Competitive players won't dominate???

[NJzFinest]

From Iwata Asks: volume 5...

We’ve touched upon it several times during our talk, but I truly believe that Smash Bros. was made with less talented gamers in mind, and the idea that stronger players shouldn’t dominate game play is prevalent throughout the game. If you and I were to square off for ten matches, for example, I could KO you at least once.

Basically, we can only assume Brawl is going to touch up on this (obviously since techs such as wavedashing and l-canceling haven't been seen in the recent demo).


What do you other competitive players think about this? (well, the ones who actually go to Brawl Discussion lol)
How do you lower and more casual players feel?

 

[Coselm]

I think it will still be competitive and better players will still win. All the new items and smash balls and the new handicaps mean that if you suck you can still stand a chance at taking a life or two from your opponent.

 

[Serph]

I still think experience will show in matches, but I do think the removal of (some) advanced techniques is a good thing. Winning should be about knowing your opponent's weaknesses, striking at the right time with the right skill, unpredictable movement, etc. It shouldn't boil down to who spent longer practicing wavedashes and the like. Especially now we have an online mode.

In the end I think it'll be better for competitive players AND newcomers.

 

[Suntan Luigi]

I thought Gimpy confirmed l-cancel. Anyways, theres a reason why competitive players dominate. They play smart. Not like most regular smashers.

 

[OATH]

players with more experience will always win.

 

[Dry Bones]

newer players are helped out with things like that charity final smash or whatever its called (if they suck, they re-enter the stage automatically in final smash mode), but overall i am positive there will be a definite gap between competitive and non competitive players in brawl, just like there was in melee

 

[LemonManX]

It is likely competitive players will still dominate. But it will come down to experience.

I mean, if two people played at least 10 matches I'd hope the worse player at least gets one KO....

 

[EatChildren]

I think, exactly like melee, pros will develop new skills and tricks over time.

It really annoys me how so many people just assumed this was Melee 2.0. That all the little tricks and quirks, that could have quite possibly been gameplay glitches, would all return.

Half the fun of pro playing is exploring characters and the game mechanics, discovering new moves and techniques that the game may or may not have intended.

If Brawl was just Melee 2.0 it would be a **** waste. Fox again dominating the leagues.

Keep in mind this quote probably relates to the use of items and the like. The inclusion of Smash Balls gives new players a better chance of doing well. In itemless 1-on-1 the better player will still come out on top.

 

[Mambo]

It just means with all the randomness of items and smash balls and stuff, if you have all those on, you might not win all the time. But that's just with all that on. Iwata has said many crazy things about making who wins more random, but thankfull it's Sakurai in charge of Brawl, not Iwata.

 

[SuperLink9]

Better players will win, Sakurai and Iwata may not even be aware of the incredible level of skill some players have. No doubt.

Casual players will always be able to get a KO against a competetive player, even in Melee, especially if 10 matches are played, but the competetive players who play seriously will always be able to win, there is no perfect evening of new and veteran players in Smash Bros, unlike Mario Kart.

 

[Serph]

I think what's important is that as long as there are little to no "advanced techs", newcomers will be beaten, but not feel as though they've been completely humiliated. I think that's what they're getting at.

 

[Chaosblade77]

The better player will still win, of course.

An analogy: It would be like a pro basketball player playing some random kid. However, they are playing on a 5 foot goal, so it's easier for the random kid to score. He'll still lose, but he is more likely to score a few points at least.

 

[Gerkuman]

Actually, it depends on the settings. Sure, the more experienced players can still beat you, but it's a whole different ball game with items (Which is probably why a lot of tourney smashers don't like them). Besides, dominating doesn't mean winning, it means how thoroughly you beat someone. I definitely think that the matches will be a lot closer in Brawl, and I can only see that as a good thing.

 

[DMAJohnson]

It`s not the big deal everyone tends to make it out to be. Sakurai and his team have included options that give players lagging behind in a match the chance to really turn things around. I like that--I usually play with people less talented than me and the fact they have a chance at snagging a win here and there keeps me on my toes, and keeps the game fun.

