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Because Pokemon Trainer is only good at best, and the amount of effort required to play the character doesn't match the reward.
carries the other two hard, is a Sheik in a game where Sheik's are only OK and tools are slow/committal in a game where most tools do not share a heavy commitment (lethal OOS though!)I like the pre Gensis johns coming out of Leffen. If he wants the practice against high level pros move to the US. Unless there's some valid reason for him not to be able to move.
Robin is in the giant clump of not-great Smash 4 characters that remain not great, despite getting a bunch of the roster-wide changes. They're definitely on the short list of who should get some love in 2.0.
I kinda feel like Robin is like Ultimate version of brawl Zelda. I'd really like to hear what they were going for with his design.
that was fun !! :) @AllyUltimate pic.twitter.com/cRzHbYyPj5
— あーす (@earth_tyt) January 28, 2019
Destroyed me :O
— Ally (@AllyUltimate) January 28, 2019
The clear list of low-tier characters that need buffs:who do you think need buffs? (for me it's
Start with Levin sword, please. Just... why? I don't get it. The ammo system is already a limitation that is justified for only two of the moves, IMO (Levin and Nosferatu). He's just totally ****ed. No buffs will save him. Needs a significant damage buff to compensate for his sluggish air speed. Characters like Ness got massive damage boosts across the board to compensate for their notable other weaknesses, but Kirby remains too weak to justify his problems. Their projectiles are nifty, but the hitboxes on their normal attacks is so ridiculously small without any other upside to them. Kart needs more super armor. He has a ton of really bad matchups on characters and stages due to how many fast projectiles break his kart's armor. "Young Link hiding under a platform" is pure nightmare fuel for the Koopalings. Puppets have problems, and not a lot of reason to justify them. Their strengths are too niche. aren't great, but aren't totally dire like the above.
Because Pokemon Trainer is only good at best, and the amount of effort required to play the character doesn't match the reward.
is the only one out of the PT trio that I fear at times. Razor Leaf is almost as strong and abusable projectile as blaster , not to mention all its huge hitboxes and disjointed buttons that can make most swordies envious. I honestly think Ivysaur could be easily high-tier, maybe even top-tier if it was a solo character
First of all, you are labeling characters randomly off as low tier. While characters like Kirby and Mac are more widely agreed to be in the lower end of the tier list, putting characters like MK and DH as low tier is more controversial.The clear list of low-tier characters that need buffs:
Characters like
Yeah. The Levin Sword change is kinda uncalled for. While annoying, I wouldn't really call Robin a character that desperately needs buffs, especially giving his rewarding moves and high learning curve. The main issue with Mac is that his grounded jump doesn't reach the lower platform of stages. This causes him to be bodied by stage counterpick. A simple fix to that is already a huge boon to him. Giving back a few of his grounded KO confirms that he lost doesn't hurt either. I wouldn't say he needs a significant damage boost, but his reward does need to be tuned up a little to compensate for his mediocre air speed and stubby feet. First of all, MK's special moves putting him into freefall has been a thing since Brawl, so no, that doesn't need a change. Second, what makes you say MK is low tier? What gives you the impression that their hitboxes are "ridiculously small"? The duck's attacks gives them about as much range as TLink and YLink's sword attacks. Either way, what makes you think that simple fact ruins the character, especially since Pichu exists. Lack of armor doesn't cripple the character at all, but it indeed creates some annoying matchups, especially against YLink. I do agree with more armor on the side B. No argues here. Two big bags of huge potential (whether it is from Attack Canceling or Desync Combos), but is hindered one way or another. Luna tethered needs more damage, while Nana should have better AI.
You forgot about Ivy's u-air and d-air(that spikes) which have hitboxes the size of Texas.
FACTZ!!
I was wrong onFirst of all, you are labeling characters randomly off as low tier. While characters like Kirby and Mac are more widely agreed to be in the lower end of the tier list, putting characters like MK and DH as low tier is more controversial.
and have removed him from the post. Some people in some communities are actually doing sort of well with him. comment would be controversial. They have a really, almost shockingly bad aerial game, with their neutral being the only real standout. The overall range may be good on the bird stabs, but there's not a lot of lateral spread or active frames compared to swordies or electrics, I think. Pretty much every tier list I've seen has the duo in the bottom half, bottom third, or bottom rung. They are not bad enough to have no chance of doing well, but I suspect a lot of their few good showings come from people not encountering them often enough to understand how to play around the can.
is the kind of player who justs levels up one pokemon to beat the game (I know I did).
