CorruptFate's Pit match up (Dead go to Master thread)

[ROOOOY!]

Uhh..conversation is a little confusing on this page.

If I'm understanding correctly, you're wondering about Sonic's approaches. I'll break it down.

Spinshot
The way I do it is SH Spincharge -> flick up on the c-stick, but you can do it grounded aswell which makes it unpredictable. Sonic arcs in the air at just slower than running speed. You'll be hard pressed to hit him with an arrow going at that speed. You can also attack out of it. It's basically a double jump, with the momentum the highest it can be right from the start.

ASC

Aerial Spin Charge (down B.) This thing has very good priority, and can be shield cancelled as soon as it hits the floor if neccessary.

Spindash

Side B. Opening hop has invincibility frames. Closes the gap on Pit fast.

Runninglol

Run -> Pshield -> run more. Having the highest ground speed in the game kinda helps close the gap on projectlile spammers.

Ugh. I still don't get what either one of them has over the other. It's neutral in my eyes.
Sonic takes away his gay little arrow game, and beats him on the ground.
Pit is better in the air.
Pit can be gimped (note : not WILL)
Pit kills a tiny bit easier than Sonic.
Sonic makes up for this for being heavier than Pit, so evens it out.

 

[Coffee™]

Stop wasting my time and read the posts already (sigh)

I've read your posts multiple times, if anything you're wasting my time but i'm not going to dwell on it any longer since you seem to still think you were right in posting what you did.

That made no sense at all.

Pit's Fsmash, Bair and Dsmash are also kill moves and they will kill earlier than Sonic's due to them being more reliable and easier to land. Sorry if that wasn't clear enough before.

How does aiming them down help? Do you know the speed and trajectory of it? Also Sonic's shield sliding distance?

Obviously you're not going to be shooting arrows at a Sonic who is already in a Spin Dash, or an ASC and approaching you, but if you aim down the arrows at the beginning of the attack Sonic no longer automatically avoids them but simply being crouching in his spin form. Also you still have yet to respond to me with what a Sonic can actually do to a Pit that chooses to simply spam arrows or attack from the safety of the ledge.

Helps never the less

True. But that doesn't justify Sonic having a direct advantage over Pit.

I'm not about to drag this topic down after this about who I think is better and it would probably do the other Pit and Sonic mains who post here to do the same and lets just focus on the actual point of the discussion. How exactly does Sonic cause Pit trouble and what can a Pit do to stop it.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Also you still have yet to respond to me with what a Sonic can actually do to a Pit that chooses to simply spam arrows or attack from the safety of the ledge.

For the arrows, look above. They do nothing to Sonic but force him to approach, which is easy enough because he has many ways to.
For the ledge camper, spinshot behind them to bair stagespike is so sexy.

 

[Chis]

I've read your posts multiple times, if anything you're wasting my time but i'm not going to dwell on it any longer since you seem to still think you were right in posting what you did.



Pit's Fsmash, Bair and Dsmash are also kill moves and they will kill earlier than Sonic's due to them being more reliable and easier to land. Sorry if that wasn't clear enough before.



Obviously you're not going to be shooting arrows at a Sonic who is already in a Spin Dash, or an ASC and approaching you, but if you aim down the arrows at the beginning of the attack Sonic no longer automatically avoids them but simply being crouching in his spin form. Also you still have yet to respond to me with what a Sonic can actually do to a Pit that chooses to simply spam arrows or attack from the safety of the ledge.



True. But that doesn't justify Sonic having a direct advantage over Pit.

I'm not about to drag this topic down after this about who I think is better and it would probably do the other Pit and Sonic mains who post here to do the same and lets just focus on the actual point of the discussion. How exactly does Sonic cause Pit trouble and what can a Pit do to stop it.

Sonic's air speed>Pit's unless he's gliding. Fsmash, Dsmash, Bair kills. Spinshot>arrows. Pit's light making that so called 'killing problem' not an issue. HA gimp, fast, 2 different timings and hard to avoid. Dair & spring explained below. Upsmash from shield>aerial attacks. UpB, Upsmash & side B have invincible frames.
Look for Sonic Orochi's guide and Lucky's tutorial thingy on Youtube. Also read all the stickys on the Sonic board.

Also people are saying they've never fought a good Sonic and you say I'm giving a generic response?

1) I gave you the tools to research so research. Your wasting my time by making me type the things again and again.

2) There's more then one way to land a tilted fsmash, dsmash or Bair.

