not play Melee on a high level. I played since the release of 64, but didn't learn about the competitive scene until too late into Melee's life span. What I mean by that is that the levels of gameplay were so separated already that for someone like me to overcome the gap from scrub to competitor was just unrealistic or impossible all together. Even if I could overcome that gap the problem of staying out of practice would arise. I don't have the time to balance school, friends, my relationship, work, other video games I love, and the hours it requires for Melee. Brawl allows me to balance the game into my life. I also like the thought going into Brawl. 64 consisted of almost all 0-death combos. Melee consisted of who has faster fingers and can impute advanced techniques better. Brawl is about out thinking the other player. I like that more. It is my opinion, that a game that requires more thought and prediction is better.
Call me an 08'er because I say that. I say shut the **** up about the 08'er crap. I have played since 1999, and followed these forums since '05. Just because my join date says '08 means nothing.

 

[Fletch]

When I see the Brawl-Melee argument it really relates to another game close to my heart: Team Fortress.
When Team Fortress 2 came out the community was split between those who hated it and loved it, just like the Smash world.
Those who were against the game argued that TF2 took out what made TFC a great game.
The pro TF2 side were in favor of how the character specific grenades were taken out from Team Fortress Classic. They argued that the grenades ruined the game because nobody new could join the scene without getting absolutely ***** by people who new every single aspect of the grenades for their class.
This side wanted a more friendly game that would allow more people to enjoy higher levels of game play and were glad that TF2 allowed new players to come in and learn the game without getting so frustrated that they would have to leave the game altogether.
The grenades and the Half Life engine allowed for a more professionally fine tuned competitive game but limited the game at the same time. Those who were against TF2 even went and modded the game to include grenades so server operators could include them. Fortress Forever was put out to recreate TFC in the Source engine so players who hate TF2 could play a new version of TFC.
It was all very similar to what Brawl and Melee has been going through.
But look at TF2. The characters are actually balanced. The Pyro isn't a worthless class, the Medic is more of a support class like he should be. The Scout can actually accomplish what he was designed to do. So with what it took out of the game, it brought so much more into it.
I'm sure most of you will say Brawl has brought nothing into the game, but for me it certainly did. It allowed me to be competitive. I simply could not play Melee on a high level. I played since the release of 64, but didn't learn about the competitive scene until too late into Melee's life span. What I mean by that is that the levels of gameplay were so separated already that for someone like me to overcome the gap from scrub to competitor was just unrealistic or impossible all together. Even if I could overcome that gap the problem of staying out of practice would arise. I don't have the time to balance school, friends, my relationship, work, other video games I love, and the hours it requires for Melee. Brawl allows me to balance the game into my life. I also like the thought going into Brawl. 64 consisted of almost all 0-death combos. Melee consisted of who has faster fingers and can impute advanced techniques better. Brawl is about out thinking the other player. I like that more. It is my opinion, that a game that requires more thought and prediction is better.
Call me an 08'er because I say that. I say shut the **** up about the 08'er crap. I have played since 1999, and followed these forums since '05. Just because my join date says '08 means nothing.

I play TFC and TF2, and while I still think TFC is the better game, this comparison is definitely lacking. You mention balance, and I agree that TF2 is more balanced. How does Brawl stack up to Melee's balance? Oh ya, there's already talks of banning a character that pretty much the entire cast cannot stand up to. And I guess you brought this up, but TF2 did just remove options for no apparent reason, and of course the competitive players were mad. You can say that you're glad this makes games more accessible for people, but with that kind of attitude, I really believe that competitive gaming is not for you. The first tournament I went to in Melee I got my *** handed to me, and I loved it. I thought I was great, and learned that I had so much more to learn and get better, showing how deep Melee was. Now if I actually played Brawl, I would never have that happen again, nor would there be massive room to improve.

And GTFO with Brawl being more about out-thinking your opponent, it's not even close to the level of mindgames that were required in Melee, simply because there's not as many options/choices to use against your opponent. Play both games at a high level and try to come back and say that.

