Critique Super Smash Bros.

[meleebrawler]

I find it interesting how upset people get over the peripheral game modes in Smash. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I only play Smash for SMASH. I want a huge roster of semi-balanced fighters, tons of diverse stages, and the ability to play matches online. Ultimate knocks fighters and stages out of the park and online is good enough (though far from ideal) that I still very much enjoy it.

I don't give a rat's ass about a story mode, classic mode, spirit boards, home run contest, gimmick challenges, or any other sideshows that are tacked on to Smash games. I've played about 300 hours of Ultimate and haven't spent even one second on the World of Light, and probably never will.

If there's enough demand for an adventure / RPG / platformer featuring Smash characters, I wish Nintendo would just make a separate game altogether.

Oh no, you're not the minority. It's just that the masses who play Smash for it's selling point don't feel the need to argue about it. The kids who just want to make Pikachu zap Mario are innumerable.

Lemme put it this way: what is more likely to sell, as DLC or otherwise: Target Test or a character pack? Modes can only appeal to very specific tastes, whereas even unwanted characters can provide value in other ways.

This is why I argue that even if Nintendo continues to churn out Smash Bros games until the end of time, each installment will show further diminishing returns. As far as base game goes, I too got bored of Ultimate faster than any other game in the series. Granted, I have over 500 hours on Ultimate due to grinding and competitive online, but it's become more of something I force myself to do in order to stay ahead of my friends when we get together to play.

Long story short, the franchise can only do so much to improve graphics, sharpen mechanics and polish the few extracurricular modes that it has. The character roster itself is really the heart and sole of the franchise and the only real draw that future games would have assuming they don't drop a ton of characters that result in Ultimate becoming a long-term fan holdout like Melee. This is why I think that Smash really needs to up it's game (so to speak) when it comes to single player modes, especially a story mode that reflects platformer exploration akin to Subspace emissary and Smash Run. The fighting format of Smash fits that kind of mode well and allows for a lot more fan service in the form of enemies from every franchise. The pseudo-RPG elements with stickers/spirits was a welcome addition, if only half-baked. It would be nice to see a little more depth there in the future.

There is only so much you can do to expand level design with such a diverse cast as well. Either the levels are tailored to the point of being incredibly gimmicky and disconnected with the narrative, or they're generic enough to be ripe for abuse with certain characters, or just plain dull and repetitive.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

In that case, I find that ironic, since I (and many others, if this thread's any indication) got bored of Ultimate more quickly than any other Smash game to date. If Sakurai wanted to get people to play Smash for a long time, making the core gameplay fun and rewarding would be a start IMO. (Refer to my previous post on the matter for elaboration.)

To be fair, you are a fraction of the entire consumer base so I wouldn't use your sentiment as an accurate representation of the state of the game. And I would also add that the core gameplay in Ultimate is already fun and rewarding as it is, you simply have to work for it similarly to other fighting games. But the impression I get from you is that you don't want to feel rewarded for learning and playing the game; you want to be rewarded for merely pressing buttons. Instant gratification if you will.

To better examplify the point I'm trying to make I'll use Samus, who is a character that is often surrounded my misconception. People oftentimes think that she is bad due to her playstyle not leaning completely into one specific archetype. But dedicated Samus players have labbed her kit extensively with their findings showing that she has a proficient combo game alongside her zoning tools, showing that her design has more depth than it shows. Samus also happens to control very well and flow through the air quitely nicely to be able to position herself for follow ups, so I don't understand the criticism that this game doesn't feel good when controlling characters. For reference on what they compiled on Samus, I'll link the Smash 4

and the Ultimate

which are very long.

The mediocre players will always find plenty of reasons to complain and justify their own mediocrity. It's a coping mechanism to avoid taking any responsibility and build this flawless persona of them, thus overlooking the depths that this game has to offer. Sound familiar? Good players on the other hand work with that they have and keep an open mind about learning like the capable people who made those videos. The fact that they can play Samus the way they do shows the rewarding potential in her kit. And it's thanks to their findings that Samus player like myself have a better understanding of the character.

 

[Ze Diglett]

To be fair, you are a fraction of the entire consumer base so I wouldn't use your sentiment as an accurate representation of the state of the game. And I would also add that the core gameplay in Ultimate is already fun and rewarding as it is, you simply have to work for it similarly to other fighting games. But the impression I get from you is that you don't want to feel rewarded for learning and playing the game; you want to be rewarded for merely pressing buttons. Instant gratification if you will.

To better examplify the point I'm trying to make I'll use Samus, who is a character that is often surrounded my misconception. People oftentimes think that she is bad due to her playstyle not leaning completely into one specific archetype. But dedicated Samus players have labbed her kit extensively with their findings showing that she has a proficient combo game alongside her zoning tools, showing that her design has more depth than it shows. Samus also happens to control very well and flow through the air quitely nicely to be able to position herself for follow ups, so I don't understand the criticism that this game doesn't feel good when controlling characters. For reference on what they compiled on Samus, I'll link the Smash 4

and the Ultimate

which are very long.

The mediocre players will always find plenty of reasons to complain and justify their own mediocrity. It's a coping mechanism to avoid taking any responsibility and build this flawless persona of them, thus overlooking the depths that this game has to offer. Sound familiar? Good players on the other hand work with that they have and keep an open mind about learning like the capable people who made those videos. The fact that they can play Samus the way they do shows the rewarding potential in her kit. And it's thanks to their findings that Samus player like myself have a better understanding of the character.