Fsmash: stutter, dashdance, walking ect.
Bair: diving, RAR, spinshot ect.
Dsmash: Comes out quick, ASAP frames.

3) You don't know what a spinshot is? Use the tools I gave you and research it.

4) It's still an advantage.

 

[Coffee™]

*snip*.

Whatever, i'm done arguing with you.

For the arrows, look above. They do nothing to Sonic but force him to approach, which is easy enough because he has many ways to.
For the ledge camper, spinshot behind them to bair stagespike is so sexy.

Yea bair stage spikes work but they have to timed properly or they can just hit Pit when he has invincibility frames from the ledge, aside from that I can't really think of anything though, is there something I might be missing besides HA?

 

[ROOOOY!]

Probably not.
I don't get where you're going with this though. The only character who should be ledgecamping at all is Metaknight because he's a faggot. Can't Sonic just stand off him while he's jumping round the edge nairing and such and just side taunt him to death?

I still don't understand why this match-up wasn't considered neutral ages ago though.

I haven't heard any reasoning as to why it's Pit's advantage. Only that he can kill earlier, which while being true I still feel that Sonic has an easier time killing, thanks to his stutterstepped fsmash (which has the same range as Marth's, which is saying something), good range on dsmash and bair having good priority. Most of which probably kill around the same percentage as Pit's are going to be killing Sonic, and Sonic's are easier to land having more range.

 

[Chis]

Whatever, i'm done arguing with you.



Yea bair stage spikes work but they have to timed properly or they can just hit Pit when he has invincibility frames from the ledge, aside from that I can't really think of anything though, is there something I might be missing besides HA?

Did I make you angry by presenting facts while you presented none?

Ignorance is bliss isn't it Maniaclyrasist?

 

[kown]

Probably not.
I don't get where you're going with this though. The only character who should be ledgecamping at all is Metaknight because he's a faggot. Can't Sonic just stand off him while he's jumping round the edge nairing and such and just side taunt him to death?

I still don't understand why this match-up wasn't considered neutral ages ago though.

I haven't heard any reasoning as to why it's Pit's advantage. Only that he can kill earlier, which while being true I still feel that Sonic has an easier time killing, thanks to his stutterstepped fsmash (which has the same range as Marth's, which is saying something), good range on dsmash and bair having good priority. Most of which probably kill around the same percentage as Pit's are going to be killing Sonic, and Sonic's are easier to land having more range.

both sides of this debate are saying general things... I dont see how sonic has a better ground game. For pit arrows, ftilt, dtilt, side B, and pits grabs, are all very useful on the ground.
Ftilt has decievable range, dtilt sets up nicely for an areal, side b is ionno i dont use this move but appareantly its good to mix it up, and pits grabs are amazing for setups in the air.

I guess we agree that Pit has a better areal game while i may disagree about who has a better ground game. BUT some of pits ground moves set you up for areal moves if that makes sense...so your getting juggled essentially.

Did I make you angry by presenting facts while you presented none?

Ignorance is bliss isn't it Maniaclyrasist?

maturity goes a long way.... try not to anger those more, like a two year old. just let it go and keep your non helpful thoughts to yourself.

 

[Chis]

Was that aimed at me kown? You didn't word anything properly at all.

 

[Coffee™]

Probably not.
I don't get where you're going with this though. The only character who should be ledgecamping at all is Metaknight because he's a faggot. Can't Sonic just stand off him while he's jumping round the edge nairing and such and just side taunt him to death?

I'm asking because Pit is also capable of ledge camping arguably even better than Metaknight as he can actually hit characters at a distance with Arrows and while at close range can attack with Up Air, Nair and Fair and then proceed to follow up after that.

Did I make you angry by presenting facts while you presented none?

Ignorance is bliss isn't it Maniaclyrasist?

I'm not angry at all, I just think you're an idiot if that is your argument since you clearly don't read or understand what I post...Chris

 

[Chis]

Sigh...

You don't even know what a spinshot is. I gave you a the needed things to look for it. Look at to stickys at the Sonic thread. This isn't a 'My main is better then yours' thread. It's a matchup thread. If you feel I haven't given good reasons please look it up from the internet and Sonic boards. 'Lightspeed guide' is a good place to start on youtube. I don't know why you call me an idiot, I'm doing this for your benefit not mine. I achieve nothing from this but an disadvantage because you'll fully know the matchup and know what a good Sonic can do against a Pit and prepare.

And you spelt my name wrong. It's C H I S. Not C H R I S... :/

 

[Coffee™]

Sigh...

