Critique Super Smash Bros.

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Double post, geez.

 

[Deleted member]

For me, SSBU is a pretty great game, though not without its problems.

Online for one instance can be pretty hit-or-miss. But, honestly, a lot of my problems with it (lag), aren't really a problem resulting from the development team but Nintendo higherups themselves, and that problem can be prevalent across their other online games (MK8D, Splatoon 2, etc etc). Also, I do feel like some of the game modes have more potential then they currently have, specifically Squad Strike, that would be great online imo. Incorporating online functionality with the tourneys was a great start, but there's still room to grow.

I don't really play competitively enough (but not really casually either) to really form opinions on this, and it's already been said countless times so...

I love Spirits but sometimes they don't really have sensible categories. After getting one, there's a good chance you may never use it or even care about it again, so it's a collectable, I definitely think adding descriptions is a good start. I saw a suggestion to have them appear during Final Smashes if you have them on?? That would be cool, oh and also, please let us see their series name after we win them. One more thing, idk if it's just me, but I really am bugged by the fact that we can't save replays of Spirit Battles, while a lot of my wins can be cheesy, in the past I do feel like I made plays that I'm proud of and it would be great just to watch that over again (we also just need more Spirits of them but lol)

I might have more to add later on but yea

 

[Blutrausch]

As you say, they are cool and interesting which is why they are there. Sakurai has stated that he wants to make movesets fun as well. It's interesting that you say that they aren't essential especially for competitive play, because that mindset showcases the dangers of catering too much to the hyper competitive crowd and it gives me the "characters are just functions" vibe. Reserving those traits to FS only would pretty much rob those characters of their individuality and homogenize them with the rest of the cast in an unfun way.

Fun is subjective. Maybe my main should receive buffs mid-match so I can know that I only won because I had my hand held, rather than solely relying on my own skill. I'm not going to worry about the hyperbole in your post. Reserving certain abilities to FS would cater to the casual crowd. Casual gamers don't care about winning. They don't take the game seriously. Since FS can be turned on/off, restricting mini FS (K.O. Punch, Limit, Go!) to the actual FS for those specific characters would be a win-win situation for casual and competitive gamers.

 

[Koopaul]

Smash hasn't evolved or changed much in 20 years. A big overhaul would be welcome as there are just a ton of stuff that they've held onto because of tradition or something.

 

[Deleted member]

Smash hasn't evolved or changed much in 20 years. A big overhaul would be welcome as there are just a ton of stuff that they've held onto because of tradition or something.

What are you thinking of, specifically?

 

[Koopaul]

What are you thinking of, specifically?

Not sure. Maybe a whole new approach. New mechanics. Rehauling all the characters and how they work. Working from the ground up instead of building from the same model.

You know how wacky a lot of these new fighters are with all their gimmicks and unique animations? Well imagine if that was Mario. Or Donkey Kong. Or any of the fighters. What if instead of Master Hand and Final Destination and all the other staples of the series we got something different? Instead of Final Destination it's the Smash Arena and you fight "Smash Master" a godlike figure who can turn into any fighter.

I dunno. Just throwing things out there. It could be anything really. I'm just bored with Mario always having the same moves. Having the same old Final Destination flying in space. The same old Master Hand. We've seen this for years! Time for a change.

 

[Necro'lic]

A game's end goal shouldn't be to achieve complete balance. A completed balanced game does not equal a fun game. If you want every character to stand an equal chance against each other you will have to homogenize them and strip them of their individual traits. Street Fighter I is the perfect balanced game because you only have Ryu and Ken who play the same, giving the players an equal amount of options; but it's not very fun.

This mentality of people asking for better balance wanting "perfect balance" and this idea that "perfect balance" means every character plays the same is, and I'm putting it bluntly, complete bull****, and anyone who says that probably hasn't played an actually balanced multi class/character game in their lives.

Firstly, no one is asking for "perfect" balance. Perfection is the enemy of the good. We are asking for BETTER balance. As in, better than it is right now. Perfection is not achievable anyway, so why would anyone think that that's what is being asked?

