Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Marmotbro]

It really isn't. It doesn't have a hitbox above him while rising, throwing out any lingering button will beat it. It also loses hard to projectiles and counters.

Yeah it can be gimped, maybe "hard to contest" was the wrong phrase. It is deceptively strong and can drag you down for a suicide pact which can work in chrom's favor if he is ahead.

 

[Vyrnx]

Sorry if this has already been discussed, but I didn't follow pre-release and just started playing

I was wondering if anyone can explain what seems to be a universal change to aerials? It seems that all (or at least most) aerials now have some sort of sweetspot/sourspot mechanic that I can't figure out. e.g. Lucina and Chrom's fairs deal two different amounts of damage that differ by about 1-2%. Roy and Marth have two hits (that by sound effect and location on blade both register as sweetspots) that also deal different amounts of damage, in addition to their regular old sourspots. Sometimes the difference is large--Roy's 'sweetspot' bair can deal either ~15 or ~12 percent, a big difference in terms of killing.

I thought it was a new thing on sword aerials where maybe the middle of the swing dealt more damage, but I can't find a specific part of the hit where this happens. But it's also true for non-swordies: It applies to Samus's bair and weirdly the last hit of fair (can deal either 5.1 or 6%). It also seems to apply to some of Pit's multihits. I realized that the stronger hit is more likely when the opponent is airborne, but this doesn't seem to be 100% true either. Labbing isn't really my thing though, so I'm pretty confused.

 

[Ffamran]

Sorry if this has already been discussed, but I didn't follow pre-release and just started playing

I was wondering if anyone can explain what seems to be a universal change to aerials? It seems that all (or at least most) aerials now have some sort of sweetspot/sourspot mechanic that I can't figure out. e.g. Lucina and Chrom's fairs deal two different amounts of damage that differ by about 1-2%. Roy and Marth have two hits (that by sound effect and location on blade both register as sweetspots) that also deal different amounts of damage, in addition to their regular old sourspots. Sometimes the difference is large--Roy's 'sweetspot' bair can deal either ~15 or ~12 percent, a big difference in terms of killing.

I thought it was a new thing on sword aerials where maybe the middle of the swing dealt more damage, but I can't find a specific part of the hit where this happens. But it's also true for non-swordies: It applies to Samus's bair and weirdly the last hit of fair (can deal either 5.1 or 6%). It also seems to apply to some of Pit's multihits. I realized that the stronger hit is more likely when the opponent is airborne, but this doesn't seem to be 100% true either. Labbing isn't really my thing though, so I'm pretty confused.

Aerials out of hops have a x0.85 modifier applied to them. In a 1v1, no items match, it more or less evens out the x1.2 modifier applied to all moves.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Sorry if this has already been discussed, but I didn't follow pre-release and just started playing

I was wondering if anyone can explain what seems to be a universal change to aerials? It seems that all (or at least most) aerials now have some sort of sweetspot/sourspot mechanic that I can't figure out. e.g. Lucina and Chrom's fairs deal two different amounts of damage that differ by about 1-2%. Roy and Marth have two hits (that by sound effect and location on blade both register as sweetspots) that also deal different amounts of damage, in addition to their regular old sourspots. Sometimes the difference is large--Roy's 'sweetspot' bair can deal either ~15 or ~12 percent, a big difference in terms of killing.

I thought it was a new thing on sword aerials where maybe the middle of the swing dealt more damage, but I can't find a specific part of the hit where this happens. But it's also true for non-swordies: It applies to Samus's bair and weirdly the last hit of fair (can deal either 5.1 or 6%). It also seems to apply to some of Pit's multihits. I realized that the stronger hit is more likely when the opponent is airborne, but this doesn't seem to be 100% true either. Labbing isn't really my thing though, so I'm pretty confused.

What you might be talking about is the SH damage decrease. Basically all short hop aerials in this game suffer a damage reduction now. It's in the games own help menu, actually, I'd give that section a look-over.

 

[Nu~]

If there's any character that's going to be a huge headache for the Belmonts, I actually think it's Mega Man.

Against rushdown characters, there's going to be a clear sense of who's doing well. Belmonts want to keep opponent out, rushdown characters want to get in.

But Mega Man operates at a similar effective range as the Belmonts, only with a faster ranged option in pellets to stuff the whip. His superior mobility means escaping to platforms or into the air comes at a risk, and leaves them vulnerable to up air in a bad way. And if the Belmonts are off stage, their overall terrible recovery leaves them more susceptible to Mega Man's projectile edge guards than anyone else).

I was actually inclined to believe that it'd be the other way around, given the anti projectile properties of whip. Don't the belmonts have higher priority projectiles too?

Even the belmont's dair has something silly: it bounces off of weak projectiles as if they were a hurtbox and nullifies them

 

[Emblem Lord]

If there's any character that's going to be a huge headache for the Belmonts, I actually think it's Mega Man.

Against rushdown characters, there's going to be a clear sense of who's doing well. Belmonts want to keep opponent out, rushdown characters want to get in.

But Mega Man operates at a similar effective range as the Belmonts, only with a faster ranged option in pellets to stuff the whip. His superior mobility means escaping to platforms or into the air comes at a risk, and leaves them vulnerable to up air in a bad way. And if the Belmonts are off stage, their overall terrible recovery leaves them more susceptible to Mega Man's projectile edge guards than anyone else).

PREACH!!!

This match is tough for Belmonts in my experience.

 

[Rizen]

Right now he is arguably in the top three. Once people get better at the game I feel that would change, he has a lot of matchups that mess him up.


Also whoops ParanoidDrone, i meant to say attacks not aerials, my B. Chrom is really good because he is a fast as **** sword boy who doesn't have to space, has easy to hit kill moves and everything he does hurts. His recovery isn't as bad as a lot of people thought, its hard to contest.

I agree Chrom and Roy's recoveries are hard to contest. If you don't gimp them outright you have a very good chance of being swatted offstage by Bair or caught in upB. They're scary offstage.

I picked up after struggling to reconnect with and after having mained all the Links at some point in time.

