Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[meleebrawler]

I can't help but agree with KuroganeHammer when I see the thing about Sakurai regretting listening to the internet with regard to patches.

weird that he expresses regrets on this when I think Smash 4's balance patches were quite well done. Pretty much every nerf/buff was absolutely deserved.

— Kurogane Hammer (@KuroganeHammer) January 21, 2019

Obviously there were bad decisions peppered in there throughout (epic greninja meme hehexd, some of the nerfs to bad characters, not making a second bayo nerf patch [but that gets a pass because they were just sick of working on the damn game]) but I hope the design philosophy isn't drastically changed when approaching Ultimate seeing as the changes made to Sm4sh were almost all tasteful and well-implemented. There were good buffs (the ones to Mewtwo and Marthcina for instance, turning weaker chars into threats with minor tweaks) and good nerfs (namely Diddy and Meta Knight) and few objectively bad decisions. Good thing NAMCO mostly handles the balance (unless that's an urban legend?) and there probably isn't one person with undue influence over the process. I agree with the sentiment from everyone else that no top tier in Ultimate needs real nerfs at the moment and that balance changes should purely be done to buff bad characters/as a side effect of bugfixes if at all right now. As we've belabored on previous pages, every top tier in Ultimate has some sort of clear-cut weakness that holds them back, and none of them are overly 'oppressive' upon the cast as a whole.

I think the standout example of a bad internet call would have been Little Mac. Had one of the lowest winrates staring them in the face, yet chose to listen to those seeking to simply curb his usage above all else.

At least in Ultimate, what character(s) are popular online are constantly shifting.

 

[J0eyboi]

Obviously there were bad decisions peppered in there throughout (epic greninja meme hehexd, some of the nerfs to bad characters

As I've mentioned before, bad decisions like these basically only happened early in Smash 4. Later, they were absent. Given that, and that Sakurai regrets listening to the internet, it's not exactly hard to imagine why those characters got nerfed. I wouldn't be surprised if the balance team stopped paying attention to social media complaints long before they ended development on 4.

In other words, I think Sakurai may know what he's talking about when he says listening to the internet is a bad idea.

 

[KakuCP9]

Ike has nair > aether at the ledge.

Why am I not surprised. Of course it would be from his nair, why wouldn't it be?

This isn't meant as a complaint, I doubt its practical enough to be a problem.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Why am I not surprised. Of course it would be from his nair, why wouldn't it be?

This isn't meant as a complaint, I doubt its practical enough to be a problem.

Yeaaaah its not what I would exactly call consistent... if it works at all really that's the first I've ever heard of it. Window for it would be really small. Smaller than the Chromcide window.

Frankly though... I don't have a problem with either suicide option existing. Its already proven to not be a reliable strategy to focus around given the lack of games ending with 3 Chromcides in tournament. Its a nice little surprise option against people who forget about it, but its still high risk because if you're slightly off you just gave the opponent a stock for free.

 

[ShneeOscar]

Just to confirm: it's not possible to spike your opinion with Chrom's Up B and still land on the stage and survive, right?

 

[Captain Sa10]

Yeaaaah its not what I would exactly call consistent... if it works at all really that's the first I've ever heard of it. Window for it would be really small. Smaller than the Chromcide window.

Frankly though... I don't have a problem with either suicide option existing. Its already proven to not be a reliable strategy to focus around given the lack of games ending with 3 Chromcides in tournament. Its a nice little surprise option against people who forget about it, but its still high risk because if you're slightly off you just gave the opponent a stock for free.

It works consistently at low percents. Even on Pichu just like Chrom. Reason it hasn’t been heard of because folks haven’t even really messed around enough to look at most characters fully(most are just defaulting to what the next guy is doing).

But I also agree that it’s really not that big of a deal for either.

 

[Cereal Bawks]

Yeaaaah its not what I would exactly call consistent... if it works at all really that's the first I've ever heard of it. Window for it would be really small. Smaller than the Chromcide window.

Frankly though... I don't have a problem with either suicide option existing. Its already proven to not be a reliable strategy to focus around given the lack of games ending with 3 Chromcides in tournament. Its a nice little surprise option against people who forget about it, but its still high risk because if you're slightly off you just gave the opponent a stock for free.

MKLeo did it twice at Glitch 6.

Just to confirm: it's not possible to spike your opinion with Chrom's Up B and still land on the stage and survive, right?

I've done that before with Ike (specifically from recovering and grabbing the ledge), so it should work with Chrom's.

 

[ShneeOscar]

I've done that before with Ike (specifically from recovering and grabbing the ledge), so it should work with Chrom's.

