Competitive players won't dominate???

[Hitzel]

Whenever I see arguments like this, I notice that people tend to throw around phrases like "a pro will always beat a noob."

That's pretty much a given. I don't think that competitive-minded players are worried about noobs suddenly wiping the floor with the best players around. That wouldn't happen no matter what Sakurai did to SSB. There's more concern of what happens when two players of nearly equal skill play each other to win.

I understand that Sakurai is adding things like toadstool hopping and gliding to Brawl, but are they versatile enough to add significantly to the game's depth? In a competitive game, the options that players have have a HUGE impact on how much depth the game has. Without enough options, there's more chance of fights having forced outcomes, and less chance of players being able to rise above themselves to reverse bad situations out of raw skill and quick decision making. If there aren't enough options to think through and things are too predictable, the results of matches between players of near equal skill can become inconsistent.

I mean this for all games, not just Brawl. Simply put, I strongly feel that the depth of matches between equally skilled players is what makes or breaks a game's competitiveness. It's the determining factor of weather or not I'll be playing Brawl a year from now, I know that much.

 

[BananaX]

I think it's a pretty dumb statement to say that players with more skill will be at the same level as "less talented" players. No matter what, skill will be a factor -- after all, what's the point of the competitive aspect of the game, anyway? It seems ridiculous.

 

[Jazriel]

I think it's a pretty dumb statement to say that players with more skill will be at the same level as "less talented" players. No matter what, skill will be a factor -- after all, what's the point of the competitive aspect of the game, anyway? It seems ridiculous.

But in a game that lacks depth, it is extremely possible and in-fact common for the skill curve to be very short. What this means is that in a shallow game, a person who has played for 6 months can do the same as a person who's been playing for 60 months. Which is bad, very bad.

 

[Artc]

Mindgames can't be removed. End of thread.

 

[OddCrow]

I think they mean that's been the premise of all the games. Which was probably meant to be played with items and the like. But competitively speaking Competitive players WILL dominate, because they don't allow for things which add randomness to the match (I.E. Items, Stage Hazards, Handicaps etc)

 

[veil222]

Can people please stop saying "We" and "You" as if the group of people being referred to actually fit into the broad group of people their referring to and agree/fit into the way their being described? "We pro players are so nice to noobs n u gaize r sooooo indignant" (I know, someone with that bad of spelling wouldn't use the word indignant, but indulge me). On the reverse, not all pro players live for the sole purpose to ruin the game for casual players by owning them as hard as possible every game. These people exist, but stop lumping everyone together, that's just going to perpetuate this childish animosity among two groups of gamers that are only defined in forums like this. /pseudo off topic rant off

I'm going to play brawl at the least with smash balls on. If I can't beat someone even when they get a pity FS then the difference in skill level between was too small to make the outcome definite anyway. Anyone that blames a loss on a pity FS is just making an excuse. Now if exploding crates/capsules come with it, I'll re-consider, but even then, the idea of final smashes adds such a cinematic element to the game, I'd be willing to take a few of them in the face by a noob to have the chance to shoot them off back.

I'm really glad they're actually balancing the game this time, it gets really old resorting to a handful of top tier characters to beat someone if they main a top tier. I'd like to be able to use mewtwo or bowser against marth or fox without having to practice like it's a job to have a chance. Anyone who isn't in favor of balance just wants their favorite character to be able to trash the others again. There's a reverse of this too, it would be a mistake to overcompensate and have all characters be the same. A good example would be if everyone was middle tier in reference to melee broken tiers, everyone would be contained in upper-mid, mid-mid, and low-mid. What would be overcompensation is everyone being mid-mid tier.

 

[mario-man]

I may be slightly wrong, but I believe I also speak for competitive smashers when I say this: I myself am partially upset at the developers for the sole reason of slowing the game down. I'd have to say that it's VERY fun when you are a lightning fast(at least as fast as your character can be) and smart player. It's just so much more fun to alot of us, because it becomes more demanding of your brain which in turn makes your brain sharper. To me, and I'm sure alot of other players, this is mainly why we like to even compete in such ways as we do. Because it is fun to stretch your brain to it's limits. The even better thing is, the more you stretch it, the more it can be stretched. Sure, slowing the game down will cause the skill pool to be greater, but the fun of being able to do smart things at high speeds will be for the most part gone. Honestly, how many people who even care to be good, if they practice and have experience, is not ABLE to be a very good player? I mean, if you want it bad enough, then nothing will hold you down.

