Competitive players won't dominate???

[Mekos]

what u guys didnt bash me...lol

thanks for the nice replies and stelzig i understand...and agree with u...

i'm just tired of all the complaining so i was trying to give people some positivity in here to combat all the negativity here...lol

but for trying to do something nice i got called a noob twice in a row by the same person, so he can feel good, and let everyone in here know that HE IS A GREAT COMPETITIVE MELEE SMASHER WHO GOES TO EVERY TOURNEY AND DESTROYS KEN, PC CHRIS, KOREAN DJ, MEW2KING AND MANY OTHERS...lol..okay im done...haha

 

[Angrylobster]

I'm sure that Brawl will close the gap a little between people of different skills. However, you still have to know your character(s)' strengths and weaknesses. I'm glad they got rid of all the other exploits that were in Melee. Everything you need to become a pro player should be laid out in front of you, and shouldn't be a hidden exploit. Seriously, how else would I figure out wavedashing or L canceling? I'd hope that Brawl will be a game that's easy to get into, but hard to master.

That post is so ironic I don't even know where to begin. Melee is the EPITOME of a game that is easy to get into, but hard to master.

 

[stelzig]

That random wi-fi is that way is not a big deal though because the wi-fi system has sucked on all nintendo games and random matches will most often not match you up against equal opponents so you don't go to random when seeking competition, you would get friendcodes and play friendly matches.

I hope you are right lexxil. Right now i am personally a little worried, but i agree that there is no reason to assume that this game is already sure to be an empty party game.
^But even if VS. goes wrong i can at least still be happy with the over 1000 of different high scores to go for. That side of competitive smash will surely be as good as in melee, just with more charts and co-op.

 

[Lawlb0t]

Melee was an accident. And it was a very good accident, a godly accident. Nintendo should use the Melee formula of skill > all.

 

[legendofme]

Complaints!? You should be ashamed of yourselves, S.boards

Dang, can we just play the game first? Experimenting is your best friend. Not theory.

Simple, correct? I think it has potential. It may be sorta step back, but the overall concept of Brawl So far is:

Pros+
New sweetspotting tactics. Fox Illusion off stage+grab ledge=happy
64 Style juggles return aka solid hit confirmation.
More Variety in Character specific techniques/attributes. Super Armor, etc.
Living Longer/Harder Difficulty in edgeguarding.
Balance. Which Sakurai said he was gonna do.
More fighters you can shake a stick at. Wolf ftw.
Decent yet mediocre online system. be thankful we got online.
More replayability aspects.
More emphasis on spacing, and strategy comes to play. Because now you can't just throw out attacks all whilly nilly.
More stages-More easter eggs-It's been only a day or 2 since Japan had it.
Hidden Potential in finding other advance techs besides SSBM's WD and L-cancel.

Cons -
No wavedashing.
No L-cancel.
A lil dumbed down.
Lazy FS on some of the characters.

Ok um that's all. Are you serious? The pros outweigh the cons so much. Okay so what if the wd and l-cancel is gone, if it really is? You got other stuff to find out in this game because we haven't found out everything yet. Gtfo. And when everyone use to be noobs. Yes everyone was a noob at one point of time. We didn't know anything about l-cancel or WD. And peeps still played the mess out of it competitve wise. Before we learned that items were BS we still played it. So please until we get confirmation. stfu and wait. I'm not flaming..just saying.

The better player will alwys win. It's in everything people do. Better guy in anything is gonna win. learn how to adapt. And before one of you cats try to say something smart. I've been to some melee tourneys before, and I would go to a lot more if the guy I roll with had transportation 24/7. I would expect complaints from other forums, but not with some of the threads from here. I'm out.

 

[Mekos]

That random wi-fi is that way is not a big deal though because the wi-fi system has sucked on all nintendo games and random matches will most often not match you up against equal opponents so you don't go to random when seeking competition, you would get friendcodes and play friendly matches.
QUOTE]

By the way if you want to play nintendo games online and have fun you have to build or be in a strong online community for that game...we call them clans. For example im a wii hunter for mario strikers charged...in this clan i play many of the best strikers out there and also play the other to strikers in i other clans...because if this im friends and am part of the top/competitve strikers commuinty.

so its kinda like who u know, but your correct random matches are usually not paired with someone of good skill(sometime tho)

I'm not sure if melee had clans, i think there are just crews(im not sure)...but with online clans are going to pop up...so find a good clan for u or even start one!... and eventually there will be clan wars...and as u get known u will eventually play with the best and be friends with the best...at least thats how it has worked with competitive wii and Ds games.