But here`s the thing: Brawl is a very customizable game. Not all these options will be used by everyone. And even if they are, as Sakurai pointed out, nine out of ten times, the "big brother" will still win.

Tournies, even if they use items, etc. will have a lot of stage, item, and game rule conditions--just like Melee! This isn't a issue, please don't blow the interview out of proportion.

 

[SirroMinus1]

noobisum cant be changed.
i think pros/semi pros got Upper hand still

 

[SuperLink9]

I think what's important is that as long as there are little to no "advanced techs", newcomers will be beaten, but not feel as though they've been completely humiliated. I think that's what they're getting at.

Yeah, this is a good point. Being utterly defeated by a technique you have absolutely no idea of would be pretty annoying for anyone, and everyone should be able to agree with that I'm sure.

Personally, I always have items on, they make matches more fun, and the better player still always wins, items or no.

 

[trevbang]

It almost seems that he might have been looking for the things that would make it less like a sport and more like a game. How would you all feel that if he realized "pros" used item switch to turn off items to make it more competetive? If he knew that it seems to me that he would eliminate item switch.

How would you respond if he eliminated item switch?

 

[Gerkuman]

Being beaten by experienced players as a newcomer usually does one of two things. If you know that your opponent beat you because of their experience and knowlege, you're going to want to get better If someone beat you using techniques you never knew existed, there's a good chance that you'll just get annoyed and give up.

It was the one thing that stopped me getting into the Smash Community about a year or two ago; I've never been comfortable with wavedashing and L canceling and things like that. The more people who get into smash, the more people will improve; and the more the Smash Community will grow. It's an upwards spiral

 

[SuperLink9]

It almost seems that he might have been looking for the things that would make it less like a sport and more like a game. How would you all feel that if he realized "pros" used item switch to turn off items to make it more competetive? If he knew that it seems to me that he would eliminate item switch.

How would you respond if he eliminated item switch?

He wouldn't eliminate the item switch. Personally I don't think they make a huge difference, possibly only with players of a very close skill level, but items on or off, better players will always win. Personally I can't think of ANY items that would cause a noob to beat me from using it, because it's so easy to disarm a player with a Hammer or Bat.

It was the one thing that stopped me getting into the Smash Community about a year or two ago; I've never been comfortable with wavedashing and L canceling and things like that. The more people who get into smash, the more people will improve; and the more the Smash Community will grow. It's an upwards spiral

Me too probably, while I have recently become very comfortable with L-Cancelling, people seem quite reliant on Wavedashing sometimes, and it makes me feel completely outclassed, because I'm not very good at it.

 

[Pokec]

i just hope this doesnt mean that brawl will be a disappointment as some of the other wii games have been in order to cater to inexperienced gamers.

 

[Puffin]

Yeah, this is a good point. Being utterly defeated by a technique you have absolutely no idea of would be pretty annoying for anyone, and everyone should be able to agree with that I'm sure.

Personally, I always have items on, they make matches more fun, and the better player still always wins, items or no.

Dumb the game down because a few over-sensitive casual players will have their feelings hurt when they lose? NO NO NO NO NO! This is ridiculous. Casuals will hardly ever run into competitive players, even online. There are so few of us; just leave our playstyle alone and we won't bother you.

On a side note, why do casuals always think of a destructive solution like this? Instead of taking the techniques out, teach everybody how to do them in the how-to-play videos. Now they are aware of them; they can choose whether to spend the time learning them.

Me too probably, while I have recently become very comfortable with L-Cancelling, people seem quite reliant on Wavedashing sometimes, and it makes me feel completely outclassed, because I'm not very good at it.

Somehow I don't buy it. If you are actually good enough to L-cancel well, you're knowledgeable enough to know that wavedashing isn't the reason you're losing. You make it sound like a win button. There's no way it can make you feel completely outclassed, as it is only used for spacing.

 

[Professor X]

I think the basketball analogy was a good start, but it needs to be expanded to cover whole basketball teams. Let's say you're a noob killer at Melee. So in basketball terms, you'd beat the team 80-20. Now in Brawl, maybe you can only beat the noobs 80-35. A win is still a win, right?