Here's why I think Toon Link very well might be the best of the 3 objectively, or at the very least, is being slept on hard compared to his counterparts. (Understandably so, given that they both had a lot of hype going into Ult, but hype doesn't equate to being the best)

• His tilt and jab compliment his playstyle. He doesn't want to be up close, and all his tilts are fast 'get off me' options to ensure that you have room to breathe if someone gets too close for comfort. Jab connects perfectly due to the new jab mechanics so it's also safe for a quick capitalization on shield drops. Generally you won't use his grounded close range options much, but they do their job well. I don't feel like any of them are a detriment to use, or have major drawbacks, like Link's ftilt (endlag) or Young Link's rapid jab (leaves you wide open for punish if shielded).
• Spin Attack is amazing. It's not quite as free a 'get off me' button as Zelda's neutral b, but just like Young Link this one will catch the shield drops of people who underestimate it. It has range so that you will want to use Spin Attack over any tilts at higher percents simply for the increased damage and knockback. The lingering hitbox is also great for catching dodges and rolls. This is all just grounded, too. Aerial spin attack can be used to edgeguard. If you go off stage and miss your mark, you can up b facing away from ledge and still make it back, even from a pretty respectable distance below the stage. The lingering hitbox sucks up enemies very well and Toon Link's size and speed mean you risk very little for going off to begin with, so the Spin Attack is just an added safety net and tool. Also, grounded spin attack always launches the enemy the direction you're facing, which has a ton of utility in practice. Seriously, the versatility of this one move is insane.
• Aerials. This is a big deal with Young and Toon, so here's my take on Toon's. His up air is better than Young Links simply for the kill power he has over Young. Young Link's up air is still fantastic, but Toon has the same lingering hitbox with better kill power. Sure, the range is marginally smaller, but in my experience that hasn't mattered at all since Toon's jumps are more than good enough to make up for it. Forward Air and Down Air are where things change the most and are the most arguable. TL Forward Air: Very fast, very strong. Single hit, so you won't be catching airdodges with this. However, it being single hit and fast means you can act out of it before Young Link can with his. You commit less, but you still get plenty for hitting it. Toon Link wants his fair to shield pressure and to kill, and it does those both well. With a bomb on shield you can Fair to hit the shield and catch it with fair. In fact, you even have enough drift and time to move after fair that, in my experience at least, I can drift back after catching the bomb and throw it again. This can lead to conditioning on how to approach the shield, you can start to mix things up with grabs and lingering moves to catch shield drops. Fair also kills reliably, which is always nice to have. Young Link's fair kills too, but I feel more comfortable fishing for a single hit fair (which can be linked after a bomb hit, even) to close a stock. The hitbox on Toon Link's fair is also rising from below, which I feel is a boon above Young Links. Young may have trouble connecting his Fair against smaller opponents or people who tend to hug the ground more with their animations, whereas Toon Link can hit a much wider range of people.
• Down Air is maybe better on Young overall, but I don't think Toon's is bad as a result. It's different, and has some unique attributes to set it apart. To my knowledge, you can still use bomb catching tech to down air and save yourself from SDing by timing the explosion. That means you have a spike that Young Link doesn't, with a much faster fall speed, but also a way to work around the suicide part. It also can be great to catch ledge getups. Bombs are already a great ledge pressure tool, but if you catch someone in a zair drop bomb you can easily land a dair that will close their stock or dish some painful damage. No need to go off stage either, just above it since the bomb will bring them to you just enough.
• Nair is also quite different so it's hard to compare Toon Link's directly to Youngs. I like both, but Toon's trades landing utility and combo flow for better damage, as well as a back-hitting hitbox. In 4, I felt nair was very awkward on Toon Link and it's one of the things that turned me off from him. In ult however, it has much better hitboxes and can hit enemies much better when shorthopped. I think Toon Link's nair may be weaker when directly compared to Youngs, but Toon Link's nair still does wonders with his bomb setups and is fast enough that you can mix and match combinations of bombs, aerials, bomb drops, drifting, etc to do many things against enemies.
• Toon Link's air speed is worse than Young Link, but he is faster on the ground and honestly doesn't have that bad air speed anyway. That said I think the difference between the two in practice is mostly marginal but still, I think Toon's improved speed helps with the next big thing:
• The specials. The crux of Toon Link has to be his projectiles. I think he relies more on these as a whole than any other Link, easily. That's a good thing if you ask me. While Young Link excels better with close range stuff, I think Toon feels more 'minmaxxed' toward his zoning. All of his projectiles are amazing.
• Arrows: While Young Links fire arrows have a lot of hype and are undeniably great, Toon's are also really excellent for shutting down other people. They can be rapid-fired and I tend to use them frequently to completely shut down the charges of characters like Robin, Samus, and to overwhelm other, slower projectile based characters like Simon. It can be incredibly disruptive to their gameplans and since Toon Link is so fast and has 3 great projectiles, the arrows (and boomerang) can swing the camp wars in his favor very easily. His size and speed are also huge boosts to this strategy.
• Boomerang is pretty straightforward, but I will add that it's a very viable close range option too. You can get a fair off of a boomerang hit up close at very high percents, I've closed stocks more than I thought I would with close range boomerang followups.
• Bombs. Bombs are the bread and butter of Toon Link. While Links are, at least in my opinion, gimmicky, Toon's are as reliable and core to his gameplay as ever. Basically, if you fought a great TL in 4, or watched one, you know what Toon Link can do with his bombs. Quite possibly one of the most versatile tools in the entire game, Toon Link has so many different options with his bombs. To name a few, you can zair drop all over a stage like you're playing mini Snake, you can dominate the neutral with bomb throws and bomb catches to keep your opponent at your wavelength, you can (and should) cover your landing with them, you can get followups from bomb hits and kill confirms, you can hold bombs to escape potentially deadly enemy setups (like rapidjabs at high percents, or 2+ hit moves that kill at the end), you can shut down enemy projectiles like Simon's cross or K Rool's blunderbuss cannonball, the list goes on and on.
• Fsmash. I hear a lot that Toon Link's is "worse, but not bad" than Young Link's fsmash. I... don't agree. I think it's just as good, honestly. Yeah, Young Link's fsmash is good, but Toon Link's is also quite good. Just because he lost the insane fsmash he had before doesn't mean this one isn't as good. I think it fits him better not just aesthetically but for his playstyle as well. Like all his tilts and close range options suggest, Toon Link doesn't want to be up close for any longer than he needs to. Fsmash is now a single upward slash. In practice you'll find it sends him a bit forward when he throws it out, and you'll also notice it has deceptively good range. It can catch people landing and doesn't hurt half as bad to whiff as Young Link's does, whose Fsmash is so commital you may as well let go of the controller if you miss landing it. Toon Link's pivot fsmash is one of my favorites so far and a seriously great option he has to cover himself with. You can very safely and consistently retreat behind a wall of bombs and a returning boomerang and pressure with a pivot fsmash to anyone who tries to rush you down. It hurts, and it kills when it should. No complaints from me, I like it a lot.
• Down Smash and up smash are also good, fast and short kill moves when you need them to, not much to add.