At least that is the route im going to take...and im also going to get all my friend codes in my Area in this forum...other wise it will be hard and random asking people on this forum unless yer friends with them...just my thoughts

 

[Mekos]

That random wi-fi is that way is not a big deal though because the wi-fi system has sucked on all nintendo games and random matches will most often not match you up against equal opponents so you don't go to random when seeking competition, you would get friendcodes and play friendly matches.
QUOTE]

By the way if you want to play nintendo games online and have fun you have to build or be in a strong close nit online community for that game...we call them clans. For example im a wii hunter for mario strikers charged...in this clan i play many of the best strikers out there and also play the other to strikers in i other clans...because if this im friends and am part of the top/competitve strikers commuinty.

so its kinda like who u know, but your correct random matches are usually not paired with someone of good skill(sometime tho)

I'm not sure if melee had clans, i think there are just crews(im not sure)...but with online clans are going to pop up...so find a good clan for u or even start one!... and eventually there will be clan wars...and as u get known u will eventually play with the best and be friends with the best...at least thats how it has worked with competitive wii and Ds games.

At least that is the route im going to take...and im also going to get all my friend codes in my Area in this forum...other wise it will be hard and random asking people on this forum unless yer friends with them...just my thoughts

 

[Mekos]

sorry double post dont read the first one...i tried to edit but smash boards doesnt work well on my computer...

u need to join a CLOSE NIT community to have fun online on the wii

 

[Zodiac]

We got F'ed by the casual gamer market, plain and simple. Nintendo fans will need to start considering if they really want to stick with a company that will be "Casualizing" there favorite franchises , if they botch the new zelda....I swear.

 

[Adi]

New sweetspotting tactics. Fox Illusion off stage+grab ledge=happy

Yeah that's good.

64 Style juggles return aka solid hit confirmation.

Not sure where you got this from. What I've heard there's even less of a combo potential then melee, let alone 64 because of the increased DI abilities.

More Variety in Character specific techniques/attributes. Super Armor, etc.

Also good.

Living Longer/Harder Difficulty in edgeguarding.

Dragged out matches are a good thing? Explain.

Balance. Which Sakurai said he was gonna do.

]

Balance... if anything this game is going to be more imbalanced then Melee. The exclusion of L-cancelling means that characters have low lag aerials, such as Meta and Pit will be dominating those who have severe lag such as Ganon. From the information we have, the balance of Brawl is not something to be desired.

More fighters you can shake a stick at. Wolf ftw.

Yay.

Decent yet mediocre online system. be thankful we got online.

Thankful? Nintendo should have done this years ago, and even if they're doing it now they should have at least made it good.

More replayability aspects.

Go go 1P fans.

More emphasis on spacing, and strategy comes to play. Because now you can't just throw out attacks all whilly nilly.

Here's a hint someone's never played competitively.

More stages-More easter eggs-It's been only a day or 2 since Japan had it.

Okay.

Hidden Potential in finding other advance techs besides SSBM's WD and L-cancel.

You cannot decide this to be a conclusive fact. For all we know what we have known to us is what we will have to work with in the competitive scene. It is up in the air right now.

 

[stelzig]

Then you better stay on these boards blacksmasher. This will most likely be the biggest gathering of pros in brawl as well... Btw to my knowledge there is no melee clans. TEC (which i am a member of) have recruited CAOTIC for melee already though, and i know EF (another european clan) is also trying to headhunt ssbm pros to prepare for brawl online.

legendofme: It isn't just about still being able to win. It's also about is it still fun to play competetively? Cause this will not always be the case. A game can be simplified and probability factored so much that even if competitive gamers can beat casual gamers the games lack of depth and room to explore new techniques and tricks can ruin it. You listed those things on your pro list, but we cannot be sure that they in fact WILL be there.

(I'm quite sure this is also what you mean, but i still think i have a right to talk about my concerns. )

 

[legendofme]

I'm just stating that people shouldn't assume. Forgive me on sounding aggressive, but it's annoying to here that. Especially in all the fighting game communities.