This was all pretty much moot points cuz Brawl is slower and less technical(at least finger speed wise) and there's nothing we can do to change it either way.

Note that I am NOT slamming casual players. I'm just expressing what I feel, but still realizing that I will have to change in order to succeed at Brawl. And THAT is in some ways what is so great about competitive games. When a sequel comes out, the competitive gamers will be saddened that certain things are not in the new installation, but their joy and excitement of discovering entirely new tactics and techniques will outweigh their sadness.

 

[Fletch]

You assume that the wavedash is used to dictate skill upon the tournament community, and you claim that you are a good player even though you have no recognition. I doubt my many extremes that you are good by our standards, but probaly a casual standard. I'll just say this, the Wavedash doesn't dictate player skill, but is an essantial technique.



Like I said, no one is dictating that notion, it's just that the Wavedash is an essential technique that can be used optionally in tournament play. At this level of play, the technique isn't necessarily advanced either. All it really requires is muscle memory.
Many a people have came here just to make blatant assumptions about the tournament community, whether it be how we play or the techniques we use, but what your saying is just a summary of the typical misinformed noob argument. And i'm sure I can speak on behalf of the competitive smash community when I say i'm sick of the bull ****.

The wavedash isn't necessarily a broken technique or a glitch for the matter. It's just canceling out your air dodge animation when you touch the ground. Since the momentum is still present, you slide across the ground. But simply implementing this technique in your gameplay without knowledge can actually further hinder your game play; thinking that you will miraculously win by some follious imitation of a professional player. You can wavedash across the screen all you want, but it still isn't going to earn you a KO.

So with respect, may you please share your hypothesis on why the Wavedash is cheap and unfair?



Your argument is completely flawed.

Video games have many exploits that can be used to their advantage, because no competitive game doesn't have exploits. And since you want to put Guilty Gear in to perspective, what about Jump Install? Yeah, that's not in the manual, but it's one of the most fundamental techniques in the game. If the technique was so bad it would hae been removed in the latest Guilty Gear Installments, such as XX Slash and Accent Core.

Some game exploits in games can be potentialy harmful, but minor occurences such as the wavedash are nothing more than creative exploits created by small legitimate techniques. Sure, the demographic for smashs bros appeals to a general audience, but the game was designed to be played in a wide plethora of ways besides the "Party" style.

What suprises me the most is that new players don't posses the ability to acknowledge another players co-existance, nor respect them. Yet we have cooperated with your terms of playing.

No one is here to judge you or to accuse you of playing in a way that disrespects the community, we just want to play smash, whether it be a competitive game or a party game.

So for everyone's sake, stop talking. We don't care about what you think is fair or what isn't fair. I'm really sick of all of you noobs with your inferiority/superiority complexes.

Every person arguing about the WD being a glitch/exploit really needs to read this point. EPF put it out there perfectly.

If I could, I would time travel, find your pregnant mom, and push her down a flight of stairs.

This too... honestly I hate writing in Brawl discussion at all, because posts like these are just ignored and buried beneath millions of posts by all the new members.

 

[aaron123]

It's always interesting to read through threads like these because you've got people on opposite sides of the spectrum, each of which believe their side and not the other's is completely justified in how they play. Some will even go to personal attacks, which honestly baffles me, since we should all respect how each other plays. It is just a game, after all, and some of you quite obviously need to up your dose of relaxant pills.

Anyway, it's no doubt that, as said before, the more skilled player who puts more time in will most likely beat the one with less. It's just the principle of the thing: the more time you put in, the more astute you'll be. This applies to anything really, like playing another game, or perhaps an instrument or drawing.

I can see how each side believes they're justified. With skilled players, you've got the time put in should reap appropriate rewards (and rightly so). However, I can also see the "noob" mentality: that the pro scene is too based on AT's, Final Destination and no items and such. My own opinion is that disabling items or other stages would reduce the fun drastically (personally for me anyway), but I do understand why they are not used in a competitive scene, due to the randomness of both. AT's, I believe, are just a matter of putting in the time to get muscle memory accustomed to it. However, I personally hope something as similarly complex as WD'ing won't be in Brawl. I never learned it in Melee; it just seemed like way too much of a hassle for me to donate time to learning it, hence why I'm "good" but certainly not fit to go to a SSBM tourney.

Hopefully, the online scene will shorten the gap for competitive people and "noobs," so that we can both equally enjoy the game. With the play with anyone feature on WFC, the "noob" has at least a chance of getting one knockout through features such as the pity smash ball. And, if all else fails, each crowd could stick to "their own" through friend codes and online tourneys.