I mean, I do like being rewarded for learning and playing a game. I saw Super Meat Boy through to 106% completion, and even got most of the no-death achievements in the Steam version; that's not exactly a game you can just pick up and win. Need another example? Finished Hollow Knight all the way to 114% (which is the highest completion percentage possible in that game, if you're not familiar). Or maybe it's specifically a multiplayer example you're looking for? Team Fortress 2, Rivals of Aether, Tekken 7. All primarily multiplayer games with significant depth to them that I went ahead and learned. I won't sit here and act like I'm some sort of god at any of these games, but I sat down with them long enough to learn them to at least a semi-proficient degree (and am still going with most of them, as a matter of fact). But sure, instant gratification.

Why did I stick with the games I listed and not Smash? Simple: I actually felt rewarded for my time with those games. Super Meat Boy and Hollow Knight drew me in with their intuitive platforming and engaging combat/exploration respectively, despite both featuring some of the most frustrating challenges I've ever experienced in a video game. TF2 and Tekken 7 both have very high skill ceilings, and most importantly, make engaging other players its own reward by making the movement and combat feel both fun and fair. The movement in Rivals, as I've mentioned, is fluid enough for me to feel rewarded for spending time with it, to the point that I honestly feel better with that game in <100 hours than I do with Ultimate in >500 hours. Unlike Smash, I've demonstrably improved as a player to a level I'm comfortable with by playing these games. To me, that says something about the game itself. I am willing to work for reward in games; hell, if I didn't want to work for reward, I'd just go download Candy Crush or something and play that all day instead of sinking hundreds of hours into games like TF2 and, yes, Smash. The issue is that unlike other skill-oriented games I've played, Smash has all of the work and virtually none of the reward. It's not intrinsically rewarding in the way that mastering a combo in a traditional fighter is, for instance. I mentioned this in my original post on the matter, but Ultimate's movement is just way too stiff and restrictive for me to play the way I like - go play ten minutes of Rivals and then switch back to Ultimate and you'll immediately see what I mean. If it wasn't that way, I'd probably still main Mewtwo in this game as I set out to at launch, but it's because of that (and the fact that M2 is just a mishmash of contradictory qualities as is) that I have to resort to a slowpoke like Dedede on the rare occasion that I do take up the game.

 

[meleebrawler]

If the core gameplay is highly unenjoyable (also very subjective) for someone, how is any amount of modes going to change that?

Even in the possible scenario where a story is theoretically good enough to make one willing to power through any frustration to see it through, it's just delaying the inevitable dropping of the game, a time period vastly eclipsed by people playing with others and labbing.

And that's assuming they don't decide playing through is too much of a hassle and settle for a Let's Play instead...

 

[Firox]

If the core gameplay is highly unenjoyable (also very subjective) for someone, how is any amount of modes going to change that?

Even in the possible scenario where a story is theoretically good enough to make one willing to power through any frustration to see it through, it's just delaying the inevitable dropping of the game, a time period vastly eclipsed by people playing with others and labbing.

And that's assuming they don't decide playing through is too much of a hassle and settle for a Let's Play instead...

I mean, at the end of the day, it's obvious that the true life-blood of Smash Bros (and pretty much any fighting game) lies in it's competitive fanbase. Casuals will come and go like the wind, so I guess in the long run, there's only so much value in catering to them. Granted, they arguably comprise the majority of buyers which is why Nintendo likes to cater to them so much, but as far as the longevity of the game goes, it comes down to the polish of combat and those with the drive to push its limits to the upmost. Still, it would be interesting for someone to do a study on how better 1-player modes would affect sales. Sure, it would probably only bring in more casuals, but from Nintendo's perspective, that would mean more sales which is their true goal in the end anyway. And let's be honest here, as long as Smash retains it's massive roster and polished gameplay, more/better 1-player modes could only make the game better for everyone.

 

[Necro'lic]

I think people are starting to understand that the absolute best way to create a game is having a strong core experience that is easy to get into. That framework appeals to both casual and competitive players. Personally, I got bored of Ultimate for the same reason I get bored of every smash game. Because I'm not THAT into fighting games; even ones I'm into like Smash and Pokken I leave eventually, and I get obsessed with another game (in this case, Monster Hunter). But that being said, it would be prudent for Sakurai to figure out how to appeal to the core audience without alienating the casual audience, and luckily, Smash is a big enough franchise that, at least when online matchmaking is concerned, the two groups shouldn't come into contact, provided it's working correctly.

Sadly, Melee being the competitive game that it is was mostly due to it being rushed and buggy. And while some might want to argue about the "buggy" part, the semantics don't really matter because one thing is clear: Melee's core gameplay was not designed intentionally, and thus the Smash team and Sakurai most likely don't understand how to create a well balanced, well designed competitive game intentionally, that can sustain itself for almost two decades.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

I mean, I do like being rewarded for learning and playing a game. I saw Super Meat Boy through to 106% completion, and even got most of the no-death achievements in the Steam version; that's not exactly a game you can just pick up and win. Need another example? Finished Hollow Knight all the way to 114% (which is the highest completion percentage possible in that game, if you're not familiar). Or maybe it's specifically a multiplayer example you're looking for? Team Fortress 2, Rivals of Aether, Tekken 7. All primarily multiplayer games with significant depth to them that I went ahead and learned. I won't sit here and act like I'm some sort of god at any of these games, but I sat down with them long enough to learn them to at least a semi-proficient degree (and am still going with most of them, as a matter of fact). But sure, instant gratification.