As long as you have to jump off stage first to get it I guess it's not that different from other spikes. I'm mostly worried about people using it while standing onstage and catching someone recovering high.

 

[MG_3989]

As long as you have to jump off stage first to get it I guess it's not that different from other spikes. I'm mostly worried about people using it while standing onstage and catching someone recovering high.

Yeah but Chrom can still land on the stage in that instance which wouldn’t complete the suicide and the other character still has an air dodge to avoid it like any other spike. If it catches somebody high it’s just a spike that starts with them above you and not you above them and I don’t see a problem with that

 

[Nidtendofreak]

It works consistently at low percents. Even on Pichu just like Chrom. Reason it hasn’t been heard of because folks haven’t even really messed around enough to look at most characters fully(most are just defaulting to what the next guy is doing).

But I also agree that it’s really not that big of a deal for either.

Consistent in like, how often you can do it. I guess I should have been more clear. Chrom's is a lot more consistent to pull off in that you can carry somebody off stage safely and then combo into it making it a potential option from almost anywhere at low percents. With Ike you pretty much have to land Nair in a small area at fairly low percents and there's no real way to force it.

Hadn't have a chance to go over the Glitch VODs yet though, so the fact MKLeo did it is news to me.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I think the standout example of a bad internet call would have been Little Mac. Had one of the lowest winrates staring them in the face, yet chose to listen to those seeking to simply curb his usage above all else.

Doesn't really help that For Glory was Omegas only, which greatly benefited Little Mac. One of Little Mac's greatest flaw is how easy it is to camp him on many of the stages, something he didn't have to deal with on Omegas. In Ultimate, at least we'll be getting more stage variety in Elite (well, I guess we'll be getting Battlefield forms instead of Omegas, but at least Battlefield is more balanced than Omegas).

I do agree that they shouldn't be listening to the Internet much, especially when it comes to nerfs.

Speaking of Little Mac, the common consensus seems to be that he's one of the worst characters in the game. Anyone here who disagrees? Do you think Little Mac might actually be decent?

 

[meleebrawler]

Doesn't really help that For Glory was Omegas only, which greatly benefited Little Mac. One of Little Mac's greatest flaw is how easy it is to camp him on many of the stages, something he didn't have to deal with on Omegas. In Ultimate, at least we'll be getting more stage variety in Elite (well, I guess we'll be getting Battlefield forms instead of Omegas, but at least Battlefield is more balanced than Omegas).

I do agree that they shouldn't be listening to the Internet much, especially when it comes to nerfs.

Speaking of Little Mac, the common consensus seems to be that he's one of the worst characters in the game. Anyone here who disagrees? Do you think Little Mac might actually be decent?

They could improve him greatly if they only made his air game comparatively weak (compared to his ground game) instead of actually pathetic, which would still preserve his identity. It's the root of all his platform camping woes; if he had aerials with semi-decent damage maybe he wouldn't need to chase his opponent that much...

 

[MG_3989]

Just wanted to stop by to say I’ve been watching Donkey Kong videos and playing my friend who mains him and he’s an absolute menace. He’s got sword character range if not better, he’s insanely strong, and he’s fast

There’s been so many times when I’ve thought I’ve had everything under control vs. DK and then all of the sudden he goes on advantage and completely turns the tide of the game in a way I don’t think any other character does. It just feels so oppressive and he can kill you so fast. You make one spacing mistake or wrong read and that’s it for your stock against a good DK. And this isn’t just happening to me against my friends, I’ve seen a ton of pros doing it too

Now I may be overrating him but I think he might be a borderline top tier character. I know he’s a heavy and combo food who can have trouble with zoners (he sure does close distance fast though) but he has so many positives. I never realized how good he was before (I hadn’t seen Tweek play him because I didn’t watch Glitch but I saw some matches on YouTube and holy****)

 

[Captain Sa10]

Consistent in like, how often you can do it. I guess I should have been more clear. Chrom's is a lot more consistent to pull off in that you can carry somebody off stage safely and then combo into it making it a potential option from almost anywhere at low percents. With Ike you pretty much have to land Nair in a small area at fairly low percents and there's no real way to force it.

Hadn't have a chance to go over the Glitch VODs yet though, so the fact MKLeo did it is news to me.

Honestly that seems more of a character by character basis and less so a defining reason as to why it’s any less useful. I would expect Chrom to be able to convert it easier into a kill just based of the nature of the character; like wise for Ike being slower and less combo heavy is more likey to need mixups in order to threaten said situation. Which that’s all there needs to be is the threat of said possibility(which is all it is for both of them).

