CorruptFate's Pit match up (Dead go to Master thread)

[Admiral Pit]

For your last part, it's because Yoshi's Chaingrab DOESNT WORK on Pit, which is why it's a good thing.

 

[kown]

do DK next.

 

[Sharkz]

do DK next.

or pika...

 

[ROOOOY!]

I'm sorry, I know it's Yoshi time but the Sonic section has been REALLY bugging me. Most of it is pure fiction. And the fact that most of the information came from someone that has never even played against a human Sonic makes me either want to laugh or cry, I don't know which.

 

[Doctor X]

I'm sorry, I know it's Yoshi time but the Sonic section has been REALLY bugging me. Most of it is pure fiction. And the fact that most of the information came from someone that has never even played against a human Sonic makes me either want to laugh or cry, I don't know which.

Actually I think I agree. I wish I had more to contribute back then. I've had some more experience against him recently since Anther picked him up and EarthHero mains him.

I still think Sonic is bad and I revise none of my previous statements about him. However, I will add that arrows are generally not so great against him. He may not be able to out-prioritize you, but if there's one thing Sonic can do well is rush at you. Most of the time firing an arrow against a good Sonic will result in getting dash-attacked-- straight underneath the arrow punishing the lag-- which in itself is not usually that big of a deal but it does sacrifice control of the match which is really the main advantage you have against him.

Watch out for homing-attack edgeguards. They aren't particularly hard to avoid, but if you aren't used to them they can really mess you up-- taking you out of a glide from underneath, for example. There's really nothing you can do about that if he's below you already charging it, so if you're in this situation do not glide. You may be tempted to try to beat it with the glide attack but it almost never works and there's no reason to risk it most of the time.

Another thing... if he's on the stage above you and you have to use your WoI? You're dead. The spring from his upB will see to that if his homing attack or aerials don't. If he can't hit you with it he's a complete failure of a player. It's seriously impossible to evade. You simply can't move fast enough in WoI. As against every character, try to avoid being forced to use your Wings in this situation, but with Sonic make special note... yet another reason why not gliding when he's using his homing attack is important.

 

[ROOOOY!]

I had no idea Anther was using Sonic. Interesting.

And yeah, arrows against Sonic generally won't work. Spinshot, dash attack under it, generally closing the gap to safetly arrow spam is easy for Sonic due to his spinshot and his high ground speed.

A few of the things that annoyed me were that "there was lag from his dair." That'd be a pretty fail Sonic, as it autocancels from a specific height, and Sonic's won't use that attack much anyways because it's not that great.
Where dair does excel is in gimping. If you're WoI ing then a dair will kill you, and Sonic can safetly make it back to the stage afterwards because unlike ZSS', he can do things after it, so springing back to the stage is pretty clever.

Another thing that annoyed me was "Sonic is lighter and weaker than Pit, so use that to your advantage"
I don't get the notion that Sonic is light, he's in the upper half weight-wise and is infact heavier than Pit.
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162374
Weaker is an interesting subject. I don't really see what area Sonic is weak in myself.

There's probably more made up things, but I don't care to go back and check.

One pretty important thing is Sonic's ground game. I think his ftilt outranges everything Pit has, which is pretty problematic for you. Also his ASC combos are a great way to rack up damage. If he's not racking up 30%+ each time, then they're doing it wrong.
I think both characters have a fairly hard job killing each other, none have really pronounced killing moves (Sonic's killing problem is MASSIVELY overexaggerated), Sonic being able to gimp Pit helps him, though.

Personally, I don't think this is a Pit advantage at all. IMO, it's 55:45 in Sonic's favour. The only thing stopping it being 60:40 and being an actual advantage as opposed to neutral is Pit's SH aerials, they've always screwed me over.

 

[Chis]

I loled at low priority in the air. Uair has one of the highest priorities in the game. Plus Sonic has the strongest up throw in the game. What were you smoking? Plus B> invincible frames, like to see Pit knock him out of that.

 

[kown]

what CAN sonic kill with? fsmash doesnt even work sometimes.. and your not going to gimp a good pit.
and could u help us against sonic and not tell us everything that we did wrong.....maybe fix the problem.

 

[Chis]

Sonic's fsmash = Mario's fsmash

Unless a sucky Sonic been spamming it the whole match of course it wont kill.
Gimp? HA, Dair or spring. A good Sonic should gimp a good Pit.

