Competitive players won't dominate???

[stelzig]

Mr.C: Wouldn't get rid of time for good and only play by stocks get rid of any possible stalling technique? I never really understood what the 8 minutes was good for other than maybe keep schedule so the matches never took that long. But then again i have only went to 1 major tournament and i never really investigated why the time is there so maybe i'm missing something? The only other reason than trying to keep a schedule i can think of is that in theory a guy could just stall forever if he don't think he can win the match anymore, but somehow i don't think many people would do that (but rather try to make a comeback) and the only thing the stall could do is to pressure people in the same manner as the sheik stall you mentioned. I know this is how msc players (the european anyway) handles stalling. Simply play without time, but then again msc is nowhere near melee in terms of competition.

Edit: Another idea that might could work as a "counter" is that the other player can also abuse the auto-sweetspot and time an upB to grab the edge before the staller. But maybe it will be too hard to get around the other guy to actually do it seeing as he has the invincibility frames.

 

[Yuna]

Mr.C: Wouldn't get rid of time for good and only play by stocks get rid of any possible stalling technique? I never really understood what the 8 minutes was good for other than maybe keep schedule so the matches never took that long. But then again i have only went to 1 major tournament and i never really investigated why the time is there so maybe i'm missing something? The only other reason than trying to keep a schedule i can think of is that in theory a guy could just stall forever if he don't think he can win the match anymore, but somehow i don't think many people would do that (but rather try to make a comeback) and the only thing the stall could do is to pressure people in the same manner as the sheik stall you mentioned. I know this is how msc players (the european anyway) handles stalling. Simply play without time, but then again msc is nowhere near melee in terms of competition.

Yes, time is to prevent matches from taking forever. Without time, some idiot could stall a tourney indefinitely.

Edit: Another idea that might could work as a "counter" is that the other player can also abuse the auto-sweetspot and time an upB to grab the edge before the staller. But maybe it will be too hard to get around the other guy to actually do it seeing as he has the invincibility frames.

So you solve the problem with infinite stall by having both players do it? Umm... yeaaah... also, only one party should infinite stall, the one in the lead with stocks/%s.

 

[True Fool]

I might like less advanced techniques. Myself and one of my friends are both pretty good at Melee, we used to go to tourneys on monday until they stopped. It took very long for me and my friend to teach our other friends advanced techs. They were all so far behind us, it frustrated us, and it frustrated them. I'm not necesarily saying that my friend and I would have the same problem with Brawl(I think they should be up to speed if they start with us), but for the sake of other players in similar situations, I think we may end up with more people being encouraged to attempt competitive play.

Just on a side note, playing with items did not help them, or anyone else when playing with me. I do go to tourneys, and play competitively, but with items on I'm near untouchable. I used to play with them a lot, and unlike Soul Calibur II, I didn't forget anything about it.

 

[stelzig]

Yes, time is to prevent matches from taking forever. Without time, some idiot could stall a tourney indefinitely.

Well maybe it's just me then, but to me playing to win is playing to win and not playing to draw. I think most people plays with that mindset. Regardless i think playing without time is better than playing with time with an unstoppable infinite stall. It's a choice between 2 evils.

So you solve the problem with infinite stall by having both players do it? Umm... yeaaah... also, only one party should infinite stall, the one in the lead with stocks/%s.

Nope i don't. The guy infinite stalling is the guy ahead because only he gets something out of it right? If i grab the edge before him and that way prevent him from grabbing the edge his UpB should continue up and the invincibility frames would end, thus i can attack again. My grab to the edge is not to stall myself (yet) since i am behind i am only interested in being able to attack.

 

[Yuna]

Well maybe it's just me then, but to me playing to win is playing to win and not playing to draw. I think most people plays with that mindset. Regardless i think playing without time is better than playing with time with an unstoppable infinite stall. It's a choice between 2 evils.