tl;dr: Toon Link, to me, seems the best defined Link in terms of playstyle matching his moveset. You want to move fast, throw ****, get wild with your bombs when you need to, fish for your kill confirms, get out. You also have plenty of tools to ensure you can always retreat, proceed to throw more ****, disrupt anyone who tries to do the same, and you also have tools to deal with people who try to get in your face. Toon Link has a set objective and everything in his kit is used to its' fullest. Like I said before, I feel he's the most "min maxed" Link, he puts all his chips into one direction and runs with it, and does it well. I personally think Toon Link is very slept on at the moment, and lacks as many downsides as his biggest competition, Young Link. He has kill power spread out that Young Link wishes he had, he has better synergy with his bombs, better ground speed, etc. I don't think the gap is huge, but I do think Toon is a bit better overall. I think if you try to play Young Link like Toon Link you will want to just play Toon Link instead, and if you try to play Toon like Young it just won't work, so there's that for anyone who might think the two can copypaste their playstyles.

toon link's sword swing taunt is >>>>>>>>>>>> than any of Young Link's taunts too, since you can cancel it the end animation and just endlessly swing like a madman, whereas Young Link's milk taunt got gutted of what made it great to begin with


edit: How could i forget, Toon Link's throws. Down throw connects to back air at low percents on most characters and works at mid percents on big or heavy characters, which is nice. Also, back throw is a great kill throw and definitely a big boon Toon has over his counterparts.

Edit 2: Here's the best TL and YL vid I can find right now, I think it demonstrates the differences I was trying to explain very well. Maybe I should've just linked this instead of trying to explain stuff I clearly am not an expert in lmao

I agree is the weakest of the three but am not sure who's better between and . The more I play the tighter his gameplan seems.

YL's landing game is fantastic; he has 6 frames of lag on key aerials. YL can combo off Fair 1 at low %s, late Nair until high %s and Bair 1 at every %. You get 20-30% off every combo. Bair>Usmash does 22.8 damage. Soft Nair>Dtilt>SH Nair does 30 %. Nair is an incredible tool for starting and breaking combos hitting f4-28 with 6 f landing lag (if this is accurate). Fair hits fine for 16.8% damage both hits (TL's 15.6 but in one hit so it's stronger) and several things combo into it at mid-high %s. Bair 1 has set KB. IMO YL has better aerials than TL. I never liked Dair spiking; a spike at the start of a move that lasts around 70 frames is not very useful. I'd much rather have a Dair that bounces and hits upward harder the first frame. TL's Fair and Uair are better but I'd take YL's other aerials.

For ground moves YL is fairly quick, although a f6 jab as his fastest option means critters out-button him. If jab hits shield you can simply not go into a rapid jab. Ftilt's f10 and hits above YL, below ledges and kills. Dtilt f8 (vs SSB4 Link's f12) combos into Nair and Fair at higher %s. Utilt's not that good but safer than Usmash. DA f8, much better than Link's, kills at high %s off the side and is good for sending opponents offstage.
YL's smashes are strong and make up for his otherwise subpar power. Fsmash is a hard read but strong. Usmash lasts a long time if wiffed but can be comboed into easily. It hits past BF's lower platforms, barely. Dsmash is by far YL's best smash coming out f9 with both hits sending opponents at a low angle like Link's Dsmash 2nd hit. It's the reason MUs like Chrom and Belmonts aren't too bad.

Grab's slow at f12 yet good when pivoted. Dthrow combos into Nair at low-mid %s (for 19.2%) and Uair higher but isn't the best kill combo because opponents start escaping at high %s. Uair has a more limited range for combos too, oddly.

Bombs and boomerang of course both combo. If YL's caught in a rapid jab or such and the returning boomerang hits YL can combo it into Nair. Boomerang offstage when recovering combos into upB. Bombs have very low KBG, combo into Fsmash at 0, Usmash/DA at low-mid %s and Nair/Fair at high %s. Bomb>Usmash is 28.1% and bomb>Fair is 25.4%. Arrows are quick but not good outside chip damage. YL's projectiles are quicker than TL's, which is a trade off for controlling space. YL can plant bombs on the ground where TL's bombs always explode on contact but YL's bombs get bounced back by other projectiles and TL's stop them. It's another trade off.

tl;dr YL's damage wracking is insane. He struggles to seal stocks if he can't land a smash and can have a hard to vs fast disjointed characters like Cloud and Chrom. Overall YL feels very solid and I doubt he'll drop off as people learn to play the game; he might even improve. IMO he can hold a candle to TL. YL is probably a high but not top tier.

 

[Zoa]

Incineroar sucks.

 

[Yonder]

So, I was skipping around on this stream with M2K and Salem, and I came across a very interesting opinion at the one hour 17 min mark...

"Who is the best overall?" Salem says...

"Just Luigi".

Due to...

-12-14 frame d tilt ledge trap
-Down b windbox pulls you in/safety upo landing with it
-"death grab" that kills at 0 or a specific percent, like "wobbling"
-amazing dash dance
-teather doesn't matter

M2k disagrees, but says he's "very, very good"

So that's an interesting opinion for sure. I don't think I agree, but thoughts?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nqLXRipF7XQ

Stream for reference. My timestamp may not be correct cause it keeps changing but anyways...look at the start of their Shulk vs Pichu match for reference.

Are we all underrating Luigi then? He's usually thrown in mid tier by everyone. I don't think he's the best but I saw that Elegant vs Tatonator match and Stroder pull off the same 0-death combos, with no room for escape if done right. They are extremely under the radar atm though.