You don't even know what a spinshot is. I gave you a the needed things to look for it. Look at to stickys at the Sonic thread. This isn't a 'My main is better then yours' thread. It's a matchup thread. If you feel I haven't given good reasons please look it up from the internet and Sonic boards. 'Lightspeed guide' is a good place to start on youtube. I don't know why you call me an idiot, I'm doing this for your benefit not mine. I achieve nothing from this but an disadvantage because you'll fully know the matchup and know what a good Sonic can do against a Pit and prepare.

And you spelt my name wrong. It's C H I S. Not C H R I S... :/

Well C H I S, I never once said I don't know what a Spinshot is, I've played Sonic before so I know exactly what it is. Also I know its not a "My main is better than yours" thread that is why I said I'm done arguing and lets get back to the actual point if this thread. However, i'm not going allow you to taunt me as your actions are uncalled for.

 

[Chis]

What?

Well C H I S, I never once said I don't know what a Spinshot is, I've played Sonic before so I know exactly what it is. Also I know its not a "My main is better than yours" thread that is why I said I'm done arguing and lets get back to the actual point if this thread. However, i'm not going allow you to taunt me as your actions are uncalled for.

Taunt you? How am I doing that? Aren't you doing that by spelling my user name C H I S and not Chis?

 

[Coffee™]

Taunt you? How am I doing that? Aren't you doing that by spelling my user name C H I S and not Chis?

Dude i'm done, will you just move on. If your helping the board then do so.

 

[Chis]

Dude i'm done, will you just move on. If your helping the board then do so.

Lol ROOOOY! was right! Helping other boards are useless! This has taken up enough of my time. Screw this, next time you go to a tournament and fight a good Sonic, don't take any of my or ROOOOY!'s advice. Follow this match thread instead. Go ahead and jump into the ****, it'll make Sonic mainers jobs easier including mine.

Good luck sir, I'm done with your ignorance, I'm done.

Oh, and,
You're too SLOOOOW!

 

[Coffee™]

Lol ROOOOY! was right! Helping other boards are useless! This has taken up enough of my time. Screw this, next time you go to a tournament and fight a good Sonic, don't take any of my or ROOOOY!'s advice. Follow this match thread instead. Good ahead and jump into the ****, it'll make Sonic mainers jobs easier including mine.

Good luck sir, I'm done with your ignorance, I done.

Oh, and,
You're too SLOOOOW!

The same person who wonders why I call them an idiot....sad thing is ROOOOY was actually helpful, you on the other hand....

 

[Chis]

The same person who wonders why I call them an idiot....

You are hopeless...

You truly are a smash n00b are'nt you? Sometimes I question if you could even read.

Reseach

Spinshot is a double jump+spin charge making Sonic jump a large distance. If you actually, I don't know, READ what ROOOOY! said you would know that.

Research.

You're not proving Pit>Sonic by calling me an idiot you know. Only making yourself more like a n00b.

Reseach!

You're the most ignorant member i've come across yet and frankly I hope I never see your type again. People like you are why I hate the internet.

Research again because you're obviously having difficulties reading. No one sentence response. Tell me why Pit>Sonic.

 

[Crystanium]

Lol ROOOOY! was right! Helping other boards are useless!

So, you assume that this person who calls himself "ROOOOY!" is right, simply because of something that occurred here in the Pit Character Chat? As if any match-up thread wasn't unbias. Surely you'd know, considering the fact you created a thread about this kind of stuff in the Brawl Tactical Discussion.

This has taken up enough of my time. Screw this, next time you go to a tournament and fight a good Sonic, don't take any of my or ROOOOY!'s advice. Follow this match thread instead. Good ahead and jump into the ****, it'll make Sonic mainers jobs easier including mine.

Assuming any Pit player will ever see that blue hedgehog in a tournament. That's funny. Sonic is low-tier, whereas Pit is high-tier. We probably won't see a lot of Sonic players in tournaments.

Oh, and,
You're too SLOOOOW!

We have answers to this.

 

[Crystanium]

I can't help but laugh about how your post is so rich in irony, Chis.

You are hopeless...

You truly are a smash n00b are'nt you? Sometimes I question if you could even read.

Reseach

You say to Maniaclyrasist that he is "hopeless," that he is "truly" a "smash n00b." You insult him by asking, "Sometimes I question if you could even read." Then you say,

You're not proving Pit>Sonic by calling me an idiot you know. Only making yourself more like a n00b.