 

[Pink Reaper]

However, I personally hope something as similarly complex as WD'ing won't be in Brawl. I never learned it in Melee; it just seemed like way too much of a hassle for me to donate time to learning it, hence why I'm "good" but certainly not fit to go to a SSBM tourney.

I love how many people say this. The fact that YOU couldn't learn it is not a reason to take something out of a game. I cant SHDL, doesn't mean I think its cheap(I actually think its sort of awesome to see but thats just me) And you say WD'ing is complex? Its two buttons and a direction, its not that hard. I have a friend who JUST STARTED playing melee two weeks ago, and he was able to WD after about 5 minutes of practice. The fact of the matter is, the Wavedash is not a difficult technique to learn, its just more difficult to implement into the game, but the same can be said about anything basic in Smash. Anyone can Fsmash as Marth, but it takes skill to set up for an Fsmash that WONT miss and that WILL get a tipper. Its not hard to wavedash, its just a little difficult to know when and when not to use it.

 

[aaron123]

I love how many people say this. The fact that YOU couldn't learn it is not a reason to take something out of a game. I cant SHDL, doesn't mean I think its cheap(I actually think its sort of awesome to see but thats just me) And you say WD'ing is complex? Its two buttons and a direction, its not that hard. I have a friend who JUST STARTED playing melee two weeks ago, and he was able to WD after about 5 minutes of practice. The fact of the matter is, the Wavedash is not a difficult technique to learn, its just more difficult to implement into the game, but the same can be said about anything basic in Smash. Anyone can Fsmash as Marth, but it takes skill to set up for an Fsmash that WONT miss and that WILL get a tipper. Its not hard to wavedash, its just a little difficult to know when and when not to use it.

You misunderstand. I'm not saying I *couldn't* learn. I'm saying I chose not to learn WD'ing. Anyone can learn it, of course. I just chose not to because I don't have an interest in the pro tourney scene. That'll probably change when SSBB comes out.

I'm not saying WD'ing is cheap, but I will say it is complex. I would call myself very dextruous at video games, and even I have trouble getting the rhythm of the shoulder buttons and jumps down (on Fox anyway, it's fairly easy with say, Luigi). I was stating that I, personally (hence why I'd said personally), would be a little uneasy if I would have to learn something akin to WD'ing in the new Brawl *necessary* to stand a chance online. Yeah, I know that's not a reason to take something like that out, I'm just sayin' on my own behalf.

Ironically, all this talk *about* WD makes me curious to try practicing it now.

 

[omiz144]

There is no doubt that more experienced players will win, but the online scene...which will be enormous, won't always configure to what "pros" are used to. (Items, stage gimmicks, smash-balls)

Overall, no matter what your niche is, you'll be able to play into it with Brawl.

 

[Ban Heim]

Why do people keep making these threads? I understand you were just trying to show us Sakurai's quote, but still...

Competitive players will dominate. Why? They're competitive. They strive to be better. If they get beaten, they'll practice until they can win. That's what makes them competitive and the effort they put into the game makes them better. I don't care what advanced techniques are taken out because a competitive player will still beat a casual any day of the week. Mind****ing is a skill that can't be removed.

There is no doubt that more experienced players will win, but the online scene...which will be enormous, won't always configure to what "pros" are used to. (Items, stage gimmicks, smash-balls)

Overall, no matter what your niche is, you'll be able to play into it with Brawl.

Pros will still win. They're better overall. Just because they don't use items doesn't mean they suck with them. They're still better at dodging, fighting, and keeping their opponent away from items.

The only way they could lose is if they get very unlucky and have a bunch of exploding crates and capsules drop down on them over and over mid-fight.

 

[PyrasTerran]

If someone doesn't have the mental capacity or determination to push three buttons at almost simultaneous times it's probably a given that they don't have the requisites to reach a tournament level.

...It has nothing to do with mental capacity or determination. Some people simply don't have the DEXTERITY to, as you put it, "push three buttons at almost simultaneous times"(the fact that they are NOT simultaneous is what makes it difficult for many people). Just like playing the piano, it's something that some fingers can grow accustomed to and some cannot. It's as simple as that. You might as well be saying that a dwarf can't dunk because he's not smart or determined enough.