Why did I stick with the games I listed and not Smash? Simple: I actually felt rewarded for my time with those games. Super Meat Boy and Hollow Knight drew me in with their intuitive platforming and engaging combat/exploration respectively, despite both featuring some of the most frustrating challenges I've ever experienced in a video game. TF2 and Tekken 7 both have very high skill ceilings, and most importantly, make engaging other players its own reward by making the movement and combat feel both fun and fair. The movement in Rivals, as I've mentioned, is fluid enough for me to feel rewarded for spending time with it, to the point that I honestly feel better with that game in <100 hours than I do with Ultimate in >500 hours. Unlike Smash, I've demonstrably improved as a player to a level I'm comfortable with by playing these games. To me, that says something about the game itself. I am willing to work for reward in games; hell, if I didn't want to work for reward, I'd just go download Candy Crush or something and play that all day instead of sinking hundreds of hours into games like TF2 and, yes, Smash. The issue is that unlike other skill-oriented games I've played, Smash has all of the work and virtually none of the reward. It's not intrinsically rewarding in the way that mastering a combo in a traditional fighter is, for instance. I mentioned this in my original post on the matter, but Ultimate's movement is just way too stiff and restrictive for me to play the way I like - go play ten minutes of Rivals and then switch back to Ultimate and you'll immediately see what I mean. If it wasn't that way, I'd probably still main Mewtwo in this game as I set out to at launch, but it's because of that (and the fact that M2 is just a mishmash of contradictory qualities as is) that I have to resort to a slowpoke like Dedede on the rare occasion that I do take up the game.

We have people in Smash who have managed to rise above the average skill level and continue to dig deeper into the game. The fact that we can see people who lab and continue to put out guides for certain characters is a testament of the reward the game has to offer. Some like Samus have higher curve than others if what you seek to achieve is optimal play. Perhaps this eluded you because you simply aren't cut out for it and that's ok because everyone has their limitations. Like how I don't play sniper classes in FPSs because I have terrible aim. So maybe you peaked and your best just isn't that good.

The movement being stiff and restrictive is something that still doesn't make sense to me. I can pick Samus and DK and free flow through the air seamlessly. Samus even got the Neutral B buff this time around which gives her more movement options. I main Mewtwo as well and I can move around on the ground and air with no problem, with only his clunky DJ taking some time to get adjusted to. But if you are using Dedede primarily, a character with low mobility, then no **** you feel stiff and restrictive. I will say however that sticking with the slower or weaker characters as the reason you can't move or play well is a bad justification, as it takes the responsibility off the hands of the player and puts the blame entirely on the fighter and the game. This Lucas player clearly doesn't seem to be having trouble moving around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncVGfspDMc4&t=5s

 

[Perkilator]

You know, it's a shame there aren't enough of these personalized victory screen quotes, not even cross-series ones (the closest we have is saying "To darkness" to "dark" characters). I even came up with a few myself:

- vs. : “That’s for the Centurions!”

- vs. : “Sorry, but I’m no little angel.”

- vs. and: “Never dull with you around here!”

- vs. : "When will you fakers EVER learn?"

-When wins against or , this plays: https://youtu.be/YS6VFMYGAl0

- vs. : “Where have I seen that aura...?”

- vs. : "How can you call yourself a dog?"

- vs. any large or fat characters: “You’ve got lots of work to do.”

- vs. : “This is one angel you can’t slaughter!”

- vs. : “It’s too dangerous to fight alone.”

- vs. Popo without Nana or without Luma: “Don’t worry, you’re not powerless.”

- vs. : “Let’s spar again soon.”

- vs. : “Just like old times, huh, Ryu?”

- vs. or : “Light or dark…which one?”

- vs. or : “Nothing personal, children.”

- vs. : “Even a goddess has fell to me.”

- and (team battle victory): Ken tosses Terry’s hat to him and Terry puts it on.

- vs. any Fire Emblem character: “I see potential in you.”

 

[UserKev]

I doubt anyone still wants a Story Mode. It makes sense to move on to clinging on to hope for single player modes because the wish is simply the

You know, it's a shame there aren't enough of these personalized victory screen quotes, not even cross-series ones (the closest we have is saying "To darkness" to "dark" characters). I even came up with a few myself:

- vs. : “That’s for the Centurions!”

- vs. : “Sorry, but I’m no little angel.”

- vs. and: “Never dull with you around here!”
- vs. : "When will you fakers EVER learn?"

- vs. : “Where have I seen that aura...?”

- vs. : "How can you call yourself a dog?"

- vs. any large or fat characters: “You’ve got lots of work to do.”

- vs. : “This is one angel you can’t slaughter!”

- vs. Popo without Nana or without Luma: “Don’t worry, you’re not powerless.”

- vs. : “Let’s spar again soon.”

- vs. : “Just like old times, huh, Ryu?”

- vs. or : “Light or dark…which one?”

- vs. or : “Nothing personal, children.”

