Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Rizen]

K. Rool is a character that I think is best summed up as "remarkably ok." From playing him a lot I can say he doesn't really feel terribly awful once you really simplify how you play and base it around just....really basic fundamentals and a lot less button pressing than the rest of the cast.

He doesn't feel like the average Smash 4 low tier but I do agree he seems relatively kinda weak, but there's a lot of really weird potential I see in him. Not potential to shoot up to godlike or anything but, there's a lot to look at.

The Frame 4 jab is really nice too I can't really be dishonest about that. In general I've found that he revolves a lot around placing crown smartly and using the frame advantage it can give you when placed nicely to stick out a blunderbuss fireball or move forward. His edgeguarding is where I think he ends up being strongest because he has a really good back air (its one of those moves that works well because its vastly slower than his other aerials, meaning its an automatic timing mixup ala Cloud Fair vs Cloud Nair or the likes) and just can generally assert himself really deep offstage as long as you don't Dair too low or use Uair at all.

I've been learning K.Rool to see what makes him tick. He's probably the best anti-projectile heavyweight, which is where my bias for him came from. Crown powers through projectiles, DA belly armors through them and his counter reflects. A reflector is a big deal, not because returned projectiles are a big part of a match but because the projectile user can't set the pace.
K.Rool seems designed around winning trades. Ftilt tanks attacks with belly armor and counters; Ftilt may be f12 but the armor's f5-11. His startup data is good and where it's not the armor comes in sooner. Like you said his edge guarding is very good. Where he suffers is if he guesses wrong he has weeks of lag. Each of his moves has a single purpose but doesn't cover multiple options well. If he attacks and you shield/dodge he's in trouble. Dthrow not leading into kill moves until late isn't a problem; he can still use other throws or Dthrow>frame freaking 5 Utilt. Basically he's a bully. He wants you to play his game but you don't have to. Fortunately he's heavy enough and has a long recovery to stick around.

K.Rool's not as good as I initially thought but far from the worst heavyweight. Kossismoss seems like the player to watch.

 

[MG_3989]

K.Roll lives forever too. I’ve seen him get past 300% on Final Destination before. I think that’s important and people don’t really think about it enough. The longer you live the more changes you have to kill the enemy

 

[JayEmDubya]

In addition to being great against projectiles for a heavy, K Rool kind of strikes me as one of the best anti-swordsman characters in the game. His belly armor allows him to tank long ranged pokes very well. (Especially nair, which is one of the few aerials in the game with any sort of armor.) The range on his ftilt and utilt allow him to space properly against most swordsman. Even the sourspot on dtilt has crazy range, going almost a full character length ahead of his foot.

Swordsmen are also susceptible to grapplers, and K Rool just happens to have one of the longest ranged regular grabs in the game, along with three amazing throws and one decent one. Most swordsmen also have mediocre linear recoveries that are super easy for K Rool to intercept and gimp.

Chroy still gets in super easily on K Rool like most rushdown characters and Ike's Nair has so much range that it practically ignores the belly armor, but I could see K Rool being a decent counterpick against characters like Marcina and Cloud.

On a similar note, I feel that a lot of people in the community are too hard on the new characters because they aren't producing immediate results (outside of echoes or the characters with low skill floors like Inkling and the Belmonts.) Some people even still consider Ridley bottom tier because of his lack of broken tools, despite having decent results. It will take time for the meta characters like K Rool, Isabelle, Incineroar, or even Ice Climbers to develop. It's unlikely that these characters are top tier, but they have enough tools on the surface to not be Kirby tier and someone who puts significant time into them could surprise people.

 

[Today's Tom Sawyer]

On another note, what do you guys thing of Megaman? I don’t know a lot about him but he seems really good. Leaf Shield is ridiculous. Pellets rack damage quick. Metal Blade is a great move. His aerials are really good, especially fair which is a phenomenal edge guarding move and he’s powerful and I think pretty heavy. What’s his place in the meta right now?

He's really, really strong. Plup is committing atrocities on stream with him. Most glaring flaw seems to be high endlag on his grounded moves, so vulnerable to faster bait-and-punish characters like Fox and Pichu. But that's not too bad, since his lightning-fast SHFF forward air and back air mostly make up for it in terms of raw frame data. The core of his kit and where his crazy outplay potential lies is, indeed, neutral b and down b.

Disclaimer, of course, is that his skill floor is unquestionably the highest in the game, and skill ceiling is right there with Peach and Trainer.

 

[MG_3989]

He's really, really strong. Plup is committing atrocities on stream with him. Most glaring flaw seems to be high endlag on his grounded moves, so vulnerable to faster bait-and-punish characters like Fox and Pichu. But that's not too bad, since his lightning-fast SHFF forward air and back air mostly make up for it in terms of raw frame data. The core of his kit and where his crazy outplay potential lies is, indeed, neutral b and down b.

Disclaimer, of course, is that his skill floor is unquestionably the highest in the game, and skill ceiling is right there with Peach and Trainer.

