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Corner game
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Jonas
Smash Champion
Maybe he only saw the second half :V
Fortress | Sveet
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2nd half sucked
Wretched
Dankness of Heart
...because the only man any straight man can love died?
yeah, that made it suck.
yeah, that made it suck.
Zodiac
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 10, 2005
- Messages
- 3,557
Im to tired to do my usual over analyzation but this is where the majority of reads come into play, your opponent reads you, you read your opponents read of you, your opponent reads your of them of you. And usually its where the decisions are made the quickest and where most players will falter after the first read is made.
just bait someting.
actionable frames off a side step, with fox can be surprisingly early if you time/space it well enough and if they try to react (not all that difficult to expect though) to it it can easily be punished unless they dash dance outside your grab, but maybe inside your f/d tilt/smash. (edit: i decided to stop here)
so many options exist. its nice to talk about though.
I hope people stop talking about death note and start talking about the topic.
actionable frames off a side step, with fox can be surprisingly early if you time/space it well enough and if they try to react (not all that difficult to expect though) to it it can easily be punished unless they dash dance outside your grab, but maybe inside your f/d tilt/smash. (edit: i decided to stop here)
so many options exist. its nice to talk about though.
I hope people stop talking about death note and start talking about the topic.
Masmasher@
Smash Lord
just sit there, do nothing
forward
Smash Champion
Yea, standing in the corner and not moving is really good. I find it works especially well against averagely good players, the players that really want to use their high-level mind games. These people go for crazy fake-outs with their impressive movement, but if you just wait then they immediately give away their moment of attack because it looks so radically different than the fake outs they were trying to pull.
Actually, this gives me a good idea...
Find what your character's best options are for actually hitting someone when they cornered.
Find movement patterns which give signs that you are going to use those attacks.
Don't use the attack.
Get baited son.
I think I see a lot of players try to bait with movement that does not express the will to attack someone in the corner, so when they actually decide to move in it is very obvious.
Actually, this gives me a good idea...
Find what your character's best options are for actually hitting someone when they cornered.
Find movement patterns which give signs that you are going to use those attacks.
Don't use the attack.
Get baited son.
I think I see a lot of players try to bait with movement that does not express the will to attack someone in the corner, so when they actually decide to move in it is very obvious.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
That's really funny; I haven't played enough people to really say something like that...
Do people really just bait with movement without really being aware of what that movement suggests to the opponent??? That's... I don't even know... I guess people just blindly use movements they've seen others use or something.
forward
Smash Champion
Well, I've been playing this game for so long that it is probably due to my experience that I can read what people threatening me with.
But, if I can read what they are threatening with, I can most likely read what they are trying to bait. I think there is a distinct connection here between threat and bait and it's the awareness of what threats work for which bait.
Example for person baiting:
Falco shooting lasers threatens ground control, with potential to shuffle a nair or dair and chance of shield stab, and also a grab. This threat baits people to full jump away from the ground. Falco can punish the full jump with a full jump dair, nair, or bair. Punish I think is another important part of this system, and that baiting the opponent actually is a 3 part system. Threat, bait, punish.
I was thinking of bait for fishing as I was writing this. Fish bait is not used for a threat, it's for food, it's to bring them in. I think you can do the same thing in smash, you can bring them by appearing weak, exposed, defenseless. So another form of the bait system is expose, bait, punish.
Another example:
Marth dashes at the cornered opponent, he threatens a grab, which has the potential to kill a stock through ledge guarding. This baits people to roll, dodge, or even jump. Marth punishes with a Dash dance grab, which delays the grab in time to hit the person in the vulnerable frames from leaving a roll or dodge. If the person jumps marth can also jump to attack with high range attacks, which can lead to death.
In either of these examples it is quite common for a novice player to say "there's nothing I can do!" They feel that every option is covered, and in a sense they are right, but why does it only happen to them and not to good players? What do good players see that others don't? How are they able to predict whether the person is baiting or genuinely wants to attack?