 

[Oracle]

Ah, I love reading posts like this. First of all, very well written. You're going to have to excuse my post for being not thought out, and just basically getting my opinions out there.

When I listened to SMYN 41, I started asking myself WHY we want to ban him, listening to them talk about how they didn't do it for Melee, so why now. I came to the conclusion that there was some factor, or a series of factors, that results in this. They also mentioned that Brawl has an easier mindset. But what is that mindset that makes it so?

This post got me to realize that the factor is exactly what you said, Sakurai extended government aid to the community. Now, I clearly wasn't here all those years ago when the SWF was thriving with Melee, but I can imagine how great it was. People probably joined to get good at the competitive aspect of the game, unlike now that people join just because they Google Brawl cheats, or see a video on Youtube that has a video they see as good. I honestly look at Brawl, and then I look at Melee, and see how pathetic it looks next to it. Heck, if I placed the cases right next to eachother, I'd want to move Brawl away from Melee, it's not worthy of it's presence. Now, a few months ago I saw a video...a Melee video to be exact. I Killed Mufasa. I was so stunned by it, I could hardly believe it.

I showed some of my friends, but they didn't see the beauty of it. I was shocked, I couldn't believe they couldn't see how AMAZING it was, how much training and practice it must of took to accomplish that level of play. I told myself I was going to give up Brawl, and learn competitive Melee. I already had wavedashing, L-canceling, and SHFFLing down, so I just had to get used to it again. I got home from school and played Melee for maybe 6 hours, stopping only for bathroom breaks and dinner. I'm not amazing at the game, and I honestly probably never will. Maybe in a few years when I can drive, I can go places and play Melee, but right now Brawl is more fitting for a person that can't get around.

In your post, I think you missed two aspects of why all this is the way it is. One, it's a new game and people want to play new games, they simply don't appreciate what you have to do to be good in Melee. Luckily, I got into competitive Melee maybe 5 months before Brawl. Now for point two, when a new game comes out, people want it. Especially kids that around 13 and up. This is where the community fails, we have teenagers who join because Brawl is easy, people that don't appreciate a challenge like Melee. People who don't have the means to get around places on thier own. (Well, now that was more of an add on to what you said but it's still important nontheless)

I sincerely hope Brawl dies and Melee comes back, hopefully in time for when I can go places. In the meantime however, I will play Brawl and try to ignore Melee.

Don't ignore melee! Help it gain back it's previous popularity

 

[Firus]

I'm sure most of you will say Brawl has brought nothing into the game, but for me it certainly did. It allowed me to be competitive. I simply could not play Melee on a high level. I played since the release of 64, but didn't learn about the competitive scene until too late into Melee's life span. What I mean by that is that the levels of gameplay were so separated already that for someone like me to overcome the gap from scrub to competitor was just unrealistic or impossible all together. Even if I could overcome that gap the problem of staying out of practice would arise. I don't have the time to balance school, friends, my relationship, work, other video games I love, and the hours it requires for Melee. Brawl allows me to balance the game into my life. I also like the thought going into Brawl. 64 consisted of almost all 0-death combos. Melee consisted of who has faster fingers and can impute advanced techniques better. Brawl is about out thinking the other player. I like that more. It is my opinion, that a game that requires more thought and prediction is better.

So...you think that competitivity should be more accessible, easier to accomplish, take less skill to reach...?

I can see where you're coming from, but how'd you feel if people in the NFL could also be high school kids or younger? This is a thing that people COMMONLY make a point of when arguing for Brawl, and I think it hurts Brawl's argument more than helps it. More accessible = more people. More people = a wider variety of people. A wider variety of people = a wider range of skill. A wider range of skill = people with less skill also competing. People with less skill competing = less competitive.
By the Transitive Property of Equality, (geometry for the lose) more accessible = less competitive.