That’s what I thought. I was just interested in how good he was. Probably not gonna pick him up but he’s a really cool and unique character and I’m glad he’s good

 

[Emblem Lord]

He's really, really strong. Plup is committing atrocities on stream with him. Most glaring flaw seems to be high endlag on his grounded moves, so vulnerable to faster bait-and-punish characters like Fox and Pichu. But that's not too bad, since his lightning-fast SHFF forward air and back air mostly make up for it in terms of raw frame data. The core of his kit and where his crazy outplay potential lies is, indeed, neutral b and down b.

Disclaimer, of course, is that his skill floor is unquestionably the highest in the game, and skill ceiling is right there with Peach and Trainer.

Ken has the highest skill floor.

Yeah. I said it.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Hopefully Pit will get more representation as the game evolves, it’s still early. I think the problem is people see Pit as kind of a vanilla and “boring” character. I don’t think he is but it seems like the perception

I think changing brick and hammer into different moves would greatly help Kirby. Brick gets punished often, a good dair would be much better and hammer rarely hits a good player and is kind of redundant with side smash. I don’t know what I’d replace them with but they don’t seem like good moves. He also needs an air speed buff so he can effectively edgeguard the way Jiggs does. I honestly don’t know that much about Kirby I just know he’s lacking a lot of tools


I heard every pro that worked on balance is barred from attending tournaments

Oh, what the heck. How long are they barred for?

 

[MG_3989]

Oh, what the heck. How long are they barred for?

I’m not sure. I didn’t hear this from any official source just through word of mouth but it makes sense. I would assume they would be barred from competition as long as they continue working on balancing and patching the game

 

[Jgod]

And that’s exactly the problem. It doesn’t work and it hasn’t worked for four games which is why I would think about changing the character archetype at this point because they obviously can’t get this one right. Maybe they’ll surprise me with buffs that make Kirby viable but I doubt it
?

Kirby's always just undertuned.
On paper you'd look at his tilts and think great start-up and what not, but it's moot. With Kirbys attributes, between short range, being extremely light, average speed, slow aerial speed. You should basically pray to the god of your choice once he taps you, but that doesn't actually happen. He's not even that far from it.
Anyways talk of overhauls are a waste they're not happening in this game.

Kirby has attractive qualities that just fall short its why you see him a ton of lower levels. You could buff stone, dtilt (safety), and significantly reduce if not outright remove the lose copy ability property and it would be fairly significant right off the bat. Stone because for specific characters it is a significant edgeguard threat to be wary of. D-tilt for his ground game, particularly given its potential set-up, and copy's buffs are already moot when you lose it if you lose neutral at any point...as a stubby character. Copy is high-risk, and because you can lose the ability so easily even the best 'rewards' (abilities that affect the MU favourably) get reduced in value.

For how he is right now. I think comments of Kirby being the worst are pre-mature. Given his attributes and change of the roster's character speed it takes awhile for Kirby players to adjust to the spacing. He struggles to get in but for characters with these issues, they have to learn the windows of opportunities and ideal spacing...which all change when everyone (including yourself) is faster. Everyone technically does, but when you're already a fast character you get away with a lot of spacing errors early on because general reaction, prediction and knowledge isn't there yet to punish it. Meanwhile, Kirby will obviously get punished for playing haphazardly and he doesn't have the weight to justify throwing himself at the wall until something sticks. As the players improve his edge-guarding potential will increase and while he isn't an adept "aerial" fighter, he's always had the ability to do work off the ledge.

 

[Foie]

I’m not sure. I didn’t hear this from any official source just through word of mouth but it makes sense. I would assume they would be barred from competition as long as they continue working on balancing and patching the game

I would hope it's only while they're currently working on balance, and not indefinitely...

To engage in some reckless speculation, which characters are the riskiest to main right now due to the balance patch coming up? I'd say the most likely targets are characters with single centralizing moves that outshine the rest of the cast (in competitive play and online).

might lose is nair, might get a roller and/or ink nerf, risks losing his grab shenanigans, is probably mostly safe but might lose her full damage on float, ftilt might lose range and/or power, Nikita might become Nicky, blaster or ftilt could be tuned down. Who am I missing?

Many of these nerfs would seriously damage the characters without equal compensation buffs, but the risk remains...

 

[Heracr055]

Inkling will not get an ink nerf (even if they did it'd be a neglegible difference), but a roller nerf is possible. Still, they'd retain their best qualities (movement, combos into ink, etc) so there's little inherit risk of maining them at this time.

 

[trickroom]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

So Zage just posted this last night after winning a The Grind (an MD/VA weely that typically dwarfs Xanadu tuesdays in entrants) and he's pretty correct, if you ask me. At the very least, the burden of proof is on Belmont advocates to say otherwise, seeing as Pac-Man has a decent stock of results to back it up while the Belmonts, unless I'm missing something, haven't done as much. Even on paper, Pac-Man (and possibly Duck Hunt to boot) seem to have better tools than them in practice. Getting in on a Belmont isn't that hard for characters that are fast in the air or on the ground (with 'fast in the air or ground' essentially being shorthand for 'good characters') and successfully 'getting in' on a Belmont allows you to punish them harder than getting in on Pac-Man or Duck Hunt would reward you.