There is no simple answer, and any answer cannot be put simply. It's something good players just feel and do on instinct, not think about in english words. I'll try though. When I have more time I try break down a few instances of how I "know" what my opponent is doing.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
I definitely understand where you're coming from, makes sense :D What I was thinking about was more...
I suppose, why mediocre players will make moves that don't match up with what they're trying to do. What their movements suggest they are trying to do often doesn't matchup with what they have in mind, as I feel they understand what they are doing less. But does it just come down to people trying to copy what they see, rather than understand what they're doing, or is the mental level of a mediocre player simply not to the point where they realize the connection?
I suppose, why mediocre players will make moves that don't match up with what they're trying to do. What their movements suggest they are trying to do often doesn't matchup with what they have in mind, as I feel they understand what they are doing less. But does it just come down to people trying to copy what they see, rather than understand what they're doing, or is the mental level of a mediocre player simply not to the point where they realize the connection?
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
yes . lol
JesiahTEG
Smash Master
Good posts by everyone, and I'm glad you use that too Drugged Fox haha.
So, I was just playing for a few hours, and a new obstacle presented itself to me, which is good because that's what improving is all about, finding what you need to do to get better and doing it.
So first lemme start by saying that I've just started training my Marth in a "campaign" to breakthrough to another level with him. I've been analyzing different areas of my play a lot, and the one thing that I can confidently say Marth has that might be the best in the game is his corner game. I know we can all agree on this obviously, but to the extent in which it ***** can be discussed farther. (lol that sounded funny)
So first off if you combine 3 of his options, grab, dtilt and dash dance, you come up with a 2 layer wall capable of covering many options. you can dtilt into dash dance which covers everything they would try to get past you.
Now as we've discussed, most good players won't immediately try to rush past you. They will either hold their ground or jump/double jump to keep their space. You could keep mixing up those 3 options and remain extremely safe and make it hard for them to get out. But once you force them to play this corner game that we're talking about, and not just trying to get past you, you're going to want to add other options in, those options being: Fair, Uair and side b.
The situation goes like this. You dtilt let's say, Fox's shield and then you go into a dash dance. He jumps forwards with a full hop and Marth retreats with a dash dance. A smart Fox will then double jump backwards and land, which has opened up the space between Marth and Fox significantly, giving Fox more room to breathe.
This is also nearly impossible to purely react to. This is an option that cannot be covered along with others, so you're going to need to read it/predict it. Wait lemme back up. You can't punish out of reaction, but you can keep the advantage in your favor by wd/dd'ing to where the fox landed and spacing a side b (first hit) perfectly, because as he lands he's going to have to do something. Shield, dodge, roll, jump, attack, and by spacing a side B, that will stuff jump, and attack if they try to so you can continue with the side b, if they shield you return to the first position, and now you have information to **** them with. if they dodge or roll, side b is so lagless you can react to both afterwards.
Now say you side b them when they land after closing in on them, and now you have the information that. Now you can wait for the jump and then start zoning in the air with fairs. fox jumps towards you, you jump backwards with fair. Marth wins in the air vs Fox when he has time to space, and in this situation he does.
Fair'ing to begin with in this situation is not that beneficial, since Marth is kinda floaty and as he's in the air either fair'ing or about to fair, his opponent can roll away or something. So, yes you CAN use this as a base corner game strategy, but I would say save it. Save zoning with fairs once you have the information that they are a smart player who will jump back and forth. Then the game changes and now you have evidence that will support your decisions.
I think of it as starting off with no information about your opponent. So, you cover as many options as possible. Then as you begin to narrow down the options, you can switch strategies to cover the options you know they will do. This is what creates that feeling of someone being in your head, when people start saying "No matter what I do, you always beat it."
If you think about it, really you just know what they're NOT going to do, so you can focus on efficiently ****** what they CAN do.
Now, if you want to increase the amount of prediction you use, which comes with more risk, then you can bait the double jump and run forwards as fast as you can or do a really long, quick wd forwards and try to catch him BEFORE he lands with a uair or even Fsmash. The advantage to this is that they will have no jump so it's pretty much an instant kill. The downside is, this is VERY prediction based, so this only covers that option, giving you no time to react to anything else.
