Competitive players won't dominate???

[Dragon_Hawk]

good players will still beat bad players

 

[SuperLink9]

Haha.

Do you know what happnes in games that are online when noobs face better players and lose?

They disconnect/whine/scream/yell.

This will be no different. Advanced techs or not. Casuals for the most part have different mindsets and just don't want to lose. So why should a game be dumbed down for people who have no hope of beating a competitve player in the first place and when they DO get pwned, they just run away BAWWWWWING?

This is why people will stick with Friend matches, they're bound to be much much better, and even for competetive players,k who will win match up anyway, Friend matches are better time 1,000,000.

 

[GreenKirby]

Ya know, the people in defense here are doing the same thing.

"Oh no he just means ______, thats nothing.. "

Anyone with at least half a brain can figure out that Smash Bros was always aimed at the more general audience. What's with items, crazy-*** stages, and whatnot.

 

[Serph]

Funnily enough, I play Mario Strikers online and more often than not the opposite is true. If on the odd occasion it looks as though I'm set to beat a high-ranking player, they are the ones who disconnect. Whereas most of the middling/average players (who you can actually have a good game with) see it through to the end.

 

[SolidSonic]

Anyone with at least half a brain can figure out that Smash Bros was always aimed at the more general audience. What's with items, crazy-*** stages, and whatnot.

Alright my bad. I suppose I do have only "half of a brain" for not mentioning "teh items". As if thats such a relevant part of the equation.

 

[Nasir]

I think like almost everyone else here, that the better players will still most of the matches win. So it's not a big deal. But what I don't like is the give away final smash, it's just too unfair.

 

[Pandanda]

I think like almost everyone else here, that the better players will still most of the matches win. So it's not a big deal. But what I don't like is the give away final smash, it's just too unfair.

For every...3-4 times they die, they get a free shot at you.

It might not sound fair, but I doubt 1 final smash will be enough to make a comeback after that many deaths.

Plus there'll hopefully be a toggle option for pity FSs.

 

[Kips]

Basically, we can only assume Brawl is going to touch up on this (obviously since techs such as wavedashing and l-canceling haven't been seen in the recent demo).


What do you other competitive players think about this? (well, the ones who actually go to Brawl Discussion lol)
How do you lower and more casual players feel?

I'm not overly competitive but I would say that I feel rather indifferent. There will still be a divide between the skilled and the scrubs simply due to reflex time, spacing and overall common sense.

 

[Bibbed]

A huge gap will form between competitive and casual players just like in SSBM. If one doesn't, then the game lacks depth, which means it probably isn't a well designed game. It was Melee's depth that kept people playing it for six years.

 

[Kips]

Agreed- Think about it. Even without techs, will Ken still beat a random scrub? Of course he will! Why? Simply because he has superior reflexes, mental skill and knowledge and a wider range of abilities.

 

[heytallman]

I, for one, am glad to see Brawl as less techy than Melee. I feel as though I now have a chance to compete with others. I'm not a noob or anything, but I'm fairly new to the competetive scene, and I never learned many advanced techniques. I feel as though I'm a decent player, I just get beat down by people who wavedash all over the place and do crazy techy stuff.

 

[RedrappeR]

It's smash, polishing the game doesn't mean they're removing the skill. They've added elements instead of subtracted them, and from what I've seen you can still have the "Lol flatstage battle no items"... the only difference here is that you're going to get less problems about tiers, because they're actually taking time out to balance it. Or at least try to.

And Sakurai didn't necessarily AGREE with Iwata full throttle, he kind of clarified. He said yeah, Iwata would probably be able to KO him more than once, but at the same time... things like the Smash Ball and the Dragoon helped newer players out. But honestly, if they were in Melee, do you think a good fox vs. a scrub fox has any less skill when scrambling for an item.

Well, you get what I mean. Hopefully.

Agreed- Think about it. Even without techs, will Ken still beat a random scrub? Of course he will! Why? Simply because he has superior reflexes, mental skill and knowledge and a wider range of abilities.

QFT. Ryu is strong(even in MvC2)[10 points for whoever gets the reference]

 

[Foe]

I, for one, am glad to see Brawl as less techy than Melee. I feel as though I now have a chance to compete with others. I'm not a noob or anything, but I'm fairly new to the competetive scene, and I never learned many advanced techniques. I feel as though I'm a decent player, I just get beat down by people who wavedash all over the place and do crazy techy stuff.

You do not lose because they wavedash. Look at Aniki vs Ken. He can do it.

I think that Brawl is going to be a duff. It'll be great but not like Melee, more like Mario Party. Hopefully I am wrong...