 

[legendofme]

Yeah that's good.





Here's a hint someone's never played competitively.

You cannot decide this to be a conclusive fact. For all we know what we have known to us is what we will have to work with in the competitive scene. It is up in the air right now.

1. I have been playing for some years now, and found this site out in like early '05. Now I ended my noob streak in quarter 4 of 06. Since MLG Dallas I've learned a lot about Smash because I am originally a traditional fighting game player (SF/GG/Marvel/etc.), and I use to think Smash was just a party game. Which it was suppose to be but y'all changed that didn't you? And we did pretty good in the tournament seeing as it was my 1st time plying good people. Our team got like 16th place or something like that I don't remember. Don't care lol.

2. Yes it is in the air. Which is why I'm saying we just can't wait?......

 

[MikeMan445]

I'm really glad they're actually balancing the game this time, it gets really old resorting to a handful of top tier characters to beat someone if they main a top tier. I'd like to be able to use mewtwo or bowser against marth or fox without having to practice like it's a job to have a chance. Anyone who isn't in favor of balance just wants their favorite character to be able to trash the others again. There's a reverse of this too, it would be a mistake to overcompensate and have all characters be the same. A good example would be if everyone was middle tier in reference to melee broken tiers, everyone would be contained in upper-mid, mid-mid, and low-mid. What would be overcompensation is everyone being mid-mid tier.

Hahahahahaha.

Dude.

Do me a favor. Look up some youtube brawl vids. Check out how fast sonic and metaknight move.

Then look at the video of ganondorf doing a target test in Brawl.

They took out l-canceling, which means that the slower characters will be EVEN WORSE in brawl. "Ganondorf competitively" will be an oxymoron. Any simian-brained idiot could dash dance camp ganon in brawl. This game will be completely broken in terms of the faster characters ******.

 

[Yuna]

I'm sure that Brawl will close the gap a little between people of different skills. However, you still have to know your character(s)' strengths and weaknesses. I'm glad they got rid of all the other exploits that were in Melee. Everything you need to become a pro player should be laid out in front of you, and shouldn't be a hidden exploit. Seriously, how else would I figure out wavedashing or L canceling? I'd hope that Brawl will be a game that's easy to get into, but hard to master.

Yes, if it's not in the manual, it must be an exploit. I guess edgehogging is an exploit. Or that evil thing called airdodging (I don't think it's in the instructional video). Heck, DI isn't mentioned anywhere. Neither is crouch cancelling. Is spotdodging covered in the instructional video? I remember rolling. Heck, reverse Side B? Jump-cancelling? Jumping out of shield? Powershielding? Priority? Clashing?

ZOMG! Remove all of them now because they aren't immediately obvious upon booting up the game! You figure out the techniques by, you know, trying to discover more about the game. A game where everything is obvious from the beginning is a boring and repetitive game.

The gap will always be there. You can dumb down the game technically how much you want, the gap between n00bs, casual players, intermediate players and pros will always be present. Why? Because only the intermediates and pros bother to learn how to play the game "properly", like what to do if Yoshi downsmashes your shield in Melee (wavegrab/wavesmash), what to do if someone dash attacks through you (jump out of shield), what to do is X character pressures your shield in Y way, how to best edgeguard Z character, how to best DI out of combos/to survive, how to best combo A character as B character, etc.

Fighting games are about a lot more than just technical skill, it's also about mindgames and knowledge of the game in general, not only your own character but the other characters in the game. This is why the competitive players will always destroy the non-competitive players who don't bother to learn everything they can about the game. There's no blame. It's their choice. But to whine about how Pros are destroying them and that the game should be dumbed down because they're too lazy to learn it properly? That's just stupid.

 

[Mr.C]

Id just like everyone to know one of the best Texas smashers has played the game. Thanks to a game store ebaying the Japanese version <3 <3

I soon will go and play Brawl for a few hours...and me being a skilled competitive player I'll at least know what I'm talking about....and try to give some good info.

So far Xelic from what I hear does not like Brawl...as much as Melee at least. First off, no form of L canceling pretty much means you have no way of getting out of a shield grab...he also said Brawl is really choppy and slowed down.