What defines skill? Apparently for you technical ability is irrelevant so I assume it all comes from mental prowess. In that case it seems that one player is able to operate on a fluent technical level WHILE predicting and adapting to his opponent at the same level that his technically inferior counterpart is. It seems pretty obvious to me who should win.

In the scenario I put, both players are equally skilled. That means that even if the "handicapped" player knows how best to handle the player using the "advanced techniques", he is still at a disadvantage because he cannot move his character faster than his opponent, despite they are using the same character.

It is not so obvious, when one of the fighters is given a speed advantage as such.

Who's to say?

Sakurai and Iwata? They seemed to certainly imply it in their interview.

In the end the advanced strategies are concocted by the players, and Brawl could result in technical skill being even more necessary than it was in Melee.

So far, though, the evidence is pointing the other way.

No one can decide that now, but I would advise noobs against taking the mindset that Brawl will open the competitive doors for them.

And I would advise you against taking the mindset of labeling new fighters as 'noobs' in such a manner.. You seem to be against the notion of allowing new fighters more leeway into entering the competitive world.

 

[SwiftBass]

If I could, I would time travel, find your pregnant mom, and push her down a flight of stairs.

2nd'd

sliq u made my knight

 

[Pink Reaper]

...It has nothing to do with mental capacity or determination. Some people simply don't have the DEXTERITY to, as you put it, "push three buttons at almost simultaneous times"(the fact that they are NOT simultaneous is what makes it difficult for many people). Just like playing the piano, it's something that some fingers can grow accustomed to and some cannot. It's as simple as that. You might as well be saying that a dwarf can't dunk because he's not smart or determined enough.

Ok, here's the thing though. Your playing a video game. One that asks you to use your fingers. A lot. So I have to assume that you DO in fact have the finger dexterity to press three buttons at nearly the same time. If you DONT, then you have other things to worry about, like basic controls >_> And the dwarf thing doesn't really work here. A dwarf cant dunk because its fundamentally impossible. Newbies cant wavedash because they refuse to put the time into learning it because if they do, then they cant bash on people for being "cheap".

 

[froz3ntear]

brawl is a different game but one thing will remain true.

the winners will still be winners and the losers will still be losers.

 

[PyrasTerran]

Ok, here's the thing though. Your playing a video game. One that asks you to use your fingers. A lot. So I have to assume that you DO in fact have the finger dexterity to press three buttons at nearly the same time. If you DONT, then you have other things to worry about, like basic controls >_> And the dwarf thing doesn't really work here. A dwarf cant dunk because its fundamentally impossible. Newbies cant wavedash because they refuse to put the time into learning it because if they do, then they cant bash on people for being "cheap".

I'm sorry, but it's not as simple as that.

I am assuming that you know how to wave-dash. In that case, of course it is seemingly, obviously and common-sense easy to pull off the technique, but it is not as fundamentally easy as you are putting it. moving around the arena, using comboes and air-dodging, all can be achieved by practically everyone, but if moves like wave-dashing are so easy and simple to pull off as you seem to be implying there wouldn't be such a grand gap that separates competitive players from everyone else. It's no different from the guy that can play a musical instrument fluently but can't juggle or pat his head/rub his belly simultaneously. Some people simply can't wrap their heads around such a rapid succession of button presses which is, ultimately and undeniably, just using the game's systems for purposes not originally intended.

You cannot tell me that every single person who can't pull off these advanced techniques, their only reason being that they're 'not trying hard enough'.

You aren't saying that newbies can't wavedash, you are saying that they won't, and it's that kind of attitude that only continues to fuel the flames of hostility between new fighters and competitive fighters.

brawl is a different game but one thing will remain true.

the winners will still be winners and the losers will still be losers.

Thank you for removing the animosity from your original post. That is what we need more of, regardless of how Brawl turns out for both new fighters and competitive fighters.

 

[Pink Reaper]

but if moves like wave-dashing are so easy and simple to pull off as you seem to be implying there wouldn't be such a grand gap that separates competitive players from everyone else.

See now, this is a common misconception. Wavedashing doesn't create a grand gap between competitive smashers and non competitive smashers. Its(and I cant believe Im saying this)MINDGAMES that separate them. Its the ability to read their opponent and use any random situation to their advantage. Its also their complete and total understanding of their character. A Marth player KNOWS how long that Uthrow will work before he can combo into a tipper, a DK player KNOWS when to Uair out of Cargo and when to Fair for the kill. And these kind of things don't take extream finger dexterity to do.