I still come back to the posts from earlier about Pac-Man's grab, too. That thing is strong -- it almost completely redefines the shared understanding of what a standing grab, tether or not tether, can do. And a character like him loves to have a very strong option against shielding.

 

[CodeBlue_]

A couple of corrections for NorCal players' mains from the 128 seed list

Legit
Von (afaik)
Teb

Legit told me directly he's using Richter as a secondary for now. I have not heard of Teb using Chrom at all recently, and I don't think he plans on a secondary atm.

 

[Thinkaman]

I think "risky" is too alarming of a word, given the magnitude/direction of past changes and the timeline of said patch being in a few days.

Like what, someone is going to grind Wolf non-stop for the next week, only to be betrayed by a patch that makes Wolf bottom tier? Even if we overlook that both parts of that scenario are ridiculous, the consequence of "spent a week practicing a bottom tier character" isn't exactly scandalous.


While I'm being critical, I'm going to indulge in rebuking an argument I have actually (thankfully) seen very little of: that it's somehow bad or "out-of-touch" for Nintendo to patch the game before Genesis.

It's pretty overtly entitled to say that the logistics of an international software deployment should be dictated by 0.03% of the userbase, particularly when talking about something that doesn't even actually inconvience them. What, it's going to stop you from practicing online the night before Genesis, lest that online practice be a trivially different game?

Let's call it what it is: Kids perpectually pissed off that papa Nintendo doesn't kiss the ring and validate them as the coolest kids on the playground.

But, again, I'm just ranting. I haven't actually seen this sentiment expressed outside of a few comments, and not here.


On the subject of Belmonts, I have trouble seeing them move up over time. Once you understand their tools and ledge-trapping, their avenues for growth seem more limited than other characters. Meanwhile their opponents will only become more optimized at gimping them? I dunno, I'm leaning towards pessimism on these guys.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I would hope it's only while they're currently working on balance, and not indefinitely...

To engage in some reckless speculation, which characters are the riskiest to main right now due to the balance patch coming up? I'd say the most likely targets are characters with single centralizing moves that outshine the rest of the cast (in competitive play and online).

might lose is nair, might get a roller and/or ink nerf, risks losing his grab shenanigans, is probably mostly safe but might lose her full damage on float, ftilt might lose range and/or power, Nikita might become Nicky, blaster or ftilt could be tuned down. Who am I missing?

Many of these nerfs would seriously damage the characters without equal compensation buffs, but the risk remains...

I also fear may be a target for nerfs. Since she has become pretty popular both online and in competive scene. Her only real thing that can be considered a bit overtuned is her n-air which is basically Ike's with less range. But it has been proven she still has flaws and matchups she stuggles quite a bit with

Cmon Big N, Plau is finally considered good now after being bottom tier in all of Smash 4's lifespan. Dont take it all away so soon

 

[Thinkaman]

I'm not opposed to patch talk, mostly because we're getting the first patch in a few days and expecting people not to talk about that seems naive, but I'd rather not engrain a precedent.

When patch talk crosses the line from "academic" speculation into opinions and cattle sacrifices, it sort of becomes inherently anti-competitive. That's because the conversation veers into assuming an external loci of control rather than an internal; talking as if what happens to us is a product of outside factors rather than our own choices and skills.

That's certainly an attitude one can elect to have--I can't stop you! But the latter is more "competitive", and that does happen to be the first word in the thread title.

 

[TimG57867]

And that’s exactly the problem. It doesn’t work and it hasn’t worked for four games which is why I would think about changing the character archetype at this point because they obviously can’t get this one right. Maybe they’ll surprise me with buffs that make Kirby viable but I doubt it

You know if there's one thing I could never understand, it's how people think Kirby's innate design is unworkable despite andbeing the terrors they are. Kirby's basically a light, super floaty version of them with multiple jumps. Even without Inhale/Copy, Kirby's base kit could allow for incredibly devestating combos are a variety of percents and combined with the raw tools he has for edgeguarding, he could be a monster for those traits alone. Inhale to totally turn the tables on opponents that would give him problems otherwise would just be icing on the cake and make him powerful in even more matchups than otherwise.

If anything Kirby's kit has more potential to great than ever now that they've gotten rid of what was quite easily the worst and most unsalvageable move in his entire SSB4 Kit which was his Dash Attack. The new Dash Attack on its own solves so many issues that plagued . (Can't punish landings well, no burst options, lack of good shield crossups, lack of strong moves to get kills raw, etc).

is not . His core design is not one that the devs cannot make effective at a competitive level without being obnoxiously overrpowered. (And heck Little Mac mostly just gets screwed by the stage list) as many other stubby combo characters managed great success every since SSB4. SSBU Kirby doesn't need major overhauls. His base kit is good enough. His real problem is that, like J Jgod pointed out, he's simply undertuned. Kirby's Tilts have incredible frame data. But his aerial frame data continues to lag behind his stubby combo cohorts which in tandem with his air speed continues to hold him back from being the monster he could be. With the exception of his Frame 6 B-Air, none of Kirby's aerials have startup quicker than Frame 10 (with D-Air being Frame 18). With a few minor touchups on the aerial's startup and/or FAF (particular to his D-Air. This move coming out 2-4 frames sooner with 1-2 less landing lag frames would make it incredible. Especially with SDI generally weaker). along with an air speed increase that got him above .90 (his air speed actually doesn't need to be that high. His air accelation is actually immensely better than 's assuming they're similar to SSB4. A minor increase getting him in the .9-.95 ballpark would make his air agility comparable to ) Kirby's effectiveness would skyrocket. And that's before all the improvements that could be made to the specials and as well as addressing the F Throw low platform issue.