 

[SuperLink9]

He could also mean that there are no characters that are "bad" for begginners, maybe the balancing has been done really well, so there are no broken characters like Sheik, and no disappointingly underpowered characters like Pikachu and Kirby.

 

[heytallman]

You do not lose because they wavedash. Look at Aniki vs Ken. He can do it.

I never said that I lose because other people wavedash, I just said that I usually lose to people who wavedash and have a lot of general technical skill. I'm just not really accustomed to playing against it yet (once again, I'm new to the competetive scene).

I'm just saying I guess is that people like myself would have more of a chance to compete with the higher-ups.

 

[Foe]

I'm just saying I guess is that people like myself would have more of a chance to compete with the higher-ups.

Maybe for a bit, but there will be something that will separate pros and joes. Whether that is just plain skill or a new technique I am not sure.

 

[Crossjeremiah]

It's commons sense that people will find new exploits that will create (advanced techs). I mean there hasn't been a game out there that was flawless. w/o exploits.

 

[Pandanda]

I, for one, am glad to see Brawl as less techy than Melee. I feel as though I now have a chance to compete with others. I'm not a noob or anything, but I'm fairly new to the competetive scene, and I never learned many advanced techniques. I feel as though I'm a decent player, I just get beat down by people who wavedash all over the place and do crazy techy stuff.

I have no doubt there'll be advanced techs in Brawl. Not Wavedashing, since it's been 99% deconfirmed, but certainly some other techniques that will reqired advanced technical knowledge and skill to pull off.

 

[Flaminglink]

OMG -_-

Smash is always about the better player winning, Competitve players will win way more than non's because smash is all about being the better player during the match.

non competative players will only win if they get lucky with an item or if the competative player isn't thinking right during the match and doesnt play how they usually do.

 

[blayde_axel]

"Competitive players won't dominate???"

Seriously like THE dumbest thing I've ever heard.

Unless you mean the majority of smashers will be casual, then you're right.

If you mean casuals will be better than competitive...

What you be smokin, mon?

 

[legendofme]

Thank you Flaminglink. No matter what Sakurai or the developers do. The people who do more will win more it's life.

Let me define this. He is not taking anything away that we truly really need. it's a new game...a brand new game..not melee....at all. If you miss the advance techniques don't play Brawl. Simple. Someone said Aniki. I think. I bet Aniki won't have a problem playing it in the least.

 

[Lipucd]

For every...3-4 times they die, they get a free shot at you.

It might not sound fair, but I doubt 1 final smash will be enough to make a comeback after that many deaths.

Plus there'll hopefully be a toggle option for pity FSs.

...In a row...

Afaik Pity Smash only works if they get killed so many times IN A ROW.

I bet on four stock matches it wouldn't make a bit of difference...Hell if the pro's good enough I bet he could knock it out of the newbie and use it! XD

But I do like this approach...Most people who first play and get 4 stocked/owned don't try to get better, instead they just "give up" and never play the game again. At least this way new players feel like they have SOME kind of chance to win and allows for them to ease into more better tactics.

...Because we all know most new players use Link's Up-B because it KO's all to well, yet as they get better they use it only when needed to.

 

[cynar]

If you're good you'll win. Simple as that.

 

[mario-man]

Of course the better player will win. Almost EVERY time (depending on the stage, settings, etc...). BUT, you guys are overlooking one thing if you say that Sakurai is leaning to making the game less tech oriented. That is this: in case you haven't noticed, this game is now playable online via wi-fi. In case you also didn't notice, wi-fi/any internet game connection have not yet reached the point in technology(and may never reach) where there is no lag because of the distances between players. the most likely reason for removing these techs is to avoid more lag time than is necessary. Imagine somebody in California playing against someone from Florida or even London or some other country, and having to input massively quick button combinations to do certain moves. It would cause the game to lag like crap and would be worthless to do. Sakurai even stated in the Iwata asks article that he designed the game from the start to be an online game, and obviously you don't want it to lag, so he took out the "advanced" techs OR he made them require less buttons input to cut the lag. Sure, there is a possibility that he also wanted to cater to the walk-up players, but even then, this would simply put more focus on tactics and "mindgames" and the better players would STILL win, because that's what REALLY makes them the better players, not the "advanced" techs, though they may help out alot. Pros are pros mainly because of the mental side of the game, and only partially for the tech side. Pros will still win once they have learned their character and have control of him/her. Don't all you people come on here saying that now you can beat the pros. You only can if you learn your character and play smart.

 

[2007]

Basically, we can only assume Brawl is going to touch up on this (obviously since techs such as wavedashing and l-canceling haven't been seen in the recent demo).