- vs. : “Even a goddess has fell to me.”

- and (team battle victory): Ken tosses Terry’s hat to him and Terry puts it on.

- vs. any Fire Emblem character: “I see potential in you.”

This is absolutely brilliant. Great find there, bud. Would definitely make Smash more interesting.

 

[Ze Diglett]

We have people in Smash who have managed to rise above the average skill level and continue to dig deeper into the game. The fact that we can see people who lab and continue to put out guides for certain characters is a testament of the reward the game has to offer. Some like Samus have higher curve than others if what you seek to achieve is optimal play. Perhaps this eluded you because you simply aren't cut out for it and that's ok because everyone has their limitations. Like how I don't play sniper classes in FPSs because I have terrible aim. So maybe you peaked and your best just isn't that good.

The movement being stiff and restrictive is something that still doesn't make sense to me. I can pick Samus and DK and free flow through the air seamlessly. Samus even got the Neutral B buff this time around which gives her more movement options. I main Mewtwo as well and I can move around on the ground and air with no problem, with only his clunky DJ taking some time to get adjusted to. But if you are using Dedede primarily, a character with low mobility, then no **** you feel stiff and restrictive. I will say however that sticking with the slower or weaker characters as the reason you can't move or play well is a bad justification, as it takes the responsibility off the hands of the player and puts the blame entirely on the fighter and the game. This Lucas player clearly doesn't seem to be having trouble moving around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncVGfspDMc4&t=5s

Fair enough to the Dedede point; he is one of, if not the least mobile character in the game, after all. However, my point in illustrating my character choice is that I settled for Dedede mainly because I couldn't stand to play as any of the more mobile fighters - if I hate the movement so much, might as well pick a character who barely moves to begin with, right? But in pretty much any game I play, I like playing unorthodox aggro characters that put out lots of damage. I don't like hanging back and waiting for my opponent to make a mistake because that's just boring IMO, and I also don't feel like I'm doing anything if I'm only bringing my opponent 3% closer to death with every hit. None of the characters currently in Smash really scratch that itch for me while also being fun to control.

Now, lemme clarify what I mean when I say the game doesn't feel good to control, since I take it I haven't explained myself very well. It doesn't really come down to one specific issue, in my book, but a variety of things; to illustrate my point, I'll use Mewtwo as an example, since he's probably my most played character other than Dedede and one that people generally consider to be pretty mobile, unlike him. Mewtwo has top 10 ground speed and top 3 air speed, so you'd expect him to handle like a dream in this game. However, his traction isn't as good as his movement stats would suggest, and what's more, his air acceleration is downright bad (on par with Ridley's and Incineroar's, for reference), meaning he can't weave in and out of his opponent's space as well as it feels like he should be able to. So now we're left with a featherweight character with a superheavy-sized hurtbox and really good movement stats at first glance, but poor air acceleration holding down what would otherwise be a very fluid and versatile character. Now, this is just one character I take issue with, but there are lots of characters in this game with weird inconsistencies and such that hold them back from being as good at what they do as they could (or, perhaps, should) be.

Granted, that isn't really about the movement itself, but I do take issue with that as well. People have ******* about the buffer enough that I shouldn't even have to mention it, but a much worse offender, in my opinion, is the input lag. It's common knowledge at this point that Ultimate has the worst input lag in the entire series to date, to the point that no matter what setup you're running, you're dealing with a minimum 6 frames of input lag, and that's if you're using the optimal controller setup and the connection's perfect. You can argue that this is something we just have to deal with, but frankly, if Street Fighter V could cut its abysmal input lag nearly in half via a patch, I fail to see why Ultimate couldn't do the same thing. Sure, other modern fighting games might have input lag comparable to Ult's, but that's different. Trad fighters are inherently way more grounded than Smash; you don't have people flying across the stage trying to catch each other in those games, so I feel it's less noticeable and problematic there. And even besides that, there's other things, too, like the fact that it seemingly takes forever just to dash and come to a stop/turn around in this game, or the myriad of weird, obtuse tech like wavebouncing that I honestly doubt are even intended with how finicky they are to pull off at times, or the fact that directional airdodges, for some reason, have as much as a full second of endlag on top of being limited use. (I get it, airdodging was an epidemic in Smash 4, but they didn't have to make it outright bad.)

Hopefully I've explained myself at least somewhat well in this post. Maybe it really does come down to my character choices more than anything else, but frankly, I don't see how people still play this game when it feels as stiff to play as it does (to me, at least).

 

[UserKev]

Spirits are a welcomed addition and were long overdo. I would love to see more from them other than needing to raise them.

 

[Firox]

Fair enough to the Dedede point; he is one of, if not the least mobile character in the game, after all. However, my point in illustrating my character choice is that I settled for Dedede mainly because I couldn't stand to play as any of the more mobile fighters - if I hate the movement so much, might as well pick a character who barely moves to begin with, right? But in pretty much any game I play, I like playing unorthodox aggro characters that put out lots of damage. I don't like hanging back and waiting for my opponent to make a mistake because that's just boring IMO, and I also don't feel like I'm doing anything if I'm only bringing my opponent 3% closer to death with every hit. None of the characters currently in Smash really scratch that itch for me while also being fun to control.