I think a true testament to the potential of Kirby's kit is that even with Kirby being undertuned as he is, he's capable of stuff like this simply thanks to F Throw's new animation and the landing lag and ground speed buffs he got:

Keep in mind this is just potential combos you can do from a grab at 0. Kirby still has plenty of other starters like N-Air, Up Air, B-Air, etc that can lead into potentially even more damaging conversions.

Kirby's Up Tilt doesn't meme on fast fallers like it used to but despite that Kirby's potential damage output across is already greatly higher than it ever was in SSB4. Particularly against floaties who didn't really care at all about Kirby's Up Tilt. And as JGod said his players still have a long way to go yet with optimizing his neutral, punish, and edgeguarding game. Despite being undertuned, Kirby's skill ceiling already greatly higher than it was in SSB4. Just imagine what would be possible with actual relevant improvements to his frame data and decent air speed increase?

As I've said before, Kirby is certainly on the weaker side of the cast atm, but even as he currently is he has more to work with than most realize. And he most certainly does NOT need anymore major move overhauls to be a threat in this game. Whether it's improvement to Copy RNG, air speed increases, or move startup, all Kirby needs to be a true threat in this game are simple number adjustments just like most underpowered characters. Nothing more. Nothing less. His base kit is fine.

 

[ZephyrZ]

might lose is nair, might get a roller and/or ink nerf, risks losing his grab shenanigans, is probably mostly safe but might lose her full damage on float, ftilt might lose range and/or power, Nikita might become Nicky, blaster or ftilt could be tuned down. Who am I missing?

Many of these nerfs would seriously damage the characters without equal compensation buffs, but the risk remains...

Cmon Big N, Plau is finally considered good now aftee being bottom tier in all of Smash 4. Dont take it all away so soon

Remember when the first Smash 4 patch nerfed Diddy and Sheik so hard that they became worthless for the rest of the game's lifespan? ...Oh wait, that didn't happen. Most Smash 4 high tiers stayed up there for most of the game's lifespan. What are we scared about exactly?

What degree some of these thing gets nerfed for is still worth noting. Inkling's bury duration might possibly get shortened but I doubt it'll be so much that she can't kill confirm with it anymore. And if Ike gained a couple frames of start up lag to nair, for instance, would the character really be dead?

The only one of these character who I believe might get a change that would seriously effect their viability is Luigi, and that's just because Nintendo understandably doesn't like zero-to-deaths. You don't exactly see high level players flocking to him anyway though, probably because that combo is already too risky and situational of a clutch to rely on anyway.

 

[Tesh]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

So Zage just posted this last night after winning a The Grind (an MD/VA weely that typically dwarfs Xanadu tuesdays in entrants) and he's pretty correct, if you ask me. At the very least, the burden of proof is on Belmont advocates to say otherwise, seeing as Pac-Man has a decent stock of results to back it up while the Belmonts, unless I'm missing something, haven't done as much. Even on paper, Pac-Man (and possibly Duck Hunt to boot) seem to have better tools than them in practice. Getting in on a Belmont isn't that hard for characters that are fast in the air or on the ground (with 'fast in the air or ground' essentially being shorthand for 'good characters') and successfully 'getting in' on a Belmont allows you to punish them harder than getting in on Pac-Man or Duck Hunt would reward you.

I still come back to the posts from earlier about Pac-Man's grab, too. That thing is strong -- it almost completely redefines the shared understanding of what a standing grab, tether or not tether, can do. And a character like him loves to have a very strong option against shielding.

This seems like an easy call to make. Belmonts are fresh and new, having an interesting spacing and zoning game, but they don't have many options up close and get punished hard for losing neutral because of the poor recovery. Pac-Man has great close range options to fight or escape and a really solid recovery. His ability to reset bad situations is worth more than belmonts harder hitting projectiles.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

So Zage just posted this last night after winning a The Grind (an MD/VA weely that typically dwarfs Xanadu tuesdays in entrants) and he's pretty correct, if you ask me. At the very least, the burden of proof is on Belmont advocates to say otherwise, seeing as Pac-Man has a decent stock of results to back it up while the Belmonts, unless I'm missing something, haven't done as much. Even on paper, Pac-Man (and possibly Duck Hunt to boot) seem to have better tools than them in practice. Getting in on a Belmont isn't that hard for characters that are fast in the air or on the ground (with 'fast in the air or ground' essentially being shorthand for 'good characters') and successfully 'getting in' on a Belmont allows you to punish them harder than getting in on Pac-Man or Duck Hunt would reward you.

I still come back to the posts from earlier about Pac-Man's grab, too. That thing is strong -- it almost completely redefines the shared understanding of what a standing grab, tether or not tether, can do. And a character like him loves to have a very strong option against shielding.