Has the game become more or less competitive? Hard to say.

As for the questions about the item switch, I really don't think they would consider removing it. And that shows how Iwata and Sakurai are posturing against the competitive community. They're just trying to sell the game with the interview; they want noobs to not be afraid to purchase it. But they know that they can't shun the hardcore community, the only group who would buy a new copy of the game if their disc broke. So that's why Sakurai made Final Smashes, the "most important addition," able to be turned off at a whim.

 

[Serph]

Well if I were the type of person to place a label on myself, I'd probably be a "casual", and personally I don't want to learn advanced techniques. I've wavedashed before, but only ever to see if I was capable of doing it. I'd never use it with any consistency because it just doesn't look like something which is supposed to be used. It basically makes running and walking obsolete. Surely that isn't right?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Who gives two ****s about what is right or what the game is meant for?

Many would say that the moment a creation is released to the public it belongs to everyone, not just the creator.

In this respect the game belongs to all of us and there is no "right" way to play.

Stop being so close minded and think outside the box.

FREE YOUR MIND!!!!!

 

[Pandanda]

I understand Sakurai's intention to make gameplay more fair and friendly to a beginner, but it's never going to bridge the gap to the point where a beginner will always have a chance against an experienced player. And really, that's the way it should be - the better player should win.

Still, I think it's a good idea for him to add these insentives to help beginners out. Smash is designed to be a pick-up-and-play game anyway. here's enough of a divide so that a newbie can understand the controls, while there is enough depth and advanced skills (both intended skills like air-grabbing and 'broken' skills like l-cancel and wavedashing) for an experienced player to perform well.

 

[Siegfried]

Dumb the game down because a few over-sensitive casual players will have their feelings hurt when they lose? NO NO NO NO NO! This is ridiculous. Casuals will hardly ever run into competitive players, even online. There are so few of us; just leave our playstyle alone and we won't bother you.

On a side note, why do casuals always think of a destructive solution like this? Instead of taking the techniques out, teach everybody how to do them in the how-to-play videos. Now they are aware of them; they can choose whether to spend the time learning them.



Somehow I don't buy it. If you are actually good enough to L-cancel well, you're knowledgeable enough to know that wavedashing isn't the reason you're losing. You make it sound like a win button. There's no way it can make you feel completely outclassed, as it is only used for spacing.

Iwata is just pointing out that the use of items and smash balls would add a random factor to Brawl (though one with a good deal of strategy involved for sure) and because of the handicap system, its possible to level the playing field enough so that anyone would have a chance against anyone if they want to. He's not saying that Brawl is a complete button-masher in which a player's experience and tactics would have no effect at all. In a strictly regulated game, with no items and a stable stage, the better player will nearly always win.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with adding more options that can even the playing field. I have two brothers that I occasionally play Melee with (who are a lot worse than me), but since we play with items on there is always a significant risk of losing when I play, and my siblings have a chance at winning. What the devil would be the point of a game that is absolutely determined by fast fingerwork (something that the developers seem to be working against)? I can hardly imagine a game which is determined by how many hours somebody spends playing the same game over and over being the least bit fun. If there is no chance of losing (or winning) theres no competition and thus no game.

 

[Mambo]

Being beaten by experienced players as a newcomer usually does one of two things. If you know that your opponent beat you because of their experience and knowlege, you're going to want to get better If someone beat you using techniques you never knew existed, there's a good chance that you'll just get annoyed and give up.

It was the one thing that stopped me getting into the Smash Community about a year or two ago; I've never been comfortable with wavedashing and L canceling and things like that. The more people who get into smash, the more people will improve; and the more the Smash Community will grow. It's an upwards spiral

This is true. I play Melee with my fiancee and I try and take it easy so she can learn to play and have a fun time. I hope too cultivate a good smash player to play Brawl with, but she gets fustrated easily, it's tough.
Also, Melee is one of the fighting games I've been been able to do the advanced techs on. I love fighting games, but never bothered to remember super long combos like is Streefigher games and such.