Luigi is gonna get grab nerfed tbh again so use his secret weapon while it lasts.

 

[J0eyboi]

-amazing dash dance

This point interests me. Looking at my data, what I know about Smash 4, what I know about Ultimate, and a couple of other things, I see nothing to suggest that Luigi's dash dance is particularly notable or even average. I'm curious as to why Salem thinks Luigi's dash dance is good.

 

[Yonder]

This point interests me. Looking at my data, what I know about Smash 4, and a couple of other things, I see nothing to suggest that Luigi's dash dance is particularly notable or even average. I'm curious as to why Salem thinks Luigi's dash dance is good.

Sadly no details on a lot of points, m2k explained it while salem just said he was the best verbally. I found that odd too.

 

[meleebrawler]

I was actually inclined to believe that it'd be the other way around, given the anti projectile properties of whip. Don't the belmonts have higher priority projectiles too?

Even the belmont's dair has something silly: it bounces off of weak projectiles as if they were a hurtbox and nullifies them

From what I can see most of the ranged options the Belmonts use have notable startup that could get constantly stuffed and interrupted by a stream of buster shots. The only non-shield option fast enough to stop them would be their little Super Castlevania whip twirl.

Actually, has anyone tried using that move for anything? I don't hear much about it at all.

 

[Deleted member]

I will talk about Toon link Little Mac and Sanic
Because that's all i have business talking about so here's what i learned

- Toon Link's up air is what I think is the best juggling move in the game so far and it's sweet spot hangs around for far longer than it did in Smash 4
- Little Mac's Dashing up smash is super good and his ground game is even better than it was in Smash 4
- Sonic feels more like Fox and Falco than Smash 4 Sonic
- Toon Link's Down air is super confusing if you're super close to the opponent it meteor smashes and lets you jump out of it but if you activate it far away from the enemy it will send them flying up and you won't be able to cancel it
- Little Mac's Aerials can actually give him a little spacing so he can't get smothered in the air
- Toon Link's forward smash and back air are his best kill moves

Things I've learned for other characters but take it with a grain of salt

- Bayonetta virtually cannot ladder anyone anymore but her smash your attacks do remain as probably the best in the game
-Kirby is the most buffed character by far in this game
- Mk might have gotten his knockback increased on his side special it feels like he did but he may not have I can't find any sources say if either are true

 

[Zoa]

Actually had someone explain this, but there's no DD in the game. It's just a much easier foxtrot. Hopefully we can fix this so there is no misconception about what it truly is.

Incineroar sucks.

Not sure why this warned. It's a competitive character analysis. My analysis with Incineroar is he sucks. That is my impression. The post lacks an explanation as to why, but it's not intended to be spam.

Posts that are irrelevant to or inappropriate for the topic of discussion are considered spam, including off-topic posts/threads, posts with no substantive content, posts that simply restate things that have already been said, and posts that include questions that have already been answered.

So I guess an explanation, because it isn't substantive enough, is due then?

-The character has a terrible neutral. Slow air speed, air acceleration, and what seems to be a bad drift. Incineroar has a bad fair for capitalizing off in a game where punishes are weak already past low percents. Lack of ways to deal with pressure and forcing the opponent to do anything make Incineroar have one of the worst neutrals in the cast.
-One of the absolute worst movement speeds in the air and especially on the ground. His movement overall is bottom three. Maybe even the absolute worst.
-His recovery is terrible even with mix ups. Trying to do side special has considerable ending lag that will put Incineroar lower than when the attack was executed before you can do anything again. His up special provides poor recovery as well given how little distance it covers diagonally and horizontally. I've had him not grab the ledge despite being a foot away from it. The angle of Cross Chop leaves much to be desired, and whiffing with it is basically an SD waiting to happen. You can typically expect an Incineroar to recover low because of how bad his recovery is. One hit and he's unable to do anything to get back to the stage.
-Incineroar has extremely noticeable lag on several of his attacks. Grounded especially. He lacks a good footsies option to poke with, and coupled with poor movement speed, even capitalizing off any hit can be hard at times.

I guess that will pass for an explanation?

 

[SapphSabre777]

I have to write this post in total frustration right now. After 2 weeks of doing my best, labbing everything in my mind to figure out anything, I can deduce, without a shadow of a doubt, that is not just the worst character in the game, but he's downright unplayable and deserving of his own tier, he's that bad.

- He has the de facto worst neutral in the game, bar none. Approaching even once with him equals death. Little guy just doesn't have any range whatsoever on any moves he has, and has to settle for trades in a game where even one disadvantage state is lethal. He has zero buttons that outbutton other character's buttons, only situations where it is applicable, because his range is garbage and he has no buttons he can use fast in the air other than B-Air, which STILL gets beat by everything. When moves like tilts are stuffing Dash Attack where other DAs win out, and when his intangible U-Tilt gets stuffed and beat like it is nothing, and he can't use B-Air because he gets outranged by even a blade of grass, he literally has nothing. When you get outbuttoned by even , you are your own special brand of awful.

- His advantage state actually got severely nerfed from 4. His throw combos, combos from tilts that actually function and made you scared of him up close? Gone. F-Throw is a joke on BF because you land on the platform and ruin the entire grab all together (bar Final Cutter). Tilts like U-Tilt and such are guttered in low %s to the point where he can only get one or two hits at a time. He lacks either/or the range or the aerial speed needed to continue combos, if he even gets the chance, and his KB values and such got guttered to where he cannot combo as much anymore. D-Air is a total joke in that it has laughable spike at the end, and has pathetic range at that, leading him to being punished FOR edgeguarding most of the time. Inhale and Copy Abilities are a joke where even a single jab or hit causes you to lose it, wasting your entire time completely. Whereas every other character can at least maintain an advantage state and get major conversions from it, has to win with the worst neutral with arguably one of the worst advantage states, in that he has to win over and over and over again where even other lower-tier characters can seal stocks in two or three exchanges.

- And let's not forget that subpar disadvantage state. Sure, having 5 mid-air jumps is something many people would gush for, but that's all he has going for him bar the Final Cutter rising hitbox buff. Because he has no fast buttons in the air from ledge, because he has no range, and because he has no way to fend off the opponent, even with parries in tow, it's a wing and a prayer for Kirby to ever get back to neutral. He has no clear-cut way to fend off any character with their offensive pressure, only maybe a panic option in attempting to press a button, but can't because Kirby's aerial frame data is pure cancer.