Now, lemme clarify what I mean when I say the game doesn't feel good to control, since I take it I haven't explained myself very well. It doesn't really come down to one specific issue, in my book, but a variety of things; to illustrate my point, I'll use Mewtwo as an example, since he's probably my most played character other than Dedede and one that people generally consider to be pretty mobile, unlike him. Mewtwo has top 10 ground speed and top 3 air speed, so you'd expect him to handle like a dream in this game. However, his traction isn't as good as his movement stats would suggest, and what's more, his air acceleration is downright bad (on par with Ridley's and Incineroar's, for reference), meaning he can't weave in and out of his opponent's space as well as it feels like he should be able to. So now we're left with a featherweight character with a superheavy-sized hurtbox and really good movement stats at first glance, but poor air acceleration holding down what would otherwise be a very fluid and versatile character. Now, this is just one character I take issue with, but there are lots of characters in this game with weird inconsistencies and such that hold them back from being as good at what they do as they could (or, perhaps, should) be.

Granted, that isn't really about the movement itself, but I do take issue with that as well. People have ******* about the buffer enough that I shouldn't even have to mention it, but a much worse offender, in my opinion, is the input lag. It's common knowledge at this point that Ultimate has the worst input lag in the entire series to date, to the point that no matter what setup you're running, you're dealing with a minimum 6 frames of input lag, and that's if you're using the optimal controller setup and the connection's perfect. You can argue that this is something we just have to deal with, but frankly, if Street Fighter V could cut its abysmal input lag nearly in half via a patch, I fail to see why Ultimate couldn't do the same thing. Sure, other modern fighting games might have input lag comparable to Ult's, but that's different. Trad fighters are inherently way more grounded than Smash; you don't have people flying across the stage trying to catch each other in those games, so I feel it's less noticeable and problematic there. And even besides that, there's other things, too, like the fact that it seemingly takes forever just to dash and come to a stop/turn around in this game, or the myriad of weird, obtuse tech like wavebouncing that I honestly doubt are even intended with how finicky they are to pull off at times, or the fact that directional airdodges, for some reason, have as much as a full second of endlag on top of being limited use. (I get it, airdodging was an epidemic in Smash 4, but they didn't have to make it outright bad.)

Hopefully I've explained myself at least somewhat well in this post. Maybe it really does come down to my character choices more than anything else, but frankly, I don't see how people still play this game when it feels as stiff to play as it does (to me, at least).

Couple things I wanted to point out:

-Firstly, I totally feel your pain with Mewtwo, but to be fair, that's more of a Mewtwo problem than a mechanical problem. As a Greninja main, I have zero issues with the fluidity of movement because of his god-tier mobility and fast-falling qualities. Greninja also has a lot of decently powerful, low-lag landing options with good hitboxes that Mewtwo doesn't have. I think the biggest issue with Mewtwo is his weight. Even canonically speaking, it makes NO SENSE that they made him so light. M2 is a big boy and should easily be heavier than the likes of Mario, Cloud and Wolf. I think if they doubled his weight, his viability would skyrocket and most complaints would cease.

-I gotta admit, the input lag was HEAVILY jarring at first, especially in the transition from Sm4sh, but I've since gotten used to it. One thing that people have to consider though is that there is a strategic advantage to the 6 frames of input lag. Firstly, we have the new dash-into-anything mechanic. When you consider how tricky it can be to end a sprint with a forward smash, it starts to make sense why you would need a decently sized window for the game to recognize the left stick going back to neutral before you hit forward on the c-stick. Secondly, Ultimate features a frame-perfect buffering system that previous games didn't. Sometimes 6 frames (1/10 of a second) is how much time you need to react to a hit and input the follow up. For this reason, I would argue that the frame-perfect buffer has resulted in MORE combos being landed in Ultimate than in Sm4sh. Granted, I still think the input lag kinda sucks, but it isn't without at least SOME merit.

 

[meleebrawler]

Couple things I wanted to point out:

-Firstly, I totally feel your pain with Mewtwo, but to be fair, that's more of a Mewtwo problem than a mechanical problem. As a Greninja main, I have zero issues with the fluidity of movement because of his god-tier mobility and fast-falling qualities. Greninja also has a lot of decently powerful, low-lag landing options with good hitboxes that Mewtwo doesn't have. I think the biggest issue with Mewtwo is his weight. Even canonically speaking, it makes NO SENSE that they made him so light. M2 is a big boy and should easily be heavier than the likes of Mario, Cloud and Wolf. I think if they doubled his weight, his viability would skyrocket and most complaints would cease.

-I gotta admit, the input lag was HEAVILY jarring at first, especially in the transition from Sm4sh, but I've since gotten used to it. One thing that people have to consider though is that there is a strategic advantage to the 6 frames of input lag. Firstly, we have the new dash-into-anything mechanic. When you consider how tricky it can be to end a sprint with a forward smash, it starts to make sense why you would need a decently sized window for the game to recognize the left stick going back to neutral before you hit forward on the c-stick. Secondly, Ultimate features a frame-perfect buffering system that previous games didn't. Sometimes 6 frames (1/10 of a second) is how much time you need to react to a hit and input the follow up. For this reason, I would argue that the frame-perfect buffer has resulted in MORE combos being landed in Ultimate than in Sm4sh. Granted, I still think the input lag kinda sucks, but it isn't without at least SOME merit.