Essentially, if two characters have a similar tool and both use said tool differently it doesn’t take away the viability. It’s just another tool in that characters kit that they can use for different situations.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Now I may be overrating him but I think he might be a borderline top tier character. I know he’s a heavy and combo food who can have trouble with zoners (he sure does close distance fast though) but he has so many positives. I never realized how good he was before (I hadn’t seen Tweek play him because I didn’t watch Glitch but I saw some matches on YouTube and holy****)

While Donkey Kong might be better than ever before, he still has similar flaws to Smash 4, namely weak landing options and he also struggles to get off of ledge. In addition to this, aerial spinning kong (his up-B) got nerfed, making him easier to edgeguard. Someone like Pikachu or Pichu or Inkling should be able to edgeguard him quite well. He's probably going to be a mid tier (perhaps high-mid tier) character with some scary strengths but significant flaws, and he could still be a pretty good counter-pick character.

 

[MG_3989]

While Donkey Kong might be better than ever before, he still has similar flaws to Smash 4, namely weak landing options and he also struggles to get off of ledge. In addition to this, aerial spinning kong (his up-B) got nerfed, making him easier to edgeguard. Someone like Pikachu or Pichu or Inkling should be able to edgeguard him quite well. He's probably going to be a mid tier (perhaps high-mid tier) character with some scary strengths but significant flaws, and he could still be a pretty good counter-pick character.

I can definitely see him having trouble with characters like Pikachu, Pichu, and Inkling as well as Ness and some of the sword characters and zoners

The thing is in the right hands he can snowball so fast (even against his weaker matchups) and has the ability to win any match and make come backs. Even with characters like Pikachu, Pichu, Inkling, Ness, Ylink, Wolf, Samus, etc... who should beat him on paper he has the ability to close distance so fast and turn one mistake into a stock off of as little as 3 or 4 hits sometimes which always keeps him in the game.

I was definitely overrating him when I said borderline top tier but he definitely has the ability to beat any character in the game. I know he gets juggled easily and he’s combo food for a lot of characters but his ability to snowball can even create a psychological advantage (and I know physiological advantages don’t matter in tier lists). I just didn’t realize how good of a character he was because I generally don’t give heavies a second thought and while he might not be the best in the game he’ll always be scary to go up against

 

[Rizen]

The thing is in the right hands he can snowball so fast (even against his weaker matchups) and has the ability to win any match and make come backs. Even with characters like Pikachu, Pichu, Inkling, Ness, Ylink, Wolf, Samus, etc... who should beat him on paper he has the ability to close distance so fast and turn one mistake into a stock off of as little as 3 or 4 hits sometimes which always keeps him in the game.

I was definitely overrating him when I said borderline top tier but he definitely has the ability to beat any character in the game. I know he gets juggled easily and he’s combo food for a lot of characters but his ability to snowball can even create a psychological advantage (and I know physiological advantages don’t matter in tier lists). I just didn’t realize how good of a character he was because I generally don’t give heavies a second thought and while he might not be the best in the game he’ll always be scary to go up against

I played the / MU recently in bracket and imo it's at least +1 YL. YL should strike/ban small stages like Lylat and BF and DK strikes huge stages like TnC and FD. DK's the best of the super heavyweights but still has their flaws of getting walled and comboed. As fast as DK can turn a game around, he gets wrecked in disadvantage at least as much. He doesn't have a good answer to zoning aside from patient approaches and therefor doesn't control the match; especially if he's playing from behind. It seems like he retains the weakness of Bair being his best aerial poke but it's more complicated to land than if he had the same as Fair. To DK's credit, he has good buttons, Bair's scary offstage, ground spinning kong is like a counter/kill move by the ledge, and he has any number of good options when he gets in.

 

[MG_3989]

I played the / MU recently and imo it's at least +1 YL. DK's the best of the super heavyweights but still has their flaws of getting walled and comboed. As fast as DK can turn a game around, he gets wrecked in disadvantage at least as much. He doesn't have a good answer to zoning aside from patient approaches and therefor doesn't control the match; especially if he's playing from behind. It seems like he retains the weakness of Bair being his best aerial poke but it's more complicated to land than if he had the same as Fair. To DK's credit, he has good buttons, Bair's scary offstage, ground spinning kong is like a counter/kill move by the ledge, and he has any number of good options when he gets in.

