Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[LancerStaff]

Yaknow, for all this talk of wanting consistency in a swordie, nobody actually wants to play Pit.

He’s got plenty of kill confirms now, his reward in damage is ratcheted up to ridiculous levels, his projectiles are crazy good (counting Dark Pit together), he’s got actual landing options, very good OoS game, great grab reward, he weighs almost as much as Mario...

He doesn’t have blue hair, I guess. I know I’m beating a dead horse but now more than ever he feels like Lucina but better. I mean, even his Fair and Bair kill sooner than Lucina’s. Pit’s got a bunch of moves that are stronger than hers, and what’s weaker than hers aren’t much weaker at all.

 

[Foie]

I'm very concerned about the balance team relying on their own assessments... This means balance could be based on online stats exclusively with its extra input lag.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a massive disconnect between competitive viability and actual balance changes. On the bright side, characters like fox and peach are probably safe, along with other fast-striking precision-oriented characters. The main victims of neglect, or worse, unwarranted nerfs could be characters who struggle against these oppressive characters offline, but have a better time with the extra input lag (characters like and others).

I guess it's too early to be speculating a ton, especially before the first balance patch. For all we know they could be taking high level tourney matches and results into account. Also, balancing based on online play isn't objectively bad, indeed that's where the vast majority of players play and where the most people will affected by the balance changes. It's just not at all optimal for competitive play, which is what we all care about.

As a side note, does anyone else find it odd that Genesis 6 might be running on an old version? I understand their reasoning, but having a huge tourney with results that are could be immediately outdated by some measure is kinda disappointing. (Genesis 6 uses whatever patch is live a full 2 weeks before the tournament)

 

[Thinkaman]

The simplest Mac buff would be to give him a crazy high first jump (enough to reach high-ish platforms in one go) but keep his second jump bad/perhaps even make it worse. All Mac truly needs, IMO, is the ability to not get hard stage-countered.

I already think the faster fall speed he has in Ultimate is actually to let him land on platforms more quickly anyway.

This.

Also, I don't think it would be problematic to go back to restoring side-b on hit.

You could also play with d-tilt numbers until he is in a good place.

(Also I thought Mac was a terrible design when he was announced, but in practice I think he works great and I love him. He just has very large stage skew. A little less than people actually think! But still the most in the cast, and all Ultimate stage lists are worse for him than any Smash 4 stage list that excluded Duck Hunt.)

I'm very concerned about the balance team relying on their own assessments... This means balance could be based on online stats exclusively with its extra input lag.

I mean, "there own assessments" are offline matches internal, which apparently includes (or did include) some best-of-the-best top Japanese talent.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a massive disconnect between competitive viability and actual balance changes.

This does not align with what we've observed. The Smash 4 patches were pretty tightly aligned with the competitive scene (moreso the Wii U patches), and the changes in Ultimate are a firm reiteration of the same trends.

All the right people were nerfed, all the right people were buffed--the only complaints have been isolated matters of magnitudes: speculation that a couple of nerfs were too much (Rosa, Corrin, Sheik?) and that a couple of characters could use further buffs.

The only "disconnect" I'm worried about is specifically K. Rool.

 

[peekpeek]

Now for some commentary:

, , and (and to a lesser extent , , , , and ) continue to be disproportionately represented among top players compared to the community at large. Also, 3 mains?!?

Comparatively, we're seeing a striking under-representation of and , as well as , , , and . is well represented but still lags behind his extreme broader popularity. is actually underrepresented compared to his broader play rate and how much we talk about him. The most popular character not represented is .

Speaking of, remember when we all agreed is really good? Well, he doesn't exist outside of Len. Also is AWOL outside of SDX, and only makes the list as M2K's secondary . Worth also noting that 's early hype is not panning out.

continues to be big on all fronts, as does and .

is the only super-heavyweight in like the top 30, unless you count . There is a decent showing by various heavyweights though, even if smaller, faster characters still appear to run the show more than not.

And of course, remains the greatest mystery.


Most of the unused characters are not a surprise, super unpopular characters outside of for the most part, though I'm a tad surprised there's not a Swordfighter somewhere?

is another matter, and is an issue. He is indeed minimally played in the broader competitive scene, especially for a hyper-awaited newcomer that is a personality fit for many players. Yet I would not be surprised if he is nerfed, just because he is EVERYWHERE online and he is just so overwhelming to weaker players. He has a long litany of <90-percentile strengths: Good (armored) buttons, super easy and "safe" recovery, oppressive projectiles, a low-% kill confirm throw on people who don't mash, ect. It's like you let your kid cousin design "the most overpowered character ever!" who has no idea how the game actually works. Latency also favors his kit generously.

Now, obviously K. Rool actually sucks. Even online, he's not a hard puzzle to figure out. I actually really enjoy fighting him (independent of him being bad and me liking winning, I mean), and find his kooky kit design to be downright fun outside of a balance lens. But short of significantly overhauling the character, I don't know how you could remove the massive skill skew and get a character who is relevant at higher levels yet not winning half of all online matches. (I guess you could always weasel in esoteric tech-skill-intensive features for the sake of it, but that's sort of a cop-out.)

