Critique Super Smash Bros.

lucasla

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#41
How much will other modes add, though? I can understand improving online (which is why I was hoping for a Global Test demo), but there's only so much you can do with the core gameplay that they haven't already done. And even if they cone up with something, it will probably end up as a gimmick like Pokémon's Mega Evolutions.
They still dont have a full good quality campaign. Spirits is a great Events mode, but I dont really see it as a campaign. They have Subspace that was a good attempt, but is not really great. It doesnt mean it's not possible. In my mind, the last level of World of Light was very close to what a campaign level should be. They just need to make an entire game around it instead of one level only... With good design, it can also be a mode with great replay value.
I always think in something like a mix of Subspace with the quality of the last level World of Light, with levels that reminds us other modes of Smash like break the targets, Smash Run, Multiman Smash, with Bosses, auto-scrolling and not auto-scrolling levels, levels based in levels of games represented in Smash... jesus I can think in so many different things that could make a campaign game something big and interesting... of course that in this bag of possibilities, they must find a good balance to create a great campaign.

This isn't really gimmick, it's a full campaign. Of course this is too much to ask them to develop as DLC for Ultimate, but for another Smash, a campaign and better online is a must. At least in my opinion.
 
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Ahm Skittish!

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#42
It's worth noting that last time they tried to make a campaign was SSE. It took up too much of Brawl's development time and caused multiple game delays while also making it severely hard to balance the core game.

Smash is going to always have a lot of characters. That's the core part of what makes Smash, well, Smash. It's a character-driven game.

A full campaign is next to impossible unless we lose at least around half the characters, and they couldn't even include the full 35 in Brawl either. Not just due to delays, but a lot of clones(well, semi-clones) were added too late. It's too difficult to make a good one at this point and include the entire playable roster. That's why they're more like events or Melee's Adventure Mode, simplistic ones that are able to be worthwhile for all the characters in the game. Everyone is able to be incorporated in a useful manner. Cutscenes also take a lot to develop as is. They're a huge time sink. They were toned down heavily since Brrawl, which to make it even more clear, took up 70% of the full development time. Let's note that 7 characters didn't make the cut(though we don't know what Pra_Mai is exactly) because of they had no time to do so. Adventure Mode is a fun thing, but characters should come first before that.

For Ultimate, I do find it kind of boring at this point. It has a great roster, but little to do. Events are barely there, and Spirits become tedious since they're fairly difficult. Spirits are easily better than Trophies outside of lacking a description. Trophies require a full model and take longer to make sure it animations correctly when simply moved around. We've had some errors on models before, so it's not like this issue doesn't come up. They also take way longer to add than a picture, and descriptions need to be translated to multiple languages as is, an even bigger time sink. I miss trophies and descriptions, but I do think they did a good job at returning custom equipment and reinventing Trophies with Spirits overall. My only disappointment is that some of the DLC ones aren't including a lot of neat characters.

That said, we've gotten most modes back from other games. I get why Board The Platforms isn't coming back. It more or less has similarities to Adventure Mode in some way(well, the normal ones), and Race to the Finish often has the same elements of it so it's a bit redundant. The lack of any kind of Target Test(I'll gladly take Angry Birds style back, which I also liked incidentally, if it means having some kind of Target Test again). I prefer the idea of stylized ones, but Brawl handled it rather poorly. Having 5 levels isn't that bad, but it doesn't really translate well for a ton of characters. Level 5 can be a serious pain for some to even do. It also means you need to do far more Target Tests than if it was one per character(or even one per franchise, but every character would need to do it at least once). They aren't counting transformations from what I remember, but you still need to do 175 levels overall. That sounds pretty tedious. I could slightly forgive this annoyance if Brawl's Classic wasn't painfully long, extremely repetitive with barely any variety much of the time, and had only two mini-games, which were always the generic Target Tests. Brawl also had a serious issue with how hard Trophies were to get compared to Stickers. Not returning Grab The Trophies was one of the worst decisions for that game. Ultimate doesn't suffer from this, at least, due to a better designed Classic Mode overall, and also has Spirits in general fairly easy to grind. Getting specific ones can sometimes be more difficult than it should be, but at least there's only one collectable, so while it's more of an illusion of being less annoying, I'll take it over... nothing.
 

lucasla

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#43
It's worth noting that last time they tried to make a campaign was SSE. It took up too much of Brawl's development time and caused multiple game delays while also making it severely hard to balance the core game.