That's ironic, seeing that you tell Maniaclyrasist that calling you and "idiot" doesn't prove anything. So, why retaliate? You know, the pig doesn't mind rolling in the mud, especially if you're rolling in the mud with him. Not to mention, you spell "aren't" wrong, and you spell "research," "reseach" twice. Then you insult Maniaclyrasist by saying that he is "the most ignorant member" you've come across, and that you hope to never see him type again. I think you forgot the part where you also said,

Good luck sir, I'm done with your ignorance, I'm done.

If you were done, you wouldn't have replied. You did, though. This only means that all you're here for is to flame and be flamed. Seriously, Chis, you could try to show Maniaclyrasist how to be the better man and just leave without continuing your uncivilized speech. You're not making yourself look any better. And just for kicks.

 

[Chis]

I can't help but faceplam on every Pit users post. Tell me why Pit is better then Sonic. DK counters Snake tiers mean nothing in matchups. I using the Wii browser, you try it without a spelling mistake. You should to your research before making false assumptions. Do research, or ask Tenki. Be the better boards and take it when your wrong. And take the advice of Sonic mainers who post for your benefit to improve your chart. Don't be a bunch of n00bs and call each intelligent post and idiot. I'm tried of you guys. Good luck on your matchup chart.

 

[Coffee™]

I can't help but faceplam on every Pit users post. Tell me why Pit is better then Sonic. DK counters Snake tiers mean nothing in matchups. I using the Wii browser, you try it without a spelling mistake. You should to your research before making false assumptions. Do research, or ask Tenki. Be the better boards and take it when your wrong. And take the advice of Sonic mainers who post for your benefit to improve your chart. Don't be a bunch of n00bs and call each intelligent post and idiot. I'm tried of you guys. Good luck on your matchup chart.

Nothing more needs to be said, If you are finish with the Pit boards then simply stop posting, for the final time, my argument with you is over.

 

[Crystanium]

I can't help but faceplam on every Pit users post. Tell me why Pit is better then Sonic.

I have a better idea. Tell me why Pit is doing better than Sonic in tournaments. According to IvanEva's match-up chart, Pit has a small advantage against Sonic, which means Sonic has a small disadvantage against Pit. If you question IvanEva's chart, take it up with him. Furthermore, according to the chart, Pit has a better match-up against most characters, but Sonic suffers.

DK counters Snake tiers mean nothing in matchups.

Except you're the one who said something like, "Good luck fighting against a Sonic player at a tournament." What I said was relevant, since it may be unlikely that Sonic will be common in tournaments.

I using the Wii browser, you try it without a spelling mistake. You should to your research before making false assumptions.

Silly Chis is silly. What assumption did I make? All I pointed out was a spelling error. It's not like I said anything about the match-up between Pit and Sonic.

Do research, or ask Tenki.

I can't talk to Tenki, because when I three-stocked him with my Samus in our first time match, and then accidentally suicided in another one of our matches, he said there was lag. Heck, since he played against my Pit and beat my Pit, but said something about lag being present, I guess we can't get an accurate assessment on that, now can we?

Be the better boards and take it when your wrong.

Arrogant like that blue hedgehog. I think some people choose Sonic only because his personality fits theirs.

And take the advice of Sonic mainers who post for your benefit to improve your chart. Don't be a bunch of n00bs and call each intelligent post and idiot. I'm tried of you guys. Good luck on your matchup chart.

Well, we can ask other Sonic players for advice, whether they main him or use him as an alternative. You're not the all-infallible source of Sonic. So, when are you really, "Done" with this thread?

 

[Doctor X]

Ridiculous. Utterly ridiculous. Who do you play with, Chis? I've never heard of you. You seem to think pretty highly of yourself.

 

[Browny]

I suggest people here just ignore Chis' posts. No way anything he says is a representation of what sonic mainers in general think. seriously Chis, stop posting so much, 19.56 posts per day... and just go and actually play brawl more. Youre doing sonic mains way more harm than good here.

some minor corrections...
Re: frame data. Sonics tilts, grab and jabs all outrange/outspeed pits respective attacks. pits high damaging fsmash is about the only thing in pits favour on the groud. and sonics stutter stepped fsmash has a lot more range than marths fsmash. people need to get the mentality that marth has a long ranged fsmash out of thier head... sonics is equal to lucario/DK's when stutter stepped (thats bigger than ike btw)

 

[Admiral Pit]

Stop Spammin up this place and continue with the matchups, I already said my part.