There is no dash dancing or any that can be used affectively and no wding...this means mobility has been greatly reduced.

You CAN also camp the edge for infinite invincibility thanks the in the introduction of homing missile upb's
which is pathetic.

SO pretty much the competitive aspect that we have all fell in love with because of Melee is gone in Brawl. Unless of course you want to play a game that is - whomever can get the first hit off... then camp on the ledge and stay in your shield the longest type of game which is exactly what Brawl is at the moment.

Now I'm not saying Brawl will be completely worthless as a game...it will probably be fun and sooner or later us competitive players will make the game "competitive" but one things for sure....Brawl will NEVER be as competitive as Melee. =[

 

[P.Vanity]

You CAN also camp the edge for infinite invincibility thanks the in the introduction of homing missile upb's
which is pathetic.

Ban it in tourny play....problem solved.

 

[Lawlb0t]

Basically what he trying to say, is that it is a party game.

 

[Mr.C]

Ban it in tourny play....problem solved.

Banning something like that is impossible. Someone can camp the edge until an opportunity opens up. Or until his opponent gets away from the edge allowing him to be safe. How can you enforce something like upb'ing to the edge? just because it so happens to give you infinite invulnerability.

Even in Melee this is possible with some characters. Most people don't resort to this because it CAN be unsafe if you mess up..due to you having to perfectly sweet spot, time your second jump or in sheiks case time your upb... there was room for error which made this situational....while in Brawl that error has disappeared....now all you have to do is drop down and push upb as fast as you can.

You can also already tell characters like Fox, Falco with their JC shines will be dominate in this game due to there being no Lcanceling. I'm sure since the game has slowed down preforming JC shine is much easier..meaning breaking a shield with JC shines will be much easier. Then again I haven't played the game yet so I'll check that out when I get my hands on it.

But still.....having no Lcanceling completely ruins the competitive aspect of the competitive smash scene.

 

[Fletch]

Banning something like that is impossible. Someone can camp the edge until an opportunity opens up. Or until his opponent gets away from the edge allowing him to be safe. How can you enforce something like upb'ing to the edge? just because it so happens to give you infinite invulnerability.

Even in Melee this is possible with some characters. Most people don't resort to this because it CAN be unsafe if you mess up..due to you having to perfectly sweet spot, time your second jump or in sheiks case time your upb... there was room for error which made this situational....while in Brawl that error has disappeared....now all you have to do is drop down and push upb as fast as you can.

You can also already tell characters like Fox, Falco with their JC shines will be dominate in this game due to there being no Lcanceling. I'm sure since the game has slowed down preforming JC shine is much easier..meaning breaking a shield with JC shines will be much easier. Then again I haven't played the game yet so I'll check that out when I get my hands on it.

But still.....having no Lcanceling completely ruins the competitive aspect of the competitive smash scene.

Have you played and confirmed this up+b thing yet Mr. C? This game is sounding worse and worse by the day... How could they miss something so obvious? And you have a point, this is going to be a tough thing to "ban", and even if it is banned, it just limits the game further as stalling doesn't become a valid option as it is basically unbeatable if this is the case.

 

[Mr.C]

Have you played and confirmed this up+b thing yet Mr. C? This game is sounding worse and worse by the day... How could they miss something so obvious? And you have a point, this is going to be a tough thing to "ban", and even if it is banned, it just limits the game further as stalling doesn't become a valid option as it is basically unbeatable if this is the case.

No I haven't played it yet....but Gimpy when at E for All said Link can use his hook shot infinitely while on the edge granting him invulnerability frames.

I also witnessed this in a Japanese match on youtube a Squirtle was multi upb'ing on the edge until he was safe to get back on to the level.

So I'm pretty positive you can infinite camp the ledge with upb's...although I'm sure there IS a way to counter this. But sooner or later I'll head down to the game store and test this out.

 

[Lawlb0t]

Sakurai is a fcking noob.

 

[S0crat3s]

No, you're not the only one not crying. Most newbs are not crying because nothing has happened to them. You're content to play the Party Game. Competitives have good reason to believe that competitive Brawl will be campy and unfun. If you don't understand why it's because you've never played competitively, don't know what playing competitively even means, and have never listened to them when they actually tried to explain why they think Brawl will suck for them.