 

[kown]

the only way to gimp a pit is by getting him to blue wings....which means hitting him about 3 times in the air.... and than once hes in blue wings you hvae ot hit him again...a good pit wont get gimped.

i dont know what else kills besides fsmash....fsmash for most chars is a pretty predictable move to see coming so that wouldnt work half the time.

sucky sonic.... mr 3000 has one of the best sonics.

 

[Coffee™]

i dont know what else kills besides fsmash....fsmash for most chars is a pretty predictable move to see coming so that wouldnt work half the time.

Sonic's Bair is also a pretty good kill move, but that's about it in terms of actual kill moves.

I've played both against Sonic and with Sonic and I disagree with some of ROOOOYs statements. Sonic is indeed problematic for Pit at times due to his fast ground speed (which makes it easy for him to capitalize on Pit's mistakes) and his ability to duck under uncontrolled arrows but I still wouldn't put the matchup in Sonic's favour. Despite what most people say Pit does have decent kill moves in Fsmash, Dsmash, Bair and Glair which means he's going to have an easier time killing Sonic than Sonic does Pit.

Pits SH-Nair and AR are also pretty big problems for an approaching Sonic as Sonic has no moves with a higher priority that can be used as an approach. (you have to watch out when using AR however as it has some easily exploitable lag). Despite how bad things may sound from the Sonic side, Sonic does have an advantage over Pit over the edge as he can gimp Pit way easier than Pit can gimp him and WoI against Sonic is a big no, as if you find yourself having to use it from below a stage, your dead, simple as that, unless you are using WoI to fly under a stage, but as long as you aim to recover higher than normal, you shouldn't have too much problems with Sonic characterwise. I'd say the matchup is about 60:40 in Pits favour.

 

[kown]

yea a good pit wont use WOI under the stage. and i cant find a situation where hed have to either.

 

[ROOOOY!]

what CAN sonic kill with? fsmash doesnt even work sometimes.. and your not going to gimp a good pit.
and could u help us against sonic and not tell us everything that we did wrong.....maybe fix the problem.

Actually, I needed to tell you what you did wrong because it's absolutely WRONG information, and if people are reading this and depending on it for the specific match-up then they're going to be misinformed.

Gimping is fully possible, it's just a good Pit will avoid it fairly often.

Sonic's three main kill moves from strongest to weakest are Bair, Fsmash and Dsmash.
From the centre of Final Destination will full and correct DI, the weaker one will be killing at around 155%. From the edge bair will be killing at like, just over 110% with full DI. Landing fsmash is not a problem as EVERYONE makes it out to be, because it can be stutterstepped which considerably increases the range.

And Maniacal, AR (I presume you mean Side B?) is pretty useless. All of Sonic's approaches are cancellable, and Sonic can actually cancel his spindash/charge and jab through it, rofl.
That, and ASC cuts through it.
SH Nair is probably the move I have most trouble with, though.

 

[kown]

as u said we can approach with SHnair....please explain more things we can do? instead of making sonic look like an amzing match up against pit in the pit thread.

 

[ROOOOY!]

I don't know, I don't really have great knowledge of Pit. What I do know is that his spacing abilities are really bad due to his lack of range, and spacing against Sonic is difficult anyway due to his speed.
And I don't think I've made Sonic out to be amazing at all. In fact, I've seen multiple Pit mains in this thread talking about Sonic giving Pit problems offstage, so I'm not the one overstating things here.

What annoys me again is that although people are still saying Pit has the advantage, they've given no reasoning for it at all. That's not my job, that's your lots.

 

[Chis]

the only way to gimp a pit is by getting him to blue wings....which means hitting him about 3 times in the air.... and than once hes in blue wings you hvae ot hit him again...a good pit wont get gimped.

i dont know what else kills besides fsmash....fsmash for most chars is a pretty predictable move to see coming so that wouldnt work half the time.

sucky sonic.... mr 3000 has one of the best sonics.

Don't miss quote me. I never said Mr. 3000 sucked.

Walking fsmash, stutterstep fsmash ect.

I don't care if it's the Pit boards. 40:60 Sonic.

 

[Coffee™]

And Maniacal, AR (I presume you mean Side B?) is pretty useless. All of Sonic's approaches are cancellable, and Sonic can actually cancel his spindash/charge and jab through it, rofl.
That, and ASC cuts through it.

It's just Maniac, and I don't want to make it seem like AR should be a move that would be thrown out every time you see a Sonic approaching as it's like you said, most of Sonic's approaches are cancellable and you will be punished for it. However, that doesn't mean it a bad move against a Sonic approach, as it will stop most of his approaches if left uncancelled, however it is a decent move to throw out every once in a while to catch an unprepared or overly aggressive Sonic.