Yeah I get that and I’m not saying the Ylink matchup is easy at all and he’s at disadvantage almost all match. The thing is if he can’t get advantage three times he may win. Patience is definitely key in matchups like that and Ylink will probably win if they’re the better player

I think among super heavies DK has the best chance to win these kind of matchups tho. He closes ground so fast and he has that sword like range. He has his throw combos that rack up damage super fast and two spikes off stage that are easy to land and kill at like 40% plus his uair to juggle and kill. Of course he has the super heavy weight problem of being combo food and having bad disadvantage and landing options (I’ve probably racked up close to 100% on my friend with solely PK Thunders and uairs the whole time not letting him touch the ground but I do that on all heavies). He just seems like the scariest and most viable of the heavies to me even if he’s not high tier

 

[Browny]

For those who care, the community has been doing a lot of labbing on revenge set ups. It's intriguing to watch top players use him randomly and do surprisingly well, despite making no use at all of some pretty powerful revenge shield break combos. I believe the character has a lot of room for optimisation and development, it will just take time for players to be able to quickly identify the true shield break set ups in-game as they aren't always something you can plan for.

For example I posted here before about how darkest lariat on block is a true shield lock/break and how revenge dtilt -> lariat is another shieldlock, sheildbreak combo. Now we've found out that a properly spaced (hit on the last possible frame of the sweetspot) revenge boosted dash attack on shield is +1, which means unless parried or a character has a frame 3 or less upb oos (which is like dr mario, mario and G&W), they are locked and going to get their shield broken, or poked with a 60%+ hit that can KO. Then theres ftilt on block which if the enemy is up against the ledge or on a platform and no where to shield DI away, is heavily postive and an instant dash attack is once again going to beat out almost all options that characters have so they either cop the hit which will kill very early at a ledge, or get shield broken.

This might all seem simple to deal with, 'just dont block' but the problem is revenge boosted moves are doing so much damage, they will just plow through other attacks and win a trade, or both characters recoil and that leaves the enemy in incineroars face and darkest lariat is once again likely going to bet all options that characters have.

Revenge's counter is also +12 on hit on grounded attacks and with a minimum of 5 frames to initiate the dash attack, that means it comes in on frame 13. So an enemy either needs a 1-frame aerial to counter it, or must jump away. Now the enemy is without a jump and you can shark their landing with his really good uair. It really does seem like an extremely good risk-reward ratio to just always go for dash attack out of counter since if it hits, its really powerful and the only escape puts the enemy in disadvantage.

So yeah, once people manage to implement these revenge tricks into their game he's going to get better. Having a dash attack be +1 on block is actually ridiculous.

Also;

Can we not turn “placebo” into a buzzword? There’s enough buzzwords in the Smash community already; I literally just read 5 posts in this page with that word and I’m already sick of it lol.

Placebo is not a buzzword, it was perfectly legitimate in its usage.

 

[Aaron1997]

Genesis 6 Top 128 Seeding (Subject to change)


https://smash.gg/tournament/genesis-6/events/smash-for-switch-singles/standings

1: Tweek
2: MKLeo
3: Nairo
4: zackray
5: Dabuz
6: Light
7: Samsora
8: Shuton
9: VoiD
10: Salem
11: Larry Lurr
12: Cosmos
13: Marss
14: tamim
15: ESAM
16: Ally
17: WaDi
18: Mr. R
19: Nietono
20: MVD
21: Abadango
22: Umeki
23: Javi
24: Maister
25: Sinji
26: ANTi
27: SDX
28: Fatality
29: Captain Zack
30: MuteAce
31: Yeti
32: ZD
33: 8BitMan
34: Eon
35: Glutonny
36: Captain L
37: Myran
38: Zenyou
39: Nicko
40: Elegant
41: MattyG
42: Stroder
43: Mr E
44: Konga
45: SlayerZ
46: Big D
47: Lima
48: Dark Wizzy
49: 6WX
50: Charliedaking
51: BestNess
52: Shogun
53: Pandarian
54: NAKAT
55: Trevonte
56: Mew2King
57: ImHip
58: FOW
59: Teb
60: Lui$
61: Sonido
62: False
63: Blank
64: Ki
65: Dyr
66: Sparg0
67: Legit
68: Shaky
69: Rain
70: Armando
71: Klaatu
72: Plup
73: Locus
74: Ned
75: Xzax
76: VaLoR
77: Regi Shikimi
78: Leffen
79: Kobe
80: Wizzrobe
81: Hungrybox
82: Rags
83: Armada
84: Akashic
85: Rideae
86: K9sbruce
87: Tyrant
88: Prodigy
89: Mikee
90: twerkmastr
91: TLTC
92: MrConCon
93: Karna
94: Taternator
95: Seagull Joe
96: Rice
97: Len
98: Magister
99: 3xA
100: Diablo
101; ven
102: PiXL
103: Sharpy
104: Sonix
105: saj.
106: Z
107: Rich Brown
108: NovaPixl
109: Ez
110: Soronie
111: Epic Gabriel
112: Brian
113: Von
114: Shoe
115: Apa~
116: Ryo
117: Snoop
118: Lemmon
119: Focus
120: Duwang
121: Jtails
122: Master Raven
123: Ksev
124: Silent Rain
125: C. Falcon
126: Mang0
127: Zex
128: Nitro