Really, now? I play Melee as both a fighting AND party game...I'll slice up my methods for you:

FIGHTING
------------

-Items on Very Low or None

-Only advanced technique being applied is L-cancelling

-Matches are still pretty fast-paced, calculating my opponent's next move, getting into a better stance than him, dodging and rolling out of his attacks, attacking where I see openings, and killing when I see the opportunity

-Learning each characters strengths and weaknesses, and applying that knowledge to battles

-"Maining" a character that I feel the most comfortable playing, and therefore, more efficient at playing (Marth, in my case)

-1 vs. 1

**In other words, I play it as a thinking man's game: not depending on the randomness of items, learning about each character's ups and downs, picking one I'm best at, and applying all of my knowledge at the right time in order to become victorious (or lose graciously)**

PARTY
--------

-Items turned ON

-Any stage (except for Ice Climbers')

-More variety of characters

-More than two people playing

-Trying to win (or lose) in the coolest way possible

**Party Smash is different than Fighting Smash in the way that it isn't as cold and calculating as it is charged-smash-happy and crazy...I do it this way with friends or to introduce newbies to Smash**

--------------------------------------------------

But if you can multi-cancel waveshine combo, I'm fine with that, but I'm guessing that in Brawl, it'll be more of who can play their character better, smarter, and more efficiently, than who can apply wavedashing, shffling, and dash-dancing the best...I am really not that disappointed about Competitive Brawl in any way (I know how to pull of many advanced techniques well, but I don't use them because I, a competitive smasher, don't like them very much), and I'm assured that it will be more fun than Competitive Melee...And brighten up, all of you tourneysots, there will probably be many more, cooler, not-as-necessary-for-being-able-to-play-competitively advanced techs, you just need to look for them...Besides, wavelanding is still in...

 

[Mr.C]

Really, now? I play Melee as both a fighting AND party game...I'll slice up my methods for you:

FIGHTING
------------

-Items on Very Low or None

-Only advanced technique being applied is L-cancelling

-Matches are still pretty fast-paced, calculating my opponent's next move, getting into a better stance than him, dodging and rolling out of his attacks, attacking where I see openings, and killing when I see the opportunity

-Learning each characters strengths and weaknesses, and applying that knowledge to battles

-"Maining" a character that I feel the most comfortable playing, and therefore, more efficient at playing (Marth, in my case)

-1 vs. 1

**In other words, I play it as a thinking man's game: not depending on the randomness of items, learning about each character's ups and downs, picking one I'm best at, and applying all of my knowledge at the right time in order to become victorious (or lose graciously)**

PARTY
--------

-Items turned ON

-Any stage (except for Ice Climbers')

-More variety of characters

-More than two people playing

-Trying to win (or lose) in the coolest way possible

**Party Smash is different than Fighting Smash in the way that it isn't as cold and calculating as it is charged-smash-happy and crazy...I do it this way with friends or to introduce newbies to Smash**

--------------------------------------------------

But if you can multi-cancel waveshine combo, I'm fine with that, but I'm guessing that in Brawl, it'll be more of who can play their character better, smarter, and more efficiently, than who can apply wavedashing, shffling, and dash-dancing the best...I am really not that disappointed about Competitive Brawl in any way (I know how to pull of many advanced techniques well, but I don't use them because I, a competitive smasher, don't like them very much), and I'm assured that it will be more fun than Competitive Melee...And brighten up, all of you tourneysots, there will probably be many more, cooler, not-as-necessary-for-being-able-to-play-competitively advanced techs, you just need to look for them...Besides, wavelanding is still in...

I can already tell you suck and have never played the game on a competitive level.

Carry on. But to clear things up its not like you don't know what you're talking about. You just have never been part of the competitive smash scene as in going to major tourneys and playing top notch people.

