Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Myollnir]

Those nerfs are heavily exaggerated.

1) The mechanics of Ultimate has buffed him a lot. He now has a ground speed you have to respect (he didn't get buffed more than the other chars in that department), and the ability to dash cancel is a godsend to a character that utilizes tilts very heavily (yes). Down tilt in particular has it's ability to combo improved (not really), and the nerfs to shielding makes it a good poking tool (albeit not Chrom down tilt levels of good poking). I think the fact that people doesn't put up shielding as often as in SSB4 is a buff more than a nerf, as opponents are no longer inclined to block Kirby's button. (no, Kirby never struggled with shields, most of his stuff is safe on shield including D-Tilt, he loses to hitboxes. and d-tilt only offers reward when it trips, which is 35/40%)
2) As you said before, the up tilt strings is a mere psuedo-counterpick against fastfallers. He does better against them than other low tiers in SSB4, but it is still tricky. In Ultimate, his up tilt has more range (NO)(which compliments the above-mentioned dash canceling) and the increased knockback of the up tilt makes it easier to connect to his other aerials (No, jumps are just faster.), potentially putting offstage (which I will get to later). This makes it more applicable to all matchups on not just fastfallers. (His follow-ups on non-fastallers are the same, he just lost his follow-ups against fastfallers)
3) Down air is actually much more potent in this game due to the mechanic changes, and that is where Kirby's biggest strength is: he has one of the scariest edgeguarding games in the game. Edgeguarding in SSB4 was harder for Kirby as you can airdodge off of everything. In this game, you only have one airdodge, which means that Kirby can infintely followup after your airdodge, which makes down air a frightening option (No, it's a small frame18 hitbox, still loses to attack and airdodge, he just lost the reward on it). If the spike doesn't instantly KO, Kirby can easily insert another one (??? no). Almost all, if not all, does not do very well at all against Kirby offstage (only those who recover low without a disjoint = not a lot). Onstage, Kirby can still easily followup opponents into down air. If they airdodge away, you get a dash attack KO for your troubles. (you have to read it, if they dodge your grab they're out, you have to land a frame18 unsafe move AND get a read to kill at 150% great)
4) Kirby's grab did indeed get nerfed, but grabbing in this game in general is not the best option. This would've been a big blow to him if it was SSB4. Granted that it does affect him negatively, but it shields away other applicable options he can do. His aerials has got a good cut in landing lag (pretty much at Melee Puff levels), to the point that he can pressure opponents in defense and get great followups from it.(he could already do that in S4, now people just don't shield and beat him) Again, the shield mechanic changes and improved grounded approach (as well as remaining a small character) make it an option you have to respect (although against swordies, it is harder to do). (against anyone that understands that attack beats kirby)
5) Up throw was only slightly nerfed in KO power. It wasn't the most reliable KO throw anyways. (it was very reliable, and a "slight" nerf when it comes to killing is really big, especially if you grabbed under a platform and didn't kill because of the nerf, you're ready for another 30% to deal)
6) I keep hearing that Copy Ability is easier to get knocked out, but I am not really seeing evidence that it is true. From the changelog lists I've seen, when he loses the copy power is unchanged from SSB4. (the changelog isn't reliable, ask litterally any kirby player if the copy is easier to lose)
7) Basing it off of stuff you only found in two weeks and finding better success with other easier characters to play (although the characters you did select are much better characters) is flawed reasoning to say that the character is terrible. You can say that you found better success with Donkey Kong than with Peach because DK is a much easier character to play, but only two weeks have passed and Peach has more depth. (OK but I'd have seen the depth if I played Peach and wouldn't have given up on her if there was hope)

The only reason why he is one of the most underwhelming characters in the game (not arguing that he is bottom 5), is because he still have low reach and his air speed is still relatively small. (it's not relatively small, it's abyssmal. but OK) The fact that swordies that swing their swords like empty water bottles lurk in the upper tiers, does not help. But he is not a bad character, just outclassed by the fact that the entire cast is decent at worst, while still having issues. (if everyone is better you're a terrible character, unless the game is perfectly balanced [it obviously isn't])Mark my words though: when Kirby gets a buff to his moveset's range and his air speed, watch him shoot up the tier list (I don't see it happening, but buffing his air speed would help a lot, and range would be amazing)(if his feet had Brawl range, he lowkey would be at the upper high tier)(no).