With a glance at the results thread: when you combine the two Belmonts they have more results than Pac-Man. Held true for last week, and a few other weeks I checked.

I can also point to the fact that people are far more used to fighting the Belmonts than Pac-Man because they were everywhere the first few weeks while Pac-Man didn't exist at all.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Remember when the first Smash 4 patch nerfed Diddy and Sheik so hard that they became worthless for the rest of the game's lifespan? ...Oh wait, that didn't happen. Most Smash 4 high tiers stayed up there for most of the game's lifespan. What are we scared about exactly?

What degree some of these thing gets nerfed for is still worth noting. Inkling's bury duration might possibly get shortened but I doubt it'll be so much that she can't kill confirm with it anymore. And if Ike gained a couple frames of start up lag to nair, for instance, would the character really be dead?

The only one of these character who I believe might get a change that would seriously effect their viability is Luigi, and that's just because Nintendo understandably doesn't like zero-to-deaths. You don't exactly see high level players flocking to him anyway though, probably because that combo is already too risky and situational of a clutch to rely on anyway.

Counterargument. Smash 4 Greninja, Littlemac and D3

Heh Zachmac I am kidding to an extent. Greninja was buffed after his initial gutting in future patches to be fairly decent at the end, Mac and D3 though I got no explianation. but to be serious I do get your point, I am saying that I and a few others are a bit weary the wrong characters are going to get nerfed too hard for the wrong reasons, especially so early into the meta.

 

[bc1910]

Greninja was the only character in S4 to become competitively irrelevant as a result of patching. This was because his kit revolved around a couple of blatantly overpowered moves which were nerfed with no compensating buffs until later in the game’s life (I maintain S4 Greninja was probably top 15 at the end but that’s beyond irrelevant now).

I don’t see any character in Ultimate having the same issue because characters in general are built much more cohesively. Wolf could get a few more frames of endlag on his blaster and some kind of Nair nerf. You’re still looking at a character who will force the approach in 90% of MUs due to having a good projectile and reflector, and has various other tools for winning neutral consistently. Inkling roller nerf? Have fun celebrating while she’s still facerolling you with quick aerials and killing you off throws.

In other words, I wouldn’t worry about any character taking such a huge fall from grace that they become unviable. This has only happened once in Smash patching history and was in a game where characters tended to have average-bad kits with one or two massively overpowered options holding them together.

 

[Minordeth]

Existential fears about characters being nerfed into oblivion are unfounded, given Bamco’s track record at balancing Smash 4.

My concern would be a lack of understanding of what could actually improve a character’s overall functioning.

Like, Falco’s autolinks on his Nair make the move barely function unless it is falling/neutral. The rising version is almost useless, and it makes what would have been a (somewhat) good OOS option, less preferable than just fullhopping out.

Other than that relatively minor concern, improving input lag would be at the top of my list, along with implementing rollback/GGPao for online instead of the delay abomination we have currently.

 

[meleebrawler]

Existential fears about characters being nerfed into oblivion are unfounded, given Bamco’s track record at balancing Smash 4.

My concern would be a lack of understanding of what could actually improve a character’s overall functioning.

Like, Falco’s autolinks on his Nair make the move barely function unless it is falling/neutral. The rising version is almost useless, and it makes what would have been a (somewhat) good OOS option, less preferable than just fullhopping out.

Other than that relatively minor concern, improving input lag would be at the top of my list, along with implementing rollback/GGPao for online instead of the delay abomination we have currently.

I've seen rollback in Brawlhalla. It's equally bad, if not worse when connection is bad. It's just a matter of preference whether matches running slowly or your characters taking sudden damage and teleporting off stage randomly is worse.

Anyway... are there any concerns for getting some kind of nerf?

 

[DJ3DS]

I've seen rollback in Brawlhalla. It's equally bad, if not worse when connection is bad. It's just a matter of preference whether matches running slowly or your characters taking sudden damage and teleporting off stage randomly is worse.

Anyway... are there any concerns for getting some kind of nerf?

ROB could potentially see base knockback of Side B nerfed but not much else. Nothing else about him is particularly overbearing, his bury is terrible and his disadvantage is poor.

 

[MG_3989]

R.O.B’s side b definitely seems like the kind of move that would at least be discussed in nerf conversations. I don’t think the move is broken but it’s really really good and somewhat spammable

I’m really hoping for a Shiek damage and kill power buff. Sheik is one of those characters that is inches away from being viable but her kill power is such a huge roadblock

 

[DJ3DS]

R.O.B’s side b definitely seems like the kind of move that would at least be discussed in nerf conversations. I don’t think the move is broken but it’s really really good and somewhat spammable

I’m really hoping for a Shiek damage and kill power buff. Sheik is one of those characters that is inches away from being viable but her kill power is such a huge roadblock

ROB side B isn't really spammable. It is extremely punishable and doesnt actually kill onstage until quite high percents. Compare this to, say, Lucina's forward smash, which kills significantly earlier, is faster and much safer.

The move is strong because of its potential for edgeguarding, especially as it drags the opponent towards the blastzone. It is good at intercepting horizontal recoveries, but can't deal with vertical ones nearly as well.