The funny thing is that Ivysaur in particular was a contender for the absolute worst character in Brawl. The 3-4 Ivysaur players from Brawl must be laughing hysterically now.It's funny cause I remember in Brawl, Squirtle had to hard carry the team cause the other two were irredeemably bad and now Ivy is hard carrying the team now (though to be fair. Squirtle' s kinda solid) . I guess
didn't chromicide kill the opponents first? because i did the up b on a
Sudden death happens most of the time because the Chrom Player:
Ivy's dair is good, but it's actually kind of weak as far as meteors go. That and noticeable lag means it can be punished on hit at low percents due to being to weak to ground bounce the enemy.
The Sheik comparison for Squirtle is mostly true, but he has a way to hilariously screw recoveries with Water Gun, a ridiculously strong push for how quick it charges. Anyone try spraying opponents towards and under stages?It's funny cause I remember in Brawl, Squirtle had to hard carry the team cause the other two were irredeemably bad and now Ivy is hard carrying the team now (though to be fair. Squirtle' s kinda solid) . I guess
as my main and I think everyone has already made valid points on each Pokemon. is solid if only for lower percentages, definitely carries the team with ridiculous hitboxes, amazing projectile, and vine whip shenanigans. is actually solid even if he has a limited moveset. I agree some of the hitboxes on fair/ bair are kinda dumb (in a bad way) but Flamethrower is decent, Usmash is quick, and you can punish opponents quite a bit OOS. I was one of those 3-4 players and I'm actually not too crazy about Ivysaur in this game. Bair range nerf and lack of dair momentum cancel are lame, and I really hate her new dash attack.The funny thing is that Ivysaur in particular was a contender for the absolute worst character in Brawl. The 3-4 Ivysaur players from Brawl must be laughing hysterically now.
Would be the best solo pokemon of the trio because well roundedness but I don't see it being necessarily better or worse than the other 2. Maybe that's because I play a character who out-camps Ivy. PT needs to work as a team to be effective. Squirtle is for early % strings and weaving around zoners. Ivy zones, spikes, has lighter chains and can kill making it best for mid %s. Charizard has big kill moves, a kill throw, good recovery and weight making it ideal for late %s. Each has their own strengths and weaknesses. I've seen PT players favor Squirtle in certain MUs and charizard in others. is the flavor of the week because Maester but imo is on the weaker end of the cast. He's certainly functional and bucket reflecting turned it from a highly situational tool to a situational tool. Reflectors are good vs zoners; YL can no longer strait camp G&W. G&W has weaknesses of being extremely light, getting outzoned by swords and is generally undertuned.
She also DOES have a few guaranteed set up, her most consistent is tipper Down Tilt to buffered dash Up Smash.
Can’t tell if serious, but it’s ridiculous to suggest that someone can up sticks and move to another country just like that, even if Smash is their career. Moving for work is a huge decision for which many considerations must be taken into account. Ultimate isn’t even his main Smash game.
I'm pretty convinced by Inkling's staying power because they don't seem to have any glaring issues such as the ones with the characters you mentioned. Their crazy mobility makes up for their small range and their edgeguarding and damage wracking capability make up for their relative trouble killing. Unless they completely ruin roller or nerf up-air, I can't see the Inklings falling below upper high tier.
Now, people seem to be waiting for nerfs to PT in this thread, not metagame development (in fact it's safe to say PT will be optimized with time as people improve at Squirtle's combo tree and just switching/tech in general) but I agree that there are a lot of characters we assume to be good that will fall. I actually think time might be better to Roy than Chrom due to how amazing his up-b is out of shield and how he can be completely suffocating with his sweetspots at close-range. Peach and Daisy definitely feel like they have more staying power than Sm4sh (note their ability to do full-power aerials at shorthop height and already having 2nd at a major) but the rest of your post is right if you ask me (and it's still pretty likely Peach will fall to an extent).
I agree. I for one was super disappointed when I tried
for the first time since brawl and his speed seemed cut in half. I was hoping for something like tiny mii brawler speed (which granted, is rather absurd). He just seems rather "honest" which is not really a good thing in this game... I don't know if the jack-of-all-trades, master of none design of PT is going to lead to crazy success.