 

[Vyrnx]

Samus feels like pretty much the same character with upgraded specials (except up b, which is the same[?]). Her dash attack was great and all relative to other dash attacks in S4, but it was still a dash attack and was easily punished by players experienced in the MU. I know I personally didn't use dash attack much anyway vs decent opponents. As good as her midrange game in S4 was (like very very good), she didn't really have a kill move at that range other than sometimes ftilt, sometimes zair/ftilt tech chases, or some sort of jump back CS--now she has two more (dtilt, dash attack). And she actually has combos out of dthrow now; they were totally fake before. It'll be interesting to see how Samus can deal with OP (but still underused) dash dtilts (Roy, Marth, etc), I thought the character would get destroyed in this engine, but I think she just overall benefits from weaker shields and a movement based game. Also before it was sometimes hard to set up Samus's midrange game; now the dash mechanics might make it more accessible? not sure yet

Charge Shot is ridiculous now which just straight up improves all of her MUs across the board. Against some characters she had to confirm a hit to get room to charge (Sheik, Pika, Fox, list goes on and on), now she can charge in a bunch of situations and the reward for a hit is way higher, reward on shield is way higher. And some characters that lost to CS before (Luigi) will just have it much worse. it was already the best killing projectile in the game so I'm surprised by these buffs.

It's all gonna come down to MUs in the end and I still think it'll be hard for Samus to body any characters with her landing game being how it is. Falling uair on grounded opponents sucks now (actually buffed on aerial opponents though) but her other aerials ofc lost landing lag, bombs got buffed (which may make a really big difference in this department), dair might be situationally semi-useful now on stage (bad move before that never received proper recognition for how bad it was). But she retains her (non-da initiated) combo game, good recovery, midrange game got buffed further, zair still seems pretty ok. I honestly don't even know how Dark Samus is different and haven't used [it?] at all yet.

But yeah Samus feels like S4 Samus with broken charge shot, will remain to be seen how she handles top tier MUs (idk who these will be but rn just seems like FE characters, they're seriously so good) and the game engine.

Ridley also feels pretty ok actually. Multi-jumps are really good for him and his aerials are great.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

has the same neutral problems but is imo being dismissed way too much. Repeating myself here, but the hurtbox priority change means that Bowser Jr. is taking 0.88x damage against tons of things that were doing 1.15x damage before, a massive shift--that by itself is just huge. He also loves that his high-damage-high-knockback jab actually links, and loves having a 3f jumpsquat since he was always an aerial character. I think his core flaws still exist, but these are pretty significant changes that I just don't see much chatter about.

To emphasize this point, going from 1.15x to 0.88x damage taken is effectively a 23.5% reduction.

 

[meleebrawler]

It sounds to me like G&W's bombs are used a lot like Samus's in 4: ledge-trapping to pressure shields or slow down ground approaches a bit while staying mobile, unlike Chef.

 

[ProfessorVincent]

To emphasize this point, going from 1.15x to 0.88x damage taken is effectively a 23.5% reduction.

Also, it turns out it makes a lot of Aerials unsafe on hit at mid-low percents against Bowser Jr. Not a huge deal, but I was totally caught off-guard by it.

 

[TDK]

It's funny got none of the attacks that made it good in competitive pokemon (fake out, flare blitz, knock off).

What is the general consensus of low tiers? are what I've heard but IDK all them. Maybe ?

I haven't seen much footage of, but he doesn't seem to be too bad. The knockback change is huge, and probably just makes the character better overall. However, opponents being able to shield the mechakoopa and then pick it up seems like a big deal, as he can't shield pressure with the mechakoopa anymore because of it. I can't help but feel like he's possibly more of a case of someone having to be low tier.

is someone I've made a post of, and I stand by that. PK Freeze is Din's Fire on steroids to the point of being a legitimately threatening move, but it doesn't save the character.

go read Thinkaman's posts on him. Same goes for Myollinir's post on

is, in my opinion, basically unplayable right now, and that's almost entirely due to one change: Jab not moving Luma forwards. This doesn't seem like much, but it was the number one thing that actually let her compete, since she could microspace from a distance nobody else could reach. It also made her one of the best ledgetrappers in the game, and generally opened up a lot of options for her. Luma Shot does exactly none of that. While it going less distance is appreciated, it's slow, doesn't combo into anything, does eh damage, and Luma takes forever to actually come back. Even factoring in this and Luma's 1.5x damage modifier when sent out by Luma Shot (which is required, since Luma got a global damage nerf) doesn't do enough to fix it. That nerf alone made her unviable, with every other nerf she got (bad new nair, LL bair not going as low, Up Air and Dair are both noticeably laggier) just being icing on the cake. I still think she's better than, say, Mac and Kirby, but it's close.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Just curious, but what does everyone think of Captain Falcon at the moment?