Edit: I do feel that the abundance of armored trade opportunities (+ massive weight) does at least put a floor on how bad K. Rool can actually be. He demands considerably more respect than most other "bad" characters, especially those in past games.

Edit: On the subject of online-targeting nerfs, I could also fathom adjustments to Ness Pk Fire/Thunder, and maybe Lucas Pk Freeze. Weaker players seem to just get wrecked in a jarring way; nothing else strikes me as especially problematic with latency.

isn't oppressive or as problematic for weaker players, but he actually an even bigger extreme of EVERYWHERE at lower/online levels and non-existent in the competitive scene. He's technically listed as a secondary for Captain L, but I'd honestly be surprised if we see it again soon--it definitely seemed to be his weakest character and all games I saw of his Kirby did not seem impressive. (Compared to his great Pichu and Jiggs, I mean)

I feel like the biggest shoo-in for buffs are . They are super unpopular at all levels of play, without being esoteric weirdos like . (Well, Isabelle is played a bit at lower levels, but seemingly less than you'd think and less than other newcomers.) These 3 characters, with their personalities, SHOULD be widely played and loved. But nothing could be further from the truth, and we all know it's just because they are bad. and Mii Brawler (and maybe Doc and Villager...?) almost fit this criteria, but their lack of popularity is less striking (and they seem to be better represented at lower-level play best I can tell)

This is one of the best posts in this thread. Thank you for this. Not many people have given sweeping discussions like this that go beyond tier lists for a giant chunk of the characters.

Out of ~1000 quickplays, mostly split between (~200) and (~600), I've seen a good range of both high tier and lower tier play.

I think I've encountered
only twice, and BJr only 3 or 4 times. Ice Climbers probably twice. Everyone else hasn't been absolutely shocking to encounter. Mid-tier play looks like wall to wall gauntlets of BJr's worst matchups. Like, 50% of matches are against Cloud, Pichu, Lucina, Young Link, and Wolf (Fast disjoints and projectiles that stop his kart).

Bowser Jr. needs more super armor on his kart, so a bunch of characters can't so easily shut down his most important move (arguably). The difference between fighting and is tremendous, mostly on YL being able to shut down the kart if he knows where the B-button is on his controller.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

This.

Also, I don't think it would be problematic to go back to restoring side-b on hit.

You could also play with d-tilt numbers until he is in a good place.

Side-b on hit would be fine I think. D-tilt sure, though they probably won't have it be a comboing machine again. Fix ftilt so it links more consistently if possible.

Can't give full thoughts due to sprain elbow but: making slip counter work better against aerial attacks/as an anti-air?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Yaw is Fox's U Smash even STRONGER in this game!? Because he's taking stocks even earlier than I remember him doing. Why is this move so seriously OP in literally every Smash game?

 

[Nobie]

Suspect that goes against design philosophy of him being bad in the air. Same general reasoning for Snake's first jump being bad.

But that wouldn't make him good in the air, it would just make him good at jumping specifically from the ground. His aerials would still be garbo, and his recovery would still be the pits.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Yaw is Fox's U Smash even STRONGER in this game!? Because he's taking stocks even earlier than I remember him doing. Why is this move so seriously OP in literally every Smash game?

The move actually did get a slight knockback scaling buff between 4 and Ultimate (94 to 97). Nothing really big, but as to why they even did that in the first place... yeah, I have no clue.

 

[Lavani]

Yaw is Fox's U Smash even STRONGER in this game!? Because he's taking stocks even earlier than I remember him doing. Why is this move so seriously OP in literally every Smash game?

3 more KBG, which makes it kill around 4% earlier on its own

Meshima tweeted a few days ago about gravity/fall speed being altered to weight-based/standardized values during knockback in Ultimate, which would change how far characters are launched vertically compared to previous titles. At a glance I feel like it'd improve most/all characters' survivability vertically though (during knockback, fallspeed=1.8 and gravity=0.0756 - 0.000336 * (100 - Weight). Effectively means the fall speed of Roy/Mega Man/Falco/Yink/etc and floaty gravity ranging from 0.062832 (Pichu) to 0.08736 (Bowser)).

 

[Thinkaman]

Also is in a somewhat similar situation as ; she basically doesn't exist offline but is everywhere online.

The difference is that Samus seems far better at higher-levels of play, as supported by the #1 Japanese online ladder playing maining Samus; Latency is just very kind to her.

Edit: On the subject of "not listening to the Internet about balance", for posterity I'm going to quote IGN's "Super Smash Bros. Ultimate: 6 Overpowered Characters That NEED Nerfs":

Ness. Characters who can kill with throws are a challenge to deal with, but they aren't game breaking. Unless we're talking about Ness, who is a straight assassin with his throw. His psychic clutch can grab you out of most attacks and combos. This is nothing new, but almost all of his moves have received buffs, most notably his PK Fire. It interprets with multiple hits and chains quite nicely. He was already solid, but now he is a PK headache. It seems Lucas was nerfed by Ness absorbing his excess psychic energy.