If you think about it, you're playing the game ahead of where it is, because you have to rely on the fact that the Fox isn't going to land with a nair or drill during their first jump. So instead of DD'ing away and punishing that, if you KNOW they're not going to do it, you DD away for a second, then start dashing very fast behind the Fox, right around the same time he would have landed from a full hop with an attack. This gives you time to get under his double jump and also doesn't give him any reaction time to counter.
Now, let's bring this back full swing. In order to bring Marth back up to the top of the metagame, (He's actually making a move now with IB and if Taj starts playing Marth again) Marth can't just rely on his option covering skills. Yes he's amazing at that, especially in the corner.
But the problem is by covering all options, you have to use quick moves like dtilt, side b, grab. Those don't lead into high rewards at all, so if Marth has someone in the corner at 0, he can spend a good minute, minute and a half building them up to like 100% just by covering their options. But by doing it this way, you're relying on yourself to not mess up one situation at all, and also you're relying on your opponent to not do something risky in order to get out, which good players do. (Like just straight up run past you)
Fox can get away with this because he has guaranteed combos so if he gets a grab off at killing percent, it's a wrap, not to mention if he forces a roll behind him let's say, he can just Usmash for the kill.
With Marth though, he has to take risks with high reward. That's when he becomes an unstoppable machine, when all of his advantages are utilized through the prediction/reading abilities of a great player.
In the above example of cornering someone to 100%. Let's say you cover their options 8 times in a row, leading up to 100% in damage. If I can predict on say maybe the 3rd or 4th time what they're going to and that leads into a death...That's so much more effective it's not even funny. This is what a lot of Marth's need to work on IMO and it's what I'm working on too.
Also, i hope this makes sense lol it's a lot and I wrote it quick
So, I was just playing for a few hours, and a new obstacle presented itself to me, which is good because that's what improving is all about, finding what you need to do to get better and doing it.
So first lemme start by saying that I've just started training my Marth in a "campaign" to breakthrough to another level with him. I've been analyzing different areas of my play a lot, and the one thing that I can confidently say Marth has that might be the best in the game is his corner game. I know we can all agree on this obviously, but to the extent in which it ***** can be discussed farther. (lol that sounded funny)
So first off if you combine 3 of his options, grab, dtilt and dash dance, you come up with a 2 layer wall capable of covering many options. you can dtilt into dash dance which covers everything they would try to get past you.
Now as we've discussed, most good players won't immediately try to rush past you. They will either hold their ground or jump/double jump to keep their space. You could keep mixing up those 3 options and remain extremely safe and make it hard for them to get out. But once you force them to play this corner game that we're talking about, and not just trying to get past you, you're going to want to add other options in, those options being: Fair, Uair and side b.
The situation goes like this. You dtilt let's say, Fox's shield and then you go into a dash dance. He jumps forwards with a full hop and Marth retreats with a dash dance. A smart Fox will then double jump backwards and land, which has opened up the space between Marth and Fox significantly, giving Fox more room to breathe.
This is also nearly impossible to purely react to. This is an option that cannot be covered along with others, so you're going to need to read it/predict it. Wait lemme back up. You can't punish out of reaction, but you can keep the advantage in your favor by wd/dd'ing to where the fox landed and spacing a side b (first hit) perfectly, because as he lands he's going to have to do something. Shield, dodge, roll, jump, attack, and by spacing a side B, that will stuff jump, and attack if they try to so you can continue with the side b, if they shield you return to the first position, and now you have information to **** them with. if they dodge or roll, side b is so lagless you can react to both afterwards.
Now say you side b them when they land after closing in on them, and now you have the information that. Now you can wait for the jump and then start zoning in the air with fairs. fox jumps towards you, you jump backwards with fair. Marth wins in the air vs Fox when he has time to space, and in this situation he does.