 

[Ffamran]

So, this section: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...f1GGIteH35UX3IM7-mnbdG6eE/edit#gid=1016493459, has gravity and traction values where I believe "地上抵抗" means traction and "重力" means gravity. The only thing I have to go off of traction is that Wolf's traction was reported to be 0.11 on the Wolf boards and Wolf's value for "地上抵抗" is indeed 0.11. Also, if you're wondering why Charizard, Ivysaur, Squirtle, and the Mii Fighters are using different icons, well, it's because they don't have their Ultimate stock icons yet. And yes, "Pac-n-Flower" is Piranha Plant. Piranha Plant's Japanese name is apparently "Packun Flower"? "Pac-n-Flower" is the result of Google Translate.

Note: Forgot to put this in, but since there's so many characters, I might have entered in the wrong value. Hopefully, that didn't happen.

Spoiler: Giant Table

Character|Traction|Gravity
|0.102|0.087
|0.123|0.085
|0.113|0.096
|0.082|0.075
|0.082|0.075
|0.095|0.08
|0.116|0.064
|0.115|0.23
|0.132|0.095
|0.096|0.083
|0.131|0.077
|0.105|0.12
|0.087|0.053
|0.111|0.07
|0.111|0.07
|0.104|0.125
(Popo)|0.077|0.082
(Nana)|0.0847|0.082
|0.106|0.15
|0.116|0.071
|0.106|0.087
|0.11|0.14
|0.127|0.13
|0.114|0.075
|0.114|0.075
|0.105|0.096
|0.125|0.108
|0.116|0.082
|0.107|0.114
|0.107|0.114
|0.131|0.08
|0.097|0.11
|0.135|0.081
|0.135|0.081
|0.116|0.12
|0.106|0.107
|0.116|0.08
|0.112|0.092
|0.088|0.128
|0.121|0.082
|0.11|0.11
|0.093|0.125
|0.116|0.09
|0.138|0.09
|0.085|0.097
|0.093|0.068
|0.116|0.084
|0.105|0.09
|0.086|0.081
|0.11|0.13
|0.131|0.078
|0.094|0.107
|0.128|0.09
|0.099|0.062
|0.116|0.09
|0.087|0.18
|0.12|0.169
|0.11|0.106
|0.076|0.098
|0.106|0.12
|0.116|0.072
|0.105|0.089
|0.094|0.098
|0.085|0.092
|0.09|0.076
|0.11|0.12
|0.11|0.12
|0.106|0.098
|0.129|0.092
|0.11|0.12
|0.102|0.087
|0.08|0.09
|0.085|0.085
|0.085|0.085
|0.105|0.015
|0.131|0.07
|0.114|0.126
"Pac-n-Flower"|0.088|0.085

Regarding traction, Sonic has the highest traction in the game at 0.138 while Mii Gunner has the lowest this time and not Luigi. Luigi's traction value is 0.096 which is higher than several other characters, so around average I guess while Mii Gunner's traction is 0.076. Nana's traction and other values are different from Popo since she needs to keep up with him and in the spreadsheet, she's the character after Piranha Plant. For this table, however, I had her follow Popo instead of listing her last. Traction values are much higher in Ultimate than in previous games. Anyway, the lowest traction of 0.076 is higher than the highest traction in Smash 4, Lucario's 0.0736. Traction in Ultimate is around the highs of Melee where you had characters like Link, Peach, Pichu, and Zelda with traction values of 0.1 where all four in Ultimate have higher traction than in Melee.

Gravity on the other hand I'm not sure if it changed all that much except for Fox who has his Melee gravity again. I think this makes it even easier to kill him off the top now with his lower weight because starting in Brawl, gravity affects vertical knockback.

The Belmonts, Charizard, and King K. Rool are currently the only characters to have the same value for traction and gravity.

Edit: Forgot that Mii Gunner existed.

 

[Rizen]

Just curious, but what does everyone think of Captain Falcon at the moment?

Dair to knee (or whatever) is looking scary. CF has a lot going for him and is kind of in the same position as last game; good but overshadowed by better characters due to a relatively simple game plan and exploitable disadvantage. Although he does seem more rounded this iteration.