Young Link. It's interesting when three incarnations of the same character are reincarnated into another new version of themselves. While one can argue the merits of each Link, Young Link is the clear winner. While Young Link may lack solid kill confirms, he has little to no lag in his movements. Which is insane in a game like Smash Bros. Think Fox from Melee, but with less power. With the ability to short hop and fire fast arrows, throw a bomb, and get a boomerang off before opponents can get in a single smash. The switch up potential is almost infinite. Young Link may not be dominating the online scene yet, but give it time.

King K. Rool. Super Smash Bros. Ultimate has included a choice cast of new and unexpected fighters, and the leader of the Kremlings has been a highly requested character. Well, it's safe to say that Sakurai over delivered. King K. Rool is the best heavy the series has ever seen, point blank period. With great recovery, massive hitboxes, an extended counter, and probably one of the best neutral specials in the game. It that wasn't enough he has a crawling dash that can duck under some attacks. The worst part is King K. Rool is relatively easy to use. The community is going to have to figure out a way to deal with this nuclear threat if he dodges the first round of nerfs.

Roy. The young lion returned to Smash as DLC in the last installment, and it seems he is back for the respect he's due. Roy's blade is the fastest of his sword-wielding brethren, which is saying a lot. Because of the system changes in Ultimate, many battles will be decided on player's abilities to attack or defend while airborne. With devastating aerials and tilts Roy can easily juggle opponents like he was the court jester. To add fuel to the fire, all four of his smash attacks have great potential for KOs.

Diddy Kong. Arguably the best player in the world used Diddy Kong as his main in Smash 4, so his merits are well documented. Even after some hefty rebalancing, this Kong is still a force to be reckoned with. Diddy's reach is reduced on most of his moves, including the combo-friendly monkey flip, but his base speed in every category has increased. He’s also much lighter but has less landing lag from aerial attacks. All these little adjustments, in reality, have made the chimp more deadly than before. His recovery has improved to a point where his shorter reach has become a non-factor. Even his banana peel has been buffed, It now disappears after two throws, which means Diddy Kong really is a slippery foe to tangle with.

Simon/Richter. It's poetic that two warriors who have spent years fighting with death would be so good at dealing it. Though Smash Bros. is different by design regarding fighting games, universal principles liking zoning still apply, and the Belmonts are masterful at it. They have so many items in the tool belt to keep opponents at bay: The Axe can pass through obstacles, the Cross travels back and forth in a straight line at the heights it's thrown, and their Holy Water is like PK Fire on steroids. Their tilt attacks have good reach with the same knockback power of your average smash, while their actual smash attacks cover the most distance in the game. Did I mention their chain whips can ledge grab? To top it all off, a zero to death combo has already been discovered for the Belmonts. Before people start to riot in the street, be calm because it takes a high level of skill to be viable with a Belmont... for now.

 

[Terotrous]

This is probably going to be controversial, but I don't think is nearly as bad as most tier lists are currently placing him. If you look at Thinkaman's post on why he destroys noobs, most of those traits (good hitboxes, armor, decent projectiles, kill throws) are still known to be significant to character viability in top level play. I kind of feel like most people are underrating him in response to him being overrated in low level play, possibly because most people's experience fighting him is limited to people who abuse low level tactics that are easily beaten. Like for example, sure, we all know DThrow to stuff is not guaranteed at like 60ish, but you can read and chase the mashout with buttons ala ROB, and his throws legitimately start killing you around 120 anyway. Overall he seems to have a lot of good tools throughout his kit and I'd be very surprised if he's lower than mid tier.

Oh, and Thinkaman raised the question of "how do you solve the discrepency between the results gets in low level play vs high level play", and I think there's a good answer to this - Significantly reduce the effectiveness of mashing vs the bury effect. Maybe make it so that with optimal mash, you escape like 25% faster than with no mash, rather than like 1000% faster. This might instantly make him super OP because the Dthrow -> Fsmash combo would start to be legitimately inescapable starting at like 60%, if this is the case, reduce base bury duration until it starts to work at the percentage you would consider "optimal". In general I've always felt like mashing to escape moves is a dumb mechanic anyway, it's not like it involves any degree of skill or anything. They could remove it entirely and I don't think it would ever be missed by anyone.

 

[Megamang]

Yaw is Fox's U Smash even STRONGER in this game!? Because he's taking stocks even earlier than I remember him doing. Why is this move so seriously OP in literally every Smash game?

Its his signature thing. Fox kills vertically very well (also gimps with shine), has fast combos, but lacks a forward facing spacing move with significant range and has a predictable and stuffable recovery.


IMO they did this very very well in ultimate. The characters feel unique, and they feel like they have strengths authentic to either their identity or at the least their smash identity. The engine no doubt plays a part in this. With the ceilings being much higher / less combos take you right to the blastzone, vertical kill moves are buffed but also systemically nerfed a bit. Its still a huge boon to consistency being able to kill anywhere on screen... but with the increased importance of edgeguarding, horizontal kill moves are also very valuable. Many characters are in a bad spot if they get f-smashed by Lucina at 30%! Not that being above is particularly great either, but DAD gives you some leverage... but it doesn't come down to 'spam airdodge and slightly change timing, hope they dont' hit the 2 frames of vulnerability I have'. which is great.