Combine all these factors, and is not just unviable, he's unplayable and unviable even at the lowest levels of competition, a character that even rivals his Melee iteration on how god-awful he is right now. If he has any chance of being viable in the future, he needs not just a single change, but a complete overhaul of his character. Don't pick him up. Don't. Or don't ever considering the possibility of all this never getting changed.

 

[Marmotbro]

I have to write this post in total frustration right now. After 2 weeks of doing my best, labbing everything in my mind to figure out anything, I can deduce, without a shadow of a doubt, that is not just the worst character in the game, but he's downright unplayable and deserving of his own tier, he's that bad.

- He has the de facto worst neutral in the game, bar none. Approaching even once with him equals death. Little guy just doesn't have any range whatsoever on any moves he has, and has to settle for trades in a game where even one disadvantage state is lethal. He has zero buttons that outbutton other character's buttons, only situations where it is applicable, because his range is garbage and he has no buttons he can use fast in the air other than B-Air, which STILL gets beat by everything. When moves like tilts are stuffing Dash Attack where other DAs win out, and when his intangible U-Tilt gets stuffed and beat like it is nothing, and he can't use B-Air because he gets outranged by even a blade of grass, he literally has nothing. When you get outbuttoned by even , you are your own special brand of awful.

- His advantage state actually got severely nerfed from 4. His throw combos, combos from tilts that actually function and made you scared of him up close? Gone. F-Throw is a joke on BF because you land on the platform and ruin the entire grab all together (bar Final Cutter). Tilts like U-Tilt and such are guttered in low %s to the point where he can only get one or two hits at a time. He lacks either/or the range or the aerial speed needed to continue combos, if he even gets the chance, and his KB values and such got guttered to where he cannot combo as much anymore. D-Air is a total joke in that it has laughable spike at the end, and has pathetic range at that, leading him to being punished FOR edgeguarding most of the time. Inhale and Copy Abilities are a joke where even a single jab or hit causes you to lose it, wasting your entire time completely. Whereas every other character can at least maintain an advantage state and get major conversions from it, has to win with the worst neutral with arguably one of the worst advantage states, in that he has to win over and over and over again where even other lower-tier characters can seal stocks in two or three exchanges.

- And let's not forget that subpar disadvantage state. Sure, having 5 mid-air jumps is something many people would gush for, but that's all he has going for him bar the Final Cutter rising hitbox buff. Because he has no fast buttons in the air from ledge, because he has no range, and because he has no way to fend off the opponent, even with parries in tow, it's a wing and a prayer for Kirby to ever get back to neutral. He has no clear-cut way to fend off any character with their offensive pressure, only maybe a panic option in attempting to press a button, but can't because Kirby's aerial frame data is pure cancer.

Combine all these factors, and is not just unviable, he's unplayable and unviable even at the lowest levels of competition, a character that even rivals his Melee iteration on how god-awful he is right now. If he has any chance of being viable in the future, he needs not just a single change, but a complete overhaul of his character. Don't pick him up. Don't. Or don't ever considering the possibility of all this never getting changed.

Yeah I feel for you, puffball main. Every time I play or play against he feels pathetic. I feel like him being bad is almost on purpose. Like they were trying to balance Copy and so **** all over him. Even though Copy isn't even good. The only character I consider to be nearly as bad is just because of how many characters invalidate him and the inclusion of and means there is no reason to play him.

 

[SapphSabre777]

Yeah I feel for you, puffball main. Every time I play or play against he feels pathetic. I feel like him being bad is almost on purpose. Like they were trying to balance Copy and so **** all over him. Even though Copy isn't even good. The only character I consider to be nearly as bad is just because of how many characters invalidate him and the inclusion of and means there is no reason to play him.

at the very least has buttons he can use, tilts that have solid range and speed, and various other qualities that, ignoring and 's inclusion, at least make him a character that functions, just overshadowed. has literally nothing going for him. I can't in conscious faith of wanting to play the game and playing to win at the same time, play him right now. He's utterly broken in the worst ways imaginable, and worthy of his own tier on how colossally abysmal he is as a character. If there's any character that needs buffs, the puffball should be the balance team's main target of concern. Otherwise, he's DOA.

 

[NuzTheMonkey]

Hey, what’s up with Faldo and ROB? I see a lot of people praising them but am unsure why.

 

[Rizen]

is one of several characters who feels like trash but then he starts wrecking you. It shows how balanced this game is that even "bad" characters are scary. Revenge is a strong asset that keeps him from being terrible. I feel like he'll be a low tier.

does seem bad but IDK the extent of it.

I get the hype but think its weight and self damage are a big downside. In a game where bad characters can wreck you with 3 neutral wins being so light makes a difference. Land a pivot Fsmash or grab and all Pichu's hard work is made up for. Human error's a factor even at top levels of play.

I don't get the comparison of to . How is Mac invalidated by the pokemon?

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah I feel for you, puffball main. Every time I play or play against he feels pathetic. I feel like him being bad is almost on purpose. Like they were trying to balance Copy and so **** all over him. Even though Copy isn't even good. The only character I consider to be nearly as bad is just because of how many characters invalidate him and the inclusion of and means there is no reason to play him.

Please never compare Little mac to Kirby Little mac is way!! different than those two characters if you know how to use him Little Mac isn't someone you can just run up to and body with it involves skill knowing when to come in and come out his recovery may be bad but it's not as awkward as Incineroars is and for Kirby he's definitely the worst in the game but he's not that bad his forward tilt and down air are still serviceable moves and down throw can combo into up tilt and copy wasn't nerfed that bad you still have to take a mini beating to lose it and 75% of the time you don't even need it and now side B charges faster

 

[Marmotbro]

I don't get the comparison of to . How is Mac invalidated by the pokemon?

As someone who played a lot of Mac, is just Mac with aerials. Don't sleep on , his only real issue is his low speed. He has the single strongest throw in the game (backthrow) and using his counter he can do upwards of 75% on a single hit. His recovery isn't as bad as people thought too, as you can sideB and then UpB.