 

[MG_3989]

That’s disappointing to only see Jtails and FOW’s Ness in the top 128. I hope more people start playing him as Ultimate evolves and his meta can develop further. Of course he’s gonna drop out of high tier if nobody plays him but he’s really good this game and maybe some more pros will be willing to test him out

 

[webbedspace]

Err, you've missed both BestNess #51 and Shaky #68. Things aren't that bad yet.

No, the real crisis is much worse: zero Isabelles. I mean, I know we don't want her to get hurt, but this is ridiculous. (More seriously, there's no Ryus either, and he doesn't seem the character to be that unpopular, command inputs aside.)

 

[The_Bookworm]

That’s disappointing to only see Jtails and FOW’s Ness in the top 128. I hope more people start playing him as Ultimate evolves and his meta can develop further. Of course he’s gonna drop out of high tier if nobody plays him but he’s really good this game and maybe some more pros will be willing to test him out

They haven't really been in the big events yet, and BestNess and Shaky are also ranked high.

Err, you've missed both BestNess #51 and Shaky #68. Things aren't that bad yet.

No, the real crisis is much worse: zero Isabelles. I mean, I know we don't want her to get hurt, but this is ridiculous. (More seriously, there's no Ryus either, and he doesn't seem the character to be that unpopular, command inputs aside.)

None of the top Ryu/Ken players haven't really participated in this event. Isabelle is a rare character to begin with, so it is not too surprising to see her not there.

 

[MG_3989]

Err, you've missed both BestNess #51 and Shaky #68. Things aren't that bad yet.

No, the real crisis is much worse: zero Isabelles. I mean, I know we don't want her to get hurt, but this is ridiculous. (More seriously, there's no Ryus either, and he doesn't seem the character to be that unpopular, command inputs aside.)

Oh word, glad they’re in there too but I still wanna see more. He’s always an underplayed character and he plays awesome in Ultimate. I want him to stay high tier and have his meta develop. Maybe it won’t be like Smash 4 and he’ll actually grow in popularity instead of shrink

The difference between Ness and Isabelle is Ness is good so I don’t see a lot of people picking up Isabelle in a serious major

 

[Allkings]

only one corrin (still nice to see Cosmos playing her) that is sad she really was butchered, no?

edit: i see that mario is still popular?(since many said that he is weak in this game) and bayo in top 15 (stil good or because she is little different (like M2) nobody play her?)

 

[The_Bookworm]

only one corrin (still nice to see Cosmos playing her) that is sad she really was butchered, no?

edit: i see that mario is still popular?(since many said that he is weak in this game) and bayo in top 15 (stil good or because she is little different (like M2) nobody play her?)

Mario is still rocking. tamim being seeded that high is mostly carried by his recent performance in Glitch. The Bayo players are also doing well in local events, where Bayo can best abuse the opponent's lack of knowledge on how to deal with her combos and/or opponent's mistakes.

 

[Nekoo]

Re: Chrom's Up-B / Chromcide Discussion.

Gotta give my two cents about whenever the move must be nerfed or not. Except Bias because I play Chrom/s

Nerfing Chrom's Up-B to make him die First is a terrible balance idea. As it ruin the whole mechanism and design of the move.

Chrom, by himself, was designed as the Pinnacle peak of glasscanon. A Combo heavy Characters who don't have the Reverse Tip mechanism of Roy. At what price?

The price of having an "abyssimal" recovery making him one of the easiest Characters to gimp and kill with the Nerf of the overall defensive option off-stage, lag of directional air-dodge and Chrom lack of horizontal recovery. Any Characters with a counter, projectile or Spike kill him at any % the moment Chrom is off-stage.

Knowing this the developers did something smart, something to give a way for Chrom to get a minimum of respect off-stage.

Killing his enemy first and taking him down with him, possibly stealing a stock of the opponent is being too greedy.