 

[Dark Sonic]

both sides of this debate are saying general things... I dont see how sonic has a better ground game. For pit arrows, ftilt, dtilt, side B, and pits grabs, are all very useful on the ground.
Ftilt has decievable range, dtilt sets up nicely for an areal, side b is ionno i dont use this move but appareantly its good to mix it up, and pits grabs are amazing for setups in the air.

I guess we agree that Pit has a better areal game while i may disagree about who has a better ground game. BUT some of pits ground moves set you up for areal moves if that makes sense...so your getting juggled essentially.

Well, I might as well take a stab at it.

dtilt has bad range, and although it sets up for aerials nicely, it's still hard to land. Decent move I guess, but mostly as a punisher because Sonic's f-tilt will just outrange it if you try to use it on approach.
ftilt has great range yes, but is also fairly slow. I admit it is a very nice ground option.
side B-I still don't get what the hype is about this move. Yes it is hard to punish if used correctly, but it really doesn't do that much damage and the opportunity to use it safely rarely comes up.
Pit's grabs-I agree.

Now for Sonic's ground game
ftilt-great range and very little startup. It is a great spacing tool.
dtilt-may be a little unsafe, but sets up nicely for uairs, grabs, utilt, jab, ect.
jab-zomg 3 frame startup goodness.
side B-invincibility frames during the hop (which tears through arrows), and chains into Sonic's aerials for quick damage building
grabs-getting grabs with Sonic is rediculously easy, and his d-throw sets up for tech chasing quite nicely.

Also, I'd just like to point out that tier placement/tournament results have absolutely no place in a matchup discussion. DDD, who is tied for third in tournament results, has several large disadvantages. Marth, who is 7th by a wide margin), has one disadvantage.

Im not entirely sure what the best option is. I need to play a good sonic and experiment. But what usually comes after the spring is a dair. I could run away and pivot grab. It would have to be precise because of the no Dair lag tech.

If they're using the up B to escape aerial punishment, they're likely going to be facing away from you and dairing away from you, leaving the spring as a sort of cover (it's not going to do much, but it's keeping you away from me).

 

[Tenki]

Corrections to the Sonic vs Pit matchup (from July)

o_o; I got linked here from the tactical discussion boards.

wtf is going on? lol

I have a better idea. [1] Tell me why Pit is doing better than Sonic in tournaments. According to IvanEva's match-up chart, Pit has a small advantage against Sonic, which means Sonic has a small disadvantage against Pit. If you question IvanEva's chart, take it up with him. Furthermore, according to the chart, Pit has a better match-up against most characters, but Sonic suffers.


[2] I can't talk to Tenki, because when I three-stocked him with my Samus in our first time match, and then accidentally suicided in another one of our matches, he said there was lag. Heck, since he played against my Pit and beat my Pit, but said something about lag being present, I guess we can't get an accurate assessment on that, now can we?

[1] More representation for Pit users, you silly xD;; you make references to the lack of Sonic players all the time anyway.
[2] You silly, you can still talk to me <3
I'm a sore loser when it comes to anything that's not my opponent outmindgaming me, and that comes to alot of situations. xD

I also can't/won't play anyone on wifi [for fun or for playstyle exposure] unless it's the weekend, but even that's somewhat rare now ._.;
Also limiting my 'range' of players to midwest-east coast pref. cable connection to minimize lag johns, if anyone's interested lol

=======
@Chis: leave screwing with players to actual matches, but keep these matchup discussions by addressing arguments relating to the matchup.
=======
Unfortunately, I don't have much matchup experience with Pit, but I can correct/clear up most questions/misconceptions about Sonic.

I really get the general feeling that Aerial Pit > Sonic and Pit (>)= Sonic on the ground. Angel ring isn't hard to get behind (spinshot or homing attack), or to clang-cancel with something like grounded spindash or dash attack, and arrows I'm sure can be eaten by ASC, N-air, or some other moves, if not just shield dashing lol. But just avoid moves with ending lag/commitment and you should be fine.

I really would like a TL;DR summary of the actual matchup-related arguments that aren't from the July round, since apparently almost none of those people at the time fought any competent Sonic mains lol. I can help with that stuff.