 

[boysilver400]

I don't have the game yet, but from what I've seen of in a few tournaments, he does seem slightly better than his smash 4 counterpart, and his players don't seem to have that many combo issues. It's his lack of kill power and mobility that's a problem. His glaring issues are still there, unfortunately, but I don't think he's the worst. Bottom 10, maybe, but right now I'd say is the worst, but even he and the koopalings look better.

That being said, I wholeheartedly agree that he needs to be paid attention to when it's time for patches, 'cause he very well could become the worst if he doesn't get change. The last thing we need is another Jigglypuff moment during Sm4sh's era.

 

[Fastblade5035]

On the topic of objectively disappointing characters I'd say these are the biggest let downs to me so far:

- Definitely not the worst, but everything I see and hear seems like he's a functional version of what he was supposed to be in 4. Which is fine, but he seems pretty barebones average in a 74 character game and average doesn't really cut it when even objectively mediocre characters like Incineroar can still be terrifying in more than a few situations. Speaking of...

- Honestly the biggest enigma to me in the entire roster. Is he deceptively good or am I just bad? He gets in my head so bad, yet I can easily point out, recognize, and try to take advantage of his many weaknesses. Everything I see from everyone else seems mostly the same sentiment as mine; objectively mediocre, but terrifying when playing him. Still, I have him here because objectivity > anecdotal experience

- I'm not sure what Wolf exactly is supposed to do? His neutral B is excellent, but that's about the only move he has that I respect. Everything else is fine, but he seems too slow to really link many things together, he isn't half as bonkers strong as Incineroar, and has to be in the top 10 worst recoveries club with said wrestler cat. Maybe not outright terrible but he doesn't seem to mesh well to me right now.

- Sorta like Jr, I don't think he's the worst, nor is he outright bad, but his recovery really, really, really blows, and unlike Incineroar, Chrom, and others in the bottom 10 recovery club, he doesn't seem like he makes up for it much? Sort of like Wolf, although Doc at least has (mostly) Mario's moveset so he flows a bit more naturally as a result. Still, he's slow, has bad air speed, may as well have the worst recovery in the entire game, I don't think he can be objectively very good with all that.

- Ouch, is really all I can say. He just seems totally gutted from his 4 self. The tricks and setups that made him somewhat viable, or at least entertaining, are gone. He has some buffs, sure, but I'm not sure what his gameplan is anymore. He just seems like he tries to go for the same things over and over, failing each time and having to accept his death routinely. Maybe there's untapped potential here I haven't seen, but he seems comepletely aimless right now and doesn't have an inherently strong moveset like Doc, or even a functional one like Jr. does now.

- Kirby has always surprised me as being so bad because he's honestly a blast for me to play with. I even mained him in Brawl, but alas. I feel no need to elaborate when others above me have done a far better job than I could even attempt to.

 

[Marmotbro]

- Honestly the biggest enigma to me in the entire roster. Is he deceptively good or am I just bad? He gets in my head so bad, yet I can easily point out, recognize, and try to take advantage of his many weaknesses. Everything I see from everyone else seems mostly the same sentiment as mine; objectively mediocre, but terrifying when playing him. Still, I have him here because objectivity > anecdotal experience

gameplan is weird as ****. He wants to bait and punish you, he can get you within kill percent in less then 5 hits. He is incredibly polarized, but i think for once a character like that is balanced. You need to take your time against him but he is a solid B tier.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Incineroar's biggest strengths lie in factors outside of the game. More than any character in the game he is designed to make you fear him and capitalize on that human aspect. No one wants to deal with a revenge boosted Incineroar. You either run away for a daunting whole minute or directly challenge him to get rid of it, the latter being what he exactly wants you to do.

I don't know where he'll end up, but he's a bonafide grappler. He embodies those exact mind games and mix ups traditional fighting game grapplers live for.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't have the game yet, but from what I've seen of in a few tournaments, he does seem slightly better than his smash 4 counterpart, and his players don't seem to have that many combo issues. It's his lack of kill power and mobility that's a problem. His glaring issues are still there, unfortunately, but I don't think he's the worst. Bottom 10, maybe, but right now I'd say is the worst, but even he and the koopalings look better.

That being said, I wholeheartedly agree that he needs to be paid attention to when it's time for patches, 'cause he very well could become the worst if he doesn't get change. The last thing we need is another Jigglypuff moment during Sm4sh's era.

I just used Kirby and Bowser Jr in a few matches Kirby got juggled and didn't put really any damage Bowser Jr didn't get juggled nearly as often and he was able to put up damage and had decent kill options so think Bowser Jr is league's ahead of Kirby

 

[Luigifan18]

As someone who played a lot of Mac, is just Mac with aerials. Don't sleep on , his only real issue is his low speed. He has the single strongest throw in the game (backthrow) and using his counter he can do upwards of 75% on a single hit. His recovery isn't as bad as people thought too, as you can sideB and then UpB.

By that logic, Little Mac is Incineroar, but trading useful aerials for ground speed that not only isn't complete ****, but is the third-fastest in the game (behind Captain Falcon and Sonic).

 

[Gunla]

I'll write something more in-depth soon enough on Incineroar (I'm working on playing him as well as Ike/Chrom), but he definitely feels like he's going to be solid as a CP at the least (and can prey off of inexperience fairly well from a theoretical standpoint). Revenge & Alolan Whip as a whole kill earlier than they honestly should on a lot of legal stages and he's definitely much more momentum based, but his mobility weakness is fairly straightforward to exploit with zoners.

I think he's a solid example of how the viability ceiling seems to have dropped in some regards, too. He has fairly obvious weaknesses but his ability to tack on damage and take stocks rather early makes him a dangerous opponent - but at the same time, outside of just how much Revenge can scale, he feels like a decently balanced and polarized character as Marmotbro pointed out.

 

[Luigifan18]

I have to write this post in total frustration right now. After 2 weeks of doing my best, labbing everything in my mind to figure out anything, I can deduce, without a shadow of a doubt, that is not just the worst character in the game, but he's downright unplayable and deserving of his own tier, he's that bad.