That design philosophy is easy to be seen with the Armor that Chrom have during the first Swing to drag the enemy with him, alongside the unique Up-B voice clip where Chrom himself claim that he'll kill the enemy.

The move leading to combo at 0% still exist for the same purpose. The opponent need to show respect to Chrom and his recovery, and the Chrom player need to respect his enemy too as failing/misstiming the move might lead to a death without any stock-trade

TL;DR: Removing or Nerfing the Chromcide or Chrom Killing the opponent first goes against the design philosophy and function of the move itself as it was a way to "patch-up" Chrom in a game with next to no defensive option off-stage.
Please, think about why X happens instead of going for X should be removed

 

[Thinkaman]

Shoutouts to Microsoft Excel:

10:
9:
8: (+ )
6:
5:
4: (+)
3:
2:
1:
0:

"Mains only" (first listed character):
6: (+)
5:
4:
3: (+)
2:
1:
0:

Counting PT as 1, that's 186 characters total. 60 unique, 48 unique "mains". 15 not used, counting all echoes and Plant.

 

[KamikazePotato]

Aethercide is a way to make one character with questionable recovery and another with BAD recovery get a modicum of offstage respect. It's a high risk/reward move with counterplay. No reason to change outside of saltiness.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Shoutouts to Microsoft Excel:

9:
7:
6:
5:
4:
3:
2:
1:
0:

179 characters total. 57 unique, counting PT as one? 18 not used, including all echoes and Plant.

And keep in mind these are just the top 128 seeds. Plenty of players likely of every character in the game will be present and plenty of them will be good. It's a new game i expect plenty of unseeded hidden bosses to make good placements.

 

[Thinkaman]

I updated the data, some entries were getting parsed incorrectly and skipped. Should be accurate now. (Plus grouped Ritcher and Daisy)

Edit: Also I expect Genesis to have less secondary diversity than this "best case scenario", as the time for experimentation is over. There might be a surprise or two, but generally people will be more safe and sticking to their aces.

 

[Frihetsanka]

only one corrin (still nice to see Cosmos playing her) that is sad she really was butchered, no?

Is he actually still playing her? I remember him switching to Corrin vs Dabuz's Olimar (at Sky's Invitational) and he still lost, so he switched back to Inkling. Aside from that, I can't recall seeing him play Corrin in any Ultimate tournament.

Corrin got massively nerfed in the transition from Smash 4 to Ultimate. All of her specials got nerfed (including her recovery, Dragon Fang Shot-bite consistency/kill potential, and pin's overall usability), her fair has slightly more startup, her killthrows got worse, and her down-tilt doesn't combo as well anymore.

She also got a new pummel which is much faster (so better for refreshing moves from staling) but deals significantly less damage (so you'll likely end up doing less damage from pummeling). Not a huge deal but it's there. Overall, she's been massively nerfed, and is a contender for the worst swordfighter in the game (and potentially a bottom 20 character).

 

[J0eyboi]

Genesis 6 Top 128 Seeding (Subject to change)


https://smash.gg/tournament/genesis-6/events/smash-for-switch-singles/standings

1: Tweek
2: MKLeo
3: Nairo
4: zackray
5: Dabuz
6: Light
7: Samsora
8: Shuton
9: VoiD
10: Salem
11: Larry Lurr
12: Cosmos
13: Marss
14: tamim
15: ESAM
16: Ally
17: WaDi
18: Mr. R
19: Nietono
20: MVD
21: Abadango
22: Umeki
23: Javi
24: Maister
25: Sinji
26: ANTi
27: SDX
28: Fatality
29: Captain Zack
30: MuteAce
31: Yeti
32: ZD
33: 8BitMan
34: Eon
35: Glutonny
36: Captain L
37: Myran
38: Zenyou
39: Nicko
40: Elegant
41: MattyG
42: Stroder
43: Mr E
44: Konga
45: SlayerZ
46: Big D
47: Lima
48: Dark Wizzy
49: 6WX
50: Charliedaking
51: BestNess
52: Shogun
53: Pandarian
54: NAKAT
55: Trevonte
56: Mew2King
57: ImHip
58: FOW
59: Teb
60: Lui$
61: Sonido
62: False
63: Blank
64: Ki
65: Dyr
66: Sparg0
67: Legit
68: Shaky
69: Rain
70: Armando
71: Klaatu
72: Plup
73: Locus
74: Ned
75: Xzax
76: VaLoR
77: Regi Shikimi
78: Leffen
79: Kobe
80: Wizzrobe
81: Hungrybox
82: Rags
83: Armada
84: Akashic
85: Rideae
86: K9sbruce
87: Tyrant
88: Prodigy
89: Mikee
90: twerkmastr
91: TLTC
92: MrConCon
93: Karna
94: Taternator
95: Seagull Joe
96: Rice
97: Len
98: Magister
99: 3xA
100: Diablo
101; ven
102: PiXL
103: Sharpy
104: Sonix
105: saj.
106: Z
107: Rich Brown
108: NovaPixl
109: Ez
110: Soronie
111: Epic Gabriel
112: Brian
113: Von
114: Shoe
115: Apa~
116: Ryo
117: Snoop
118: Lemmon
119: Focus
120: Duwang
121: Jtails
122: Master Raven
123: Ksev
124: Silent Rain
125: C. Falcon
126: Mang0
127: Zex
128: Nitro