Secondly, there are ways to make characters not play the same without completely crapping on the balance of the game. I've said it for years, and it's having universal defensive options for all characters so that all characters can, at minimum, deal with anything the game designers can throw at them. Now they can be better or worse at this task, but the point is that all characters have a baseline. Here's a link to David Sirlin's website about it. Regardless of what you think of the man himself or the game he's analyzing, the idea itself, from a game design standpoint, is a good one to lead with, and if you happen to get it right and have your defensive strategical structure of your fighting game be self correcting, that actually gives MORE ability to differentiate your characters, not less.

 

[Ze Diglett]

This mentality of people asking for better balance wanting "perfect balance" and this idea that "perfect balance" means every character plays the same is, and I'm putting it bluntly, complete bull****, and anyone who says that probably hasn't played an actually balanced multi class/character game in their lives.

Firstly, no one is asking for "perfect" balance. Perfection is the enemy of the good. We are asking for BETTER balance. As in, better than it is right now. Perfection is not achievable anyway, so why would anyone think that that's what is being asked?

Secondly, there are ways to make characters not play the same without completely crapping on the balance of the game. I've said it for years, and it's having universal defensive options for all characters so that all characters can, at minimum, deal with anything the game designers can throw at them. Now they can be better or worse at this task, but the point is that all characters have a baseline. Here's a link to David Sirlin's website about it. Regardless of what you think of the man himself or the game he's analyzing, the idea itself, from a game design standpoint, is a good one to lead with, and if you happen to get it right and have your defensive strategical structure of your fighting game be self correcting, that actually gives MORE ability to differentiate your characters, not less.

Precisely. I'm not asking for the game to be "perfectly" balanced by homogenizing the roster. If anything, I'm advocating for the exact opposite: buff the underwhelming characters by giving them cool, interesting options that completely change their gameplan. Like imagine if instead of that dinky, slow reflector Mewtwo has for a Side-B, they gave him a ranged command grab that let him kill and/or combo off of it. You could probably do something like that for every character in the roster, even the top tiers. Hell, even just giving every character at least one BnB combo as a reward for winning neutral would be a start IMO. (And I'm not counting boring 1-2 throw combos like Smash 4 had. I'm talking actual, extensive combos that feel satisfying to land.)

 

[Gimj]

1) The lack of Waluigi on the character roster.

2) Lackluster "story" mode or Subspace equivalent. Brawl will forever be a fan-classic for this reason alone. The story was immersive and existant. WoL has good boss battles, and barely a storyline. That's it. The map movement and battles are impressive enough given what they're working with, but it is still what they worked with. It got repetitive and dull pretty quick. Mock-battles from all characters' series are not the best we can do for this franchise. If Smash had a new Subspace equivalent story(AND YES THAT INCLUDES CUTSCENES SAMURAI!!) with slightly better gameplay/worlds it would be insane. But making an IMPROVED story/game from Subspace is approaching legendary status. This is the untapped potential of Smash right now, and the fans wanted it.
- sub point: Wouldn't it be relatively easy to stop cutscenes being uploaded to major platforms like YouTube?

3. Rising full hop aerials are impossible for the first time in a Smash game.

4. Hitboxes seem more inconsistent than ever, not sure if its the Z axis or what. Many times I will see the limb of my character pass through the other yet with no impact. I could be wrong, but I don't recall this being an issue before.

5. [Still] no stage hazard toggle.

6. VOICES IN SMASH ARE NOW QUIETER THAN A MOUSE???? I want to know how the sound director(?) actually ok'd this. I'm not trying to be rude, but I am flabbergasted that they will take the time to record voices for taunts that are IMPOSSIBLE to hear. Good luck hearing Wolf, Meta Knight and others. I remember all taunts being easily heard in battle without exception. Now even if everyone sits still and listens you still can't hear voices. The levels are all off. Don't get me started on the crowd/cheering. It just sounds like indiscernible noise most of the time. You don't even know who they're cheering for. Either make it understandable, or just make them cheer generically if you don't like the crowd showing support for one particular fighter(I doubt that's the reason). It's amazing they recorded these crowd chants yet they are impossible to understand while playing the game. I know you can mess with the sound levels in-game, but it will just make ALL voices louder or quieter, not address the specifically obnoxiously quiet ones like Wolf, Meta Knight and others I can't think of. I don't want to have obnoxiously loud voices just to hear the quiet ones.