It's not fighting for a draw. At the end of a game, if the time runs out, the player with the most stocks win. If both players have the same amount of stocks, it's the player with the less percentage that wins. A draw only occurs if both players have the exact same percentage (though some tournies leave a 1-3% leeway to that rule).

Playing to win means playing to win. With this new "tech", "playing to win" means getting ahead and then stalling the game indefenitely.

Nope i don't. The guy infinite stalling is the guy ahead because only he gets something out of it right? If i grab the edge before him and that way prevent him from grabbing the edge his UpB should continue up and the invincibility frames would end, thus i can attack again. My grab to the edge is not to stall myself (yet) since i am behind i am only interested in being able to attack.

Without wavedashing, it is impossible to grab the ledge before the opponent can Up B again after letting go of the edge, especially since most Up Bs not autosweetspot so you don't even have to fall down a little before Up B:ing again.

It is impossible to grab the ledge inbetween the opponent's Up B stalls.

 

[stelzig]

It's not fighting for a draw. At the end of a game, if the time runs out, the player with the most stocks win. If both players have the same amount of stocks, it's the player with the less percentage that wins. A draw only occurs if both players have the exact same percentage (though some tournies leave a 1-3% leeway to that rule).

Playing to win means playing to win. With this new "tech", "playing to win" means getting ahead and then stalling the game indefenitely.

I think you misunderstood me here. When i said playing to draw i meant making the game go on forever. (playing without time and then stall). I am fully aware of that stalling when being ahead in time would be playing to win, therefore i questioned playing with time.

Without wavedashing, it is impossible to grab the ledge before the opponent can Up B again after letting go of the edge, especially since most Up Bs not autosweetspot so you don't even have to fall down a little before Up B:ing again.

It is impossible to grab the ledge inbetween the opponent's Up B stalls.

If you think it would be possible with wavedashing then it is definetly also possible to do now seeing as it is not only the staller that suddenly has auto edge sweetspotting.
This is also only a first thought that at least is possible in theory. Even if it won't work in practice then there's a chance that we will find other ways to stop it. I hate that it is here too, but i don't think we can be sure that it's an unstoppable stall yet.

 

[Sonic_Wolf]

feels better, and feels like i can even be able to kill a pro if we start at the same time

 

[Keitaro]

feels better, and feels like i can even be able to kill a pro if we start at the same time

I'm sure you won't.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=BX7hYdAZV1c

 

[legendofme]

It's not fighting for a draw. At the end of a game, if the time runs out, the player with the most stocks win. If both players have the same amount of stocks, it's the player with the less percentage that wins. A draw only occurs if both players have the exact same percentage (though some tournies leave a 1-3% leeway to that rule).

Playing to win means playing to win. With this new "tech", "playing to win" means getting ahead and then stalling the game indefenitely.


Without wavedashing, it is impossible to grab the ledge before the opponent can Up B again after letting go of the edge, especially since most Up Bs not autosweetspot so you don't even have to fall down a little before Up B:ing again.

It is impossible to grab the ledge inbetween the opponent's Up B stalls.

Actually all u have to do is run off, and hold it in the ledge's direction on this one to grab it.

 

[psykoplympton]

i think competetive players will dominate because we arent wasting our time looking at our character but watching our opponent. most casual players dont do this.

 

[Yuna]

Actually all u have to do is run off, and hold it in the ledge's direction on this one to grab it.

Still not in any way fast enough to grap the ledge before someone who's stalling has enough time to Up B and autosweetspot again.

 

[legendofme]

good speculation. I doubt it though. If the pros couldn't get passed some nonsense like that then I have no reason to even look at smash overall that means every single game. Nothing like that worked against me, and I'm not even half as good as some of the TX players. So I don't wanna hear that. Because of that's the case y'all should quit smash, and just don't play anything else. (well maybe SF4) No disrespect.