Weight won't do much for Mewtwo. Most it would do is let him be juggled for twice as long.

More to the point, his frailty is really only a small factor behind his unpopularity. The real reason is just not having any singular option that lets him win in many situations. Top players don't like the Pits or Banjo, a decently heavy guy himself, for this reason. Top players don't want versatile options, they want dominant options.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Now, lemme clarify what I mean when I say the game doesn't feel good to control, since I take it I haven't explained myself very well. It doesn't really come down to one specific issue, in my book, but a variety of things; to illustrate my point, I'll use Mewtwo as an example, since he's probably my most played character other than Dedede and one that people generally consider to be pretty mobile, unlike him. Mewtwo has top 10 ground speed and top 3 air speed, so you'd expect him to handle like a dream in this game. However, his traction isn't as good as his movement stats would suggest, and what's more, his air acceleration is downright bad (on par with Ridley's and Incineroar's, for reference), meaning he can't weave in and out of his opponent's space as well as it feels like he should be able to. So now we're left with a featherweight character with a superheavy-sized hurtbox and really good movement stats at first glance, but poor air acceleration holding down what would otherwise be a very fluid and versatile character. Now, this is just one character I take issue with, but there are lots of characters in this game with weird inconsistencies and such that hold them back from being as good at what they do as they could (or, perhaps, should) be.

Mewtwo definitely has those issues going on for him. But I'd argue that those alone wouldn't be enough to hold him back, Just take a look at Smash 4 Mewtwo where he was easily a top ten contender. Those attributes you mentioned weren't changed too much on his transition from that game to Ultimate, as a matter of fact his speed, mobility, weight and traction were increased, but despite that why is Ultimate Mewtwo considered worse? I can tell you why. Mewtwo got a lot of mileage out of his Nair confirms in Smash 4 which could easily combo into Dtilt, another Nair, Grab, etc., but in Ultimate they increased the ending lag and they also made it more difficult to control where the opponent would land. They also increased the ending lag on his Dtilt making it less safe and it's almost impossible to combo Dtilt from Fair into Fair.

The other major reason is the change to air dodging. I think overall that that was a positive change, but it hurted Mewtwo the most. He had the best air dodging game in Smash 4. It allowed you to play mindgames and improve your survivability upon landing. It helped that he had Confusion as well which acted as a third jump but that was nerfed by removing the momentum from that move.

I consider the above to be the most important factors that need to be addressed in Mewtwo's kit. Weight and hurtbox size aren't as essential, despite the fact that the popular opinion is that they need to be buffed. Buffing Nair, Dtilt and Confusion is much more important. Confusion doesn't need to be changed into an entirely new move as you suggested earlier. The move itself has very good utility; it's a command grab and a reflector hybrid, but it's one of the worst reflectors in the game to throw on reaction. Shave the start up from 10 frames to 7 or 6 so it can be on par with other reflectors. The command grab portion is already a decent tool to throw on Neutral at close quarters since it forces your opponent to make a decision on the spot and you can react to that. I wouldn't say it needs to true combo into moves, but it's worth mentioning that you can combo mid air Confusion into a Fair kill confirm at high percentages. And make it so that you can keep momentum in the air while using, that will give Mewtwo more survivability options.

Despite that, I still like using Mewtwo in Ultimate. The engine changes actually make him more mobile for me.

Granted, that isn't really about the movement itself, but I do take issue with that as well. People have ******* about the buffer enough that I shouldn't even have to mention it, but a much worse offender, in my opinion, is the input lag. It's common knowledge at this point that Ultimate has the worst input lag in the entire series to date, to the point that no matter what setup you're running, you're dealing with a minimum 6 frames of input lag, and that's if you're using the optimal controller setup and the connection's perfect. You can argue that this is something we just have to deal with, but frankly, if Street Fighter V could cut its abysmal input lag nearly in half via a patch, I fail to see why Ultimate couldn't do the same thing. Sure, other modern fighting games might have input lag comparable to Ult's, but that's different. Trad fighters are inherently way more grounded than Smash; you don't have people flying across the stage trying to catch each other in those games, so I feel it's less noticeable and problematic there. And even besides that, there's other things, too, like the fact that it seemingly takes forever just to dash and come to a stop/turn around in this game, or the myriad of weird, obtuse tech like wavebouncing that I honestly doubt are even intended with how finicky they are to pull off at times, or the fact that directional airdodges, for some reason, have as much as a full second of endlag on top of being limited use. (I get it, airdodging was an epidemic in Smash 4, but they didn't have to make it outright bad.)

The additional input lag is true which is unfortunate. Don't know if these kind of changes can be properly addressed with a patch so we'll have to wait and see. But it's a matter of getting used to. If the game were that unresponsive we wouldn't have players left and right moving around like speed demons or achieving combo strings. I'm not saying it isn't a problem but I don't think it's big enough to devoid Ultimate's gameplay of its merit. The only time I can think of where the buffer rears it's ugly head and becomes truly noticeable it's in laggy online sessions.

Other than that, the mobility gripe seems more like a player issue but then again not everyone has the same experience.