 

[Thinkaman]

This is probably going to be controversial, but I don't think is nearly as bad as most tier lists are currently placing him. If you look at Thinkaman's post on why he destroys noobs, most of those traits (good hitboxes, armor, decent projectiles, kill throws) are still known to be significant to character viability in top level play. I kind of feel like most people are underrating him in response to him being overrated in low level play, possibly because most people's experience fighting him is limited to people who abuse low level tactics that are easily beaten. Like for example, sure, we all know DThrow to stuff is not guaranteed at like 60ish, but you can read and chase the mashout with buttons ala ROB, and his throws legitimately start killing you around 120 anyway. Overall he seems to have a lot of good tools throughout his kit and I'd be very surprised if he's lower than mid tier.

While I'm not that optimistic, I'll reiterate that I think he has a much higher floor than past bad characters and that we are probably having, to some extent, a knee jerk biased opinion against him due to the skill skew. (Especially when talking about how bad K. Rool can be taken as some sort of "I'm not one of those baddies" swagger)

I do love those d-throw mixups when I play him!

Oh, and Thinkaman raised the question of "how do you solve the discrepency between the results gets in low level play vs high level play", and I think there's a good answer to this - Significantly reduce the effectiveness of mashing vs the bury effect. Maybe make it so that with optimal mash, you escape like 25% faster than with no mash, rather than like 1000% faster. This might instantly make him super OP because the Dthrow -> Fsmash combo would start to be legitimately inescapable starting at like 60%, if this is the case, reduce base bury duration until it starts to work at the percentage you would consider "optimal". In general I've always felt like mashing to escape moves is a dumb mechanic anyway, it's not like it involves any degree of skill or anything.

While I'm Team Anti-Mashing, I'm not sure "just give the heavies throw kill-confirms!" proved to be an enjoyable solution in Smash 4. (It was a solution though, certainly...)

 

[DavemanCozy]

Yaw is Fox's U Smash even STRONGER in this game!? Because he's taking stocks even earlier than I remember him doing. Why is this move so seriously OP in literally every Smash game?

The range buff lets it hit above BF platforms too. It makes things like Utilt sweetspot -> Usmash and late dash attack -> usmash work around the 70% range (character dependent too). Meaning it does kill earlier by virtue of also having confirms into the move and letting it hit higher than before.

On another topic...

BRAWL DIDDY IS THAT YOU!?!

 

[Terotrous]

While I'm Team Anti-Mashing, I'm not sure "just give the heavies throw kill-confirms!" proved to be an enjoyable solution in Smash 4. (It was a solution though, certainly...)

To be honest, I think they probably should have them (it's kind of a fighting game staple that you usually don't want to get grabbed by big slow characters), but regardless of how you feel about throw confirms, I think we should all agree that you shouldn't have kill confirms gated based on whether or not you understand a mechanic that the game never really explains to you. Playing against K Rool is sort of about whether or not you know the "secret code" that lets you escape his down throw, which is just dumb. I think the key is to level the playing field, so that his throw setups either work or don't work against all players, then see what else needs to be done to bring his viability into line.

Granted, I have very little faith that the balancing team would actually make this sort of change. They'll probably just nerf the bejeezus out of KRool so he's totally unviable at all levels of play and leave it at that.

 

[MG_3989]

Really nice to see Maister getting so far with Mr. Game and Watch; from what I can tell, it seems like he's been doing very well in adapting to and optimizing the changes he got from Smash 4 to Ultimate.



Another thing to note is that this tournament had over 2000 COMBATANTS; in that regard; I'd say getting Bestness and POW getting near the top 50 is quite a feat in of itself, especially when you consider that he wasn't too far off from players such as Dark Wizzy, Lima, and 6WX.

To be honest, characters like Kirby, the Pits, WFT, etc. WISH they could have the kind of representation Ness has atm.

This is true. I don’t understand Pit’s lack of representation, he’s a good character. At least Ness will always have his dedicated mains that are dominant with him and even though I think he deserves more play because he’s really good in this game so far and I can see him placing even better in majors in the future. I do feel bad for characters like Pit who is definitely a good character with a lot of potential

Kirby isn’t gonna see representation until people think they can actually win with him and I don’t see that happening in Ultimate. It’s unfortunate that he’s been so bad ever since Melee. There’s a lot they can do with the character and he can be fun to play. I think Sakurai seriously nerfs Kirby on purpose to seem “unbiased”

 

[Rizen]

Edit: On the subject of "not listening to the Internet about balance", for posterity I'm going to quote IGN's "Super Smash Bros. Ultimate: 6 Overpowered Characters That NEED Nerfs":

Oh god, I'm going to be sick.

He doesn’t have blue hair, I guess. I know I’m beating a dead horse but now more than ever he feels like Lucina but better. I mean, even his Fair and Bair kill sooner than Lucina’s. Pit’s got a bunch of moves that are stronger than hers, and what’s weaker than hers aren’t much weaker at all.