 

[Mr.C]

You realize ledge stalling in Melee is also unstoppable? The only things you can do is hope for your opponent to mess up or get in a lucky WD to the edge messing your opponent up...also putting you in danger. Ledge stalling is the most powerful thing in Melee at the moment IMO besides wobbling...no one uses it to its fullest because there is still a CHANCE you can mess up and lose a stock you should not have lost. Thats why people use it to lure their opponents in or away from the edge instead of using it as a stalling technique. Brawl gets rid of this CHANCE of messing up because you auto home onto the edge now....meaning you can infinitely drop down and press upb as fast as you can without punishment.

@ the time issue....plain and simple time has to be on during matches...not only does it stop 20 min camping matches, the time can also be used to pressure your opponent into situations you want him to be in. Why reward the person who is losing? If I get ahead in %'s its only common sense I will start to play defensively.

Also to the people who think when Brawl comes out you will automatically be good and start beating REAL competitive players, the people who are actually good at this game, go to major tournaments and play with other good people. Not the people who play random noobs at random local tourneys. IT ISN'T GOING TO HAPPEN. You will get ***** just as bad as your getting ***** in Melee right now.Having that mentality is exactly why you are not good at this game. Melee takes practice and lots of experience....ALL of that experience will be passed onto Brawl...we will just have to get the feel of a new game. Which won't be hard at all. You think your at a disadvantage right now because you started late? etc you will be at a disadvantage as soon as the competitive players start playing Brawl.

This whole "Less advanced techniques is good...it will make me a lot better!" bull crap has to stop, lol. No it will not make you any better. Some of the advanced techniques in Melee are not in Brawl but guess what? there will be new advanced techniques in Brawl. Give us competitive players a good 6 months to a year and Brawl will be looking like a completely different game than it is now.

EDIT: I cannot wait to play this game lol....can already tell Fox trotting will be the new form of maneuverability/easy way to pivot...watched that Marth link up a little and can already tell if you DI Marths Fthrow wrong you can get tippered =]

 

[legendofme]

"This whole "Less advanced techniques is good...it will make me a lot better!" bull crap has to stop, lol. No it will not make you any better. Some of the advanced techniques in Melee are not in Brawl but guess what? there will be new advanced techniques in Brawl. Give us competitive players a good 6 months to a year and Brawl will be looking like a completely different game than it is now."

Best post in 08. I don't like the random guys just saying they'll win now.

 

[Mr.C]

Ive already noticed a lot of grabs can be followed by another grab. Brawl looks like it will be focused around tech chase grabs/regular grabs and pivoting.

**** LOOKS EPIC
http://youtube.com/watch?v=mxfh5MyMdXY

Falco's dthrow can lead to another grab...Ganons -->b can tech follow now oooo **** then tech follow a downb!!! XD!

 

[Titanium Dragon]

It is possible that this stall works, but it depends on sufficient invincibility frames after letting go and your opponent not being able to sweet spot in before you. How reasonable either is I don't know, and I suspect we will find out in practice relatively soon.

If this was such a good technique people would do it in Melee, but it doesn't seem to work there either, despite it being quite possible to -do-, it isn't dominating tournaments. And it isn't because of wavedashing either.

 

[Mr.C]

It is possible that this stall works, but it depends on sufficient invincibility frames after letting go and your opponent not being able to sweet spot in before you. How reasonable either is I don't know, and I suspect we will find out in practice relatively soon.

If this was such a good technique people would do it in Melee, but it doesn't seem to work there either, despite it being quite possible to -do-, it isn't dominating tournaments. And it isn't because of wavedashing either.

High level players do this in Melee, lol. Sheiks upb invincibility, Marths normal jump etc....watch M2K videos or something. Like I said it isn't used for stalling in Melee because as humans we mess up. If we mess up we usually lose a stock because we are on the edge. Its mostly used to get people away/close to the edge in Melee atleast. Brawl takes away this chance to mess up because now ALL characters auto grab the edge with upb. Which means it very well can be used for easy stalling.

 

[Eric the Lone]

Pointless discussion

 

[DoritoXI]

Brawl should take skill but we don't need any L-canceling or wavedashing and just because there gone doesn't mean this game can't be competitive.