You cannot tell me that every single person who can't pull off these advanced techniques, their only reason being that they're 'not trying hard enough'.

Sure I can. I was raised to believe that if you WANT something, all you have to do is work for it. I often point to the fact that I cant SHDL with Fox. The only reason for this is because I don't take out the time to learn, I dont put in the hard work for it. Why? Cus I dont play as Fox. Anyone who doesn't learn AT's simply because they dont want to, or don't want to play competitively doesn't have to, there's no reason for it. But for those that WANT to learn, they simply have to practice, nothing more.

You aren't saying that newbies can't wavedash, you are saying that they won't, and it's that kind of attitude that only continues to fuel the flames of hostility between new fighters and competitive fighters.

No, Im saying that n00b's won't wavedash. Newbies probably just dont know what it is yet or if they want to learn it or not.

_________________________________________

One thing I would like to point out is that the animosity between competitive and non-competitive players doesn't usually come from the competitive side. If you've been on the Brawl forums for a while you must have seen alot of "Competitive players are destroying the soul of the game" threads and "Yay, theres nothing cheap in Brawl"(which isnt true, theres just none of the things scrubs called cheap in Melee in Brawl, Im sure there will be things scrubs call cheap in Brawl) and you have to understand that competitive players simply have chosen their way of playing and thats the way they enjoy it. No one is forcing you to do anything you don't want to, so you cant force us to stop playing the way we do.

Now there are also the players who say things like "well, I cant enter the competitive scene because I can't learn these cheap glitches". Well, thats a lie. You CAN enter the competitive scene, you probably just wont do very well. Hell, even if you CAN do all the AT's, it doesn't really mean your gonna be able to compete. I can do everything(except SHDL >.<) but its not like I can play with the likes of Ken or KDJ or M2K. Hell, I probably cant even play with the likes of MikeHAZE or Choknater. I don't complain about it though, I just keep practicing and keep trying to get better.

 

[Tabris-]

At the end of the day, competitive players will be playing the game more and trying to get more out of the game. New techniques will be found eventually and they'll become what wavedashing and l-cancelling are now.

It may make things a bit more even when you're against good casuals (at least for now), but isn't having more of a challenge better If the game is easier for them, it's probably going to be easier for you too.

 

[Kips]

Beware my dreaded tl;dr.

The gap between competitive players and newbies and noobs will always be there. Always. Say what you will, give newbs and noobs whatever advantages you can but there will always be a divide, an endless void that can only be filled by experience, that will lurk in the horizon.

Why?

Because the competitive player practices. The CP (Competitive Player) watches his opponents moves carefully. CP knows the games ins and outs, CP knows just how far he can push the characters limits and just how far his opponents limits go. CP doesn't fall for common tricks and CP deals out these common tricks like cheap dope. The scrub will fall for these tricks, this common chicanery. And why? Because the scrub does not have the experience to see the dagger behind the cloak until it punctures his organs. The scrub does not read his opponent, he rushes blindly and only knows himself. That leads to his downfall.

But that's not a good enough reason you say!

Well then, CP has the technical skill to go along with his endless amounts of experience. No, they do not mean he ultimately wins. Technical skill isn't the engine per se but the upgrades to the engine that let the car drive to its max. CP still is better WITHOUT his technical skill. Yet with that skill added CPs attacks come faster, CP dodges attacks quicker, CP approaches and retreats more easily and CP finds little tricks and nuances that allow CP to outmanuever the opponent further.

So you see, competitive players will and always will dominate. They will have superior reflexes, speed, technical skill, mindgames and overall ability. That is why they will dominate.

 

[SwiftBass]

I'm really glad they're actually balancing the game this time, it gets really old resorting to a handful of top tier characters to beat someone if they main a top tier. I'd like to be able to use mewtwo or bowser against marth or fox without having to practice like it's a job to have a chance. Anyone who isn't in favor of balance just wants their favorite character to be able to trash the others again. There's a reverse of this too, it would be a mistake to overcompensate and have all characters be the same. A good example would be if everyone was middle tier in reference to melee broken tiers, everyone would be contained in upper-mid, mid-mid, and low-mid. What would be overcompensation is everyone being mid-mid tier.

go play naruto or something. Tiers happen they do in every competitive game. stop dreaming of a game with perfect balance, there is no such thing

 

[Kips]

There has only been one game with perfect balance in the history of gaming.

Starcraft.