- He has the de facto worst neutral in the game, bar none. Approaching even once with him equals death. Little guy just doesn't have any range whatsoever on any moves he has, and has to settle for trades in a game where even one disadvantage state is lethal. He has zero buttons that outbutton other character's buttons, only situations where it is applicable, because his range is garbage and he has no buttons he can use fast in the air other than B-Air, which STILL gets beat by everything. When moves like tilts are stuffing Dash Attack where other DAs win out, and when his intangible U-Tilt gets stuffed and beat like it is nothing, and he can't use B-Air because he gets outranged by even a blade of grass, he literally has nothing. When you get outbuttoned by even , you are your own special brand of awful.

- His advantage state actually got severely nerfed from 4. His throw combos, combos from tilts that actually function and made you scared of him up close? Gone. F-Throw is a joke on BF because you land on the platform and ruin the entire grab all together (bar Final Cutter). Tilts like U-Tilt and such are guttered in low %s to the point where he can only get one or two hits at a time. He lacks either/or the range or the aerial speed needed to continue combos, if he even gets the chance, and his KB values and such got guttered to where he cannot combo as much anymore. D-Air is a total joke in that it has laughable spike at the end, and has pathetic range at that, leading him to being punished FOR edgeguarding most of the time. Inhale and Copy Abilities are a joke where even a single jab or hit causes you to lose it, wasting your entire time completely. Whereas every other character can at least maintain an advantage state and get major conversions from it, has to win with the worst neutral with arguably one of the worst advantage states, in that he has to win over and over and over again where even other lower-tier characters can seal stocks in two or three exchanges.

- And let's not forget that subpar disadvantage state. Sure, having 5 mid-air jumps is something many people would gush for, but that's all he has going for him bar the Final Cutter rising hitbox buff. Because he has no fast buttons in the air from ledge, because he has no range, and because he has no way to fend off the opponent, even with parries in tow, it's a wing and a prayer for Kirby to ever get back to neutral. He has no clear-cut way to fend off any character with their offensive pressure, only maybe a panic option in attempting to press a button, but can't because Kirby's aerial frame data is pure cancer.

Combine all these factors, and is not just unviable, he's unplayable and unviable even at the lowest levels of competition, a character that even rivals his Melee iteration on how god-awful he is right now. If he has any chance of being viable in the future, he needs not just a single change, but a complete overhaul of his character. Don't pick him up. Don't. Or don't ever considering the possibility of all this never getting changed.

The way you write makes you sound like you're getting royally destroyed by the Smoky Progg in World of Light...

 

[Browny]

Incineroar's biggest strengths lie in factors outside of the game. More than any character in the game he is designed to make you fear him and capitalize on that human aspect. No one wants to deal with a revenge boosted Incineroar. You either run away for a daunting whole minute or directly challenge him to get rid of it, the latter being what he exactly wants you to do.

I don't know where he'll end up, but he's a bonafide grappler. He embodies those exact mind games and mix ups traditional fighting game grapplers live for.

Nice, I just wish more people understood that reality.

Its like Sonic, on paper he isn't a very good character. Then you play a sonic who capitalises on your impatience like no theorycraft can ever prepare you for and everything flips upside down.

-

On another note, who is actually responsible for making tier lists this time around? Smashboards is comparatively dead to how it used to be, I wouldn't be surprised if 9/10 top players don't visit here anymore so the 'Back Room' has lost a lot of activity.

I just hope, like I always do, that one day tier lists will be decided using objective measures and standards like all fighting games ever and maybe after 15 or so years of this site existing, the scene can move away from 'rank characters 1-75 and average out, theres the list' with absolutely no regard for results or matchup spreads.

 

[Zoa]

Tell ya what, since you're so happy about infractions, infract this one, too. I'm not posting here again. Great job driving someone away. You must be happy.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'll write something more in-depth soon enough on Incineroar (I'm working on playing him as well as Ike/Chrom), but he definitely feels like he's going to be solid as a CP at the least (and can prey off of inexperience fairly well from a theoretical standpoint). Revenge & Alolan Whip as a whole kill earlier than they honestly should on a lot of legal stages and he's definitely much more momentum based, but his mobility weakness is fairly straightforward to exploit with zoners.

I think he's a solid example of how the viability ceiling seems to have dropped in some regards, too. He has fairly obvious weaknesses but his ability to tack on damage and take stocks rather early makes him a dangerous opponent - but at the same time, outside of just how much Revenge can scale, he feels like a decently balanced and polarized character as Marmotbro pointed out.

Honestly, your second paragraph sounds like it could apply to most heavies, but especially Ganondorf, in the sense that they might be exploitable on paper but if they touch you even once they can blow you up. Makes for super volatile matchups in my experience.

 

[Ffamran]

Stumbled upon this and I think this is the most comprehensive frame data spreadsheet I've seen so far: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...nf1GGIteH35UX3IM7-mnbdG6eE/edit#gid=849055518.

You don't really need to be able to read Japanese to understand what's going on. Just copy one of the headers, use Google Translate, and it should give you something understandable.

Also, I'm not sure if this was discussed already, but apparently knockback is calculated without the x1.2 modifier on 1v1, no items. The x0.85, aerials out of hop modifier does affect knockback, though.

ふっとばし力計算は、攻撃後の相手%も1on1補正が無い場合の数値で計算される。例えば1on1で90%の相手に基礎ダメージ10%の攻撃を当てた時、ダメージ表示では102%になるけど、計算上の相手%は100%として扱われる。

— DRAFIX/ドラフィ (@drafix570) December 19, 2018

KB is calculated perfectly without 1v1 multiplier, even about opponent'%.
If current opponent'% = 90 and hit 10% attack in 1v1, KB calculation use 100%, not 102%

— DRAFIX/ドラフィ (@drafix570) December 19, 2018

Edit: Okay, it's not showing the entire thing, so I embedded the third tweet which has the second bit of info and one in English.

 

[LightLV]

I just used Kirby and Bowser Jr in a few matches Kirby got juggled and didn't put really any damage Bowser Jr didn't get juggled nearly as often and he was able to put up damage and had decent kill options so think Bowser Jr is league's ahead of Kirby

bowser Jr is so far ahead of Kirby it isn't even funny. At least he has a working gameplan.