7. Online sucks(compared to industry standard). Lag is the norm, not the exception. No real ranking system. Elite Smash/GSP ranking is questionable. I have certain characters that I maintained a decent winrate with for the first couple of games in ES, now its very hard for me to drop out of it with them. Other characters I am not in Elite Smash with I played repeatedly against people I lose to, now they are in a "hole" and it's harder to get to ES. The funny thing is though: the players in my non-ES "hole" are WAY better than the ones firmly in Elite Smash on my other characters. These players are a couple million GSP lower than ES, yet they play far better. So it seems there is a shadow ranking that is the TRUE ranking/matchmaking, and it's not ES. I am not playing bad players on my lower GSP characters. Perhaps it matched me up with other fellow(I-keep-rematching-people-that-beat-me) types.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Fun is subjective. Maybe my main should receive buffs mid-match so I can know that I only won because I had my hand held, rather than solely relying on my own skill. I'm not going to worry about the hyperbole in your post. Reserving certain abilities to FS would cater to the casual crowd. Casual gamers don't care about winning. They don't take the game seriously. Since FS can be turned on/off, restricting mini FS (K.O. Punch, Limit, Go!) to the actual FS for those specific characters would be a win-win situation for casual and competitive gamers.

Casuals don't care about winning? You must not have that much casual experience then. Most people don't play to lose, even if they aren't playing seriously, and in Smash your skill will still account as a factor for winning consistently against lesser players. And while fun is subjective, compromising creative input for the sake of catering too much to the competitive crowd is objectively bad. The opposite holds true as well which can be seen with Brawl. But you’re dead wrong to think that casual players wouldn’t feel that they’ve lost something by relegating some of the mechanics that are integral to a fighter’s kit to a mere FS. Not everyone plays with those on every match.

The fact that you think that doing so is a “win-win” for both sides or that casuals never play seriously and don’t care about winning shows that you have a clear disconnect with the people who play the game as a social activity and the devs’ intentions behind making move sets.

 

[Necro'lic]

And while fun is subjective, compromising creative input for the sake of catering too much to the competitive crowd is objectively bad.

While I agree with everything else you said there, this clearly isn't true. Well, it would be if catering to the competitive crowd necessarily resulted in less creativity, but a good developer wouldn't fall into that trap.

I know it's my go to example whenever "competitive game with amazing balance" comes up, but Dota 2 completely blows your conclusion out of the water with extremely unique heroes that all play very distinct AND can be played in a multitude of ways while the balance of the game is very explicitly done for the tippy top of the playerbase. And you know why this is fine? Because Icefrog (the lead balancer of the game) understands that design and balance are not the same thing.

Whenever Icefrog retools a hero's moveset (which he has done A LOT of recently), he is changing the design of that hero, usually for the better, and most of these changes are aimed at casual players (making harder heroes easier to play or understand, making easier, harder to counter heroes have more exploitable weaknesses, etc.). However, the game is still balanced around the competitive scene, because contrary to what you think, you can cater to both casual and competitive players at the same time. It's just harder to do. But well worth.

 

[Blutrausch]

Casuals don't care about winning? You must not have that much casual experience then. Most people don't play to lose, even if they aren't playing seriously, and in Smash your skill will still account as a factor for winning consistently against lesser players. And while fun is subjective, compromising creative input for the sake of catering too much to the competitive crowd is objectively bad. The opposite holds true as well which can be seen with Brawl. But you’re dead wrong to think that casual players wouldn’t feel that they’ve lost something by relegating some of the mechanics that are integral to a fighter’s kit to a mere FS. Not everyone plays with those on every match.

The fact that you think that doing so is a “win-win” for both sides or that casuals never play seriously and don’t care about winning shows that you have a clear disconnect with the people who play the game as a social activity and the devs’ intentions behind making move sets.

If you care about winning, you're being competitive. I knew someone who played Smash, but he didn't care if he lost because his goal wasn't about winning. He is a casual.

You're assuming creativity and catering to a demographic are mutually exclusive. I can't see why you'd think that. A lot of businesses cater to a demographic, yet come up with creative ideas.

I don't see how things like K.O. Punch, Limit, or Go! are integral to any of those characters. Why not just do this for every character? I'm certain most, if not all characters can be granted similar moves based on their own series. Is it necessary? No.