 

[ROOOOY!]

It's just Maniac, and I don't want to make it seem like AR should be a move that would be thrown out every time you see a Sonic approaching as it's like you said, most of Sonic's approaches are cancellable and you will be punished for it. However, that doesn't mean it a bad move against a Sonic approach, as it will stop most of his approaches if left uncancelled, however it is a decent move to throw out every once in a while to catch an unprepared or overly aggressive Sonic.

Agreed. Note though, if he spindashes right next to you and you AR, the spincharge has invincibility frames through the first half of the 'pop-up' and so Sonic will plow right through it like he would any move.

I'm interested as to what you guys think Pit has over Sonic though. Being able to kill only very marginally earlier doesn't make it Pit's advantage.

 

[kupo15]

I really dont think Sonic is too much of a problem. Granted I have never played a good one but the key with anyone fast is to play a little more defensive since you cant match the speed. Shield grabbing or waiting for the Dtilt opportunity and getting them in the air against their will is a good way to slow them down. I no a couple of Sonic tricks but not all. Regardless, I think Pit has the adv.

 

[ROOOOY!]

While I agree on the defensive part, that's not a reason why Pit has the advantage, that's how to play in this match-up.
Oh, and knocking Sonic into the air will leave you with a spring in your face. Springvincibility frames are hax.

 

[Coffee™]

I don't care if it's the Pit boards. 40:60 Sonic.

What annoys me again is that although people are still saying *(Sonic)* has the advantage, they've given no reasoning for it at all. That's not my job, that's your lots.

So....yea.

Anyway to the Sonic mains, what does Sonic have in reply to a ledge camping Pit playstyle? (Up airs, Arrows, Fairs all from the ledge) All I can think of is a Stage Spike Bair which might not work because of the invincibility frames and his homing attack.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Huh? I wrote that people are saying Pit has that advantage, yet giving no reasoning.

I brought this up to help people, not to change match-up decisions and such. What concerned me is that a lot of the things in the Sonic section were false, and there was no real reasoning as to why Pit has the advantage. Now like I said before, if new people read that bit for help, they'd be confused and just go away thinking that "hey, Sonic has no priority, so that equals win!"
I'd do this in the Fox boards too because the write up there isn't exactly..thorough, but everytime I go there I just can't take it seriously so leave (which is a shame cos I kinda second Fox) Seriously, go check it out xD

 

[Deleted member]

Yoshi eh? Its about an even matchup in my opinion. Yoshi can side b through arrows if you try to spam them, but its kinda situational, usually bettter to just dodge. Yoshi combos pit very easily, pit probably has one of the toughest times getting out of his combos due to an awful dair. The main threat pit poses is his fsmash, just because it has so much range and beats our back air. I would say pit's main focus would be to prevent yoshi from gettin off a back air on him, and should play defensively. Grab yoshi out of side b, fsmash or shield grab(if your shield isnt weakened) back air, and try to keep your distance. Yoshi has a very dangerous very close range game with his amazing jab and ftilt, so space yourself with retreating fairs. I dont know exactly what else to say, dont charge yoshi cuz you'll get pivot grabbed.

 

[kupo15]

While I agree on the defensive part, that's not a reason why Pit has the advantage, that's how to play in this match-up.
Oh, and knocking Sonic into the air will leave you with a spring in your face. Springvincibility frames are hax.

Yea, I know about the spring tricks and that is to be assumed. While your up there, its kinda predictable whats going to happen next. I mean, I have several options to try and counter your spring:
-Roll
-Shield
-Wingdash
-Run
-other options

Im not entirely sure what the best option is. I need to play a good sonic and experiment. But what usually comes after the spring is a dair. I could run away and pivot grab. It would have to be precise because of the no Dair lag tech. But besides the dair, he isn't really any faster than the majority of the characters.

 

[Chis]

So....yea.

Anyway to the Sonic mains, what does Sonic have in reply to a ledge camping Pit playstyle? (Up airs, Arrows, Fairs all from the ledge) All I can think of is a Stage Spike Bair which might not work because of the invincibility frames and his homing attack.

Read all my post before that before trying to discredit me. >_>

 

[Coffee™]

Read all my post before that before trying to discredit me. >_>

None of your posts actually state a good reason as to why Sonic should be 60:40 > Pit aside from "a good Sonic should gimp a Pit". I'm not trying to discredit you but I would at least like to see some reasoning to your posts instead of a generic Sonic> Pit response.

 

[ROOOOY!]