 

[Maikeru17]

Whether you choose to go solo or play with friends, you’re covered, because Brawl is about playing the way you want to play.

I'd be hole-heartedly upset if l-canceling was indeed removed (mainly because it always felt awesome to get a perfect shffl'ed combo off, IMO), but I feel that Brawl will not bridge the gap Melee created.
Remember, l-canceling was a necessity, there wasn't a time when you shouldn't've used it - which means it's exactly the same if it's not in the game.
We'll find things to exploit that are legit and not broken enough to be the advanced techniques of Brawl.


Surely Sakurai knows that ignoring the competitive scene would be a very large mistake, he's not a blind developer. Perhaps he has something in store for us.


-Nox

 

[thesage]

Competives will still own casuals. The major thing I'm worried about is how a competitive vs. a competitive match will come out...


Edit: plz nobody say that crawling, swimming, and wall clinging will add to the competitive scene. >.> I fail to see how any of those could add anything (but they're still cool features).

 

[SolidSonic]

To be blunt, I think its incredibly lame/foolish to cater to noob gamers like that. I guess it makes sense from the collectivist Japanese mentality though, where they don 't find it fun to compete in a game.

I agree with you what you guys have been saying, pros will still beat noobs, but yeah they seem to have butchered / messed with whatever skill factor was involved in the past games.

Still, I think it's a good idea for him to add these insentives to help beginners out. Smash is designed to be a pick-up-and-play game anyway. here's enough of a divide so that a newbie can understand the controls, while there is enough depth and advanced skills (both intended skills like air-grabbing and 'broken' skills like l-cancel and wavedashing) for an experienced player to perform well.

So how were the past games not "pick up and play" already?

What kind of 'tards are they trying to cater to. If someone does not put in a reasonable amount of effort and learn the controls, they deserve to be dominated.

I don't care if my non-gamer sister isn't able to do all that well in Smash... Shes a non-gamer, she doesn't even care... X_x

 

[Zoro]

Beginners should never beat pros thats only fair

the person that puts more time and effort in is the one that should win

Just like any other game

Have any of you ever gone to a tournament with items on?
Its rediculous you get these results that would never happen with items off.
Im looking at the screen and the person with obviously more skill is getting beaten on account of a random bomb or hammer. While its true the better person will still usually win turning items off makes the game just about skill and nothing else. Then luck has nothing to do with winning, which is why i hate games like mario party.

The only people that complain about advanced techniques are the people that cant do them or tried to and still got owned so they went home crying and decided never to try again. A person who doesnt use the techniques will never beat someone who uses them efficiently. Thats the bottom line. No im not talking about your friends that wavedash randomly just because they can.

There are so many times when people I know swear they can beat me without the advanced techniques. Its never happened once. Does that mean Im a pro? No I get beaten on a daily basis by people that actually know how to use the techniques effectively. I think its only fair since they put more time and effort into it.

I believe the gap between noobs and pros will be much shorter in brawl. Its kind of sad really but what can you do? Just adapt and pick up a broken character.

 

[Serph]

Who gives two ****s about what is right or what the game is meant for?

Many would say that the moment a creation is released to the public it belongs to everyone, not just the creator.

In this respect the game belongs to all of us and there is no "right" way to play.

Stop being so close minded and think outside the box.

FREE YOUR MIND!!!!!

Many would. I wouldn't.

This is why I don't snake in Mario Kart. In a racing games, straights are for driving straight on. Hence, the name. Mini-turbos are for use around corners. This is why Nintendo should make it so that they require a bigger turn of the wheel to perform in MKWii. So that anyone who thinks about snaking really DOES need to zig-zag wildly down the track. Thereby rendering the speed boost negligible.

I wouldn't object to any advanced techniques if they were actually documented in the manual or training modes. As they are you can only learn about them by accident or by studying some "advanced tech FAQ" online. Removing them levels the playing field, which is better for all of us. You want more competition online, right? Well allow the not-so-dedicated players to give you a good game once in a while.