What do you other competitive players think about this? (well, the ones who actually go to Brawl Discussion lol)
How do you lower and more casual players feel?

no matter how hard the game developers try to balance the game, skill willalways dominate.
Take Mario Kart for instance.
If you suck, (ie: get in 8th, 7th, etc.) you'll get really good items, like lightnings, Peruvian Death Shells (those blue shellS) and Stars. when you rock (1st, 2nd) you'll get crap like the stupiud fake item box or a single green shell.
Oh, and all the characters aer virtually equal there from my Mario Kart experiences.
despite this "balance" skill predomnated/predominates. Smash will be no different.
=2007=

 

[Blatherskite]

Wow, he designed the game to be an online one from the start? He failed miserably then lol.

And who cares about winning? That isn't the problem. The problem is that the game has been dumbed down so much that there is no longer any room for skill progression. Basically, after a few weeks, you're going to know all you need to know in order to play well, and from then on, the only things that will matter are spacing and mind games. That's just boring. Melee without ATs was just spacing and mind games, and it just stank after awhile.

This game won't last a month unless there is a way to progress beyond the basic gameplay. Sure, you'll be able to beat noobs if you're competitive, but who cares if you're competitive at an overly simplistic game that most people can do well in without any sort of practice?

 

[Sonic-Fan]

I'd say that its an improvement since I am a player who is fairly good but I do not wavedash.

I believe wavedashing is not a legitimate skill and it is unfair to use it in the game. It was not meant to be included in the game but was exploited upon discovery with the excuse that if you wavedash your "pro".

Other fighting games such as some of the street fighter series or guilty gear include techniques like cancelling and air dashing or roman cancelling in their games OFFICIALLY. Smash is a fun game that is for everyone, and everyone should have an equal chance to win.

 

[mario-man]

Wow, he designed the game to be an online one from the start? He failed miserably then lol.

And who cares about winning? That isn't the problem. The problem is that the game has been dumbed down so much that there is no longer any room for skill progression. Basically, after a few weeks, you're going to know all you need to know in order to play well, and from then on, the only things that will matter are spacing and mind games. That's just boring. Melee without ATs was just spacing and mind games, and it just stank after awhile.

This game won't last a month unless there is a way to progress beyond the basic gameplay. Sure, you'll be able to beat noobs if you're competitive, but who cares if you're competitive at an overly simplistic game that most people can do well in without any sort of practice?

oh, don't worry about that. There will be other techs that are discovered, and once again, the competitive players will be hated without cause.

 

[Crystallion]

If you're good you'll win. Simple as that.

Agreed. Why can't we just leave it at that?

Like many other people already have said, the better player wins. And this doesn't really have to do with advanced techs. It has to do with how much time you've invested in the game, how many tricks you discovered, how many combos you've mastered and even how well you can avoid the randomness that is items and stages (if you play without them, well, ignore this point ^^). Even natural born talent can play a role...

But it all comes down to who the better player is.

 

[Tank McCannon]

I believe wavedashing is not a legitimate skill and it is unfair to use it in the game.

People still believe this?

Look, it's cool if you don't want to use it, I have no problem with that, but the fact that anyone can do it makes is perfectly fair.

As far as this topic goes, it doesn't matter if there are advanced techniques or not, people that put more time into the game (competitive players) will always beat casual players most of the time. If you think you're going to start winning because wavedashing is out, well, I feel bad for you.

Just watch, once Brawl is out, casuals (Not all casuals, I know there are cool casuals out there) will start complaining about mindgames seeing as there won't be much else to complain about. "WTF!? Play the way I expect you to!"

 

[error_alt_delete]

competitive players will be hated without cause.

I loled. competitive players arnt hated without cause, they are hated for actualy trying to find things like this and abuse them as much as possible. then look down apon casual players or players who dont use those "advanced techs". I hate stereo types such as these, I am a casual player but at the same time play competitively or "play to win" when I do. if casuals learned that the competitives are better for playing more, and the competitives learn to deal with things such as items or things that give casuals a boost like the pity smash(you do want a challenge right?). then we could all get along.

 

[Crispy4001]

As long as Smash Balls and certain items are turned on, the better player will lose matches often than they would be otherwise.

They'll be good for when players of contrasting skill are involved and still want a match that anyone can win. Or just for some randomness (as Sakurai and Iwata keep bringing up). But if it's not clear enough by now, to play a fair and balanced match we'll need to leave them off.

 

[Foe]

I loled. competitive players arnt hated without cause, they are hated for actualy trying to find things like this and abuse them as much as possible. then look down apon casual players or players who dont use those "advanced techs".

I hate stereo types

But your other part made sense.