 

[Fletch]

Really, now? I play Melee as both a fighting AND party game...I'll slice up my methods for you:

FIGHTING
------------

-Items on Very Low or None

-Only advanced technique being applied is L-cancelling

-Matches are still pretty fast-paced, calculating my opponent's next move, getting into a better stance than him, dodging and rolling out of his attacks, attacking where I see openings, and killing when I see the opportunity

-Learning each characters strengths and weaknesses, and applying that knowledge to battles

-"Maining" a character that I feel the most comfortable playing, and therefore, more efficient at playing (Marth, in my case)

-1 vs. 1

**In other words, I play it as a thinking man's game: not depending on the randomness of items, learning about each character's ups and downs, picking one I'm best at, and applying all of my knowledge at the right time in order to become victorious (or lose graciously)**

PARTY
--------

-Items turned ON

-Any stage (except for Ice Climbers')

-More variety of characters

-More than two people playing

-Trying to win (or lose) in the coolest way possible

**Party Smash is different than Fighting Smash in the way that it isn't as cold and calculating as it is charged-smash-happy and crazy...I do it this way with friends or to introduce newbies to Smash**

--------------------------------------------------

But if you can multi-cancel waveshine combo, I'm fine with that, but I'm guessing that in Brawl, it'll be more of who can play their character better, smarter, and more efficiently, than who can apply wavedashing, shffling, and dash-dancing the best...I am really not that disappointed about Competitive Brawl in any way (I know how to pull of many advanced techniques well, but I don't use them because I, a competitive smasher, don't like them very much), and I'm assured that it will be more fun than Competitive Melee...And brighten up, all of you tourneysots, there will probably be many more, cooler, not-as-necessary-for-being-able-to-play-competitively advanced techs, you just need to look for them...Besides, wavelanding is still in...

I can tell by your post that you do not play competitively, but I will respond anyways. It's not that you can apply these methods (any serious player can easily perform these techniques >95% of the times), but rather the mix-up/mindgame options they present. Brawl is going to become stale quickly because of the removal of these options, as it just takes away more strategies.

 

[S0crat3s]

I can tell by your post that you do not play competitively, but I will respond anyways. It's not that you can apply these methods (any serious player can easily perform these techniques >95% of the times), but rather the mix-up/mindgame options they present. Brawl is going to become stale quickly because of the removal of these options, as it just takes away more strategies.

That being said, that isn't the way I play at Serious Business tourneys, but how I prefer to play it when an equally-skilled friend wants to play it as a fighting game...And I have been on the competitive smash scene, and have been OHKO'd so badly by Fox so many times that it has become routine...From my point of view, competitive players have been a bit "ATs or GTFO," and are now "BAAAAWW" because they can't do it in Brawl...

But you're telling me that mindgaming is impossible without ATs? But I'd like to see how many self-proclaimed professionals will handle competitive Brawl...

"It only seems slower because ATs have been mostly removed. GTFO."

-Jesus

 

[Dark Sonic]

Banning something like that is impossible. Someone can camp the edge until an opportunity opens up. Or until his opponent gets away from the edge allowing him to be safe. How can you enforce something like upb'ing to the edge? just because it so happens to give you infinite invulnerability.

Yes it is. We already have banned instances like that in melee. Peach's side B stall is banned, The Luigi Ladder stall is banned, and this can simply be banned too. Heck, we even banned wobbling (though we didn't do a good job saying they can still do it up to 200%).

@S0crat3s- you missed the point. We're saying that advance techs is what made smash competative. It's what allowed smash to actually have a tournament scene and not just be a party game. We liked that competative side, and we haven't seen it yet in brawl, so we're kinda upset. Think of it like this. How would you feel if they took out all moving stages and all items and only left the current tourney level stages, but kept all the advance techs in and even added more? Competative players would be just fine with that, but casual players would be pissed. Well, that's how we feel now.

 

[S0crat3s]

Yes it is. We already have banned instances like that in melee. Peach's side B stall is banned, The Luigi Ladder stall is banned, and this can simply be banned too. Heck, we even banned wobbling (though we didn't do a good job saying they can still do it up to 200%).

I hope so...

They don't even count as mindgames, just stalls...

 

[S0crat3s]

Yes it is. We already have banned instances like that in melee. Peach's side B stall is banned, The Luigi Ladder stall is banned, and this can simply be banned too. Heck, we even banned wobbling (though we didn't do a good job saying they can still do it up to 200%).

@S0crat3s- you missed the point. We're saying that advance techs is what made smash competative. It's what allowed smash to actually have a tournament scene and not just be a party game. We liked that competative side, and we haven't seen it yet in brawl, so we're kinda upset. Think of it like this. How would you feel if they took out all moving stages and all items and only left the current tourney level stages, but kept all the advance techs in and even added more? Competative players would be just fine with that, but casual players would be pissed. Well, that's how we feel now.