Fair'ing to begin with in this situation is not that beneficial, since Marth is kinda floaty and as he's in the air either fair'ing or about to fair, his opponent can roll away or something. So, yes you CAN use this as a base corner game strategy, but I would say save it. Save zoning with fairs once you have the information that they are a smart player who will jump back and forth. Then the game changes and now you have evidence that will support your decisions.
I think of it as starting off with no information about your opponent. So, you cover as many options as possible. Then as you begin to narrow down the options, you can switch strategies to cover the options you know they will do. This is what creates that feeling of someone being in your head, when people start saying "No matter what I do, you always beat it."
If you think about it, really you just know what they're NOT going to do, so you can focus on efficiently ****** what they CAN do.
Now, if you want to increase the amount of prediction you use, which comes with more risk, then you can bait the double jump and run forwards as fast as you can or do a really long, quick wd forwards and try to catch him BEFORE he lands with a uair or even Fsmash. The advantage to this is that they will have no jump so it's pretty much an instant kill. The downside is, this is VERY prediction based, so this only covers that option, giving you no time to react to anything else.
If you think about it, you're playing the game ahead of where it is, because you have to rely on the fact that the Fox isn't going to land with a nair or drill during their first jump. So instead of DD'ing away and punishing that, if you KNOW they're not going to do it, you DD away for a second, then start dashing very fast behind the Fox, right around the same time he would have landed from a full hop with an attack. This gives you time to get under his double jump and also doesn't give him any reaction time to counter.
Now, let's bring this back full swing. In order to bring Marth back up to the top of the metagame, (He's actually making a move now with IB and if Taj starts playing Marth again) Marth can't just rely on his option covering skills. Yes he's amazing at that, especially in the corner.
But the problem is by covering all options, you have to use quick moves like dtilt, side b, grab. Those don't lead into high rewards at all, so if Marth has someone in the corner at 0, he can spend a good minute, minute and a half building them up to like 100% just by covering their options. But by doing it this way, you're relying on yourself to not mess up one situation at all, and also you're relying on your opponent to not do something risky in order to get out, which good players do. (Like just straight up run past you)
Fox can get away with this because he has guaranteed combos so if he gets a grab off at killing percent, it's a wrap, not to mention if he forces a roll behind him let's say, he can just Usmash for the kill.
With Marth though, he has to take risks with high reward. That's when he becomes an unstoppable machine, when all of his advantages are utilized through the prediction/reading abilities of a great player.
In the above example of cornering someone to 100%. Let's say you cover their options 8 times in a row, leading up to 100% in damage. If I can predict on say maybe the 3rd or 4th time what they're going to and that leads into a death...That's so much more effective it's not even funny. This is what a lot of Marth's need to work on IMO and it's what I'm working on too.
Also, i hope this makes sense lol it's a lot and I wrote it quick
Fortress | Sveet
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when someone expects a roll, its really funny to just fsmash them.
forward
Smash Champion
I think it's both, but copying is good. Copying is how everyone learns and gets good. It's how people are at a higher level of play after 4 months of playing than the pros were 2 years into the game. I think that if they think about it for awhile and experiment with what they copy they will eventually understand how things work.
I think it's also more of a mediocre player mentality to get caught up in what you are doing as opposed to thinking of what the opponent is thinking. They tend to lose focus on strategy.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Mkay then, I don't think copying is wrong by any means (god knows I've done it) but that all makes sense. It's just important, I suppose, for people to focus on eventually understanding why/how things work.
Also, @Jesiah
Once again great post, and a very good point. Not just in corners, but in general, marths need to know when to make a move to get a kill, rather than just covering options over and over and over. That's a lot of the reason why people always cite marth as having trouble killing, because you get them to like 150 and realize you can't do anything. Man, I gotta play you some time =P
Also, @Jesiah
Once again great post, and a very good point. Not just in corners, but in general, marths need to know when to make a move to get a kill, rather than just covering options over and over and over. That's a lot of the reason why people always cite marth as having trouble killing, because you get them to like 150 and realize you can't do anything. Man, I gotta play you some time =P
JesiahTEG
Smash Master
Haha, yeah I wanna play you too. i'm surprised you read that all LOL but thanks man 
normally I just post what I'm thinking and it turns out to be an insane amount so it's cool that you read it all hahaa
normally I just post what I'm thinking and it turns out to be an insane amount so it's cool that you read it all hahaaDruggedfox
Smash Champion
I do the exact same thing when I post, and end up writing insane amounts... so I know how it is and figure it's worth readingHaha, yeah I wanna play you too. i'm surprised you read that all LOL but thanks man
It always is, so it's all goodOh... Forward, how active are you in smash now??? I know you play in AZ and all still, but that's about all I know.