You're right on that kupo. However, a good Sonic will use his spring sparingly onstage because they are aware of the threat of being landing camped.

None of your posts actually state a good reason as to why Sonic should be 60:40 > Pit aside from "a good Sonic should gimp a Pit". I'm not trying to discredit you but I would at least like to see some reasoning to your posts instead of a generic Sonic> Pit response.

That's the thing though, it's difficult to reason because there's little between the two.
The way I see it :

Pit > Sonic in the air
Sonic > Pit on the ground.

Factor in that Sonic can gimp Pit, and that Pit can kill very slightly earlier, and I think it's neutral (55:45 Sonic's favour)

 

[kown]

its not easy gimping pit either.....and when u guys talk about the spring u act like it homes in on to the player...wait does it? i dont think so. can someone list to me the "spring tricks" also and give a really short explanation of what they do.

 

[Chis]

I loled at low priority in the air. Uair has one of the highest priorities in the game. Plus Sonic has the strongest up throw in the game. What were you smoking? Plus B> invincible frames, like to see Pit knock him out of that.

Sonic's fsmash = Mario's fsmash

Unless a sucky Sonic been spamming it the whole match of course it wont kill.
Gimp? HA, Dair or spring. A good Sonic should gimp a good Pit.

None of your posts actually state a good reason as to why Sonic should be 60:40 > Pit aside from "a good Sonic should gimp a Pit". I'm not trying to discredit you but I would at least like to see some reasoning to your posts instead of a generic Sonic> Pit response.

Sonic's air speed>Pit's unless he's gliding. Fsmash, Dsmash, Bair kills. Spinshot>arrows. Pit's light making that so called 'killing problem' not an issue. HA gimp, fast, 2 different timings and hard to avoid. Dair & spring explained below. Upsmash from shield>aerial attacks. UpB, Upsmash & side B have invincible frames.
Look for Sonic Orochi's guide and Lucky's tutorial thingy on Youtube. Also read all the stickys on the Sonic board.

Also people are saying they've never fought a good Sonic and you say I'm giving a generic response?

 

[ROOOOY!]

its not easy gimping pit either.....and when u guys talk about the spring u act like it homes in on to the player...wait does it? i dont think so. can someone list to me the "spring tricks" also and give a really short explanation of what they do.

I've actually read every single one of my posts in this thread. How many times have I mentioned the spring in gimping?
0
The spring isn't really all the great against Pit, he can avoid it. You just have to be only just above Pit or have great predicting skills to hit him with it. There are other options for gimping too. Homing Attack, spinshot -> fair/nair as they both have good knockback, dair (a semi-spike if the opponent DI's incorrectly, useful even if they do) and more.
The spring has a really nice knockback angle, particularly at higher percents though.
I'd advise to never ever use WoI though. That + Homing attack = death.

There really isn't that much use for the spring really offstage other than it being a straight falling projectile.
Onstage, it can be quite nice.

Dash attack late hit -> Up B -> uair -> death
The spring takes them both upwards, lol.

 

[kupo15]

I still would have to agree with kown that you should not make gimping your primary reason for sonics adv. Good pits dont get gimped. We have 3 midair jumps and a glide. That should be plenty to get back. If I feel threatened, I can WoI really early and fly really high like what snakes do and get safely over the edge. Fast fall with a well timed air dodge and Im back. Good pits are not going to WoI in front of you so you can freely gimp them. You really need to earn the Gimp but generally if gimping pits is incorporated into your strategy the way you claim, they (pits) are noobs.

Also, good pits also know how to WoI at the right time so that if you were to hit us out, we still have our Up B.

Also, Pit is Mid weight which is why everyone says, "Why wont you die!!?"

 

[Chis]

I still would have to agree with kown that you should not make gimping your primary reason for sonics adv. Good pits dont get gimped. We have 3 midair jumps and a glide. That should be plenty to get back. If I feel threatened, I can WoI really early and fly really high like what snakes do and get safely over the edge. Fast fall with a well timed air dodge and Im back. Good pits are not going to WoI in front of you so you can freely gimp them. You really need to earn the Gimp but generally if gimping pits is incorporated into your strategy the way you claim, they (pits) are noobs.

Also, good pits also know how to WoI at the right time so that if you were to hit us out, we still have our Up B.

Also, Pit is Mid weight which is why everyone says, "Why wont you die!!?"