Really? I recall Melee being competitive a good three months before the first AT was stumbled upon...ATs do help, but many things (Halo, Chess, Futból) are competition-worthy with out their equivalents of ATs...

 

[Mr.C]

Yes it is. We already have banned instances like that in melee. Peach's side B stall is banned, The Luigi Ladder stall is banned, and this can simply be banned too. Heck, we even banned wobbling (though we didn't do a good job saying they can still do it up to 200%).

How can you compare these things?

First of all, Peach wall bombing is only done on certain levels and requires you to fall under the stage putting yourself at risk, not to mention It CAN only be done with Peach.

Luigi's ladder can only be done with another luigi...you also have the risk of killing yourselves.

And SOME tournaments ban INFINITE WOBBLING used as a STALLING technique. Does this mean you can't wobble for 200%+ then kill your opponent? definitely not.

To put upb'ing on the ledge into the same category is ******** lol....of course you mean the fact they can all be used for stalling but guess what? When do you know your opponent is using upb invulnerability to stall the game? You will never know unless he straight out says
"hey I'm going to do this for the next 8 minutes because I'm ahead in percent." He can simply say hes not stalling and was only going to do it until he was safe from harm.....there are so many ways around this...and thats exactly why you just can't ban something like UPB'ING REPEATEDLY ONTO THE EDGE regardless of what it does.

 

[S0crat3s]

How can you compare these things?

First of all, Peach wall bombing is only done on certain levels and requires you to fall under the stage putting yourself at risk, not to mention It CAN only be done with Peach.

Luigi's ladder can only be done with another luigi...you also have the risk of killing yourselves.

And SOME tournaments ban INFINITE WOBBLING used as a STALLING technique. Does this mean you can't wobble for 200%+ then kill your opponent? definitely not.

To put upb'ing on the ledge into the same category is ******** lol....of course you mean the fact they can all be used for stalling but guess what? When do you know your opponent is using upb invulnerability to stall the game? You will never know unless he straight out says
"hey I'm going to do this for the next 8 minutes because I'm ahead in percent." He can simply say hes not stalling and was only going to do it until he was safe from harm.....there are so many ways around this...and thats exactly why you just can't ban something like UPB'ING REPEATEDLY ONTO THE EDGE regardless of what it does.

Or maybe we could spike the Squirtle that continuously Waterfalls the ledge? From what I know, invincibility frames only come into play when you first latch onto the edge...

 

[Fletch]

Or maybe we could spike the Squirtle that continuously Waterfalls the ledge? From what I know, invincibility frames only come into play when you first latch onto the edge...

Then what you know is ********... If what Mr. C says is right, invincibility will continue with Up+B stalling, allowing for the staller to never get hit.

 

[Mr.C]

That being said, that isn't the way I play at Serious Business tourneys, but how I prefer to play it when an equally-skilled friend wants to play it as a fighting game...And I have been on the competitive smash scene, and have been OHKO'd so badly by Fox so many times that it has become routine...From my point of view, competitive players have been a bit "ATs or GTFO," and are now "BAAAAWW" because they can't do it in Brawl...

But you're telling me that mindgaming is impossible without ATs? But I'd like to see how many self-proclaimed professionals will handle competitive Brawl...

"It only seems slower because ATs have been mostly removed. GTFO."

-Jesus

Advanced techniques do not make people good. I've 4 stocked people who have better tech skill then me. I can even beat most average players who even know how to Wd, Shffl etc with one hand.

Just because advanced techniques are not in Brawl doesn't mean you will have any more of a chance at getting any better or doing any better vs the skilled people. But what it DOES mean is the competitive aspect of the game has been dumbed down which is why a lot of competitive players are pissed.

Or maybe we could spike the Squirtle that continuously Waterfalls the ledge? From what I know, invincibility frames only come into play when you first latch onto the edge...

I forgot how long the invincibility frames last but I do know if you grab the edge and instantly jump off your keep your frames.

Then what you know is ********... If what Mr. C says is right, invincibility will continue with Up+B stalling, allowing for the staller to never get hit.

