Creation of BBR Ruleset Committee; Brawl Nationals Agree to Same Stagelist! New TO's!

[Tesh]

No word on whether SRT will allow Brinstar because Ally and M2K have expressed interest in it. I guess they realized that 90% of their attendees will be Japanese so they should cater to them. SRT ruleset is likely EXACTLY like their other tournaments. They won't lower the timer closer to our rulesets. They won't add in even MILD cps I bet. But APEX is like "hey guys wanna fly across the world and play a japanese tournament in america?"

Apex is like 7 months away still, if they want to attend and win a tournament in America, why can't they play by our ruleset? Thats PLENTY of time to prepare for our larger stagelist.

I saw a tournament (with under 100 participants in singles) get a sticky back in late January.

 

[Reizilla]

99%**************

 

[AlphaZealot]

Regardless, you have a precedent for getting an exception: 200+ people and attendence from Japan and Europe.

That is a huge difference from a tournament just being "sufficiently large".

 

[Reizilla]

Regardless, I don't plan to use this, since I won't be getting stickied anyway and have lost all respect for it.

 

[Tesh]

Regardless, you have a precedent for getting an exception: 200+ people and attendence from Japan and Europe.

That is a huge difference from a tournament just being "sufficiently large".

If MK is banned at APEX, I'll attend. I hope they cater to me rather than the other 99% of people attending.

 

[John12346]

Edit: I'm dumb, ignore

 

[Jack Kieser]

Regardless, you have a precedent for getting an exception: 200+ people and attendence from Japan and Europe.

That is a huge difference from a tournament just being "sufficiently large".

AZ, that doesn't matter; what the exemption requirements happen to be is irrelevant, because the fact that an exemption exists in the first place shows the community that the BBRRC doesn't even believe in its own project. How can I tell? Because, if stickies are really as important as you assert they are (implicitly, by restricting their usage to BBRRC-sanctioned events), if unity is as important as you think it is (as evidenced by the group itself even existing), and if nationals are as influential as you assert they are (which you prove by having the BBRRC focus efforts exclusively on them), then you wouldn't allow anyone to get away with using stickies and other high-level tools without submitting to the mandate[/I].

By allowing anyone, for any reason, to host a national without a BBRRC ruleset AND simultaneously use high-level tools, you've proven to the community how little faith you have in your own system.

Besides, the "well, international players" argument doesn't even hold up on its own, either! How can I tell? Because, no one has proven WHY we should cater to international players. To get them over here? Why should we have to cater to do that? After all, the BBRRC ruleset doesn't even cater to OUR players, and yet we have to allow special exemptions for international players? Is unity in the US good, but international unity bad? If the BBRRC ruleset is so awesome, shouldn't it be just as valid for Japan or Europe? And if it isn't because they use different characters or something, doesn't that just prove how bad the BBRRC's ruleset is?

See how many problems Apex causes, philosophically speaking? So, AZ? What is is? Is this mandate really worth it? Because, as long as you have exemptions for top-level nationals, for ANY reason, it's not worth anything at all.

 

[WindMajor]

Jack, I'm just gonna throw out a quick opinion.

I understand that one of the BBRRC's main goals was to unite North American Brawl under one standard ruleset, and that in order to do this, they needed to lay down some rules (namely the stickies), but that doesn't mean that there is no room for exceptions. I don't like using this phrase, but please, just live a little man.

The BBRRC is currently trying to create a standard Brawl ruleset in which major nationals will use, in order to establish a sense of unity in terms of rulesets. However, APEX isn't just a national. This is a world wide event, an event in which players from regions all over the world are expected to come to. The influence isn't just North American Brawl, the influence is site-wide, covering every region and every game. I understand that rules are rules, but I also believe that exceptions can and should be made, and in my humble opinion, APEX is that exception. IMO, uniting our multiple communities of smashers from all over the world under a single roof is a more desirable, and more important of a goal for SWF than uniting smashers under a single ruleset, and by a long shot. If a sticky, JUST A STICKY (we're arguing over a sticky here), can help achieve that, even if the change is ever so slight then by all means, sticky the ****ing thread already.

 

[Ghostbone]

The problem is people see the biggest tournament ignoring the ruleset so what's the incentive for anyone else to follow the ruleset?

 

[Yikarur]

the idea about a united ruleset (in the way it was done) was bad from the beginning lol

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

What you're trying to do with this mandate is hard, very hard, but very worth it; unity is never a bad thing, especially with a community this large. But, you're undermining yourself, and you need to understand that you can't spin things away from that fact: by allowing Apex a sticky, you've turned your mandate into a suggestion, which is what killed the respect of the BBR in the first place.