Examples to fix from the July round:
- off-stage, B-air is a good killer for Sonic, and F-smash/D-smash kill much earlier than B-air.
- It's the newer/less-experienced/wifi Sonic players that over abuse grounded spindash as an actual approach. WoI push should be airdodgeable, and Sonic can airdodge out of all his recovery options aside from homing attack, but even after HA, he can still spring or do it again.
- Sonic should only get grab-gimped out of spring for one of the two reasons: 1) Mis-spacing the spring so that he passes the ledge after invincibility frames and before he can airdodge (Sonic player's fault) or 2) using an attack from a low spring jump and getting shield-grabbed out of it (in a sense, Sonic player's fault, but more reliant on the person grabbing him)

=========

From the title, it looks like you guys should be discussing Yoshi. If it's screwing up your order and you wanna continue this, I suggest moving it to this thread:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=161598

That's a general matchup question/discussion thread, and our current 'updating' thread is separate from it, so it shouldn't be a problem.

apologies/thanks.

 

[kupo15]

Wow, I come back to flames....

dtilt has bad range, and although it sets up for aerials nicely, it's still hard to land.

Idk if your referring to Pits dtilt but it has the same range as Snakes Ftilt. The hitbox extends past the blade slightly. The hardest part about timing is Sonics ground speed. If your used to that, it should be fine.

I can't really comment right now but here is the biggest advantage for Pit. Playing good defense (as for anyone vs sonic)

There are a lot of moves with bad cool lag and are easily punishable.

Dash attack: All you have to do is shield this(if your ready for it) and you have enough time to dash back a grab.

Homing: Huge startup and ending lag. This makes punishment really easy. All Pits have to do is Uair while your charging or dodge the strike by running or some form of dodging then punish with a bair or another move.

Side B: Yes this has super armor but still, all you really need to do is shield it and retaliate. I believe you can quickly cancel this at some point with another move like the Homing or spring to abruptly stop your momentum. But if they do this, the homing was already covered as well as what to do about the spring. Its very predictable.

Down B: Im not entirely sure about what makes this different from side B.

So basically. IMO, as long as you shield his attacks, you have taken away a lot of control. Because most of his attacks go past you when performed, shielding the attack will not allow him to stay close and punish easily. ANd some moves have a good amount of time where you can catch up and punish.....if you don't trip!

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong

And btw, like I said before, Pit is medium weight, not light weight. This really makes a difference with Sonic lacking KO power.

And also, I have a friend who plays Sonic, (not the best) but I have some experience at the basic level.

 

[Mmac]

Wow, this thread was hijacked to hell >_>

 

[Chis]

Finally, productivity! : )

My posts represent myself, not others. What's my post count have to do with anything. Please ignore djbrowny. Doctor X, basing your opinion on the internet is not a good idea. I never said I was 100% right, I kept asking for your opinion on Pit. The posts above Doctor X aren't worth a reply as they're flame bait. Everyone under djbrowny, thanks I learned stuff from those posts.

 

[Doctor X]

Doctor X, basing your opinion on the internet is not a good idea.

What? On the internet? What are you talking about? I asked you who you played with, as in, offline. Do you play with anybody offline?

 

[kown]

pit forums are too good.

sooo how about that yoshi?....lol

 

[Admiral Pit]

I think Yoshi was covered with that small information, and we got this before spamfest...
-Eggs, B-air, and D-air are trouble,
-F-tilt is useful here due to its range,
-Yoshi's little Chaingrab doesnt work on Pit,
-Use Pit's Mirror Shield on Egg Roll if the Yoshi actually uses it in an attempt to reverse and KO him,
-Be Cautious of a ledgecamping Yoshi and his eggs, and the Yoshi can choose to come up with either a D-air or U-air
-Pit will be vulnerable if he is above a Yoshi for we have problems with the U-air, Usmash and U-tilt
-Yoshi's Super Armor Frames will be annoying, and we all know it.

 

[Tenki]

Side B: Yes this has super armor but still, all you really need to do is shield it and retaliate. I believe you can quickly cancel this at some point with another move like the Homing or spring to abruptly stop your momentum. But if they do this, the homing was already covered as well as what to do about the spring. Its very predictable.

Down B: Im not entirely sure about what makes this different from side B.

So basically. IMO, as long as you shield his attacks, you have taken away a lot of control. Because most of his attacks go past you when performed, shielding the attack will not allow him to stay close and punish easily. ANd some moves have a good amount of time where you can catch up and punish.....if you don't trip!