The main issue the move has is being confirmable to end a zero to death. It's only other confirm is off of a raw Nair at mid percents, which requires ROB to hit a slow, unsafe aerial at a spacing where he can be easily punished.

Were I to adjust it, I'd reduce its base knockback to the point it no longer finishes the well known zero to death, but increase knockback growth to still make it an effective edgeguarding tool at mid percents and a better kill move at high percents.

 

[AxelVDP]

I honestly don't believe Sheik needs a lot of buffs, honestly I think that just making her heavier (as heavy as Zelda again) would solve her biggest issue, aka the inherent extra "risk" in her kit that doesn't need to be there
Yeah she has no real kill setups (besides needles into bouncing fish atleast), but her smashes, upb and offstage bouncing fish are all easily workable with
and her lack of dammage I feel is mostly just a problem of adapting to her new kit. yea her fair does a pitiful 4ish%, but you're not supposed to use it to rack up damage to begin with, now it's mostly a (safe) tool to get stage control and setup into other stuff
her jab, specials and smashes do kinda respectable damage and she still has combos (and an incredible juggling and edgeguarding game)
also, use pummels more, in ultimate you can kinda see when an opponent is mashing out of a grab and she needs any source of damage she can get
it's just a matter of implementing these moves more into her gameplan

 

[Thinkaman]

After reflecting a bit on K. Rool, many plausible lower-level nerfs would have little impact on actual higher-level gameplay for the character. Like what, they nerf the numbers on neutral-b? Who cares, besides apparently IGN?

I've seen rollback in Brawlhalla. It's equally bad, if not worse when connection is bad. It's just a matter of preference whether matches running slowly or your characters taking sudden damage and teleporting off stage randomly is worse.

Yeah, rollback is sort of disgusting, in a rather different but often equal in magnitude way as slowdown. It's really a preference thing, especially with a large buffer.

In terms of "value as a competitive experience", I am slightly in favor of delay over rollback.

While it's silly to sugar coat it, once in awhile you will get a long freeze at an interesting moment that at least makes for a teachable moment.

 

[Minordeth]

I've seen rollback in Brawlhalla. It's equally bad, if not worse when connection is bad. It's just a matter of preference whether matches running slowly or your characters taking sudden damage and teleporting off stage randomly is worse.

I don’t want to get into this too much, because it’s outside the scope of this thread, but for fighting games, input delay is always worse. Rather, tying inputs to the simulation update is fundamentally flawed. It’s the reason rollback, GGPO style netcode is the standard for fighting games now.

Why?

Characters that require tight inputs for combos and maneuvers become far, far harder to play when input delay is the basis for the netcode.

Yeah, teleporting sucks, but adjusting button inputs that are wired to muscle memory to account for variable input delay is bad, and can happen even with decent ping.

Yes, implementation matters. Always. But going from GGPO to Smash is awful, even with a wired connection and local opponents.

Falco is impossible online basically and it makes me a sad panda.

EDIT: But Ridley sure isn’t.

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

I don’t want to get into this too much, because it’s outside the scope of this thread, but for fighting games, input delay is always worse. Rather, tying inputs to the simulation update is fundamentally flawed. It’s the reason rollback, GGPO style netcode is the standard for fighting games now.

Why?

Characters that require tight inputs for combos and maneuvers become far, far harder to play when input delay is the basis for the netcode.

Yeah, teleporting sucks, but adjusting button inputs that are wired to muscle memory to account for variable input delay is bad, and can happen even with decent ping.

Yes, implementation matters. Always. But going from GGPO to Smash is awful, even with a wired connection and local opponents.

Falco is impossible online basically and it makes me a sad panda.

EDIT: But Ridley sure isn’t.

I strongly agree with this. I’d rather play rollback and have an offline-like experience with people close by, even if it means I will occasionally have a really bad connection in quickplay with someone playing wirelessly or something.

In other games like guilty gear all my matches are in lobbies anyways.

Anyways, I think it’s pretty unlikely. What I’m more optimistic for is a training mode that isn’t bunk

 

[MG_3989]

So getting off the patch and buffs and nerfs topic for a little while, I think ZSS is slept on. She has a ton of high damage combos, she’s quick, she has a decent projectile and good range, and she has a ton of kill confirms even from early percents. Her ladder combo is still intact too. That seems like a recipe for a really good character to me. I know there are pros still playing her and nobody thinks she’s bad but there’s very little hype around her. I think the community is sleeping on her a little bit

I guess she’s on the more technical and difficult side to play but that shouldn’t stop high level players

 

[Ffamran]

Like, Falco’s autolinks on his Nair make the move barely function unless it is falling/neutral. The rising version is almost useless, and it makes what would have been a (somewhat) good OOS option, less preferable than just fullhopping out.

Not exactly sure what you're saying. Depending on the autolink angle and knockback values among other things, it could make his Nair go from connecting better to wacky. 1.0.8 Smash 4 Falco Nair which was given the 367 degree autolink angle for its loop hits would be wacky with how it was able to drag people around. The 366 autolink angle on the other hand which is found on the loop hits of his Smash 4 Fair and probably his Ultimate Fair along with Zelda's Nair which will be important later in this post would probably be the connects better and not really being wacky. Granted, because of the high active frames and Falco's high fall speed, his Fair, along with other similar moves on other characters, is wacky when you use it edgeguard people.