Anyway, I broke my copy of SSBU. I don't regret it. It's the only game I've ever owned that I broke. Then I tossed it in the trash. I was disappointed with the game, but relatively calm about its destruction. At least I'm consistent, unlike some top players who hate, yet play SSBU. Later.

 

[Necro'lic]

If you care about winning, you're being competitive. I knew someone who played Smash, but he didn't care if he lost because his goal wasn't about winning. He is a casual.

Just like I ribbed into Ryu Myuutsu , your line of thinking is also flawed. There is a difference between being a casual player and playing casually. And even then, simply not caring about whether you win or lose doesn't change the fact that the entire point of the game is to win against your opponents. If someone were playing Smash not to win in the particular match they are in, even if it's not to the best of their ability, then calling them a casual would be less appropriate than calling them very weird or slightly idiotic.

I don't see how things like K.O. Punch, Limit, or Go! are integral to any of those characters. Why not just do this for every character? I'm certain most, if not all characters can be granted similar moves based on their own series. Is it necessary? No.

They aren't "integral" to the characters per se, but they are there to add options to the playstyle of the character for competitive folks, as well as flavor for casual and competitive folks (because flavor is an important aspect of character design and everyone likes more flavorful characters). As for the "why not every character?" question, honestly, they really should do special things for every character. Obviously not in the exact same vein as those three examples, but basically more flavorful and appropriate movesets for more veteran characters while also adding complex options and branches of playstyle. Boom! You've just catered to both casual and competitive fans at the same time, because as I said in my comparison of Dota, design and balance aren't the same thing. Design is mostly for casual players (with a bit for competitive), while balance is for the competitive scene.

It's why, in Dota, one of the most famous heroes, Rubick, a hero that can steal any active spell from enemies and use it against them even BETTER than they can is well loved by casual players while still, despite his spell stealing design being a potential death knell from a balance perspective competitively, is still one of the most balanced heroes at the highest level of play. How did they accomplish that? With a huge amount of feedback from the top players.

And if you know the history of Rubick, you'd know that his actual hero design, the one Icefrog (the creator of that hero) is praised and lauded for by the community, was NEVER compromised by the competitive community's balance wishes. It's almost like having unique designs and tools are fine to have in a competitively focused game!

 

[Coolboy]

If you care about winning, you're being competitive. I knew someone who played Smash, but he didn't care if he lost because his goal wasn't about winning. He is a casual.

i am not a pro competitive player nor do i want to be,
but i do play and try to win! at the same time i also don't mind if i lose though
but in your words because i try to win that makes me a competitive player,
while idc about doing flashy combos etc and sure i try to improve and sometimes play differently in a attempt to win but for the most part i just play online and see how it goes.
i am already proud enough of myself if i get a zero to death moment or just 2/3 stock someone even though it's not with flashy combos!

 

[scoobymcsnack]

My one critique would be the lack of descriptions for spirits, it's the one thing keeping spirits from being completely better than trophies imo
Spirits are great because they take up less development time, we get access to even more characters than we would have ever gotten as trophies, and the primary way of collecting spirits (themed battles) is super fun!
But with all of these characters, many of which a lot of players might be unfamiliar with, a description would be super handy and nice. Plus they're fun to read!

 

[Blutrausch]

Just like I ribbed into Ryu Myuutsu , your line of thinking is also flawed. There is a difference between being a casual player and playing casually. And even then, simply not caring about whether you win or lose doesn't change the fact that the entire point of the game is to win against your opponents. If someone were playing Smash not to win in the particular match they are in, even if it's not to the best of their ability, then calling them a casual would be less appropriate than calling them very weird or slightly idiotic.

Even if the objective of a game is to win, it doesn't necessarily mean the casual gamer cares if he wins or loses. The moment you play competitively is the moment you play to win. Competition is defined as, "The activity or condition of striving to gain or win something by defeating or establishing superiority over others." (OED, italics mine)

Playing casually would simply means that you're playing in "a relaxed or informal way." (ibid.) However, in gaming, the opposite of a casual gamer is a hardcore gamer, where competition is involved. You can be an amateur (not paid), or a professional (paid; sponsored) gamer and be competitive.