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong

- Homing attack should generally be used as a lag punisher/move bait. Like if he's about to land and then you try to camp it with AR or smash or something, Homing Attack can stop his momentum and knock you away. It's pretty unreliable, and it's generally used in matches by good Sonic players as much as good Ikes recover with side-B (aka: not often.)
- Side-B has invincibility frames on release, not SA. It's possible to double jump and perform an aerial/airdodge or another special. It's possible to shield cancel this while it's charging. It might sound trivial, (and note that this won't affect the matchup), but a simple mindgame application that catches many players include prepping the opponent to react to a normal side-B, then abruptly cancelling the charge and grabbing the person as they shield or attack.
- Aerial down-B (Aerial Spin Charge / "ASC") can be shield cancelled upon landing. It does multiple hits so if you shield a high ASC, it'll do some shield damage while being too high to grab. If it hits your shield as it lands, he can go for a grab, jump, or spotdodge to avoid a possible counterattack. If he lands it and cancels it in front of you, it's setting up for an anti-grab counterattack. And of course, there's always the situation where he won't cancel it and go into the roll attack. The multiple hit deal (unstale: 11 + 7) sets up for aerials and makes ASC his best damager hands down, and one of his better mindgame options.

Honestly, you're better off doing AR or some aerial to stop an ASC lol.

,'/ The Pit players that gave me trouble stayed and spaced in the air. Sonic's aerial topspeed might be better than Pit's (which is a plus for chasing/escaping), but Pit's acceleration I believe is much better, so he can change from a forward to retreating aerial and outmanuever Sonic.

Just ignore everything I said about mindgames, since that doesn't affect a "true" matchup discussion, and say 'to hell with it, attack him out of his spindashes', but just keep in mind that mindgames/mixup potential don't affect a matchup, but they give the player alot more versatility, and, regardless of which character you use, can make actually fighting a Sonic main... troublesome.

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Continue on with your Yoshi discussion XD

 

[Dark Sonic]

Idk if your referring to Pits dtilt but it has the same range as Snakes Ftilt. The hitbox extends past the blade slightly. The hardest part about timing is Sonics ground speed. If your used to that, it should be fine.

Irronically Sonic's f-tilt outranges Snake's f-tilt (the first hit anyway). And no decent Sonic player will just run straight into your attacks. He may get grabbed for running up and shielding a few times yes, but they should never be running directly into you d-tilt

Dash attack: All you have to do is shield this(if your ready for it) and you have enough time to dash back a grab.

Sonic should not be using the dash attack unless it is to punish one of your less laggy attacks.

Homing: Huge startup and ending lag. This makes punishment really easy. All Pits have to do is Uair while your charging or dodge the strike by running or some form of dodging then punish with a bair or another move.

Homming attack should not be used either. It's actually one of Sonic's worst moves.

Side B: Yes this has super armor but still, all you really need to do is shield it and retaliate. I believe you can quickly cancel this at some point with another move like the Homing or spring to abruptly stop your momentum. But if they do this, the homing was already covered as well as what to do about the spring. Its very predictable.

Invincibility frames, not super armor. And if you shield it I just jump cancel, or airdodge, or up B, or do an aerial, or keep going, ect. It's not like I only have two ways to cancel it.

Down B: Im not entirely sure about what makes this different from side B.

On the ground, not much besides more damage and slightly more priority (and no invincible hop). In the air? Massive priority, multiple hits, shield cancellable upon hitting the ground. If you shield this I eat through 2/3 of your shield and get a shield stabbing SDJ (spin dash jump attack)->aerial, a free grab, or (if I'm being fancy), a shield stabbing up smash.

So basically. IMO, as long as you shield his attacks, you have taken away a lot of control.

Not really, considering Sonic's grab game is actually really good.

Because most of his attacks go past you when performed, shielding the attack will not allow him to stay close and punish easily. ANd some moves have a good amount of time where you can catch up and punish.....if you don't trip!

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong

ASC is shield cancelable upon hitting the ground, so no, I don't go past you. In fact I stay right in front of you but have an nice frame advantage from my ASC pounding on your shield.

Spinshot approaches also leave me right next to you, and if you shield the bair then I'm completely safe

And btw, like I said before, Pit is medium weight, not light weight. This really makes a difference with Sonic lacking KO power.

Sonic is also heavier than Pit, so Pit's killing problems (not as bad as Sonic's) will also make a difference. Let's face it, neither of these characters are getting gimped unless the player really screws up, so most of the KOs will comb from out right killing each other

Also, Sonic does not lack KO power, it's just that a lot of Sonic players stale out his KO moves (f-smash and bair mostly, d-smash is rarely used)

So I decided to run some tests to see just how big the gap in killing power really is.
Sonic killing pit:
fsmash-140% (corrected after retesting)
dsmash-150%
bair-158%
utilt (lol)-185%

Pit killing Sonic:
bair-125%
fsmash-136%
dsmash-164%
ftilt-188%

So the gap in killing power is 15% assuming that both moves are completely unstale. That's actually a much smaller gap than I had expected, and considering that Pit's bair is harder to land than Sonic's f-smash (shorter reach, needs to be sweetspotted, less priority), I'd say it's just as hard to kill with Pit as it is to kill with Sonic.