 

[meleebrawler]

Mewtwo definitely has those issues going on for him. But I'd argue that those alone wouldn't be enough to hold him back, Just take a look at Smash 4 Mewtwo where he was easily a top ten contender. Those attributes you mentioned weren't changed too much on his transition from that game to Ultimate, as a matter of fact his speed, mobility, weight and traction were increased, but despite that why is Ultimate Mewtwo considered worse? I can tell you why. Mewtwo got a lot of mileage out of his Nair confirms in Smash 4 which could easily combo into Dtilt, another Nair, Grab, etc., but in Ultimate they increased the ending lag and they also made it more difficult to control where the opponent would land. They also increased the ending lag on his Dtilt making it less safe and it's almost impossible to combo Dtilt from Fair into Fair.

The other major reason is the change to air dodging. I think overall that that was a positive change, but it hurted Mewtwo the most. He had the best air dodging game in Smash 4. It allowed you to play mindgames and improve your survivability upon landing. It helped that he had Confusion as well which acted as a third jump but that was nerfed by removing the momentum from that move.

I consider the above to be the most important factors that need to be addressed in Mewtwo's kit. Weight and hurtbox size aren't as essential, despite the fact that the popular opinion is that they need to be buffed. Buffing Nair, Dtilt and Confusion is much more important. Confusion doesn't need to be changed into an entirely new move as you suggested earlier. The move itself has very good utility; it's a command grab and a reflector hybrid, but it's one of the worst reflectors in the game to throw on reaction. Shave the start up from 10 frames to 7 or 6 so it can be on par with other reflectors. The command grab portion is already a decent tool to throw on Neutral at close quarters since it forces your opponent to make a decision on the spot and you can react to that. I wouldn't say it needs to true combo into moves, but it's worth mentioning that you can combo mid air Confusion into a Fair kill confirm at high percentages. And make it so that you can keep momentum in the air while using, that will give Mewtwo more survivability options.

Despite that, I still like using Mewtwo in Ultimate. The engine changes actually make him more mobile for me.



The additional input lag is true which is unfortunate. Don't know if these kind of changes can be properly addressed with a patch so we'll have to wait and see. But it's a matter of getting used to. If the game were that unresponsive we wouldn't have players left and right moving around like speed demons or achieving combo strings. I'm not saying it isn't a problem but I don't think it's big enough to devoid Ultimate's gameplay of its merit. The only time I can think of where the buffer rears it's ugly head and becomes truly noticeable it's in laggy online sessions.

Other than that, the mobility gripe seems more like a player issue but then again not everyone has the same experience.

Mewtwo is more fun to me in Ultimate despite the added disadvantage troubles, because there is more merit to using all of his moves instead of just a small handful, which was kind of endemic in a lot of characters in Smash 4. Not surprising many top players, especially Zer0 underwent a crisis of faith in the beginning with less catch-all options to abuse.

 

[UserKev]

World of Light is exceptionally entertaining, reasonable and overall bright approach is superior to Brawl's Subspace's bland feeling landscapes.

 

[Lenidem]

World of Light is exceptionally entertaining, reasonable and overall bright approach is superior to Brawl's Subspace's bland feeling landscapes.

I never had Brawl so I never played Subspace, but I was not entertained at all by World of Light. I did all that was required to unlock stuff, then dropped it with relief.

 

[UserKev]

I never had Brawl so I never played Subspace, but I was not entertained at all by World of Light. I did all that was required to unlock stuff, then dropped it with relief.

World of Light can be extremely frustrating and irksome but I can appreciate what the Mode tried to do. Its a generally memorable Mode. Unlike the previous Classic Mode/Smash Wii U and Brawl's Event Matches.

 

[Perkilator]

World of Light can be extremely frustrating and irksome but I can appreciate what the Mode tried to do. Its a generally memorable Mode. Unlike the previous Classic Mode/Smash Wii U and Brawl's Event Matches.

Speaking of Event matches, I am kind of sad Spirits are the closest thing we have to them. I would've loved to see one where you, as , have to protect from an army of on . I also, before Ultimate's release, imagined one where you have to fight as , which sort of came true via 's Classic Mode.

 

[RouffWestie]

Quite literally all I remember from all Spirit battles was Queen Metroid (I don't remember if that was it's name.)
Every other Spirit battle was some variation of Giant Metal DK -> DownB -> FSmash -> COMPLETE! or Giant Bowser -> FSmash -> COMPLETE! It's pretty useless having a mode that's supposed to make you clap when you get the reference for like 5 seconds when the entirety of the match is just me destroying the opponent in 3 seconds.

 

[Ze Diglett]

I would've liked WoL a lot more if it wasn't most of the same "fight the CPU(s) under a wacky condition" for almost the entire adventure. The boss fights were cool and I liked them all, but they were regrettably few and far between for how unique and imaginative they are. If nothing else, I would've appreciated more platforming segments like the final boss had. As it is now, it's just monotonous and stales very quickly IMO.

 

[Perkilator]

You know, I kinda actually wish the bosses who appeared in Dracula’s Castle actually DID something instead of just messing around (apart from Dracula himself, who’s a boss). I came up with some ideas:

Medusa: Petrifies fighters within her gaze.
Mummy: Throws its wrapping at fighters, slowing them down.
The Creature: Sends his Flea Man to attack fighters wildly; the Flea Man himself can be defeated.
Werewolf: Jumps around and occasionally rolls around.
Death: Attacks fighters with his scythe, K.O.-ing any fighters over 100% (much like the Death’s Scythe item).