Smash is going to always have a lot of characters. That's the core part of what makes Smash, well, Smash. It's a character-driven game.

A full campaign is next to impossible unless we lose at least around half the characters, and they couldn't even include the full 35 in Brawl either. Not just due to delays, but a lot of clones(well, semi-clones) were added too late. It's too difficult to make a good one at this point and include the entire playable roster. That's why they're more like events or Melee's Adventure Mode, simplistic ones that are able to be worthwhile for all the characters in the game. Everyone is able to be incorporated in a useful manner. Cutscenes also take a lot to develop as is. They're a huge time sink. They were toned down heavily since Brrawl, which to make it even more clear, took up 70% of the full development time. Let's note that 7 characters didn't make the cut(though we don't know what Pra_Mai is exactly) because of they had no time to do so. Adventure Mode is a fun thing, but characters should come first before that.

For Ultimate, I do find it kind of boring at this point. It has a great roster, but little to do. Events are barely there, and Spirits become tedious since they're fairly difficult. Spirits are easily better than Trophies outside of lacking a description. Trophies require a full model and take longer to make sure it animations correctly when simply moved around. We've had some errors on models before, so it's not like this issue doesn't come up. They also take way longer to add than a picture, and descriptions need to be translated to multiple languages as is, an even bigger time sink. I miss trophies and descriptions, but I do think they did a good job at returning custom equipment and reinventing Trophies with Spirits overall. My only disappointment is that some of the DLC ones aren't including a lot of neat characters.

That said, we've gotten most modes back from other games. I get why Board The Platforms isn't coming back. It more or less has similarities to Adventure Mode in some way(well, the normal ones), and Race to the Finish often has the same elements of it so it's a bit redundant. The lack of any kind of Target Test(I'll gladly take Angry Birds style back, which I also liked incidentally, if it means having some kind of Target Test again). I prefer the idea of stylized ones, but Brawl handled it rather poorly. Having 5 levels isn't that bad, but it doesn't really translate well for a ton of characters. Level 5 can be a serious pain for some to even do. It also means you need to do far more Target Tests than if it was one per character(or even one per franchise, but every character would need to do it at least once). They aren't counting transformations from what I remember, but you still need to do 175 levels overall. That sounds pretty tedious. I could slightly forgive this annoyance if Brawl's Classic wasn't painfully long, extremely repetitive with barely any variety much of the time, and had only two mini-games, which were always the generic Target Tests. Brawl also had a serious issue with how hard Trophies were to get compared to Stickers. Not returning Grab The Trophies was one of the worst decisions for that game. Ultimate doesn't suffer from this, at least, due to a better designed Classic Mode overall, and also has Spirits in general fairly easy to grind. Getting specific ones can sometimes be more difficult than it should be, but at least there's only one collectable, so while it's more of an illusion of being less annoying, I'll take it over... nothing.
I respectfully disagree with you.. everything depends. I would agree before, but now at this point with Ultimate already out, I dont think they have too much to do if they dont add a new big game mode in the game. The core gameplay for a sequel of Ultimate for example, it could be totally ported from Ultimate for a new game, with adjustments. Even with some people nitpicking some things and some people that are never satisfied, I think Ultimate in general fixed most problems of the previous Brawl and Smash4 versions of the series, that were not very good for competitive play, and still is a great game to play casually. They dont have too much to do now in the core gameplay, unless they really create new game changing mechanics. So, I dont think they need to cut the roster in half to make a campaign, not at this point. The core gameplay is a separated thing that is already in a point that they can just make adjustments for a sequel.

As much as Ultimate made Smash4 irrelevant (for a majority of course) because it has basically everything that is relevant from Smash4 and more content, a new sequel can just port everything from Ultimate and add more content too. With the core gameplay already in a good state, what can they do? A better online and a campaign mode.

And the campaign could be developed in so many different ways that I dont see how the ammount of characters they already have would be a problem. For me I see it more as a bonus for them to have that many characters working and ready to use in levels.
 