Something I complained about in SSB4 is Link is "out-angled" by Marcina. I think that applies here. Lucina has huge arcs to almost all of her attacks. Fair effectively covers diagionally above and below her as well as in front. This makes her buttons effective regardless of imprecise positioning. If Pit wants to Fair/Bair/Ftilt etc he needs to be lined up properly. Lucina has a circle around her that she can hit any part of in roughly 6 frames. It's a big reason why she's so oppressive.

The difference between Ness and Isabelle is Ness is good so I don’t see a lot of people picking up Isabelle in a serious major

Isabelle is a good example of an undertuned character. Her attacks are all solid, fishing rod is versitile and works with Loid mines and she has a long recovery. Her problem is nothing is great. Loid's kind of annoying but doesn't have a large influence on a game. Fishing poll is good but there are fair ways around it, as with all her attacks. Nothing hits particularly hard. So when she's fighting a character who's actually oppressive she loses to their strengths and has no overtuned gameplan to force on them.
I fought a couple isabelles with YL. Pocket catches a projectile but it's not enough to keep YL from out-spamming her. She gets some hits in but YL's combos and strings are more effective. Isabelle gets outclassed.

Ness on the other hand is overtuned.

 

[MG_3989]

Isabelle is a good example of an undertuned character. Her attacks are all solid, fishing rod is versitile and works with Loid mines and she has a long recovery. He problem is nothing is great. Loid's kind of annoying but doesn't have a large influence on a game. Fishing poll is good but there are fair ways around it, as with all her attacks. Nothing hits particularly hard. So when she's fighting a character who's actually oppressive she loses to their strengths and has no overtuned gameplan to force on them.
I fought a couple isabelles with YL. Pocket catches a projectile but it's not enough to keep YL from out-spamming her. She gets some hits in but YL's combos and strings are more effective. Isabelle gets outclassed.

Ness on the other hand is overtuned.

She definitely needs something more. She’s doesn’t have a terrible kit by any means and has some pretty cool moves. She’s missing the kill power of Villiger though. The tree and the rocket are two of his best moves and Isabelle got them replaced with two moves that are good and can be annoying but are very easy to play around. Plus she doesn’t have the rocket recovery to help prevent edgeguarding the way Villager does. She’s definitely not up to par with Falco, Wolf, and Lucas as “semi-clones” and there seems like no reason to pick her over Villager

I definitely wouldn’t be opposed to some buffs for her because she’s an interesting character and I’d like to see her do well

Edit: On the subject of "not listening to the Internet about balance", for posterity I'm going to quote IGN's "Super Smash Bros. Ultimate: 6 Overpowered Characters That NEED Nerfs":

I wish there was a laugh react

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

Captain

Oh, and Thinkaman raised the question of "how do you solve the discrepency between the results gets in low level play vs high level play", and I think there's a good answer to this - Significantly reduce the effectiveness of mashing vs the bury effect. Maybe make it so that with optimal mash, you escape like 25% faster than with no mash, rather than like 1000% faster. This might instantly make him super OP because the Dthrow -> Fsmash combo would start to be legitimately inescapable starting at like 60%, if this is the case, reduce base bury duration until it starts to work at the percentage you would consider "optimal". In general I've always felt like mashing to escape moves is a dumb mechanic anyway, it's not like it involves any degree of skill or anything. They could remove it entirely and I don't think it would ever be missed by anyone.

I agree, I think that the whole mashing to escape burying mechanic both feels bad and introduces balance issues. Playing a friendly where you don't feel like abusing your controller to escape a bury so you just take it on the chin feels meh.

 

[KirbySquad101]

This is true. I don’t understand Pit’s lack of representation, he’s a good character. At least Ness will always have his dedicated mains that are dominant with him and even though I think he deserves more play because he’s really good in this game so far and I can see him placing even better in majors in the future. I do feel bad for characters like Pit who is definitely a good character with a lot of potential

Kirby isn’t gonna see representation until people think they can actually win with him and I don’t see that happening in Ultimate. It’s unfortunate that he’s been so bad ever since Melee. There’s a lot they can do with the character and he can be fun to play. I think Sakurai seriously nerfs Kirby on purpose to seem “unbiased”

What sucks about Pit currently is that his two best representatives from Smash 4 haven't been representing him in Ultimate; Nairo moved on to Palutena and Lucina, and from what I can tell, Earth hasn't made any kind of presence in Ultimate as of yet. A lot of his problems seem to have been addressed, mainly his KO power, but I imagine there just isn't much incentive to pick up on him.

As for Kirby, weeellll, he was decent in Brawl for the most part; that aside, I'm not sure if it's favoritism going on here. I mean, Sakurai DID make him the only character to survive in the prologue of WoL, so I don't think he's afraid of being accused of being biased or anything. He was buffed in Ultimate, but he kind of needed a major overhaul to work in this game the same way Palutena, Mii Gunner, and Mii Swordfighter got one. Instead, he mostly got buffs that can be best summed up as... "neat". I want to give the developers the benefit of the doubt and say that they didn't really know how to make him better from Smash 4 to Ultimate; either that, or they don't really know what they want to do with him atm.