Now it doesn't mean there is NO way to stop the upb stall.....it would be just like Sheiks in Melee..but it is pretty **** difficult. The pros out weigh the cons 100%.

What I mean by that is the reason Sheiks will upb the edge repeatedly is to make their opponent either leave the ledge so you can get back on safely OR get your opponent to come closer trying to get you off the edge allowing you to attack when they make an error.

That why this is such a powerful technique.

 

[Kips]

See but stalls are completely understandable to remove. They deteroriate gameplay drastically while AT's add to gameplay while not neccesarily granting instant skill.

 

[S0crat3s]

Then what you know is ********... If what Mr. C says is right, invincibility will continue with Up+B stalling, allowing for the staller to never get hit.

****, really? I need to watch more videos...

As for competitive play being dumbed down, I would have to disagree...Do you forget the new airdodging mechanic, trip dodging, crawling, gliding, footstool jumping, etc.? Or are those not tourney-worthy...And the nonexistance of ATs is debatable...After all, did we discover wavedashing upon opening the box?

 

[Mr.C]

See but stalls are completely understandable to remove. They deteroriate gameplay drastically while AT's add to gameplay while not neccesarily granting instant skill.

Yes I completely agree. Stalling is cheap. But when you take into consideration the easiest stall tactic in the game is just jumping up and down on the edge/upb'ing repeatedly to keep invulnerability frames, how can that be enforced? After all your only jumping up and down/upbing onto the edge.

That why I'm saying enforcing a ban on those things is impossible. Because you just can't simply say "HEY!!! YOU CAN'T UPB ON THE EDGE ANYMORE!!!" you don't know if the person is using it as a stall technique or just trying to force you into a situation where you are in a disadvantage.

****, really? I need to watch more videos...

As for competitive play being dumbed down, I would have to disagree...Do you forget the new airdodging mechanic, trip dodging, crawling, gliding, footstool jumping, etc.? Or are those not tourney-worthy...And the nonexistance of ATs is debatable...After all, did we discover wavedashing upon opening the box?

You're right....there are many new things into this game...after all Brawl is a new game. =]
I'm not saying it won't be good. Just saying it won't be what we were all hoping for...which is the competitive feel of Melee.....that still doesn't mean Brawl won't have a brand new competitive feel we will all fall in love with...which I'm hoping it does! =]

 

[Gojithefox]

I welcome the changes. In Melee, I got used to playing without items, and now whenever I go against my boyfriend, I actually lose the first round because I'm knocked off balance with their inclusion. Without items, I decimate him, but with them, he stands an even chance. I tend to get screwed over by explosive things.

 

[legendofme]

Wow so Crouch cancel is gone, too.
Fox trotting is still in. at least : (
I hope my gut is wrong I mus play this game with utmost emergency.

hmm???

 

[IllidR]

This doesn't make sense, competitive players won't dominate? Just because they knew some advanced techniques that might of been removed does not mean that that was the only reason they were winning. They won because they were masters of strategies and anticipating opponents. They are generally better because you have to use these moves right in order to make them effective. Competitive players will still dominate.

 

[Titanium Dragon]

I think a lot of you are basically imagining things/thinking you're better than you really are.

Being good will be an enormous advantage in Brawl, just as it has been in every other SSB game. You don't even need to be able to do anything more complicated than shield-grabbing and l-cancelling to dominate people in SSBM, and the same will be true in Brawl. With advanced techniques, you will be all the better, but unless you're several orders of better better than another player you won't completely dominate them, the same as in SSBM as well.

I've 5-stocked people in SSBM before I knew how to wavedash; I five stocked people afterwards as well. The same will be true in brawl.

I think a lot of people are under this completely farcical assumption that the game lacks deep gameplay. We've no evidence that Brawl is lacking in deep gameplay, and it seems likely so far that it actually has some deep play. We won't know for a year how good of a game it is ultimately, but there's no reason to believe it won't be an even better game than SSBM. There's no reason to believe it will be worse.

All we really know is that it has all of the same basic mechanics from the last game, but some of their interactions are slightly different, which has eliminated some things but allowed for other new things to come along, and there are other new things added to the system as well as some of the basic actions being tweaked slightly. In the end, it seems likely it will be a refinement, and the extra time they spent perfecting the game hopefully means it is pretty well balanced.