I'd just like to interject here, what's so great about unity? Don't get me wrong, I support the idea, but when asked for why... I started coming up with blanks. Why do you think unity is so great? I really need to figure this out...

It isn't just the largeness - it is the fact that the ruleset is supposedly catered toward what it would take to get the Japanese to come. Those two factors coupled together make it a much different beast.

Are you ****ing kidding me? You think that seeing Brinstar and RC on the stagelist will make the Japanese not show? You think that they're adapting their stagelists to make their tournaments more friendly to us? That's complete and utter bull****. Catering to the 1-5% (that's a very generous figure IMO)/3-10 Japanese players showing up has a fairly serious cost as far as the validity of the ruleset goes, banning a completely legitimate counterpick whose only problems are easily dealt with by adding one more stage ban (WHY THE **** DOES NOBODY TRY THIS IDEA???) (and another that has literally no issues beyond the fact that the TO is, like his region, a scrub with a backwards philosophy when it comes to stages... but that's a different story).




Speaking of which... Have you guys considered two stage bans? Brinstar/RC + MK and only one stage ban is really a pretty bad idea... I've come to the conclusion through my experience in germany that, well, they're almost right regarding that part of the stagelist-the current american formula is just a bad idea. However, banning one of the stages outright seems like the worst possible solution.

 

[Reizilla]

You do realize that for at least the two months leading up to Apex and probably even more, people are going to be practicing the "apex ruleset" at their tournaments to "get ready for apex." And then once Apex happens, there's still going to be no incentive to use this ruleset because what they did before worked for them and it's not like they're getting featured or stickied anyway.

Apex is on US soil, run through SWF. This makes it a US event. Which should make it run this ruleset. Just because a handful of foreigners are coming does not make it an international event. I can get 20-30% of players at my tournaments from Mexico, a much higher percentage, probably even number, than Apex, so can I have international sanction too?

 

[AlphaZealot]

Is your tournament likely to have 200+ attendants and people from Japan and Europe, as based on previous tournaments and reputation?

No?

Then no.

 

[Tesh]

Wow, racism. Are you saying that Mexicans are less important than white people and asians?

 

[AlphaZealot]

Actually I believe the statement you just made would likely be considered racist, as you seem to assume that a specific country is also a "race". I've never heard of the "Mexican" race, I've heard of people who are Hispanic, and they are in America, Mexico, Europe, etc. I've also heard of people who are Mexican, but that in itself is not a race as someone who is Mexican could be White, Black, Hispanic, etc, just as someone in America could be any race.

Don't confuse nationality and race ever again, Tesh. Even if you are trolling, which it is pretty clear you are, it is still ignorant and potentially very offensive to people.

 

[Reizilla]

So you're saying that Mexico isn't as important as European and Asian countries? Or that some 5% of international attendance means more than 20-30%, right?

 

[Reizilla]

Just for the record, Hispanic isn't a real race. All it mean is "we don't want you in the same group as white america."

 

[AlphaZealot]

I do agree there is ambiguity with that, view this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_a...ed_States_Census#Census_2000_.28Population.29

So you're saying that Mexico isn't as important as European and Asian countries? Or that some 5% of international attendance means more than 20-30%, right?

So you are saying those attendants that come from Mexico and Canada and frequently attend tournaments (easily every month, especially with Cananda) should be treated exactly the same as Japan, where there have been less than 5 occurrences in the entire history of Smash where they came to the US, and only 1 occurring in Brawl's lifetime? This is also roughly the same as with Europe.

You and others are trying to find soft points/technicalities, when there are none. I've been very specific, hold a 200+ person event and show you are likely (based on past precedent) to get Japanese/European support and you have a strong case for an exception. You can keep trying to whittle that down, but the line isn't moving.

EDIT: Also, consider that in 2010 there were only 2 tournaments that even broke the 200 attendance threshold (and I ran one of them).

 

[Reizilla]

Mexico has their own ruleset and preferences as much as Europe and Japan do, so yes, I'm saying we no more need to cater to them than we do foreigners close by. And that should we do that, we should be held accountable for it, considering that the largest portion of people being influenced by our tournament are the people from our own nation, those that we're trying to "unify."

 

[ぱみゅ]

people talking about international rulesets and mexicans' attendance.

And that's pretty much the reason why I, as a Mexican TO, have been following this thread, but I haven't said too much about it...

 

[666Philotanus666]

So you're saying that Mexico isn't as important as European and Asian countries? Or that some 5% of international attendance means more than 20-30%, right?