 

[Frihetsanka]

[...]from what I can tell, Earth hasn't made any kind of presence in Ultimate as of yet.

Earth was one of the competitive player that played a part in the development of Ultimate (potentially as a playtester), alongside 9B, aMSa, and Ranai. This might mean that these players are barred from entering tournaments for a while due to conflict of interests.

 

[MG_3989]

What sucks about Pit currently is that his two best representatives from Smash 4 haven't been representing him in Ultimate; Nairo moved on to Palutena and Lucina, and from what I can tell, Earth hasn't made any kind of presence in Ultimate as of yet. A lot of his problems seem to have been addressed, mainly his KO power, but I imagine there just isn't much incentive to pick up on him.

As for Kirby, weeellll, he was decent in Brawl for the most part; that aside, I'm not sure if it's favoritism going on here. I mean, Sakurai DID make him the only character to survive in the prologue of WoL, so I don't think he's afraid of being accused of being biased or anything. He was buffed in Ultimate, but he kind of needed a major overhaul to work in this game the same way Palutena, Mii Gunner, and Mii Swordfighter got one. Instead, he mostly got buffs that can be best summed up as... "neat". I want to give the developers the benefit of the doubt and say that they didn't really know how to make him better from Smash 4 to Ultimate; either that, or they don't really know what they want to do with him atm.

Hopefully Pit will get more representation as the game evolves, it’s still early. I think the problem is people see Pit as kind of a vanilla and “boring” character. I don’t think he is but it seems like the perception

I think changing brick and hammer into different moves would greatly help Kirby. Brick gets punished often, a good dair would be much better and hammer rarely hits a good player and is kind of redundant with side smash. I don’t know what I’d replace them with but they don’t seem like good moves. He also needs an air speed buff so he can effectively edgeguard the way Jiggs does. I honestly don’t know that much about Kirby I just know he’s lacking a lot of tools

Earth was one of the competitive player that played a part in the development of Ultimate (potentially as a playtester), alongside 9B, aMSa, and Ranai. This might mean that these players are barred from entering tournaments for a while due to conflict of interests.

I heard every pro that worked on balance is barred from attending tournaments

 

[Zinith]

Comparatively, we're seeing a striking under-representation of

Deeply tragic

 

[Thinkaman]

Hopefully Pit will get more representation as the game evolves, it’s still early. I think the problem is people see Pit as kind of a vanilla and “boring” character. I don’t think he is but it seems like the perception

Pit is the most vanilla, most average, most "Smash" Smash character. It feels like he was raised in a test tube to be in Smash, because he was.

He is right in the middle of the pack in pretty much any regard you can think of, with very fast smashes being the only standout. But this means no one has any motivation to pick him up (what matchups does a Pit secondary solve?), and multiple jumps + controllable arrows are unusual mechanics that require investing Pit-specific practice to be comparable to Earth.

Bottom line: I still say Pit seems good, but acknowledge that no one really has an particular reason to play him.

I heard every pro that worked on balance is barred from attending tournaments

I mean, I'd hope so? I don't know of any game or sport where the people calling the shots (at any level above local TO) are permitted to play for the pot.

I do hope we get some streamed exhibition matches of these 4 players though, rather than sacrificing them completely.

 

[MG_3989]

Hopefully Pit will get more representation as the game evolves, it’s still early. I think the problem is people see Pit as kind of a vanilla and “boring” character. I don’t think he is but it seems like the perception

I think changing brick and hammer into different moves would greatly help Kirby. Brick gets punished often, a good dair would be much better and hammer rarely hits a good player and is kind of redundant with side smash. I don’t know what I’d replace them with but they don’t seem like good moves. He also needs an air speed buff so he can effectively edgeguard the way Jiggs does. I honestly don’t know that much about Kirby I just know he’s lacking a lot of tools

I mean, I'd hope so? I don't know of any game or sport where the people calling the shots (at any level above local TO) are permitted to play for the pot.

I do hope we get some streamed exhibition matches of these 4 players though, rather than sacrificing them completely.

I agree that they definitely should be barred from tournament competition. It wouldn’t be fair if they weren’t

I wonder why they did it though. That’s a whole lot to give up to work on balancing the game. I don’t know how much or if they were even paid. Maybe they were tired of competing anyway and just wanted to see the best Smash game possible so they decided to make the sacrifice

 

[krazySyko]

Thinkaman On a super minor pit related note regarding your genesis character list, len has definitely been using a bit of Dark Pit , seemingly much more than Pit from searching for recent vids of him.

 

[Guido65]

What sucks about Pit currently is that his two best representatives from Smash 4 haven't been representing him in Ultimate; Nairo moved on to Palutena and Lucina, and from what I can tell, Earth hasn't made any kind of presence in Ultimate as of yet. A lot of his problems seem to have been addressed, mainly his KO power, but I imagine there just isn't much incentive to pick up on him.