One's ability to win has nothing to do with competitiveness, as long as winning is your goal. If that's not your goal, then you either don't have a goal, or your goal just simply has nothing to do with winning. Consider "playing for fun" where "fun" can mean anything to the person, or "playing to learn", where your goal is to improve, even if you lose.

Coolboy Competitiveness has nothing to do with being a pro or doing something flashy. You can be a competitive amateur, i.e., someone whose goal is to win, while not getting paid for doing so.

That's all I'm going to say on this matter.

 

[Coolboy]

1 thing that bothers me gameplay wise it happens sometimes to me but also my opponent,
lets say we are both on last stock and my opponent hits me and the game says it's a K.O but instead i won't K.O and is able to return to the stage

i had this once when i played Zelda that it kinda frustrated me, i literally had a K.O against this Marth player TWICE in a row with down B when he was either holding the ledge or he was jumping but both times he didn't K.O like the game said he should, i did win at the end but that doesn't mean it's not annoying.

what's the point of saying it's a K.O while it's not? idk it just bothers me especially if it's a really intense match
idc if i lose but don't make me happy over nothing you know? you can get really caught off guard or get out of the flow with this.

i'm not gonna lie that it sometimes made me win the match cause the game decided not to actually K.O me haha

 

[asia_catdog_blue]

I want to add this bit from GameFAQS.

DragonDeoxys posted...

TC and a lot of people here has obviously never played any Mario game featuring Luigi. N64 Luigi had no personality to him and was basically a soulless replica of Mario with sped up voice clips.

asiacatdogblue posted...

I hate them all.​

What you DON'T hate? You hate Cp. Falcon's portrayal in Smash, you hate the fact that Smash is epic and now this; you pretty much hate whenever someone or something is given personality to it.
You must be pretty miserable around Smash games then.​

First off : WRONG! Even Then, Luigi had a difference from Mario in terms of character. He was much more calmer and more focused than his brother. And he even said he wasn't afraid(to & of Waluigi) in Mario Tennis for the N64(I don't mean the original SSB, I man ALL N64 game BUT the original SSB).

and Second: C. Falcon's portrayal in Smash is a FAR CRY from his character in the F-ZERO games! He was never campy(until GX, but that came after Melee)! Search" The Story of Captain Falcon" on Google!

Also, the original SSB WAS supposed to be just a light hearted Saturday Morning experience! Something you be excited for what occurs on, what else, Saturday Morning. Than, Sakurai had to turn it into some grand, epic(meaning long, not awesome) scale, like something you see out of a JRPG or Anime, and I think the series lost its charm because of that!

Oh, and there a fine line between being afraid of ghost and being afraid of WADDLE DEES!

 

[UserKev]

Pokeballs and Assist Trophies seem to defeat the purpose of each other these days. Final Destination has honestly lost its charm. I guess it makes sense that you can only replicate a masterpiece of a stage so many times. I suggest recycling previous versions with updated visuals.

 

[chikin]

I wish online wasn't so laggy.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I wish Nintendo was less assertive over Sora when it comes to character picks. I really feel bad for Sakurai. It sounded as if he was completely against Byleth being added and now people are saying he should be fired (albeit ill-informed people, but still). He made sure we all knew Nintendo picked the characters for FP2, which worries me that there's at least one more unpopular pick coming up.

My critique is that Nintendo is breeding discord by acting on such tight authority, and Sakurai knows it. I bet people would have welcomed Byleth (and any future character that's in a similar boat) if things were different over the last few years.

 

[Silask20]

The smash characters were easy to balance when there were fewer, projectile spamming was really a samus and ness exclusive thing. But now... its become to rampant, “zoning” has become a disease on this game. Spamming characters have become rampant.

i feel like 70% of my matches are spent dodging and weaving through projectiles just trying to get up close. And win or lose, its tedious and boring. I miss when smash was all about SMASHING faces, you’re in my face, im in yours lets do this but now... to much hiding, camping and running.

 

[Ze Diglett]

The smash characters were easy to balance when there were fewer, projectile spamming was really a samus and ness exclusive thing. But now... its become to rampant, “zoning” has become a disease on this game. Spamming characters have become rampant.

i feel like 70% of my matches are spent dodging and weaving through projectiles just trying to get up close. And win or lose, its tedious and boring. I miss when smash was all about SMASHING faces, you’re in my face, im in yours lets do this but now... to much hiding, camping and running.