Outside of that, there has ALWAYS been an imbalance. It is up to us to rise our low tiers out of the mud and gain the ability to play them like a machine or to play high tiers. Playing a high tier isn't easy either, at least Fox and Falco aren't. Even pro Foxes and Falcos make mistakes. Putting everyone in a middle position is pointless- We might as well play a game with one character and one stage.

 

[Keitaro]

players with more experience will always win.

Yes, so unless you are consistently getting ***** by M2K's and such in tournies you will most likely be beaten by someone who has.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Good players will dominate over sucky players.

This is the principle of all games, especially fighters.

No matter how Sakurai tries, he won't be able to refute that while still preserving Smash.

 

[xelad1]

Beware my dreaded tl;dr.

The gap between competitive players and newbies and noobs will always be there. Always. Say what you will, give newbs and noobs whatever advantages you can but there will always be a divide, an endless void that can only be filled by experience, that will lurk in the horizon.

Why?

Because the competitive player practices. The CP (Competitive Player) watches his opponents moves carefully. CP knows the games ins and outs, CP knows just how far he can push the characters limits and just how far his opponents limits go. CP doesn't fall for common tricks and CP deals out these common tricks like cheap dope. The scrub will fall for these tricks, this common chicanery. And why? Because the scrub does not have the experience to see the dagger behind the cloak until it punctures his organs. The scrub does not read his opponent, he rushes blindly and only knows himself. That leads to his downfall.

But that's not a good enough reason you say!

Well then, CP has the technical skill to go along with his endless amounts of experience. No, they do not mean he ultimately wins. Technical skill isn't the engine per se but the upgrades to the engine that let the car drive to its max. CP still is better WITHOUT his technical skill. Yet with that skill added CPs attacks come faster, CP dodges attacks quicker, CP approaches and retreats more easily and CP finds little tricks and nuances that allow CP to outmanuever the opponent further.

So you see, competitive players will and always will dominate. They will have superior reflexes, speed, technical skill, mindgames and overall ability. That is why they will dominate.

Well put. I really don't understand how the "technical ability" argument can still even exist. I really can't understand how people completely disregard the concept of a competitive mindset as being the number 1 attribute for being succesful in anything that is competition based and not fundamentally random.

As to the person who was claiming somehow that some people aren't capable of doing advanced techs.... well then you must be referring to a small minority of a disabled populace. Seriously at my school we have a group of people who play smash, and out of that group probably 80% of the people who joined knew nothing about advanced techniques when they started yet they can all wavedash, l cancell etc now. How can it be that at least 20 different people all found the ability to do something you claim is so restricted by finger dexterity. Seriously I have never heard anything more rediculous in my life.

You make it sound as though all people who can wavedash learned on their first try.. far from it. Ask mostly anyone with good technical skill and they'll tell you it took practice and hard work on their part. Some people may have learned and applied it faster than others but at the end of the day it really boils down to hard work. Those "musicians" you speak about are no different. The top professional musicians practice at a minimum 3 hours a day, the most dedicated practice 8. They aren't just "naturals", they work their ***** off like its their job. Mew2King is notorious for being one of the most technical players out there with highly in depth game knowledge because he also plays A LOT. He'll be the first to admit that all of his skill came from hard work and dedication. I'm not going to bother arguing this point any further but I really can't understand how people still think that these physical endeavours hinge on "natural talent"...

 

[CQue tHe Sunn]

Can people please stop saying "We" and "You" as if the group of people being referred to actually fit into the broad group of people their referring to and agree/fit into the way their being described? "We pro players are so nice to noobs n u gaize r sooooo indignant" (I know, someone with that bad of spelling wouldn't use the word indignant, but indulge me). On the reverse, not all pro players live for the sole purpose to ruin the game for casual players by owning them as hard as possible every game. These people exist, but stop lumping everyone together, that's just going to perpetuate this childish animosity among two groups of gamers that are only defined in forums like this. /pseudo off topic rant off

They don't do it intentionally, it just happens. They **** noobs and the noobs misinterpret their defeat as just another milestone the pro has passed just to prove that they're better than the vast majority of players. This isn't the case, you just think it is.

Of course, the possibility still remains that there is some truly evil-hearted ******* out there, but I've never met him (I've met a lot of great players too).

I'm really glad they're actually balancing the game this time, it gets really old resorting to a handful of top tier characters to beat someone if they main a top tier. I'd like to be able to use mewtwo or bowser against marth or fox without having to practice like it's a job to have a chance. Anyone who isn't in favor of balance just wants their favorite character to be able to trash the others again. There's a reverse of this too, it would be a mistake to overcompensate and have all characters be the same. A good example would be if everyone was middle tier in reference to melee broken tiers, everyone would be contained in upper-mid, mid-mid, and low-mid. What would be overcompensation is everyone being mid-mid tier.