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Quillion

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#44
As good as the core gameplay is, they really shouldn't just "port it over with adjustments". Recycling everything can only go so far until it gets boring, and I think the Smash series has reached stagnation already.

Minor adjustments aren't going to cut it anymore. It's not helping Pokémon at this point, and it won't help Smash.
 

Coolboy

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#45
I'm glad people are finally leaving the honeymoon phase of Super Smash Bros. Ultimate and seeing it for what it truly is. I think the major problem are too many characters. I know many will disagree. That's fine. I want a game with a smaller roster and more content. Trophies didn't make the cut this time around. I suspect that by making a lot of characters, a lot of the music took up the space. There are probably other factors. When the SSBU invitational was happening, the roster I saw would have been fine as is. #SSBsmallerroster #tiredofSSBU
i disagree. i actually want the next game to have just as much characters, if not even more characters then ultimate!
if a new smash comes out and half or more of the characters are gone then count me out..it will not only be a huge disappointment and let down but it would be going a step backward in the wrong direction, most people and i am saying both casual and competitive people they all have favorite characters,
soooo if the new game is announced and only half of the roster returns and if most of my (and other people's) fave characters got cut then i can tell you..alot of people will not be happy including me in fact i think i won't even give the game a try tbh

the only thing that actually MUST be fixed is the online..that's literally the biggest problem this game has, other then that the game is fine as it is no need to change/cut stuff anymore!
 

Zachmac

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#46
It seems like a lot of people in this thread (and general) what critiquing is. It's supposed to be constructive, to zero in on the biggest issues and suggest improvements.

Vague statements like "it was better in the good old days" and "the balance isn't perfect" aren't critiques, they're complaints that barely mean anything. Why was it better before (and are you sure it isn't your nostalgia speaking)? What could Ultimate do to improve its balance further (and are you forgetting that its the most balanced roster yet despite also being the largest)?
 

Wigglerman

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#47
i disagree. i actually want the next game to have just as much characters, if not even more characters then ultimate!
if a new smash comes out and half or more of the characters are gone then count me out..it will not only be a huge disappointment and let down but it would be going a step backward in the wrong direction, most people and i am saying both casual and competitive people they all have favorite characters,
soooo if the new game is announced and only half of the roster returns and if most of my (and other people's) fave characters got cut then i can tell you..alot of people will not be happy including me in fact i think i won't even give the game a try tbh

the only thing that actually MUST be fixed is the online..that's literally the biggest problem this game has, other then that the game is fine as it is no need to change/cut stuff anymore!
To me, I feel that as much as I love Ultimate, the series is in need of a soft reboot of sorts going forward. I doubt the roster will be this large (or larger) for the next game. I feel they could cut the roster back by half and give the series a solid foundation for a new line of Smash games. Hopefully with richer game play. I don't think it needs to go back to square one like SF5 tried to do by having a barebones roster that trickles new additions over a series of 5+ years, but they could do a selective roster slimming to get the game to a fresher state that they can build upon for future installments.

Ultimate is fantastic but the series, admittedly, does need SOMETHING done to it to really give it a new breath of life.
 
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#48
Why do people think that Smash needs a reboot of sorts when Ultimate is still going strong? Hell, why do people started thinking of a next installment even before Ultimate came out?

Even worse, the ideas that people sell you for a possible reboot are always vague, promising that somehow everything will be if we just axe half the roster and never going into specifics. And the gameplay is going to be richer as well because reasons. "We need to reboot Smash, I don't know how or why, but I assure you that the world will be a better place".

It's like if I said that I have the perfect utopia figured out. There is no poverty, no corruption, no discrimination, a stable economy and fulfilling jobs for everyone. Anyone can do that without even thinking about logistics.

For a 6th installment, we'll cross that bridge when we get there but for now I won't lose sight of what I have in front of me.
 
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#49
Reusing audio from Brawl is unacceptable. They should at least give us new voice lines and victory jingles instead of constantly recycling old ones.

Obviously not spending enough time testing for bugs/glitches pre-release

Not giving a **** about the online is painful. The fact that it's almost 2020 and Nintendo is still using peer to peer connection is unbelievable.