While it may be great to be able to get into the game easier, the same thing is applicable to casual vs. hardcore gaming. While it's great for your entire family, all of your friends, whatever, to be able to play video games, the dumbing down of formerly hardcore titles is hardly worth it. Because then the people who were already playing video games have their enjoyment reduced. The same applies here. While it's great for everyone to play competitively, if things have to actually be less competitive and the old competitive players have less enjoyment, it's not worth it.
It's great that you want to play competitively, but I'm sorry, if you don't have the time to put in to be good for competitive Smash, that's just too bad. I don't really have the time to become competitive, I don't think I'll ever be able to be good enough to compete in Melee, as unfortunate as it is.
But I still prefer Melee.

Also, enough with the "Brawl is about thought, Melee is for robots" kind of logic. It's not true. Melee required thought, too. If you're playing against a player that is not pre-programmed with a stage that does not change to fit your whims, then there's thought involved.
Brawl just seems like it involves thinking because you're doing so much more of it due to so much more time spent floating.

Call me an 08'er because I say that. I say shut the **** up about the 08'er crap. I have played since 1999, and followed these forums since '05. Just because my join date says '08 means nothing.

Jeez, no one said anything about you being an '08er. Even so, while you may have been lurking the forums since '05, most '08ers joined with no background of competitive Smash, just because of Brawl. Even as an '08er myself, I think it's a reasonable assumption.

Also, playing since 1999 means nothing. Most of us have been playing since the original came out. Even most Brawl n00bs, probably. Long-time fan =/= informed and competitive.

 

[Geist]

First of all.
How the hell does Brawl take more mental skill than Melee?
In Brawl, what do you have... Rock paper scissors without the scissors. It has the competitive depth of tic-tac-toe, and about as much time required to master it. Brawl is sluggish, does everything for you, and has mechanics that make it impossible to take advantage of any given situation even if it was handed to you on a silver platter. Missed your attack? Chill, you can just air-dodge and you hit the ground with a shield with zero lag. Miscalculated your recovery? It's okay, you can auto sweetspot. Got caught off guard? DI that **** and survive to ridiculous percents.

In melee you have to out think your opponent while calculating everything. It's ALL manual, and to add insult to injury, you also have to think at a faster level. You have to master your techniques in order to win in this, not just camp on the ledge with Metaknight. There's technical skill applied to mental skill, and both of them way outweigh Brawl's.

These arguments placed against melee have no effective grounding to them. None of the advanced techniques are glitches, and if you have any argument that they are, you obviously have no idea how to classify a glitch.
glitches: IC's freeze glitch - you freeze in mid-air. FOREVER. until IC's say otherwise. GLITCH.
black hole glitch - You touch the flaming, floating turnips and you get 999% in a fraction of a second. GLITCH

exploits: Wavedashing/landing - The physics engine specifically allows momentum to continue from the air to the ground. If it did not, diagonal down hits against the ground you would stop in your tracks. The directional wavedashes allow you to slide across the ground relative to your character's friction, HENCE why each character has different wavesdash lengths. NOT A GLITCH
platform cancelling - simply hitting a platform, activating your landing animation in a move, and sliding off, quitting the animation. NOT A GLITCH.

obvious one: L Cancelling. Z Cancelling was put in the original Smash 64 MANUAL and had the exact same function as L Cancelling. L CANCELLING ALSO HAS IT'S OWN PROGRAMMED ANIMATION. NOT A GLITCH.
Teching - HAS ITS OWN ANIMATION.

The only advanced techniques I can think of that may be a glitch is moonwalking. That's basically it. And it's pretty much useless and extremely situational.


Brawl is a good CASUAL GAME. In fact, it's probably one of the best Casual games, assuming you play it for casual purposes. But by all accounts, it is a terrible competitive game, and is one of the weakest games that is actually played competitively in my experience.

 

[Backward]

Jam Stunna speaks the truth.

The frustrating part is that Sakurai could have made the game appeal to both casual and competitive players, yet purposefully toned it down. I had high hopes for the game, but finally admitted it being inferior to Melee five months in.