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
he's been incredibly busy and inactive for the past... month or two, but he's seeming to get back into the groove of posting and wanting to play.I do the exact same thing when I post, and end up writing insane amounts... so I know how it is and figure it's worth reading
Oh... Forward, how active are you in smash now??? I know you play in AZ and all still, but that's about all I know.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
guys
back
air
back
air
Nø Ca$h
Smash Champion
this is why jiggs is good. bair covers like.... every option if the opponent is cornered.
harriettheguy
Smash Lord
Falcon's will crouch cancel falcon kyick 70% of the time
Nobody has mentioned platforms yet. Fastfallers are so vertically efficient on them.
Fox and falco on yoshis/battlefield can just jump from ledge to platform. IMBA
Jiggs foot covers the whole platform, no matter how creative your movement. OP
Also, Falco's laser is so good in both situations. It is the best aerial in the game after his dair
With Fox, I've started experimenting on Rockcrock with just running up and 0-deathing when I'm cornered.
Looks like neither cornerer nor corneree would want to commit unless they're baller.
From here it would break down into specific match-ups and scenarios.
Nobody has mentioned platforms yet. Fastfallers are so vertically efficient on them.
Fox and falco on yoshis/battlefield can just jump from ledge to platform. IMBA
Jiggs foot covers the whole platform, no matter how creative your movement. OP
Also, Falco's laser is so good in both situations. It is the best aerial in the game after his dair
With Fox, I've started experimenting on Rockcrock with just running up and 0-deathing when I'm cornered.
Looks like neither cornerer nor corneree would want to commit unless they're baller.
From here it would break down into specific match-ups and scenarios.
AceDudeyeah
Smash Ace
I like Marth. I don't feel any pressure at all when cornered. Just shffl nairs and dtilts all day.
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
Fortress | Sveet
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No need to be insulting guys. Marth is pretty good in a corner, tho. Hes also really good at putting people in corners and reversing corner traps.
forward
Smash Champion
Marth is very dangerous at the corner simply because if he reverses it it's so hard to get out.
Marth is dirty on stage, that's common. How about when you're on the edge vs a peach???
on stage she has jabs/cc float @ varied heights (can be a great avenue to safety) and dash attack. if you're not careful, that dash attack is faaast XD and if you're too close to the edge i the first place blocking it can push you onto the edge.
I think, if that happens, it's everyone's (you know what i mean) immediate instinct to try and edge up a down air but this is one o the riskiest maneuvers and will often be punished for a stock, since you just used your double jump.
.
on stage she has jabs/cc float @ varied heights (can be a great avenue to safety) and dash attack. if you're not careful, that dash attack is faaast XD and if you're too close to the edge i the first place blocking it can push you onto the edge.
I think, if that happens, it's everyone's (you know what i mean) immediate instinct to try and edge up a down air but this is one o the riskiest maneuvers and will often be punished for a stock, since you just used your double jump.
.
AceDudeyeah
Smash Ace
Haha, whaat?
Maybe I could see how hard it is for Marth to get out of the corner. But if your patient, I can't see anyone getting into you besides a jiggs or falco. MAYBE a falcon and another marth.
But definitely sheiks and foxes will get shut out if they try to attack a cornered Marth.
Marth just has so much range you kinda have to back off a little bit lest you are the one put into the corner.
forward
Smash Champion
I think Fox has a hard time approaching Marth in the corner. Actually, it's not difficult but just very risky. On the other hand, Marth has a hard time getting out of the corner because Fox controls so much of the stage.