Yes, he actually did, I don't know why should European/Japanese people should be treaten better than Mexican/Canadian people, there's only like 3 Mexican people who attend USA tournaments, who don't actually attend Mexican tournaments. What would happen if Most of the Mexican (good) players attend to a USA tournament? We just WON'T get the exception Japanese and European players have. However, I agree, There shouldn't be any exception, not a single one. They want to go to "X" tournament, they MUST play with the rules, as someone else stated, Brinstar and RC won't make those players not show. As an example, I'm japanese, I'm coming to "X" country, so the Hotel will now serve Japanese food, everybody in there will speak japanese, etc... I just isn't like that, there's NO reason for you to give them a special treatment, ALL OF US SHOULD BE TREATEN AS EQUALS.

P.S. Shun Goku Satsu is right, YAY! No offense AlfaZealot, but I just don't agree with you :/

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I'm also going to have to agree with the "no exceptions, no matter what" idea. Rules are rules. Either all tournaments in the US have to use that stagelist to get a sticky no matter what, or any US tournament with any international presence can get a sticky. No silly "Only if they are international from far away and if you have a lot of people" exceptions. Otherwise, you're just being bias.

 

[Alex Strife]

hey everyone,

I just wanted to say my peace since everyone has been talking about Apex. I won't take too much of your time.

Above all I want to state, as I stated in my Perspective series, that I think this is a good concept I feel that the forcing of us to use a stagelist is not a very good idea. It should be used as a recommended ruleset and still have the Top TOs agree to use it as a standard to support the community. From there we can rebuild the BBR, as the MBR was rebuilt, and re-establish respect from the community ( which above all is more important ).

Beyond that aspect, please note that I do things to help the community. I felt this ruleset would be a combination of the entire worlds stagelists. To me it is not too conservative and not too liberal. For me I saw it as a middle ground.

Now I understand you all having a concern but remember they are trying to help the community. You may make fun of them but I promise you if you are just polite and not cussing ( BPC I look at you...you have great ideas whether I agree or not but you come off wrong ) lets just talk.

I am going to talk to JV eventually about a new approach to our community to help bring us together. I hope to see you all debating there.


Thank you for your time .


P.S - I know stickying my tournament will cause some issues and I am willing to not be stickied/covered on AIB if it means the betterment of my community that I love so dear.

 

[MK26]

P.S - I know stickying my tournament will cause some issues and I am willing to not be stickied/covered on AIB if it means the betterment of my community that I love so dear.

i respect this :nottroll:

bonus points for az changing 'all the nationals in 2011' to 'the nationals in 2011'

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Beyond that aspect, please note that I do things to help the community. I felt this ruleset would be a combination of the entire worlds stagelists. To me it is not too conservative and not too liberal. For me I saw it as a middle ground.

Yes, but it's like the middle ground between "Serial Killer" and "Well-Adjusted Citizen". Going from "Well-Adjusted Citizen" to "occasionally beats his wife to death" is a compromise, but it's not a compromise that's positive. I understand, you want to compromise. The problem is, they don't. And as much as you say that I say it wrong, the message matters-I have proven why larger stagelists are more competitively valid. I just get so pissed off at having to repeat myself, and people ignoring it, and people saying **** like "It's Subjective" after they agree to the simple Axiom that I derive my entire argumentation from (because the alternative leads to the claim that Chess is as competitive as Tic-Tac-Toe). Wouldn't you be pissed off in a situation like that? Wouldn't you get a chip on your shoulder if you had found conclusive logical proof that your favorite stages should be legal and nobody cared? I know, nobody cares. But that's exactly my problem. And god do I get pissed off about it.

P.S - I know stickying my tournament will cause some issues and I am willing to not be stickied/covered on AIB if it means the betterment of my community that I love so dear.

TBH I don't even think it would hurt the tournament one bit. Seriously, think about it-how hyped is APEX? It'd be on the first page of tournament listings for ages. I appreciate the gesture and I think it's for the best-it helps keep the rules rules, but honestly? It's not going to hurt APEX all that much.

 

[Alex Strife]

I know it wont hurt the event.

As far as your example. I'd prefer to just say it is my opinion on a middle-ground as we both have differences.

We did talk online and we both realized ( in a great conversation mind you ) that we have different views on what is good and what is not for competitive play and how our definitions of how the game should be played is different.

Either way our community needs to not be forced but worked with. It is easier IMO than forcing this upon others. We should go back to a recommended ruleset format and provide information upon how many times the stage has been used in tournament ( in regards to it being banned/picked/cped/etc ) and just give all the facts and let TOs decide.

I understand what the group is trying to do but I feel that the community leaders should ( after the Tier list is released ) redo the backroom like they did with the MBR. Give everyone equal opportunity to represent and go from there. On the brawl side we should not be considering our Leaders/BBR a joke and that should be resolved.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

It won't hurt the event, but neither would adhering to the BBRRC list.