I'm pretty damn sure Ultimate Falco Nair's loop hits don't have autolink angles and it might not even have the same values as his Brawl and launch Smash 4 Falco Nair, so it's unknown if it was rolled back to how it worked in before 1.0.8 Smash 4. You can sort of tell this by watching how the opponent responds to the loop hits on his and once again which I will talk about later, Zelda's Nair. The opponent usually "stays in place" rather than going with the attack and Falco/Zelda which is what an autolink angle would have caused them to do. That said, it's similar to how it worked before 1.0.8 because it doesn't connect as well as 1.0.8 Smash 4 Falco Nair.

You can read more about autolink angles here: https://www.ssbwiki.com/Autolink_angle.

Regarding Zelda's Nair, for one reason or another, they went back to their approach in Melee and Brawl for her Nair when Ultimate, the game after Smash 4 which introduced more autolink angles to cover other situations and also essentially refined them and where it had autolink angles. So, instead of having and keeping the 366 autolink angles it had in Smash 4 or even set knockback, it has a weird hybrid of low base and low or high knockback on its hitboxes. The result? It doesn't connect well, especially compared to in Smash 4. Part of me even wants to say it doesn't connect well compared to Melee and Brawl because of the lower and less consistent knockback.

@BJN39, speaking of hitboxes, so, the developers decided to go back to their approach in Melee and Brawl for her Nair's loop hits in Ultimate, the game after autolink angles were in general, expanded and improved upon? Melee's loop hits have hit angles of 130/130/90/90 and Brawl's has if I'm reading it correctly, 150/150/90/270. Both games share the same fixed knockback of 75/75/120/50 for the loop hits. In Ultimate, according to your data, they have hit angles of 70/92/270 with no fixed knockback, but a weird overall knockback of 50/30/15 base and 80/10/10 growth. Meanwhile, in Smash 4 where Zelda's Nair's loop hits had the 366 autolink hit angles and 75 fixed knockback.

Zelda's Nair loop hits should look like this according to Kuro.

they really tried to make zelda's nair good in this game (using s4 model for convenience)

the extended hitboxes (the capsules) only hit aerial opponents and use a meteor and a 92 angle hitbox to try and keep people in it. They also set weight apparently. pic.twitter.com/Wl1yeuvjxh

— Kurogane Hammer (@KuroganeHammer) January 10, 2019

Also, multi-hit moves, especially aerials, don't need autolink angles to connect well. Depending on what they do and how they're tuned, they can function very well. Fox's Dair is an example of this as it never had autolink angles in Smash 4 or Ultimate, but worked well in every game as far as I know.

 

[Lavani]

I'm pretty damn sure Ultimate Falco Nair's loop hits don't have autolink angles

The loop hits use 366° autolinks in Ultimate.

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

So getting off the patch and buffs and nerfs topic for a little while, I think ZSS is slept on. She has a ton of high damage combos, she’s quick, she has a decent projectile and good range, and she has a ton of kill confirms even from early percents. Her ladder combo is still intact too. That seems like a recipe for a really good character to me. I know there are pros still playing her and nobody thinks she’s bad but there’s very little hype around her. I think the community is sleeping on her a little bit

I guess she’s on the more technical and difficult side to play but that shouldn’t stop high level players

I haven't seen this posted in the results thread yet, but

ZSS won another Tokaigi lol

— Ally (@AllyUltimate) January 27, 2019

She's high on the japanese tier lists, too. I think in the orionstats results sheet she's somewhere between ness and m2 in the low 20s. I think Pichu and Fox might be stealing some of her swagger over here.

 

[MG_3989]

I haven't seen this posted in the results thread yet, but

ZSS won another Tokaigi lol

— Ally (@AllyUltimate) January 27, 2019

She's high on the japanese tier lists, too. I think in the orionstats results sheet she's somewhere between ness and m2 in the low 20s. I think Pichu and Fox might be stealing some of her swagger over here.

That makes sense. I know ZSS isn’t easy to pick up and master and she’s changed a little since 4 but I don’t see why that would prevent pros from getting results with her. A character with that many reliable kill confirms, good movement, a good projectile, and a great combo game just seems like they should be getting more hype than she is

 

[Deleted member]

So getting off the patch and buffs and nerfs topic for a little while, I think ZSS is slept on. She has a ton of high damage combos, she’s quick, she has a decent projectile and good range, and she has a ton of kill confirms even from early percents. Her ladder combo is still intact too. That seems like a recipe for a really good character to me. I know there are pros still playing her and nobody thinks she’s bad but there’s very little hype around her. I think the community is sleeping on her a little bit

I guess she’s on the more technical and difficult side to play but that shouldn’t stop high level players

Shes definitely not "hyped" per say but most people know she's good when the new game smell wears off the veterans will get more attention

 

[MG_3989]

Shes definitely not "hyped" per say but most people know she's good when the new game smell wears off the veterans will get more attention

I just don’t understand how she’s getting rated mid tier on some pro’s tier lists when it seems pretty obvious she’s a high tier character

 

[Thinkaman]

No spoilers, but Maister vs Frosty at Retro Arena 64 just now was one of the best Ultimate sets I've seen. Catch the VOD for some cutting edge G&W and Belmont play.