You do realize that Melee was intended to be balanced right? With the exception of Pichu of course. Not only that, so was Smash 64. So really, there's more proof for ya: There will be a tier list, there will always be a tier list. They'll screw up the balancing of the characters again, as they did each time before, and in every other video game. There's no getting around it. Clearly Ike is not as good as half the cast, there's nothing stating otherwise.

As for my opinion: competitive players will definitely dominate. Basic concepts still apply to Brawl as they did in Melee (MINDGAMES, that's what it's all about). The competitive players know how this works, and the noobs don't which is part of the reason they're noobs.

People think they're gonna get a huge jump start and hit the top because its a new game, this isn't the case. There really isn't much at all to argue here though, as its difficult to understand through words. You would have to sort of become a competitive player, or at least play like one to understand these concepts.

Plus, more in the defense of my point: even if the characters are balanced (which they won't be, they'll mess it up again like they always do), what's important is how you use the character. Just playing Sheik against Bowser won't win you the match. I've seen Bowsers beat Sheiks and I've done it. My little 11 year old brother could certainly not beat Gimpy's Bowser and there's no way around it (at least concerning his current skill level). Basically, I'm saying that having the better character in the matchup doesn't guarantee your victory.

Well put. I really don't understand how the "technical ability" argument can still even exist. I really can't understand how people completely disregard the concept of a competitive mindset as being the number 1 attribute for being succesful in anything that is competition based and not fundamentally random.

As to the person who was claiming somehow that some people aren't capable of doing advanced techs.... well then you must be referring to a small minority of a disabled populace. Seriously at my school we have a group of people who play smash, and out of that group probably 80% of the people who joined knew nothing about advanced techniques when they started yet they can all wavedash, l cancell etc now. How can it be that at least 20 different people all found the ability to do something you claim is so restricted by finger dexterity. Seriously I have never heard anything more rediculous in my life.

You make it sound as though all people who can wavedash learned on their first try.. far from it. Ask mostly anyone with good technical skill and they'll tell you it took practice and hard work on their part. Some people may have learned and applied it faster than others but at the end of the day it really boils down to hard work. Those "musicians" you speak about are no different. The top professional musicians practice at a minimum 3 hours a day, the most dedicated practice 8. They aren't just "naturals", they work their ***** off like its their job. Mew2King is notorious for being one of the most technical players out there with highly in depth game knowledge because he also plays A LOT. He'll be the first to admit that all of his skill came from hard work and dedication. I'm not going to bother arguing this point any further but I really can't understand how people still think that these physical endeavours hinge on "natural talent"...

Very well said. I can personally relate to the second paragraph as well, I was a nub at one point. As were all of us.

Seriously I have never heard anything more rediculous in my life.

I second that.

 

[Nasanieru]

Another basketball analogy:

Melee: Kobe Bryant (advanced player) vs 3 year old (n00b).
->Kobe wins.
Brawl: Kobe Bryant (advanced player) vs 3 year old (n00b) on modified court.
->Kobe wins.


Also @ all the people hating on advanced players:

- We are not born with the ability to do all of the techniques we can, we all started as a newbie.
- We have practiced for A LONG TIME to get as good as we are.
- A n00b is one who chooses to be one, go practice and stop complaining.

 

[Sliq]

Competitive players may not dominate, because they might not play the suck fest that is Brawl.

Hey, let's remove ALL the cool aspects of Melee. What a great idea, Sakurai, you dumb ***got.

 

[CQue tHe Sunn]

Competitive players may not dominate, because they might not play the suck fest that is Brawl.

Hey, let's remove ALL the cool aspects of Melee. What a great idea, Sakurai, you dumb ***got.

I may be doing just that actually. I can easily see that happening.
-----------------------------
Brawl seems to be a huge dissapointment. And it has nothing to do with the roster. The roster isn't really that important, in fact I'll be so bold as to say that it's almost exactly as I predicted: No Ridley, Geno, Mewtwo, Doc, Y Link, Pichu, or any of those ridiculous characters people want in like Isaac and Bomberman. They don't matter much anyways whether they're in or not. I did say from the beginning that there was no way Ridley would be a PC didn't I? I'm not biased against the guy, but it just seemed too irrational to have him in.