If aggression's what you're looking for, I'd recommend looking into Rivals of Aether. That game's about as easy to pick up as Smash, only it has more advanced tech, it handles way better, and most importantly, it rewards aggression over camping. Even the "zoners" in that game have to play aggressively much of the time, which makes it a much more fun and interesting game IMO. Alternatively, Tekken 7 is extremely up close and personal, with very few of its characters even having a projectile to speak of, though it is much more grounded and execution-heavy than Rivals or Smash, so it may not be exactly what you're looking for.

 

[rat.jpg]

They dropped Pokefloats... and Sora isn't in the game... yet...

That's about all I got, chief.

 

[UserKev]

World of Light is a poor man's Smash Tour and so broken. Completely purposeless up until its finale. I swear, Sakurai loses more of his brilliance every instalment.

 

[Perkilator]

World of Light is a poor man's Smash Tour and so broken. Completely purposeless up until its finale. I swear, Sakurai loses more of his brilliance every instalment.

Oh, you mean the mode where you actually have an ADVENTURE and battle consistently AND has actual bosses that aren’t just a stage gimmick is the weaker version of a pointless mini-game where you do random bull waste over and over again on a discount Monopoly board?

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I swear, Sakurai loses more of his brilliance every instalment.

I agree that World of Light is mediocre, but was this really necessary? I'd say he gets more and more brilliant each time. Stages and newcomers are more unique each time, we're getting better and better songs, and he managed to put the most content in a Smash game ever in only three years of development. I wouldn't say a man is losing his "brilliance" just because a side campaign in a video game didn't meet my expectations.

 

[UserKev]

I agree that World of Light is mediocre, but was this really necessary? I'd say he gets more and more brilliant each time. Stages and newcomers are more unique each time, we're getting better and better songs, and he managed to put the most content in a Smash game ever in only three years of development. I wouldn't say a man is losing his "brilliance" just because a side campaign in a video game didn't meet my expectations.

World of Light is honestly enjoyable when I find the right matches but is mostly frustrating and confusing. Also, just because a game has more content doesn't mean it will effortlessly be well executed. Sakurai has honestly already mastered his brilliance with Melee. Onwards is just sequel and more with more iconic characters.

 

[Perkilator]

World of Light is honestly enjoyable when I find the right matches but is mostly frustrating and confusing. Also, just because a game has more content doesn't mean it will effortlessly be well executed. Sakurai has honestly already mastered his brilliance with Melee. Onwards is just sequel and more with more iconic characters.

So we’re just going to ignore how the series innovated with each entry?

Brawl: Added Subspace Emissary, along with the first non-Nintendo Fighters ()
for 3DS: Added Smash Run and stage bosses, and introduced Smash series to DLC ()
for Wii U: Introduced Smash Tour, brought in more stage bosses, and revised Classic Mode into a tournament-like progression (in which case, I think Sakurai innovated a little too much)
Ultimate: Added Spirits (which tie into the pre-mentioned WoL), made Assist Trophies K.O.-able, added Stock Stamina battles, gave us Morph Stages, expanded the uniqueness capabilities for newcomers (), created unique sets of Classic Mode matches for EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER, and used some of those routes to use bosses BESIDES Master and Crazy Hand for a unique last battle depending on who you play as ( faces Rathalos, faces Dracula, faces Marx, etc.)

 

[Lenidem]

So we’re just going to ignore how the series innovated with each entry?

Brawl: Added Subspace Emissary, along with the first non-Nintendo Fighters ()
for 3DS: Added Smash Run and stage bosses, and introduced Smash series to DLC ()
for Wii U: Introduced Smash Tour, brought in more stage bosses, and revised Classic Mode into a tournament-like progression (in which case, I think Sakurai innovated a little too much)
Ultimate: Added Spirits (which tie into the pre-mentioned WoL), made Assist Trophies K.O.-able, added Stock Stamina battles, gave us Morph Stages, expanded the uniqueness capabilities for newcomers (), created unique sets of Classic Mode matches for EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER, and used some of those routes to use bosses BESIDES Master and Crazy Hand for a unique last battle depending on who you play as ( faces Rathalos, faces Dracula, faces Marx, etc.)