 

[Hellbeing]

I thought Gimpy confirmed l-cancel. Anyways, theres a reason why competitive players dominate. They play smart. Not like most regular smashers.

lol... gimpy

 

[Jazriel]

You people need to realize. There's a big difference between losing a stock and losing a match. What he's said means that the game is so balanced, and has had so much thought put into it, that a casual person who knows the game but doesn't play seriously will be able to obtain at least one kill. People who know more, will still be the victor, it's just that now it will really make the differences in skill stand out.

 

[SuperLink9]

Somehow I don't buy it. If you are actually good enough to L-cancel well, you're knowledgeable enough to know that wavedashing isn't the reason you're losing. You make it sound like a win button. There's no way it can make you feel completely outclassed, as it is only used for spacing.

I like to think that wavedashing won't be the difference that decides if I win or lose, but seeing videos of people playing and putting it into regular play so well is a bit intimidating, while I usually do a good wavedashing session while training and practising to try and improve my reflexes, I find it hard to put into play, unlike L-Cancelling, which is fairly simple and only requires the timing.

I do use Wavedashing for spacing, but not very oftenly at all, and I can't even imagine being able to use it as my primary method of movement, even though Young Link's WDing isn't that bad.

Back on topic, the only way to fully even a noob and a pro would be an unopitional adaptive handicap, which would be the cheapest thing to do.

A pro can dodge a noob forever, so even if a noob uses an adaptive handicap to deal tons of damage and the pro can't deal ****, the pro can defeat the noob out of pure knockback

It's a silly thoery, but basically I think it's impossible to even them that much.

 

[Serph]

Beginners should never beat pros thats only fair
I believe the gap between noobs and pros will be much shorter in brawl. Its kind of sad really but what can you do? Just adapt and pick up a broken character.

You, sir, are a prime example of why I often regret discovering the internet and places like this. You just so up yourself and bothered about winning at all costs. It really sucks the fun out of a game like Smash.

 

[GreenKirby]

I hate it when people read too much into something. >_>

 

[Emblem Lord]

Haha.

Do you know what happnes in games that are online when noobs face better players and lose?

They disconnect/whine/scream/yell.

This will be no different. Advanced techs or not. Casuals for the most part have different mindsets and just don't want to lose. So why should a game be dumbed down for people who have no hope of beating a competitve player in the first place and when they DO get pwned, they just run away BAWWWWWING?

 

[NJzFinest]

Wow, in little over an hour, this thread already has some good discussion going on. I just read over everything so far and I'm thankful for the posts.

I thought Gimpy confirmed l-cancel. Anyways, theres a reason why competitive players dominate. They play smart. Not like most regular smashers.

That was in the America demo. However, in the more recent one released in Japan, none of the Japanese pros were able to find a way to L-cancel.

As for the questions about the item switch, I really don't think they would consider removing it. And that shows how Iwata and Sakurai are posturing against the competitive community. They're just trying to sell the game with the interview; they want noobs to not be afraid to purchase it. But they know that they can't shun the hardcore community, the only group who would buy a new copy of the game if their disc broke. So that's why Sakurai made Final Smashes, the "most important addition," able to be turned off at a whim.

Good point, I really never considered thinking about that.

 

[SolidSonic]

I hate it when people read too much into something. >_>

Ya know, the people in defense here are doing the same thing.

"Oh no he just means ______, thats nothing.. "

Haha.

Do you know what happnes in games that are online when noobs face better players and lose?

They disconnect/whine/scream/yell.

This will be no different. Advanced techs or not. Casuals for the most part have different mindsets and just don't want to lose. So why should a game be dumbed down for people who have no hope of beating a competitve player in the first place and when they DO get pwned, they just run away BAWWWWWING?

Why do some countries seek to provide free health care for every citizen? Joe schmoe who sits on the couch every day gulping whine and munching on ice cream, certainly deserves free treatment for when he has a heart attack. Its the right thing to do!" Make everyone suffer higher taxes, in order to save those who don't put any effort into maintaining good health. The government must baby us, in order to fix the crumbling health care service that exist, which is their fault to begin with.

/off topic rant