 

[asia_catdog_blue]

You know, I kinda actually wish the bosses who appeared in Dracula’s Castle actually DID something instead of just messing around (apart from Dracula himself, who’s a boss). I came up with some ideas:

Medusa: Petrifies fighters within her gaze.
Mummy: Throws its wrapping at fighters, slowing them down.
The Creature: Sends his Flea Man to attack fighters wildly; the Flea Man himself can be defeated.
Death: Attacks fighters with his scythe, K.O.-ing any fighters over 100% (much like the Death’s Scythe item).

Wait... they left out the Giant Bat?

 

[Perkilator]

Wait... they left out the Giant Bat?

Actually…yeah, they did. Huh.

 

[Ze Diglett]

So here's a really good video, probably the best critique of Ultimate I've seen. It sums up a lot of what I don't like about the game better than I ever can, such as the character design and the general gamefeel. I'd highly recommend it to anyone passing by this thread, as I think Smash fans and non-fans alike could learn a lot from this video. You might even find you agree with this guy on some things you didn't even realize before.

 

[Perkilator]

Anyone else really miss the growing and shrinking animations? I understand it might’ve been difficult to program for nearly 80 and then some characters, but those animations were still cool.

 

[UserKev]

Anyone else really miss the growing and shrinking animations? I understand it might’ve been difficult to program for nearly 80 and then some characters, but those animations were still cool.

I once posted an argument for Smash's old authenticity that eventual exposure through the internet kind of took away that Smash specialty but now I disagree. The mystery is in fact still there in Smash 64, Melee and Brawl. I miss when Smash had an unknown feel and fluid-y when it was strictly Nintendo. Maybe video game advancement changed it but, I just miss the formula nature of old school Smash.

 

[OnyanRings]

Adeleine's not in the game.

 

[Perkilator]

On the topic of what bosses we have…I think it would’ve been interesting to unlock by fighting him first on , and then capping off with the Giga Bowser boss battle. Same with in his boss arena.

 

[asia_catdog_blue]

I found a MOD with N64 SFX

(sigh) I just... miss the N64 SFX. Do you?

 

[Perkilator]

I found a MOD with N64 SFX

(sigh) I just... miss the N64 SFX. Do you?

That would’ve made a great 1-time April Fool’s joke, along with some retro renders for the first 12 characters.

 

[meleebrawler]

Anyone else really miss the growing and shrinking animations? I understand it might’ve been difficult to program for nearly 80 and then some characters, but those animations were still cool.

It's nothing to do with programming difficulty. They just left you open, and killed the flow.

 

[Perkilator]

It's nothing to do with programming difficulty. They just left you open, and killed the flow.

Aw, now I’m even more bummed.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

So here's a really good video, probably the best critique of Ultimate I've seen. It sums up a lot of what I don't like about the game better than I ever can, such as the character design and the general gamefeel. I'd highly recommend it to anyone passing by this thread, as I think Smash fans and non-fans alike could learn a lot from this video. You might even find you agree with this guy on some things you didn't even realize before.

I saw this the other day and agreed with every point he made. I never realized some of my struggles to go through platforms and correctly respond out of shield were a result of the buffer system.

 

[Perkilator]

I like and as characters, but I would’ve seriously replaced them with any other FE character.

- with Celica or Arvis
- with Claude

 

[UserKev]

Smash Bros should have been underrated, becoming "universal" is the worst thing to happen to it. Definitely a case of Pandora's box.

 

[Perkilator]

Smash Bros should have been underrated, becoming "universal" is the worst thing to happen to it. Definitely a case of Pandora's box.

…Okay, without sounding mean, it seems like you only created this thread under the mentality of “POPULAR THING IS POPULAR, SO NOW IT’S BAD” instead of supporting legit criticism.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Anyone else really miss the growing and shrinking animations? I understand it might’ve been difficult to program for nearly 80 and then some characters, but those animations were still cool.

The growing and shrinking animations pretty much leave fighters wide open to punishment if the size change occurs on the ground. The removal of such animations helps to avoid such an issue.

 

[Perkilator]

The growing and shrinking animations pretty much leave fighters wide open to punishment if the size change occurs on the ground. The removal of such animations helps to avoid such an issue.

Fair point, but…animation wise, they were still cool.

Anyways, actual criticism: I’m glad ‘s in Smash Ultimate at all, but…am I the only one who thinks they were done dirty in terms of supplementart content? The 11 music are ONLY from the story (no Tempest of Seasons, no Dwellings of the Ancient Gods, not even OTHER story tracks like Roar of Dominion Or God-Shattering Star). In addition, I can at least understand their Classic Mode, BUT the choice of music in some areas is weird. Not dumb, but I was slightly annoyed with it.

In Round 6 of Classic Mode, it just plays Fódlan Winds when I was hoping for Blue Skies and a Battle. And what song does the credits game play? The main theme remix? Edge of Dawn? Pfft, nah, PATHS THAT WILL NEVER CROSS BABY!

TL;DR I’m not angry about ‘s inclusion. Just some of the way their music and Classic Mode was handled.

 

[UserKev]

…Okay, without sounding mean, it seems like you only created this thread under the mentality of “POPULAR THING IS POPULAR, SO NOW IT’S BAD” instead of supporting legit criticism.

So? Maybe I did. Doesn't mean you shouldn't critique when posting.