As for Kirby, weeellll, he was decent in Brawl for the most part; that aside, I'm not sure if it's favoritism going on here. I mean, Sakurai DID make him the only character to survive in the prologue of WoL, so I don't think he's afraid of being accused of being biased or anything. He was buffed in Ultimate, but he kind of needed a major overhaul to work in this game the same way Palutena, Mii Gunner, and Mii Swordfighter got one. Instead, he mostly got buffs that can be best summed up as... "neat". I want to give the developers the benefit of the doubt and say that they didn't really know how to make him better from Smash 4 to Ultimate; either that, or they don't really know what they want to do with him atm.

I don't think mii swordfighter got a major overhaul. He really just got his biggest flaws from smash 4 mostly removed(jumpsquat, less than average mobility, heavy landing lag on some moves, some moves not working Like up smash, very weak recovery). Now he is properly tuned plus he's in a game that plays to his strengths.

 

[KirbySquad101]

That would be a feasible explanation for Earth not being able to participate in tournaments; that said, that's not very good news for Pit, and could be partly why there's even less interest to play him.

I would say Pit could have a certain niche as a possible easy-to-play pocket character, but Lucina seems to have a monopoly over the "easy-to-play pocket character" thing at the moment.

 

[MG_3989]

That would be a feasible explanation for Earth not being able to participate in tournaments; that said, that's not very good news for Pit, and could be partly why there's even less interest to play him.

I would say Pit could have a certain niche as a possible easy-to-play pocket character, but Lucina seems to have a monopoly over the "easy-to-play pocket character" thing at the moment.

Lucina, Ike, and Cloud arejust better in every way as pocket characters that are pretty easy to play. Pit just doesn’t have a unique niche in Smash except for people who loved Kid Icarus I guess. I also don’t find him fun to play at all and I think a lot of people agree (not hating on the character my personal opinion. I’m sure some people love playing him)

 

[Emblem Lord]

lol.

My post years ago about Pit being boring AF still applies.

Wit his basic angel wing havin self

 

[MG_3989]

lol.

My post years ago about Pit being boring AF still applies.

Wit his basic angel wing havin self

If I had to main Pit I would straight up stop playing Smash probably. He’s so vanilla and not fun. He’s literally the definition of average

 

[Thinkaman]

I regret starting a Pit diss track; let's get back to matchup, trends, and baseless patch speculation.

 

[Nobie]

On very rare occasions Ranai and Earth have announced items-on lobbies but I haven't been able to catch any. I do wonder if they give any insight into how they'd do if given the chance to enter tournaments.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I regret starting a Pit diss track; let's get back to matchup, trends, and baseless patch speculation.

Speaking of trends. I would not expect the trend to be ending time soon (Unless he gets nerfed in the upcoming 2.0.0 patch)
ZeRo made an analysis vid on wolf saying that he is basically his main at this point and he has been apparently beating many top players with him.
ZeRo went on to saying what quite a few people think about Wolf in that he reminds him about Smash 4 Sheik..and that Wolf is top-tier AND easy to use.


https://youtu.be/80fhKndTXGU

 

[Jgod]

.

I think changing brick and hammer into different moves would greatly help Kirby. Brick gets punished often, a good dair would be much better and hammer rarely hits a good player and is kind of redundant with side smash. I don’t know what I’d replace them with but they don’t seem like good moves. He also needs an air speed buff so he can effectively edgeguard the way Jiggs does. I honestly don’t know that much about Kirby I just know he’s lacking a lot of tools


I heard every pro that worked on balance is barred from attending tournaments

I wouldn't say Kirby is lacking tools, in that his tools just are underwhelming. I'm being pedantic though.

The point isn't to make Kirby like Jiggles. Kirby is supposed to have a stronger ground-game than Jigglypuff which frankly is part of the problem. Mac has this issue too where you're going "my d-tilt should be better but it isn't". Kirby/Mac, their reward isn't as good given well the things the weaknesses/shortcomings they are being designed to have
Kirby is light he is a "low hp" character, with stubby (but fast) grounded normals and some serviceable (but not particularly quick) aerials.
Low hp, low range...and yet all his specials are slow as piss and his power is just half inch short of where it could be.

Imo the devs know Copy/inhale should be defining hence it has that 1.2x power boost and yet it was lazy. He loses his copy abilities too easily and copy is already a pain to land outside of a FFA. Copying crap like Falcon Punch is pointless but is relevant to the discussion given that there's a difference in what copy does in a falcon MU vs against Sheik or Samus for example. Stone doesn't threaten shield like it used to which is just another problem, because it even further reduces Kirby's ability to land when you have to give him even less respect. Even when you use it to edgeguard at the angle it sends, it doesn't exactly gimp, and it simultaneously lacks the KO power you would expect it to. Funny enough you'd see stone be more relevant vs Falcon or Ganondorf, but stone also doesn't have the KO power you expect it to have, and you might as well d-air half the time, and smile if you get a f-air in.
Kirby's toolset is fine, he doesn't need new moves. He needs his moves to give more reward and/or be less punishing.

I don't think there's anything wrong with what he is supposed to be, so long as it well actually does work.