And also, I have a friend who plays Sonic, (not the best) but I have some experience at the basic level.

Basic level Sonics are terrible, in the same way that basic level Pits are terrible. They don't make good use of Sonic's cancels, they don't make use of Sonic's running speed, and they don't make good use of Sonic's grab game, all of which have become staples for playing Sonic.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Ugh, this'll be my last post here, and I hope the last Sonic mains, and in a way I'm sorry I brought it up.
It's just the information on the front page for Sonic is actually wrong for the most part, and there wasn't actually any tips on how to beat Sonic at all other than "lol priority", and actually wanted a more reliable section which wasn't wrong and which could actually be useful to people new to the match-up. I was actually trying to help you guys with offering information, but it sorta turned into a flame war :\

So, you assume that this person who calls himself "ROOOOY!" is right, simply because of something that occurred here in the Pit Character Chat? As if any match-up thread wasn't unbias.

I actually find that offensive. I have only stated pure fact here, and have not exaggerated in any way, because that's what I strive to do with all my posts.

Tenki's more or less sorted out all the misconceptions about Sonic really, aside the fact that Sonic completely outranges Pit's ground and grab game with his own.

So yeah...

*offers peace hugs*?

Get back to discussing Yoshi or something xD
Peace out guys.

 

[Tenki]

Irronically Sonic's f-tilt outranges Snake's f-tilt (the first hit anyway).


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Also, Sonic does not lack KO power, it's just that a lot of Sonic players stale out his KO moves (f-smash and bair mostly, d-smash is rarely used)

So I decided to run some tests to see just how big the gap in killing power really is.
Sonic killing pit:
fsmash-138%
dsmash-150%
bair-158%
utilt (lol)-185%

Pit killing Sonic:
bair-125%
fsmash-136%
dsmash-164%
ftilt-188%

So the gap in killing power is 13% assuming that both moves are completely unstale. That's actually a much smaller gap than I had expected, and considering that Pit's bair is harder to land than Sonic's f-smash (shorter reach, needs to be sweetspotted, less priority), I'd say it's just as hard to kill with Pit as it is to kill with Sonic.

Basic level Sonics are terrible, in the same way that basic level Pits are terrible. They don't make good use of Sonic's cancels, they don't make use of Sonic's running speed, and they don't make good use of Sonic's grab game, all of which have become staples for playing Sonic.

- Sonic's F-tilt outranging Snake's F-tilt - is that assuming that Sonic is standing out of range, then hitting Snake after he does the first part? Because that's not necessarily... outranging it.

- way to repeat pretty much everything from the post right before yours lol.

- btw, on the kill move testing, did you do appropriate DI? (ex: hold up-toward stage for side kills)

 

[Dark Sonic]

-I had Snake f-tilt and return to neutral, then had Sonic f-tilt and return to neutral. I nudged Snake foward until one of them hit. Both characters had the c-stick set to attack so that I could ensure that I was not moving them foward when attacking. Sonic's f-tilt does indeed outrange the first hit of Snake's f-tilt.

-I was typing mine up and doing the tests when you posted. My bad

-Yes. I actually adjusted the DI until the trajectory sent them straight at the corner. For each move I had them do that DI (up and towards/just up/up and a tiny bit away), then do their fastest aerial, then use their second jump. After each trial I killed both characters, having the defending character die first so that they respond in the middle.

edit: I feel kinda bad that we're hijacking their thread though. If it's really bothering you guys I'll stop posting here. I just wanted to clear up some misconceptions about Sonic (running into attacks, light weight, low KO power, no range, no priority, ect.), since most of them (while still being problems) are rediculously exaggerated.

 

[Coffee™]

I actually find that offensive. I have only stated pure fact here, and have not exaggerated in any way, because that's what I strive to do with all my posts.

You probably shouldn't feel offended as i'm sure Dryn's post was more directed at Chis and how he was acting than your actual intelligence about Sonic. Your posts were actually helpful until the thread started to degrade into flaming.

 

[kown]

im pretty sure ftilt kills quicker than 188 percent.

Also since im taking statistics, thiers a possibility with your test being very inaccurate.