Sonic's air speed>Pit's unless he's gliding. Fsmash, Dsmash, Bair kills. Spinshot>arrows. Pit's light making that so called 'killing problem' not an issue. HA gimp, fast, 2 different timings and hard to avoid. Dair & spring explained below. Upsmash from shield>aerial attacks. UpB, Upsmash & side B have invincible frames.
Look for Sonic Orochi's guide and Lucky's tutorial thingy on Youtube. Also read all the stickys on the Sonic board.

Also people are saying they've never fought a good Sonic and you say I'm giving a generic response?

Now YOU tell me what advantages Pit has to make it not a disadvantage?

 

[kown]

Now YOU tell me what advantages Pit has to make it not a disadvantage?

Pit has a better air game. pit has a better long range ground and air game. i think pit is better close range (nair) in particular. but i think a dair and fair could work too.

 

[ROOOOY!]

If by 'long range' you mean arrows, I hope you're joking. Arrows are next to useless in this matchup.
Sonic has a better ground game, whilst Pit has a better air game.

 

[kown]

If by 'long range' you mean arrows, I hope you're joking. Arrows are next to useless in this matchup.
Sonic has a better ground game, whilst Pit has a better air game.

arrows are never useless. u tell me how sonic is going to approach...after dodging arrows....and than hopinng i dont have a plan once u get within range.

 

[Chis]

arrows are never useless. u tell me how sonic is going to approach...after dodging arrows....and than hopinng i dont have a plan once u get within range.

Aerial Spin Charge, walking, running, RAR, SuperRoll, DAC invincible frames ect.

 

[kown]

im sure a lot of those moves will result in an arrow. i dont know what half those moves are....but it seems like your coming to me and thats all that matters. I can easily go in the air, back up, fire more, approach with an areal unexpectedly. If your always coming to me than im always a step ahead...if that makes sense...i guess u could say the ebst offense is a good defense...but thats stretching it a little bit.

 

[Coffee™]

Also people are saying they've never fought a good Sonic and you say I'm giving a generic response?

I read your previous posts and I still say that they are generic, and people saying they haven't played a good Sonic has nothing to do with my response. I am not one of those people and as I said in my first post, I have played both versus Sonic and as Sonic and I for the most part can clearly see the advantages and disadvantages for both Sonic and Pit in the matchup.

None of your previous posts are any good at explaining why Sonic should be 60:40 > Pit (having the strongest Up Throw or Sonic's Fsmash = Mario's Fsmash don't mean much as far as anything are concerned and are just generic information.

Sonic's air speed>Pit's unless he's gliding. Fsmash, Dsmash, Bair kills.

Pit is going to Kill Sonic with each of these moves before Sonic kills Pit with them.

Spinshot>arrows

Stop acting like a Spinshot will allow you to never get hit by an arrow. Arrows can be shot and aimed downwards and as I've said I don't think Sonic has any answer to them if they are being used in a ledgecamp type style.

Pit's light making that so called 'killing problem' not an issue.

Sonic's probaly going to get most of his kills from gimping or bair so being "light" isn't going to help Sonic much.

 

[Chis]

im sure a lot of those moves will result in an arrow. i dont know what half those moves are....but it seems like your coming to me and thats all that matters. I can easily go in the air, back up, fire more, approach with an areal unexpectedly. If your always coming to me than im always a step ahead...if that makes sense...i guess u could say the ebst offense is a good defense...but thats stretching it a little bit.

That point nullified the rest of the post.

I read your previous posts and I still say that they are generic, and people saying they haven't played a good Sonic has nothing to do with my response. I am not one of those people and as I said in my first post, I have played both versus Sonic and as Sonic and I for the most part can clearly see the advantages and disadvantages for both Sonic and Pit in the matchup.

None of your previous posts are any good at explaining why Sonic should be 60:40 > Pit (having the strongest Up Throw or Sonic's Fsmash = Mario's Fsmash don't mean much as far as anything are concerned and are just generic information.

Stop wasting my time and read the posts already (sigh)

Pit is going to Kill Sonic with each of these moves before Sonic kills Pit with them.

That made no sense at all.

Stop acting like a Spinshot will allow you to never get hit by an arrow. Arrows can be shot and aimed downwards and as I've said I don't think Sonic has any answer to them if they are being used in a ledgecamp type style.

How does aiming them down help? Do you know the speed and trajectory of it? Also Sonic's shield sliding distance?

Sonic's probaly going to get most of his kills from gimping or bair so being "light" isn't going to help Sonic much.

Helps never the less.

 

[kown]

That point nullified the rest of the post.

your right, my bad no one told me.....maybe you would care to explain.

and i guess your implying that these moves dont approach me as the rest of my post states... I wonder how you will ever hit me if your not approaching me than.