I'm surprised Sethlon isn't seeded somewhere in top 128 while Von (who dat) is, but whatever. Also wow, there are no ylink mains here. That's a surprise.

I'm seeing a lot of Twitter folk complain about the seeding, saying they ignored results from Glitch 6 (which is understandable) and LMM (less understandable) and such.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Really nice to see Maister getting so far with Mr. Game and Watch; from what I can tell, it seems like he's been doing very well in adapting to and optimizing the changes he got from Smash 4 to Ultimate.

Oh word, glad they’re in there too but I still wanna see more. He’s always an underplayed character and he plays awesome in Ultimate. I want him to stay high tier and have his meta develop. Maybe it won’t be like Smash 4 and he’ll actually grow in popularity instead of shrink

The difference between Ness and Isabelle is Ness is good so I don’t see a lot of people picking up Isabelle in a serious major

Another thing to note is that this tournament had over 2000 COMBATANTS; in that regard; I'd say getting Bestness and POW getting near the top 50 is quite a feat in of itself, especially when you consider that he wasn't too far off from players such as Dark Wizzy, Lima, and 6WX.

To be honest, characters like Kirby, the Pits, WFT, etc. WISH they could have the kind of representation Ness has atm.

 

[Thinkaman]

Now for some commentary:

, , and (and to a lesser extent , , , , and ) continue to be disproportionately represented among top players compared to the community at large. Also, 3 mains?!?

Comparatively, we're seeing a striking under-representation of and , as well as , , , and . is well represented but still lags behind his extreme broader popularity. is actually underrepresented compared to his broader play rate and how much we talk about him. The most popular character not represented is .

Speaking of, remember when we all agreed is really good? Well, he doesn't exist outside of Len. Also is AWOL outside of SDX, and only makes the list as M2K's secondary . Worth also noting that 's early hype is not panning out.

continues to be big on all fronts, as does and .

is the only super-heavyweight in like the top 30, unless you count . There is a decent showing by various heavyweights though, even if smaller, faster characters still appear to run the show more than not.

And of course, remains the greatest mystery.


Most of the unused characters are not a surprise, super unpopular characters outside of for the most part, though I'm a tad surprised there's not a Swordfighter somewhere?

is another matter, and is an issue. He is indeed minimally played in the broader competitive scene, especially for a hyper-awaited newcomer that is a personality fit for many players. Yet I would not be surprised if he is nerfed, just because he is EVERYWHERE online and he is just so overwhelming to weaker players. He has a long litany of <90-percentile strengths: Good (armored) buttons, super easy and "safe" recovery, oppressive projectiles, a low-% kill confirm throw on people who don't mash, ect. It's like you let your kid cousin design "the most overpowered character ever!" who has no idea how the game actually works. Latency also favors his kit generously.

Now, obviously K. Rool actually sucks. Even online, he's not a hard puzzle to figure out. I actually really enjoy fighting him (independent of him being bad and me liking winning, I mean), and find his kooky kit design to be downright fun outside of a balance lens. But short of significantly overhauling the character, I don't know how you could remove the massive skill skew and get a character who is relevant at higher levels yet not winning half of all online matches. (I guess you could always weasel in esoteric tech-skill-intensive features for the sake of it, but that's sort of a cop-out.)

Edit: I do feel that the abundance of armored trade opportunities (+ massive weight) does at least put a floor on how bad K. Rool can actually be. He demands considerably more respect than most other "bad" characters, especially those in past games.