Ah, right, forgot about them. My main thing about Inkling is that they'll probably get worse because the game is just so oversaturated with them right now. Casual play. Pro play. They're everywhere and, while I don't think they'll fall far, I don't see them staying as a dominanting force. They'll probably wind up like Smash 4 Mario and wind up in this weird nebulous zone of constant arguing of how good they actually are.
seems to have fallen off a bit short despite the hype. Mostly likely due to his recovery and that many top and high-tiers have very easy and effective ways to exploit it. is likely going to overtake him, and that seems to have already kind of started too I dont see falling off at all if they remain the same.. it just..yeah they are just ridiculous.. Ehh no, well only by the slightest amount. Even if roller does get nerfed, I doubt it would mean much to the actually skilled Inking players who just dont use the thing as a crutch May fall off a bit, he seems to have many of his really bad MU's from Smash 4 still. Still a solid high-tier at least. almost seems as bad as it was in Smash 4 Bayo's nerfs she got and R.O.B's buffs Has a slight chance of falling off a bit honestly, once characters exploit her weakness in poor Oos options and lack of a "Get off me" move in general. Has issues vs the spacies and the electric rats People though he would fall off, but so far he has not really, like I mentioned his lack of "kill-confirms" is not a big an issue for him at all when he can control neutral as well as he can, and he just has a ridiculous amount of very effective ways to kill once he gets you in his kill percentage range
I miss hydroplaningI agree. I for one was super disappointed when I tried
Squirtle used to be so good at sliding around. Now he feels too predictable. One reason I haven't picked up PT is Squirtle.
I was assuming that he would start to fall off as well. But it just seems like if you just stick to your gameplan and don't overextend to get a kill, you will get that kill before anyone gets too much damage on you.
Ok lets say you argue you can just avoid running into his kill options..ok once you are around 130-140% yeah here is what you need to "avoid" and not run into not even counting his smash attacks.
It doesn’t make sense to me either. None of the three are particularly difficult characters to learn. The skill cap to learning PKT as opposed to Peach or Greninja isn’t even comparableI don't really get why people keep saying Pokemon Trainer is hard. Besides Ivysaur, the pokemon's individual kit is simplistic and kinda limited. None of the pokemon are really technical, and you only really need to know only some parts of their gameplan since there is no penalty for switching. If you learn Squirtle's low percent combos, Ivysaur, and Charizard's ledge trapping and kill setups, you're pretty much all set.
I’m sure Leffen could move to the US if he wanted to and it would probably help his career. I mean he’s sponsored and all they could get him a Visa easy. He does have a life and a girlfriend in Sweden though and he does really well streaming so maybe he just likes living there and doesn’t really have enough motivation to make the move. Armada’s never done it either. I don’t think winning more Smash tournaments is lucrative enough to go through moving countries for. Especially if you’re already happy with where you live. It’s not like you’re making OW, LoL, etc... type money. That said if a player like Leffen did decide to move to a stacked Ultimate region in the US I think he would do very very well
I don't think that people are struggling so much because each character is that complicated, but rather that they're each so different from one another that you have to be a master at several different playstyles. I've personally been struggling with Squirtle because I'm not used to having such stubby range with no projectile, which forces me to approach match ups against swordsmen differently then I've had to with any of my past mains or secondaries. Meanwhile a lot of players who are more far skilled more then I are uncomfortable with Charizard because they're used to playing safer characters and don't know how to think like a superheavy.I don't really get why people keep saying Pokemon Trainer is hard. Besides Ivysaur, the pokemon's individual kit is simplistic and kinda limited. None of the pokemon are really technical, and you only really need to know only some parts of their gameplan since there is no penalty for switching. If you learn Squirtle's low percent combos, Ivysaur, and Charizard's ledge trapping and kill setups, you're pretty much all set.
Would Shulk be technical without Manodo? PT's hard because you must be good with all 3 characters. Say Charizard's going to be juggled and you swap to get out, suddenly you have to kill with Squirtle. A good PT player knows all 3 pokemons' full gameplan and how to manage them cooperatively.I don't really get why people keep saying Pokemon Trainer is hard. Besides Ivysaur, the pokemon's individual kit is simplistic and kinda limited. None of the pokemon are really technical, and you only really need to know only some parts of their gameplan since there is no penalty for switching. If you learn Squirtle's low percent combos, Ivysaur, and Charizard's ledge trapping and kill setups, you're pretty much all set.
I understand that definitely and I don’t think PT is by any means an easy character. There are a ton of players who have one main and two secondaries though that they can play optimally with. If you take that same mindset to PT I don’t know why they would be so much harder to learn than three separate characters. I know you have to learn their synergies and when to use which Pokémon and in what situations to use which Pokémon but I feel like that would just come with experience. I definitely don’t think they’re a pick up and play character and I haven’t tried learning them so I really don’t have too much basis to go on but they seem like a character that you just need to put a lot of time into matchups as opposed to labbing tech, etc... which is a different type of difficult. I think they have a ton of room to just grow and grow in potential from people playing them more and getting more comfortable with them in tournament