Most of the innovations you mention are either kinda evident (stock battle stamina) or just the normal evolution of gaming (the existence of DLC). I wouldn't call any of those 'brilliant'.

 

[UserKev]

So we’re just going to ignore how the series innovated with each entry?

Brawl: Added Subspace Emissary, along with the first non-Nintendo Fighters ()
for 3DS: Added Smash Run and stage bosses, and introduced Smash series to DLC ()
for Wii U: Introduced Smash Tour, brought in more stage bosses, and revised Classic Mode into a tournament-like progression (in which case, I think Sakurai innovated a little too much)
Ultimate: Added Spirits (which tie into the pre-mentioned WoL), made Assist Trophies K.O.-able, added Stock Stamina battles, gave us Morph Stages, expanded the uniqueness capabilities for newcomers (), created unique sets of Classic Mode matches for EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER, and used some of those routes to use bosses BESIDES Master and Crazy Hand for a unique last battle depending on who you play as ( faces Rathalos, faces Dracula, faces Marx, etc.)

In terms of content, Modes, yes, Sakurai HAS lost his brilliance. In terms of characters, no. Sakurai is still decent. Stage Builder is mostly unnecessary and leveling up Spirits is incredibly time consuming.

 

[Firox]

So we’re just going to ignore how the series innovated with each entry?

Brawl: Added Subspace Emissary, along with the first non-Nintendo Fighters ()
for 3DS: Added Smash Run and stage bosses, and introduced Smash series to DLC ()
for Wii U: Introduced Smash Tour, brought in more stage bosses, and revised Classic Mode into a tournament-like progression (in which case, I think Sakurai innovated a little too much)
Ultimate: Added Spirits (which tie into the pre-mentioned WoL), made Assist Trophies K.O.-able, added Stock Stamina battles, gave us Morph Stages, expanded the uniqueness capabilities for newcomers (), created unique sets of Classic Mode matches for EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER, and used some of those routes to use bosses BESIDES Master and Crazy Hand for a unique last battle depending on who you play as ( faces Rathalos, faces Dracula, faces Marx, etc.)

I think it's adorable that you refer to Smash Tour like it was a good thing. It was a half-baked attempt at giving Smash a Mario Party spin that didn't pan out. If they'd given Smash 4 Wii U it's own version of Smash Run, I would have been far more content.

My take on Smash Ultimate is that the game is definitely the best Smash thus far overall, however, some glaring issues include:

1) The online, obviously. I would say that Quickplay is definitely a step up from "For Glory" but the inconsistent rule matchings and GSP make it unnecessarily frustrating. The addition of an "unranked" mode would likely appeal to a lot of people and help alleviate the quitter mentality people have avoid losing GSP. I personally like the 1v1 tourney mode, but the fact that it's only up every two days is just idiotic, especially considering that they can run theme tournaments simultaneously. Why not have an FFA tournament always active alongside a 1v1 tournament? Makes no sense. Then we have arenas. Not a bad idea overall, but the execution is abysmal. You have to drop queue to change characters or stages and playing locally with friends is pretty much impossible. In Sm4sh, you could have two people on one Wii U playing with two people on another Wii U. It made playing with my out-of-state family a blast. But with Ultimate, you can only play with friends online by having one person PER SWITCH. That can only be a dumbass oversight by Sakurai or a cheap POS cash-grab by Nintendo. Either way, it was step BACKWARD. Not forward. Lastly, you put the cherry on top of all this.....LAG.

2) World of Light. It was a relatively nice attempt at offering a story mode, and it certainly DID have its moments, but the sheer tedium of it really killed the experience 1/2-3/4 of the way through. The pseudo-RPG elements were interesting but mostly cosmetic, and though the cutscenes were really good, there were far too few to convey much of a coherent story. Alas, I doubt we'll see a masterpiece like Subspace emissary ever again, especially considering how many characters are in the game now.

3) General lack of modes. Granted, standard smash is undoubtedly the gem of the game (and series, to be frank) along with being incredibly polished with an abundance of stages, characters and items, and the personalized classic mode was a nice touch, but that's pretty much all the game has to offer. As stated above, WoL turns into a hardcore slog, All-stars was gutted into a semi-generic 100-man melee, and Homerun contest is pretty meh for anyone that actually likes playing Smash for, you know, SMASH. I found even Angry Birds from Sm4sh to be more interesting (though not by much). The only really exciting mode addition was online tourney mode for me. It would have been great to get more pseudo-platforming/Subspace/Smash Run-type modes, but c'est la vie.