It's the mechanics of the gameplay that got thrown in, and the ones that were done away with that has seemingly ruined Super Smash Brothers. Well, I hope the casual players are happy, since the competitive scene may be quite dull and slow.

The game will be "Okay" by my standards.

 

[Angrylobster]

I don't think we should condemn the game yet. Give it a few weeks/months after its been out to see if the game becomes stale, or to see if there really is a higher level of play that can be attained.

 

[Zig-Zag!]

Speaking as a ROB main, I feel I will dominate every match.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Obviously pros will allways be better, but this just goes to show that Sakurai tried his very hardest to make Brawl a non competitive game, which is scary.

Scenario 1: Sakurai wants a non competitive game, and succeeds->He's a bad game designer for wanting a non-competitive game

Scenario 2: He wants a non competitive game, but fails because we find trickies that he didn't intend-> He's a bad game designer for failing his vision.

Either way, he failed at brawl.

 

[~^.NoiR.^~]

Just think of it as Halo 3(if you know the H3 competitive world). A lot of competitive glitches are taken out, but the same top Halo 2 players will also be the top Halo 3 players. Of course the skill gap isn't as big because of the lack of advance techniques. Not saying there won't be in the future or there aren't any in Brawl right now, but ya. Still need mind games and the ability to predict your opponents next moves, etc.

 

[KosukeKGA]

http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-1/

Nubs.

 

[~^.NoiR.^~]

That article is so true.

 

[peachori]

brawl was not designed to be a competitive fighting game
but you better believe we're going to make it one.

 

[stelzig]

Better players will win, Sakurai and Iwata may not even be aware of the incredible level of skill some players have. No doubt.

Casual players will always be able to get a KO against a competetive player, even in Melee, especially if 10 matches are played, but the competetive players who play seriously will always be able to win, there is no perfect evening of new and veteran players in Smash Bros, unlike Mario Kart.

*randomly jumps in*

While items are mandatory in mariokart vs (although you can still play with costum rules not allowing them pretty easily) then miniturbos are still more powerful and will let the better player win more often. This goes for all mariokarts. Even SMK has NBT (new boost technique)

Go to mariokart64.com to see more about competetive mariokart if you don't trust this (it is based on time trials mostly because that is where competetions is best because of before said items. The MKDS wi-fi has had it's share of vs competetions too though.

As for this game being more for casuals? Well nintendo has said that for many games lately... And i think they have always been trying to be like that, but really. Nintendo will somehow mess up/the competetive players will discover, exploit and find better uses of things than originally expected in the game so i don't think people should worry THAT much

 

[Yuna]

You can never make a game where competitive players won't dominate it. Competitive gamers practice meticulously to become good at the game, to know everything about it. Of course they will dominate the n00bs.

In fact, why would you even want to make a game less competitive? Those who do not wish to be competitive can stay "n00bs/newbies/average players". If they're not competitive or wish to become good, then they can stick with their friends or other people who aren't "competitive". Why make the game less competitive because some n00bs are complaining that "pros" are destroying them or that they don't have the patience to learn to become a pro themselves?

The n00bs will still be there, getting destroyed by the pros and not having the patience to become pros themselves. Making the game less deep won't change that, it will just ruin the enjoyment for those of us who prefer deep games. It's not like the depth of Melee destroyed the enjoyment of the game for the people who didn't feel like becoming good at it.

 

[Takumaru]

Basically, we can only assume Brawl is going to touch up on this (obviously since techs such as wavedashing and l-canceling haven't been seen in the recent demo).


What do you other competitive players think about this? (well, the ones who actually go to Brawl Discussion lol)
How do you lower and more casual players feel?

Shame shame, NJ, you should know that technical skill is just a smokecreen used to make casual players feel bad and new players feel good.* In melee you can stand in your shield and just use a F-smash and still knock around casual players. It's not the technical side of the game that creates the gap, it's understanding the basics of a fighting game and extremely basic psychology that seperates "competitive" and "casual".

Ok so I oversimplified the whole technical side of the game a bit too much but my point is: yes the gap will be closed but not by a significant amount at all. When sakurai said "We can fight 10 times and I can at least take off one stock" that only means one stock.

*EDIT: To avoid some flames from people I might or might not respect, this is a mostly sarcastic remark/burn towards most of the idiots running around the brawl forums. It in no way reflects my actual feelings towards the techinical side of the game but I can only write one 10-page essay a day and my english class has taken priority over smash.