I've not touched the disc since summer. Played it occasionally with friends, yes, but everytime we sit down and begin our singles, I sigh at how laid back I could be playing it whereas we would be 100% concentrated in Melee.

By the way, I almost broke my Wii the first day I played Brawl when I realized that Ken Combo wasn't a combo anymore.

 

[Geist]

Sakurai openly said in an interview that he dislikes competition gaming.
He fortunately also said he wasn't going to direct the next smash. Talk about a direct **** you to the melee community. It's basically a hit-and-run.

 

[BrawlLover]

my spirit was hurt a bit when i read that but it's ok, he doesn't even play the game

 

[Proverbs]

Brawl has the competitive depth of tic-tac-toe.

1. That's totally going into my sig (although at the end where you'd have to go to my profile to see it ;~; Not enough room).

2. However, I don't entirely agree. I mean, I've pulled off some crazy mindgames in tic-tac-toe. I mean, they thought I was going to go to the bottom left BUT I WENT FOR THE CENTER! Completely threw them off. That doesn't happen when playing Brawl, they know I'm going to use Tornado.

And yet...it always seems to work.

 

[Geist]

1. That's totally going into my sig (although at the end where you'd have to go to my profile to see it ;~; Not enough room).

2. However, I don't entirely agree. I mean, I've pulled off some crazy mindgames in tic-tac-toe. I mean, they thought I was going to go to the bottom left BUT I WENT FOR THE CENTER! Completely threw them off. That doesn't happen when playing Brawl, they know I'm going to use Tornado.

And yet...it always seems to work.

*looks at profile*
osnap lol

I've heard other people compare brawl to tic-tac-toe and other things like connect four.
But they both take MASSIVE mindgames amirite?

 

[Proverbs]

Exactly. I don't see how Brawl can compare with the competitive depth of games like tic-tac-toe and connect four.

I mean, in connect four I can place three of mine in the center. That way if they block one side, I have the other. Or I can create other distractions on the board--or go backwards and diagonal (those are hard to spot sometimes).

Man, I already have more strategies than most Brawl characters have approaches. O_O;;

 

[captain smashie01]

By the way, I almost broke my Wii the first day I played Brawl when I realized that Ken Combo wasn't a combo anymore.

Never play PAL melee then

 

[Wind Owl]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmomHoEG5g0
>_>

 

[Proverbs]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmomHoEG5g0
>_>

So...what? I don't know if you're using this to say that Brawl is still competitive or what. If you are saying that, then I'd say this is nothing compared to Melee Marth dittos. That and this is Brawl+.

If you're saying Brawl isn't competitive, I'm not sure why you posted a video for that.

If you're saying that Ken Combos still work in Brawl, once again this is Brawl+. That and there was no successful Ken Combo in that match. However there was an interrupted Ken Combo early in the match...meaning it's not a combo anymore.

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say...

And those guys have no clue how to play Brawl.

No one's playing MetaKnight in that match and spamming tornado.

 

[The Dragon]

yah i have no idea why you posted that video either... my guess is you were trying to defend brawl in some shape or form, so I'll respond by saying that your defending a game by posting a video of a hacked version of the game. So what your saying is that in order for brawl to be any good is for you to hack it. Not only that but hacked so that it is more like the game your are trying not to play, melee (L-Cancelling, Wave Dashing, etc.). So why play it? If you need to change the general physics of the game and w/e else to make it viable, whats the point. None of the editing your trying to do is going to be tournament legal anyway. The logic behind some of you people who play brawl astounds me. BTW if you think i hate brawl i don't, there are many aspects of the game i do hate but in general its a fun game, its just not a tournament game and never will be.

 

[Firus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmomHoEG5g0
>_>

A) That is Brawl+. This proves nothing. Okay, so the physics are different. BUT HACKING WILL NEVER BECOME TOURNEY STANDARD, THUS IT IS IRRELEVANT.