 

[Titanium Dragon]

High level players do this in Melee, lol. Sheiks upb invincibility, Marths normal jump etc....watch M2K videos or something. Like I said it isn't used for stalling in Melee because as humans we mess up. If we mess up we usually lose a stock because we are on the edge. Its mostly used to get people away/close to the edge in Melee atleast. Brawl takes away this chance to mess up because now ALL characters auto grab the edge with upb. Which means it very well can be used for easy stalling.

I'm aware of its uses in Melee, but it is not a dominant strategy; that is to say, stalling on the ledge is not the #1 thing you want to be doing. It can be used as a part of a greater strategy, but it isn't used exclusively.

I also doubt it will be anywhere near as effective as you seem to believe, as it is a highly obvious strategy which seems likely to have been taken into consideration such that it won't annoy people.

 

[PNTBuenaPark]

hense why your a smash noob. although no wave dashing we can live without, l-canceling is everything.

 

[DoritoXI]

If you need your l-canceling then go play melee, oh and your also a smash n00b if you didn't notice.

 

[Heavyarms2050]

This mean that with the pro/noob gap shorten, only the truly great will prevail

 

[D00MofHyrule]

to all people who turn items off:
why?
using items doesnt make you less skilled.
why would they put them in the game if you shouldnt use them?
you just suck the fun out of the game just like the people who only use fox and the people who only play battlefield. get a life. smash is about variety

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

You know, with this whole "competitive players will always trounce n00bs, ect." It kind of gives a disheartining message to those who hope to eventually achieve such a rank...

 

[Mr.C]

to all people who turn items off:
why?
using items doesnt make you less skilled.
why would they put them in the game if you shouldnt use them?
you just suck the fun out of the game just like the people who only use fox and the people who only play battlefield. get a life. smash is about variety

Because when you're playing for $1000+ you don't want some random box to drop on your head and blow you up for a stock. It can also be an unfair advantage to those who were farthest away from the item spawn.

When playing competitive you rely on YOUR skill. And choosing certain characters gives you an advantage, all games will have a tier list.

How is that sucking the fun out of the game? people who go to tournaments go because they have fun playing competitively, if you have fun playing casually then play with your friends and leave us alone, lol. No one is forcing you to go to tournaments.

You know, with this whole "competitive players will always trounce n00bs, ect." It kind of gives a disheartining message to those who hope to eventually achieve such a rank...

Why? they expect to automatically be good? some of us better players have been practicing for several years. It takes time, practice, and experience to be good at something. This even goes for video games.

You think Michael Jordan was automatically one of the best NBA players if not the best to ever play? no. He had to practice his *** off to get that good. If someone wants to get good at something it takes hard work...plain and simple.

 

[D00MofHyrule]

you might wanna think about getting a life, Mr.C

 

[Dark Sonic]

You know, with this whole "competitive players will always trounce n00bs, ect." It kind of gives a disheartining message to those who hope to eventually achieve such a rank...

Yeah, I know what you mean. And now they're afraid that becomming a competative player means becomming an elitist. It would be so much easier if casuals would just leave us alone and stop feeling so strongly about their apathy. (+2 charisma for anyone who gets the reference).

 

[Spellman]

Because when you're playing for $1000+ you don't want some random box to drop on your head and blow you up for a stock.

I'd love for that to happen to my opponent.

Anyways, if you're trying hard to win, then you're competitive, and some competitive players will win more then other competitive players... as it has always been... I don't quite understand how this game could be interpreted otherwise...

It's not like random, like one match you're going to win, and one match you're going to lose, no matter who you face, unless you're equally matched or something.

 

[Mr.C]

you might wanna think about getting a life, Mr.C

I have a life? lol

I am also a very attractive young man...I pimp the ladies son. Fresh dressed...fresh dressed.

 

[tshahi10]

hahahahahahhaha lolololol
disheartining the new players.
no, they actually do that to themselves.