Kirby is so bad that in this game we might as well just call it "Kirby Tier"

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I just hope, like I always do, that one day tier lists will be decided using objective measures and standards like all fighting games ever and maybe after 15 or so years of this site existing, the scene can move away from 'rank characters 1-75 and average out, theres the list' with absolutely no regard for results or matchup spreads.

I reaaaally don't want to see what it would take to get even half of the match ups in this game agreed upon. Too many variables between what regions have what stages legal, the fact that most characters have at least two playing styles to them (even if they're somewhat similar) and it turns into a lot of "Well X can beat 1 character with 2 character consistently, Y just doesn't play it right" from what I remember seeing before when matchup spreads were attempted back in Brawl.

The people making the lists that are averaged are instructed to take in mind results from all over the place and not just their local region, and they try to have matchups in mind. But there is no way you're going to get consistency. For every Pro that's fairly reasonable you get well... ESAM when it comes to Pikachu.

 

[Ajani]

Stumbled upon this and I think this is the most comprehensive frame data spreadsheet I've seen so far: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...nf1GGIteH35UX3IM7-mnbdG6eE/edit#gid=849055518.

You don't really need to be able to read Japanese to understand what's going on. Just copy one of the headers, use Google Translate, and it should give you something understandable.

Also, I'm not sure if this was discussed already, but apparently knockback is calculated without the x1.2 modifier on 1v1, no items. The x0.85, aerials out of hop modifier does affect knockback, though.

ふっとばし力計算は、攻撃後の相手%も1on1補正が無い場合の数値で計算される。例えば1on1で90%の相手に基礎ダメージ10%の攻撃を当てた時、ダメージ表示では102%になるけど、計算上の相手%は100%として扱われる。

— DRAFIX/ドラフィ (@drafix570) December 19, 2018

KB is calculated perfectly without 1v1 multiplier, even about opponent'%.
If current opponent'% = 90 and hit 10% attack in 1v1, KB calculation use 100%, not 102%

— DRAFIX/ドラフィ (@drafix570) December 19, 2018

Edit: Okay, it's not showing the entire thing, so I embedded the third tweet which has the second bit of info and one in English.

This would be awesome if the user had allowed us access to the sheet. That way we could simply code in an english formula to translate everything

 

[LightLV]

- Honestly the biggest enigma to me in the entire roster. Is he deceptively good or am I just bad? He gets in my head so bad, yet I can easily point out, recognize, and try to take advantage of his many weaknesses. Everything I see from everyone else seems mostly the same sentiment as mine; objectively mediocre, but terrifying when playing him. Still, I have him here because objectivity > anecdotal experience

He's just like Ganondorf and Bowser -- he's extremely punishing, you can be dunking him the whole match, get hit once, and then lose in a single mixup or two.

Characters like this tend to seem either completely overwhelming or absolute trash depending entirely on the matchup. He's the kind of character everyone will agree is bottom tier, but everyone hates to fight, and somehow one always ends up in winners during tournaments.

- I'm not sure what Wolf exactly is supposed to do? His neutral B is excellent, but that's about the only move he has that I respect. Everything else is fine, but he seems too slow to really link many things together, he isn't half as bonkers strong as Incineroar, and has to be in the top 10 worst recoveries club with said wrestler cat. Maybe not outright terrible but he doesn't seem to mesh well to me right now.

His blaster is Godtier, it opens up alot of his gameplan. It's so good that it allows him to play flowchart against most matchups. He's pretty fast too for how powerful his smash attacks are.

Fighting wolf reminds me alot like fighting K Rool : He has one or two moves that can completely dictate the neutral game if your character has trouble dealing with them. If you let him play his way then he's just going to control the pace of the whole match.


-- this character is going to require Smash4 Ike-tier levels of buffing in order to be playable.

It's a unique situation for Kirby. I feel like his actual ATTACKS are completely fine. He's just purely at the mercy of being on the absolute worst end of the physics pool in this engine. His jumps are pathetic, his air speed is abysmal, and his specials are almost ALL high-risk / poor reward with very little practical utility.

Why does hammer have so much startup? Why is it even worse in the air? Why is its turnaround animation so slow? Why does he lose Copy so easy? Why do his grabs try so hard to put you back in neutral? Why can't he properly chase anyone in the air?

the poor puff is just too far below the curve. All it takes to see why Kirby is terrible is to just fight a Yoshi. He's completely ill equipped to do anything about him.

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

Other problem that arises is that balacing is going to be more dificult to the devs this time, only because the powerlevel of the entire cast is more compared to smash 4 and the roster is bigger, you can't say what trait of the character is overtuned or undertuned compared to the rest of the cast because we dont have a definitive best character, the opinions of the majority is that inkling pikachu and chrom are the very best but these three have diferent traits aside from being fast, other characters considered are the belmonts, peach, young link and pichu, so the pool of differences between characters expands, this situation is a bit different from early smash wii u meta in that you could see what characters were clearly better and what tools were overtuned, like diddy Hoo-Ha, sheik needles, luma in general.

 

[S_B]

Other problem that arises is that balacing is going to be more dificult to the devs this time, only because the powerlevel of the entire cast is more compared to smash 4 and the roster is bigger, you can't say what trait of the character is overtuned or undertuned compared to the rest of the cast because we dont have a definitive best character, the opinions of the majority is that inkling pikachu and chrom are the very best but these three have diferent traits aside from being fast, other characters considered are the belmonts, peach, young link and pichu, so the pool of differences between characters expands, this situation is a bit different from early smash wii u meta in that you could see what characters were clearly better and what tools were overtuned, like diddy Hoo-Ha, sheik needles, luma in general.

Also, Snake just won the first SSBU major.

I don't want to see the nerf bat swing prematurely, but it does feel like he gets an awful lot of reward off of grab (guaranteed tech chases) as well as a bit too much stage control for how good his ability to box is.

 

[SiO2]

Also, Snake just won the first SSBU major.

I don't want to see the nerf bat swing prematurely, but it does feel like he gets an awful lot of reward off of grab (guaranteed tech chases) as well as a bit too much stage control for how good his ability to box is.

Snake is beatable with the right character. The ones that MVD played against were not those characters. For example, Mii Gunner has the tools to neutralize Snake's projectile game and counter with her own projectiles.

(Not discrediting MVD mind you, he is an incredibly good player)