Don't get me wrong, the roster is insanely awesome, balancing is glorious, the stages and attention to in-universe detail is superb, but some of the "innovations" of previous smash games were lost in translation.

 

[Perkilator]

I think it's adorable that you refer to Smash Tour like it was a good thing. It was a half-baked attempt at giving Smash a Mario Party spin that didn't pan out. If they'd given Smash 4 Wii U it's own version of Smash Run, I would have been far more content.

I didn't say it was good. I said it was there.

Not to be mean, or anything.

 

[Firox]

I didn't say it was good. I said it was there.

Not to be mean, or anything.

Ah, gotcha. Very good, then.

 

[asia_catdog_blue]

World of Light is a poor man's Smash Tour and so broken. Completely purposeless up until its finale. I swear, Sakurai loses more of his brilliance every instalment.

I still doubt Sakurai really wanted to continue this series.

 

[meleebrawler]

I agree that World of Light is mediocre, but was this really necessary? I'd say he gets more and more brilliant each time. Stages and newcomers are more unique each time, we're getting better and better songs, and he managed to put the most content in a Smash game ever in only three years of development. I wouldn't say a man is losing his "brilliance" just because a side campaign in a video game didn't meet my expectations.

It's not so much "losing the mental faculties that let him create and implement the modes" as it is de-emphasizing them in favour of things that actually draw the masses to get and play Smash for a long time.

 

[Ze Diglett]

It's not so much "losing the mental faculties that let him create and implement the modes" as it is de-emphasizing them in favour of things that actually draw the masses to get and play Smash for a long time.

In that case, I find that ironic, since I (and many others, if this thread's any indication) got bored of Ultimate more quickly than any other Smash game to date. If Sakurai wanted to get people to play Smash for a long time, making the core gameplay fun and rewarding would be a start IMO. (Refer to my previous post on the matter for elaboration.)

 

[2mileshigh]

I find it interesting how upset people get over the peripheral game modes in Smash. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I only play Smash for SMASH. I want a huge roster of semi-balanced fighters, tons of diverse stages, and the ability to play matches online. Ultimate knocks fighters and stages out of the park and online is good enough (though far from ideal) that I still very much enjoy it.

I don't give a rat's ass about a story mode, classic mode, spirit boards, home run contest, gimmick challenges, or any other sideshows that are tacked on to Smash games. I've played about 300 hours of Ultimate and haven't spent even one second on the World of Light, and probably never will.

If there's enough demand for an adventure / RPG / platformer featuring Smash characters, I wish Nintendo would just make a separate game altogether.

 

[asia_catdog_blue]

They really could have done something like what NAMCO did during the PS2 Era of Fighting.

 

[Firox]

In that case, I find that ironic, since I (and many others, if this thread's any indication) got bored of Ultimate more quickly than any other Smash game to date. If Sakurai wanted to get people to play Smash for a long time, making the core gameplay fun and rewarding would be a start IMO. (Refer to my previous post on the matter for elaboration.)

This is why I argue that even if Nintendo continues to churn out Smash Bros games until the end of time, each installment will show further diminishing returns. As far as base game goes, I too got bored of Ultimate faster than any other game in the series. Granted, I have over 500 hours on Ultimate due to grinding and competitive online, but it's become more of something I force myself to do in order to stay ahead of my friends when we get together to play.

Long story short, the franchise can only do so much to improve graphics, sharpen mechanics and polish the few extracurricular modes that it has. The character roster itself is really the heart and sole of the franchise and the only real draw that future games would have assuming they don't drop a ton of characters that result in Ultimate becoming a long-term fan holdout like Melee. This is why I think that Smash really needs to up it's game (so to speak) when it comes to single player modes, especially a story mode that reflects platformer exploration akin to Subspace emissary and Smash Run. The fighting format of Smash fits that kind of mode well and allows for a lot more fan service in the form of enemies from every franchise. The pseudo-RPG elements with stickers/spirits was a welcome addition, if only half-baked. It would be nice to see a little more depth there in the future.