Ex. from couple years ago. very small mall tournament in finals

"I'm so good, like i have beaten every body by 3 stocks"(5 stock tourney)
endless noobish bragging
i play him, 5 stocked. you should have seen the look on his face after he was bragging so much

any competitive player would crush that noob of a smash spamming marth player

i did preorder brawl and i am playing it.

i feel that what happened in brawl was that the did not shorten the gap between a competitive player's skill and that of a noobish player, but they did hell a of a lot shortened the time for technical skills between the two levels. competitive people are still mpre smarter, but they only push the right buttons a little more faster now

 

[DTR]

Can anybody say anything that isnt one of the following:

1. pros are still better and will still win... I think this has been established quite a few times

2. flaming people better or worse than yourself. Its not so bad with the ladder of the 2, but the first is kinda bad.

 

[stelzig]

Alright while i understand that time issue (which i even mentioned myself in the very first post about it i made) then i wouldn't call it rewarding the losing player to play without time. I would rather say it is disadvantaging/rewarding the winning player to have time exactly because you can start play more defensively making it even harder to make a comeback when behind than it already is.


Edit: And while this "new players won't get good at this game" is probably true to a great extent (and i am sure most of the people sounding confident that they will be the best won't get close) there will for sure be some new people that will come up on top. If not completely new to competitive gaming then at least a few people with no past experience from exactly smash, but has been playing other games competetively.

 

[True Fool]

I'm a little glad about the increased simplicity. Of course I don't want the game to be shallow, but I also don't want it to be a game that takes really long to learn. It helps more people to join the competitive scene. And I think that the bigger it is, the more varieties we'll see among playing styles.

 

[Yuna]

High level players do this in Melee, lol. Sheiks upb invincibility, Marths normal jump etc....watch M2K videos or something. Like I said it isn't used for stalling in Melee because as humans we mess up. If we mess up we usually lose a stock because we are on the edge. Its mostly used to get people away/close to the edge in Melee atleast. Brawl takes away this chance to mess up because now ALL characters auto grab the edge with upb. Which means it very well can be used for easy stalling.

The problem is that it's much easier to do and much harder to screw up in Brawl. Whoops, you mistimed and didn't grab the ledge, quickly, Up B and auto-sweetspot for invicinbility! If you mess up, you no longer have to panic possibly messing up your timing, not sweetspotting and getting punished for it since most Up Bs auto-sweetspot now.

 

[Kips]

The problem is that it's much easier to do and much harder to screw up in Brawl. Whoops, you mistimed and didn't grab the ledge, quickly, Up B and auto-sweetspot for invicinbility! If you mess up, you no longer have to panic possibly messing up your timing, not sweetspotting and getting punished for it since most Up Bs auto-sweetspot now.

Possibly they could feasibly limit the invincibility frames to per use. For example, the first sweetspot would grant invincibility but the followups would not give this kind of effect.

 

[Ebony Princess]

The better player will still win, of course.

An analogy: It would be like a pro basketball player playing some random kid. However, they are playing on a 5 foot goal, so it's easier for the random kid to score. He'll still lose, but he is more likely to score a few points at least.

That analogy makes no sense.

 

[Puffs]

Three Foxes and unchanged Marth. I think it's clear Masahiro was lying about balancing the game.

 

[Gojithefox]

Can anybody say anything that isnt one of the following:

1. pros are still better and will still win... I think this has been established quite a few times

2. flaming people better or worse than yourself. Its not so bad with the ladder of the 2, but the first is kinda bad.

Flaming someone because of their abilities is bad, regardless. One is not worse or more acceptable than the other. If I'm a less experienced player than you, my flaming of you is no worse than your flaming of me, provided we both know what we're talking about.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Three Foxes and unchanged Marth. I think it's clear Masahiro was lying about balancing the game.

You do realize that Fox, Falco, and Wolf all have different movesets. They're more different than Gannondorf and Captain Falcon, that's for sure.

And with edgeguarding practically gone, I'm quite pleased to see that they didn't nerf him even more.