 

[TTTTTsd]

While I'm not that optimistic, I'll reiterate that I think he has a much higher floor than past bad characters and that we are probably having, to some extent, a knee jerk biased opinion against him due to the skill skew. (Especially when talking about how bad K. Rool can be taken as some sort of "I'm not one of those baddies" swagger)

I do love those d-throw mixups when I play him!



While I'm Team Anti-Mashing, I'm not sure "just give the heavies throw kill-confirms!" proved to be an enjoyable solution in Smash 4. (It was a solution though, certainly...)

K. Rool is a character that I think is best summed up as "remarkably ok." From playing him a lot I can say he doesn't really feel terribly awful once you really simplify how you play and base it around just....really basic fundamentals and a lot less button pressing than the rest of the cast.

He doesn't feel like the average Smash 4 low tier but I do agree he seems relatively kinda weak, but there's a lot of really weird potential I see in him. Not potential to shoot up to godlike or anything but, there's a lot to look at.

The Frame 4 jab is really nice too I can't really be dishonest about that. In general I've found that he revolves a lot around placing crown smartly and using the frame advantage it can give you when placed nicely to stick out a blunderbuss fireball or move forward. His edgeguarding is where I think he ends up being strongest because he has a really good back air (its one of those moves that works well because its vastly slower than his other aerials, meaning its an automatic timing mixup ala Cloud Fair vs Cloud Nair or the likes) and just can generally assert himself really deep offstage as long as you don't Dair too low or use Uair at all.

 

[Terotrous]

I mean, I'd hope so? I don't know of any game or sport where the people calling the shots (at any level above local TO) are permitted to play for the pot.

I don't agree, I mean, how are they going to provide accurate insight into the competitive side of the game if they've stopped engaging with it? Ideally we want them to have as much experience (and thus knowledge) about the game as possible. Obviously they need to remain objective, no "my character struggles with this matchup so we need to nerf this character into the ground", but that's why you don't leave the balancing up to just one person. Hopefully when you have a group they can collectively figure out what's a real balancing concern and what's just salt.

Also, I've seen instances of people who were playtesters playing in tournaments. Arcsys is fairly famous for it, with some of their staff entering tournaments for their games, particularly the ones they themselves host (albeit usually not making it terribly far), and you also often see this with indie fighters as well, which is probably somewhat unavoidable due to their smaller communities.

 

[Yonder]

Thinkaman On a super minor pit related note regarding your genesis character list, len has definitely been using a bit of Dark Pit , seemingly much more than Pit from searching for recent vids of him.

Len believes Dark Pit is better due to his arrows and side b being better in ultimate, from what he's said to me.

 

[Thinkaman]

I don't agree, I mean, how are they going to provide accurate insight into the competitive side of the game if they've stopped engaging with it?

I mean, they should play as much as possible, no doubt. But showing up at grassroots events trying to take the pot in the game you made is definitely a bad look.

 

[MG_3989]

.

I wouldn't say Kirby is lacking tools, in that his tools just are underwhelming. I'm being pedantic though.

The point isn't to make Kirby like Jiggles. Kirby is supposed to have a stronger ground-game than Jigglypuff which frankly is part of the problem. Mac has this issue too where you're going "my d-tilt should be better but it isn't". Kirby/Mac, their reward isn't as good given well the things the weaknesses/shortcomings they are being designed to have
Kirby is light he is a "low hp" character, with stubby (but fast) grounded normals and some serviceable (but not particularly quick) aerials.
Low hp, low range...and yet all his specials are slow as piss and his power is just half inch short of where it could be.

Imo the devs know Copy/inhale should be defining hence it has that 1.2x power boost and yet it was lazy. He loses his copy abilities too easily and copy is already a pain to land outside of a FFA. Copying crap like Falcon Punch is pointless but is relevant to the discussion given that there's a difference in what copy does in a falcon MU vs against Sheik or Samus for example. Stone doesn't threaten shield like it used to which is just another problem, because it even further reduces Kirby's ability to land when you have to give him even less respect. Even when you use it to edgeguard at the angle it sends, it doesn't exactly gimp, and it simultaneously lacks the KO power you would expect it to. Funny enough you'd see stone be more relevant vs Falcon or Ganondorf, but stone also doesn't have the KO power you expect it to have, and you might as well d-air half the time, and smile if you get a f-air in.
Kirby's toolset is fine, he doesn't need new moves. He needs his moves to give more reward and/or be less punishing.

I don't think there's anything wrong with what he is supposed to be, so long as it well actually does work.

And that’s exactly the problem. It doesn’t work and it hasn’t worked for four games which is why I would think about changing the character archetype at this point because they obviously can’t get this one right. Maybe they’ll surprise me with buffs that make Kirby viable but I doubt it

On another note, what do you guys thing of Megaman? I don’t know a lot about him but he seems really good. Leaf Shield is ridiculous. Pellets rack damage quick. Metal Blade is a great move. His aerials are really good, especially fair which is a phenomenal edge guarding move and he’s powerful and I think pretty heavy. What’s his place in the meta right now?