 

[KirbySquad101]

You know if there's one thing I could never understand, it's how people think Kirby's innate design is unworkable despite andbeing the terrors they are. Kirby's basically a light, super floaty version of them with multiple jumps. Even without Inhale/Copy, Kirby's base kit could allow for incredibly devestating combos are a variety of percents and combined with the raw tools he has for edgeguarding, he could be a monster for those traits alone. Inhale to totally turn the tables on opponents that would give him problems otherwise would just be icing on the cake and make him powerful in even more matchups than otherwise.

If anything Kirby's kit has more potential to great than ever now that they've gotten rid of what was quite easily the worst and most unsalvageable move in his entire SSB4 Kit which was his Dash Attack. The new Dash Attack on its own solves so many issues that plagued . (Can't punish landings well, no burst options, lack of good shield crossups, lack of strong moves to get kills raw, etc).

is not . His core design is not one that the devs cannot make effective at a competitive level without being obnoxiously overrpowered. (And heck Little Mac mostly just gets screwed by the stage list) as many other stubby combo characters managed great success every since SSB4. SSBU Kirby doesn't need major overhauls. His base kit is good enough. His real problem is that, like J Jgod pointed out, he's simply undertuned. Kirby's Tilts have incredible frame data. But his aerial frame data continues to lag behind his stubby combo cohorts which in tandem with his air speed continues to hold him back from being the monster he could be. With the exception of his Frame 6 B-Air, none of Kirby's aerials have startup quicker than Frame 10 (with D-Air being Frame 18). With a few minor touchups on the aerial's startup and/or FAF (particular to his D-Air. This move coming out 2-4 frames sooner with 1-2 less landing lag frames would make it incredible. Especially with SDI generally weaker). along with an air speed increase that got him above .90 (his air speed actually doesn't need to be that high. His air accelation is actually immensely better than 's assuming they're similar to SSB4. A minor increase getting him in the .9-.95 ballpark would make his air agility comparable to ) Kirby's effectiveness would skyrocket. And that's before all the improvements that could be made to the specials and as well as addressing the F Throw low platform issue.

I think a true testament to the potential of Kirby's kit is that even with Kirby being undertuned as he is, he's capable of stuff like this simply thanks to F Throw's new animation and the landing lag and ground speed buffs he got:

Keep in mind this is just potential combos you can do from a grab at 0. Kirby still has plenty of other starters like N-Air, Up Air, B-Air, etc that can lead into potentially even more damaging conversions.

Kirby's Up Tilt doesn't meme on fast fallers like it used to but despite that Kirby's potential damage output across is already greatly higher than it ever was in SSB4. Particularly against floaties who didn't really care at all about Kirby's Up Tilt. And as JGod said his players still have a long way to go yet with optimizing his neutral, punish, and edgeguarding game. Despite being undertuned, Kirby's skill ceiling already greatly higher than it was in SSB4. Just imagine what would be possible with actual relevant improvements to his frame data and decent air speed increase?

As I've said before, Kirby is certainly on the weaker side of the cast atm, but even as he currently is he has more to work with than most realize. And he most certainly does NOT need anymore major move overhauls to be a threat in this game. Whether it's improvement to Copy RNG, air speed increases, or move startup, all Kirby needs to be a true threat in this game are simple number adjustments just like most underpowered characters. Nothing more. Nothing less. His base kit is fine.

Well said points; as a Smash 4 Kirby player I am rather pessimistic about how well he'll play out in the long run in Ultimate, if only because much of what hurt him in 4 - lightweight, Hammer being mostly useless, Inhale suffering from RNG shenanigans, terrible aerial mobility combined with 80% of aerials starting no sooner than frame 10 (I find this honestly feels like such backward design, especially on LIGHTWEIGHT of all character types), bad range overall - is still here and unaccounted for. At the same time, I also don't think it's smart to be writing off anyone atm, given how early the game is. Just a while ago, many people were convinced G&W was bad, and Maister has been putting in quite a bit of work with him. And even then, it's not like Kirby's been completely devoid of results - Komota placed 9th with Kirby in a 200+ entry tournament, so that does have to mean something.

I can agree that nothing in his tool kit really feels that "bad"; there is a few moves (i.e. Hammer, DAir, FTilt) that stick out like sore thumbs to me, but the rest of his moves are close to being good (and some already are good, like UTilt and BAir); that is sort of what I mean by giving him an overhaul all around though; not completely reinventing his moves, but just giving them the push that they need to help him succeed (reducing start-up on aerials, increasing air speed, making Stone a better punish and able to do serious shield damage, maybe reverting Hammer to what it was in Brawl, removing the RNG baloney on Inhale, reducing start-up on USmash and DSmash).

That said, I am hopeful Kirby will be able to work without the need for major buffs; again, VERY pessimistic about his viability in Ultimate, especially considering how overrated he was in SSB4, but if he can keep the momentum going from the few good placings he received, then that's nothing but good news to me.