 

[Alex Strife]

I do not agree with Picto/Ps2/Brinstar being on and, like I said, it is not about conforming but, rather, what I feel is the best competitive ruleset. I feel mine is. I am sorry, you know that I will not change it.

I have explained it a few times but that is not what this thread is about.

 

[Yikarur]

you can't mention PS2 and Brinstar/Picto in the same line PS2 is sooo ok in comparison to the other two.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

neither would adhering to the BBRRC list.

Yes, it would.

 

[DMG]

Difference in LGL would be a factor, unless the Ruleset released would fit that

 

[Tesh]

As Alex just pointed out, he is a major TO that doesn't agree with this stageslist and likely the ruleset that is coming out. And yet, his tournament will still probably be the biggest of 2012 and it will still get the most hype and attention. So what have we learned from this?

BBRRC won't really be able to unify under this ruleset. As another poster pointed out, most smaller tournaments leading up to APEX will use the APEX ruleset for practice. And if they wind up liking it better than this ruleset, they will stick with it.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Yes, it would.

Picto would. Then again I support picto being banned. Or are you going to claim that people are going to be alienated by a list that is, well, incredibly typical for the states?

 

[Abel1994]

Why is picto legit?

It has things that can kill you >.<

 

[AlphaZealot]

BBRRC won't really be able to unify under this ruleset. As another poster pointed out, most smaller tournaments leading up to APEX will use the APEX ruleset for practice. And if they wind up liking it better than this ruleset, they will stick with it.

If most tournaments are using X ruleset, X ruleset will be the Unity Ruleset.

That seems to be the biggest misconception about this. This ruleset will change and evolve - it is not static, this isn't the "BBR Recommended" ruleset that was based largely on theory and not practice, and therefor was slow to change.

 

[ShadowLink84]

If most tournaments are using X ruleset, X ruleset will be the Unity Ruleset.

That seems to be the biggest misconception about this. This ruleset will change and evolve - it is not static, this isn't the "BBR Recommended" ruleset that was based largely on theory and not practice, and therefor was slow to change.

Dring the few times I manage to get online I like to read what i miss and then I come back to things like this and I just go WTF?

No seriously, you saw many of the discussions that occurred, and you are honestly trying to say that the recommended ruleset was based largely on theory?
Even worse that it was slow to change?
Despite the fact you are using a ruleset that is not anything different from the rest of the bull**** that occurs in tournaments like the incredibly flawed LGL?
Even when the BBR ruleset was not used time and time again despite the MANY changes that occurred to it? Really?

Of course this is just me being a ******* but I think perhaps it may help if you refrained from making such comments since they are ...inaccurate.

Now I am going to finish packing the China, though I will say Alex going off and doing his own things is really, really, REALLY funny.

Actually I believe the statement you just made would likely be considered racist, as you seem to assume that a specific country is also a "race". I've never heard of the "Mexican" race, I've heard of people who are Hispanic, and they are in America, Mexico, Europe, etc. I've also heard of people who are Mexican, but that in itself is not a race as someone who is Mexican could be White, Black, Hispanic, etc, just as someone in America could be any race.

Somewhat inaccurate concerning the "mexican" race thing.
Dominicans are hispanic.
Puerto Ricans are hispanic.
Mexicans are hispanic.
They are all hispanic but they are all DIFFERENT.

Dominicans and Puerto Ricans and Mexicans all have different origins.
For example, Puerto Ricans originate from the Boricuan race.

The term Hispanic refers to those who lay claim to a Spanish bloodline. Furthermore, I don't think he was referring to country but to race in general and even then, his trolling was stupid.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Why is picto legit?

It has things that can kill you >.<

I really hope you just forgot "Randomly". Being able to kill the player is not a ban criteria; doing so randomly usually is.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Okay, after reading and seeing the response in this thread, and after having talked with Strife, there will no longer be exceptions for Apex or for any tournament regardless of size/prestige/international attendance/etc.

I need to thank Strife for being understanding and willing to cooperate and work with us on this. There will likely be some content associated with Apex, as an example the "Road to Apex" tournaments, which will be using the Unity ruleset, will likely have coverage.

 

[Alex Strife]

I think this will be best for all parties considering that we all want the same goal. Regardless this is a growing process and I think the concept of a unified ruleset is still something that is great.

Also, me and AZ are really cool with one another and it was something that we both felt was best for the community. I thank the BBR-RC for at least offering me the exception and I am hopefully for this communities future.

Like AZ said a while ago...this is the ruleset as of now it can probably change ^_^.

 

[KageMurphy]

What's the word on the LGL? Universal or MK only?