Having this many RNG/gimmick based characters is rather annoying.
Gonna add a few to this list:

  • The buffer system is hot garbage.
  • You can't change the menu theme until you beat WoL
  • WoL is just a 20 hour campaign of glorified event matches and lacking a real story.
  • The game was missing so much during its first few months compared to Smash 4. It still is.
  • The casual oriented design philosophy is the reason we have BS like hero.
 
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#50
Why do people think that Smash needs a reboot of sorts when Ultimate is still going strong? Hell, why do people started thinking of a next installment even before Ultimate came out?

Even worse, the ideas that people sell you for a possible reboot are always vague, promising that somehow everything will be if we just axe half the roster and never going into specifics. And the gameplay is going to be richer as well because reasons. "We need to reboot Smash, I don't know how or why, but I assure you that the world will be a better place".

It's like if I said that I have the perfect utopia figured out. There is no poverty, no corruption, no discrimination, a stable economy and fulfilling jobs for everyone. Anyone can do that without even thinking about logistics.

For a 6th installment, we'll cross that bridge when we get there but for now I won't lose sight of what I have in front of me.
I get the impression there's this general idea for some that the series should focus less on adding more characters and more on other forms of content.

Others seem to want the series to update the way a good portion of the cast is portrayed, more than just adjusting their frames and damage values.

I don't think a full or even soft reboot is necessary, though. Most of the characters are portrayed fine as they are (only exceptions arguably are Zelda, Sheik, and Ganondorf [even then I prefer his Brawl/Smash 4 portrayal]), and they can add more content without cutting characters, or even just cutting a few.
 
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#51
Buff Puff sakurai pls (balance is also an issue, particularly hero I dont hate the rng, I hate the fact that the mean absolute deviation between his spells is so high, ranging from magic burst and the better versions of hocus pocus to ****ing kaclang, also there's alot of terribly designed character little mac and king k rool are both garbage but make you play in a certain style of play to win for example, having to platform camp little macs and having to not directly challenge k rool hitboxes, don't get me wrong they arent good, or deserving nerfs however they are both annoying. theres also the fact that some characters are 1 million times better online than Irl, (k rool and zoners) and some characters are really garbage and trash, while some characters are so oppressive (snake, olimar, joker) or just create a sort of 1 neutral win=entire set, due to snowballing mechanics.)
 
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lucasla

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#52
I dont think we need a reboot that changes the game too much.. Talking about the core gameplay, I think that what could be done is create entire new or partially new movesets for a lot of characters. If they fix the online and add a better ranked system and good singleplayer content,I will be more than happy because the actual game as it is now, I cant even really enjoy properly because online doesnt work nicely and Spirits are just quick event matches. If I could firstly, enjoy the current gameplay of Smash properly, that is a thing that I still cannot do, because the online environment is not good and I dont have other option to play frequently, I will already be very happy. I still never had a Smash with a decent online mode to really enjoy the actual gameplay the series provides, why would I want a change now? I first need a game that allows me to play it properly with the actual gameplay of the game. If they add small touches, it will be fine, it must happen anyway, it can't be 100% the same.
 
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#54
I get the impression there's this general idea for some that the series should focus less on adding more characters and more on other forms of content.

Others seem to want the series to update the way a good portion of the cast is portrayed, more than just adjusting their frames and damage values.

I don't think a full or even soft reboot is necessary, though. Most of the characters are portrayed fine as they are (only exceptions arguably are Zelda, Sheik, and Ganondorf [even then I prefer his Brawl/Smash 4 portrayal]), and they can add more content without cutting characters, or even just cutting a few.
I'm not totally sure those are reasons for a reboot, though. They added and removed characters from the roster as they pleased until they announced Everyone Is Here. The next Smash will probably just be the same.

Realistically, most of the cast is portrayed pretty well. The only characters due for a serious reworking are the ones with "made up" movesets like Ganondorf and Captain Falcon. Other than that, I can only see them reworking characters to better reflect attacks from their games like :ultkingdedede::ultmetaknight: having movesets based on Star Allies (or whatever the most recent Kirby game is at that point) or decloning and giving unique movesets to :ultroy::ultchrom::ultlucina:.

A reboot in any form isn't necessary and really shouldn't be considered by the fanbase. We haven't even finished the first wave of DLC. It's way to early to be throwing out the word reboot to begin with.
 
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