 

[Fletch]

I don't think you're going to get many "competitive" players responding to this topic... only reason I even came in to Brawl Discussion is because I recognized your name on the last topic made. Not saying I'm the best but I really love the aspect of competitive play, and it is the only reason I still play Melee so much today. It's comments like these that seriously scare me about Brawl; making a smaller gap between skilled and casual players is one thing, but if it is going to ruin the longevity and depth of the game, these measures shouldn't be taken. However, it is going to be tough to predict whether this cap will truly be closed or potentially even made wider by Brawl, as it will take the competitive scene a while to adjust to a new game and take it to new levels.

However, I disagree with the direction they are trying to take the game so far, "dumbing" it down for the sake of newcomers could really kill this game's future. My two cents.

 

[Tank McCannon]

I loled. competitive players arnt hated without cause, they are hated for actualy trying to find things like this and abuse them as much as possible. then look down apon casual players or players who dont use those "advanced techs". I hate stereo types such as these, I am a casual player but at the same time play competitively or "play to win" when I do. if casuals learned that the competitives are better for playing more, and the competitives learn to deal with things such as items or things that give casuals a boost like the pity smash(you do want a challenge right?). then we could all get along.

I don't remember ever hating casuals for playing their way, so I don't see why we get hated for playing our way. If someone called you a "noob" for playing with items, ignore them because they were probably a ******* and didn't represent the competitive community very well.

Seriously dude, talk to any well respected member of the competitive community and you'll see that we're always willing to help anyone out if they want to learn and get better at the game, and if that's not your thing, we'll play you in an items match, we don't care, it's all good. But when it comes to tourneys, yeah, we'll stick with our competitive style.

In short, we don't look down upon you. As long as no one bashes our style of playing, we're cool with you, competitive or casual.

 

[Pokec]

However, I disagree with the direction they are trying to take the game so far, "dumbing" it down for the sake of newcomers could really kill this game's future. My two cents.

unfortunately, almost every game for the wii has been like this: TP, galaxy, paper mario, corruption, etc.

 

[ForteX]

I still think experience will show in matches, but I do think the removal of (some) advanced techniques is a good thing. Winning should be about knowing your opponent's weaknesses, striking at the right time with the right skill, unpredictable movement, etc. It shouldn't boil down to who spent longer practicing wavedashes and the like. Especially now we have an online mode.

In the end I think it'll be better for competitive players AND newcomers.

This post won the thread, and it's exactly how I feel. Yeah, I've spent a lot of time learning the wavedash and never finding the slightest use for it, but the game should come down to how well you know your character, how well you know your opponent's character, and how well you know how to beat that character. Strategy should outweigh silly glitchskills, always.

So what if they're trying to make it just a bit easier to play. When you think about what they've told us, they've not done anything except make the up tilt easier to do.

 

[SuperLink9]

Aniki is amazing at Smash Bros. Aniki is my idol Smash Bros player. AND he uses mid-tier characters. X3

People still believe this?

Look, it's cool if you don't want to use it, I have no problem with that, but the fact that anyone can do it makes is perfectly fair.

As far as this topic goes, it doesn't matter if there are advanced techniques or not, people that put more time into the game (competitive players) will always beat casual players most of the time. If you think you're going to start winning because wavedashing is out, well, I feel bad for you.

Utilising a glitch in Mario Kart DS (snaking) ruin's the games fun and makes it too competetive, and other players get annoyed about it. I can imagine wavedashing is a similar case. Anyone can snake, but people choose not to do it, because they feel it ruins their fun. It's why people make "no snaking" rules for online matches. Mario Kart is more of a party game, but I wouldn't be surprised if wavedashing was in Brawl and similar things happened.

 

[The Protagonist]

QFT. Ryu is strong(even in MvC2)[10 points for whoever gets the reference][/QUOTE]

Despite the fact that most seemed to believe that THAT game is dominated by Cable, Storm, Magneto and Sentinel . Ryu will ALWAYS be strong.

But anywho, I'm a competitive gamer and I've been in toruneys (as far as Tekken, Guilty Gear XX, and Naruto GNT). I play Melee a lot as well and don't believe that wavedashing is a NECESSITY for winning in Smash. The select few of my friends who play smash can do it and I don't. But its I know enough about the game to be able to compete with them.

I mean, Kiba in Naruto GNT 4 is "supposed" to be mid to bottom tier according to the masses and yet I've been able to win the tourneys at at cons and other local tournaments (specifically Otakon for my fellow baltimorians and Katsucon for my friends from DC).

What I'm basically trying to say is, if you understand the game well enough you won't always have to resort to "advance tactics" to win.

 

[The Adder]

I think the quote is more about the Plateau that really good players reach being a little more reachable for us normies.