Edit: On the subject of online-targeting nerfs, I could also fathom adjustments to Ness Pk Fire/Thunder, and maybe Lucas Pk Freeze. Weaker players seem to just get wrecked in a jarring way; nothing else strikes me as especially problematic with latency.

isn't oppressive or as problematic for weaker players, but he actually an even bigger extreme of EVERYWHERE at lower/online levels and non-existent in the competitive scene. He's technically listed as a secondary for Captain L, but I'd honestly be surprised if we see it again soon--it definitely seemed to be his weakest character and all games I saw of his Kirby did not seem impressive. (Compared to his great Pichu and Jiggs, I mean)

I feel like the biggest shoo-in for buffs are . They are super unpopular at all levels of play, without being esoteric weirdos like . (Well, Isabelle is played a bit at lower levels, but seemingly less than you'd think and less than other newcomers.) These 3 characters, with their personalities, SHOULD be widely played and loved. But nothing could be further from the truth, and we all know it's just because they are bad. and Mii Brawler (and maybe Doc and Villager...?) almost fit this criteria, but their lack of popularity is less striking (and they seem to be better represented at lower-level play best I can tell)

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I can't see getting much in the way of buffs. He's a character who will always have a very polarizing design (crap air, great ground). Tuning his ground up much more could make him cross the line in terms of online level play. Buffing his air game goes against the design. Not much room to play with safely.

 

[Nobie]

The simplest Mac buff would be to give him a crazy high first jump (enough to reach high-ish platforms in one go) but keep his second jump bad/perhaps even make it worse. All Mac truly needs, IMO, is the ability to not get hard stage-countered.

I already think the faster fall speed he has in Ultimate is actually to let him land on platforms more quickly anyway.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Doesn't really help that For Glory was Omegas only, which greatly benefited Little Mac. One of Little Mac's greatest flaw is how easy it is to camp him on many of the stages, something he didn't have to deal with on Omegas. In Ultimate, at least we'll be getting more stage variety in Elite (well, I guess we'll be getting Battlefield forms instead of Omegas, but at least Battlefield is more balanced than Omegas).

I do agree that they shouldn't be listening to the Internet much, especially when it comes to nerfs.

Speaking of Little Mac, the common consensus seems to be that he's one of the worst characters in the game. Anyone here who disagrees? Do you think Little Mac might actually be decent?

I agree completely he's one of the worst. I actually think Dedede and Incineroar are better than him and I thought that they were among the worst about a month ago. He just feels really clunky (like Wii Fit) and nothing he does seems to work. His tilts are OK, his aerials and specials are mediocre or bad and his Smash attacks are his best moves (only because they have armor on startup). Also, just about anyone can gimp his recovery with a back air when he's off stage. Some characters can easily kill him from on stage too. I'd argue that he's worse here than Smash 4 because most of the characters who were worse than him there are much better than he is in Ultimate.

For those worrying about nerfs to characters like K Rool and the Belmonts:

"Besides campy players, Sakurai talked about Elite Smash and character tiers, which are handled by the monitor team and balancing team. Sakurai said that these teams no longer refer to feedback on the Internet to balance characters, and Sakurai once regretted listening to players on the Internet to balance fighters in Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS/Wii U."

Source: https://nintendosoup.com/sakurai-wanted-to-punish-campy-players-in-smash-bros-ultimate/

If this is true then we don't have to worry about Inkling or Chrom getting nerfed to hell. On the other hand, most characters that may need a buff like Kirby, Rosa, and Shiek might get left in the dust.

I agree with this as some characters are much more popular on Elite Smash, especially the good characters. So logically, the bad characters could have a high win rate, but a low playerbase, but could get nerfed/ignored because of the high win rate.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

The simplest Mac buff would be to give him a crazy high first jump (enough to reach high-ish platforms in one go) but keep his second jump bad/perhaps even make it worse. All Mac truly needs, IMO, is the ability to not get hard stage-countered.

I already think the faster fall speed he has in Ultimate is actually to let him land on platforms more quickly anyway.

Suspect that goes against design philosophy of him being bad in the air. Same general reasoning for Snake's first jump being bad.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

mpp8k9oo+

I can't see getting much in the way of buffs. He's a character who will always have a very polarizing design (crap air, great ground). Tuning his ground up much more could make him cross the line in terms of online level play. Buffing his air game goes against the design. Not much room to play with safely.

I said it elsewhere and I will say ot here is one of the most ill-concived gameplay designs of any character in Smash History. Out of all the entire roster he needed a major reworking for Ultimate and he did not really get it. Ok a character that us meant to be strong on the ground, weak in the air is/was not actullay a TERRIBLE idea in theory, definetly was not doomed to fail. but that concept to way to far an extreme with Mac, to the point where it is a very hard, maybe incomprehensible task to properly balance him when he as poliarized as he is now without breaking him in either direction. Does not help the new gameplay changes does as much or more to hinder him than help him