B) As The Dragon said, it's hacking to make it more like Melee...
So why the hell don't we just play Melee?

C) As (s)he also said, this means that in order to be good, Brawl needs to be hacked. Doesn't say much for it, does it?

D) If this is completely misinterpreting what you were saying, it's your fault. You really ought to include something in a post like that to indicate what the video is directed at. Quote someone, include a sentence asking a question answered by the video (e.g. "So Brawl can't be competitive, hm?"), something so people don't have to guess...just a suggestion.

 

[ndayday]

I in no way support Brawl+, but it's not supposed to be like Melee, it's supposed to be a game that is deeper then Brawl. But that's not what this blog is about...

What if Brawl gets so low, it'll become like Melee is now and Melee will become how Brawl is now? (In terms of people attracted to the game) Ha, that will be the day...<3 Melee

 

[SkylerOcon]

For the love of whatever you believe in, SHUT THE HELL UP.

Both sides in this debate are stupid. Brawl fans and Melee fans don't seem to get that one person likes this game and one person likes the other. It's okay if you want to give your opinion, but with all the flamy posts going on lately, it's just getting annoying.

Seriously, nobody cares if you think Melee is better than Brawl or if Brawl is better than Melee.

 

[Amide]

You've already posted a thread like this, but I yet have to reply to this one too!

Something that you said really clicked with me. Waveshining is fun. Float canceling is fun, pillaring, rest combos, knee... they're all awesome things that have disappeared in Brawl. Brawl was dumbed down and wasn't made right etc. Snake's tilts, ddd's chainthrow, tornado etc. aren't fun.

One point I don't understand is this: You say that DDD's chainthrow is really "gay," yet it's fun to wobble. What's so much better with wobbling? That point is just stupid.

 

[The Dragon]

A) That is Brawl+. This proves nothing. Okay, so the physics are different. BUT HACKING WILL NEVER BECOME TOURNEY STANDARD, THUS IT IS IRRELEVANT.

B) As The Dragon said, it's hacking to make it more like Melee...
So why the hell don't we just play Melee?

C) As (s)he also said, this means that in order to be good, Brawl needs to be hacked. Doesn't say much for it, does it?

D) If this is completely misinterpreting what you were saying, it's your fault. You really ought to include something in a post like that to indicate what the video is directed at. Quote someone, include a sentence asking a question answered by the video (e.g. "So Brawl can't be competitive, hm?"), something so people don't have to guess...just a suggestion.

it must be stated that i am indeed a he

and in defense of the OP about wobbling vs ddd chain throw...

ddd infinite requires you to (A) grab the opponent and (B) hit down on the control stick.. then (C) repeat until percentage is high enough to garentee a kill... anyone can do that..

wobbling requires person using ice climbers to time hits from nana and popo for an extended amount of time.. which requires hours upon hours of practice.. the right situation and a lot of patience... plus the balls to play as the ice climbers... and if you couldn't figure it out yet this is very difficult to accomplish hence why not nearly as many can do this and why it is an excepted tactic.. plus if your good enough you can actually mash out of this infinite

i don't play the ice climbers but thats the gist of it from what i've seen my friend do.

and fun part is actually being able to pull off this move which requires much skill to do rather then the boring d-throw infinite that requires no talent at all

 

[8AngeL8]

I hate topics like this. The reason everyone cries about Brawl being inferior is because they people who hate it spend their time here complaining, while the rest of us are having fun and getting better at Brawl.

 

[Slush]

Brawl is definitely less technical, and as a result of that we DO get more players, however we also get more people that have no skill. Now the way I see this is that since my opponent and I are on the same, or rather, very closely to the same technical level, I must rely on more than just reactions and muscle memory, but now I have to use my head, much more than I ever did in melee.

It's all about mindgames and unpredictability, and thats why I love Brawl. I have faced off against people that are much better technically than me, but because I use my head I have won. And even when I don't win I have still made comebacks by being unpredictable, and by using a totally different mindset to stay alive when I should have been dead %60 ago.