 

[Ajani]

So, this section: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...f1GGIteH35UX3IM7-mnbdG6eE/edit#gid=1016493459, has gravity and traction values where I believe "地上抵抗" means traction and "重力" means gravity. The only thing I have to go off of traction is that Wolf's traction was reported to be 0.11 on the Wolf boards and Wolf's value for "地上抵抗" is indeed 0.11. Also, if you're wondering why Charizard, Ivysaur, Squirtle, and the Mii Fighters are using different icons, well, it's because they don't have their Ultimate stock icons yet. And yes, "Pac-n-Flower" is Piranha Plant. Piranha Plant's Japanese name is apparently "Packun Flower"? "Pac-n-Flower" is the result of Google Translate.

Note: Forgot to put this in, but since there's so many characters, I might have entered in the wrong value. Hopefully, that didn't happen.

Spoiler: Giant Table

Character|Traction|Gravity
|0.102|0.087
|0.123|0.085
|0.113|0.096
|0.082|0.075
|0.082|0.075
|0.095|0.08
|0.116|0.064
|0.115|0.23
|0.132|0.095
|0.096|0.083
|0.131|0.077
|0.105|0.12
|0.087|0.053
|0.111|0.07
|0.111|0.07
|0.104|0.125
(Popo)|0.077|0.082
(Nana)|0.0847|0.082
|0.106|0.15
|0.116|0.071
|0.106|0.087
|0.11|0.14
|0.127|0.13
|0.114|0.075
|0.114|0.075
|0.105|0.096
|0.125|0.108
|0.116|0.082
|0.107|0.114
|0.107|0.114
|0.131|0.08
|0.097|0.11
|0.135|0.081
|0.135|0.081
|0.116|0.12
|0.106|0.107
|0.116|0.08
|0.112|0.092
|0.088|0.128
|0.121|0.082
|0.11|0.11
|0.093|0.125
|0.116|0.09
|0.138|0.09
|0.085|0.097
|0.093|0.068
|0.116|0.084
|0.105|0.09
|0.086|0.081
|0.11|0.13
|0.131|0.078
|0.094|0.107
|0.128|0.09
|0.099|0.062
|0.116|0.09
|0.087|0.18
|0.12|0.169
|0.11|0.106
|0.076|0.098
|0.106|0.12
|0.116|0.072
|0.105|0.089
|0.094|0.098
|0.085|0.092
|0.09|0.076
|0.11|0.12
|0.11|0.12
|0.106|0.098
|0.129|0.092
|0.11|0.12
|0.102|0.087
|0.08|0.09
|0.085|0.085
|0.085|0.085
|0.105|0.015
|0.131|0.07
|0.114|0.126
"Pac-n-Flower"|0.088|0.085

Regarding traction, Sonic has the highest traction in the game at 0.138 while Popo has the lowest this time and not Luigi. Luigi's traction value is 0.096 which is higher than several other characters, so around average I guess while Popo's traction is 0.077. Nana's traction and other values are different from Popo since she needs to keep up with him and in the spreadsheet, she's the character after Piranha Plant. For this table, however, I had her follow Popo instead of listing her last. Traction values are much higher in Ultimate than in previous games. The lowest traction of 0.077 is higher than the highest traction in Smash 4, Lucario's 0.0736. Traction in Ultimate is around the highs of Melee where you had characters like Link, Peach, Pichu, and Zelda with traction values of 0.1 where all four in Ultimate have higher traction than in Melee.

Gravity on the other hand I'm not sure if it changed all that much except for Fox who has his Melee gravity again. I think this makes it even easier to kill him off the top now with his lower weight because starting in Brawl, gravity affects vertical knockback.

The Belmonts, Charizard, and King K. Rool are currently the only characters to have the same value for traction and gravity.

Thank you. This is in Ascending order:

0.076
(Popo)0.077
0.08
0.082
0.082
(Nana)0.0847
0.085
0.085
0.085
0.085
0.086
0.087
0.087
0.088
ac-n-Flower:0.088
0.09
0.093
0.093
0.094
0.094
0.095
0.096
0.097
0.099
0.102
0.102
0.104
0.105
0.105
0.105
0.105
0.105
0.106
0.106
0.106
0.106
0.106
0.107
0.107
0.11
0.11
0.11
0.11
0.11
0.11
0.11
0.111
0.111
0.112
0.113
0.114
0.114
0.114
0.115
0.116
0.116
0.116
0.116
0.116
0.116
0.116
0.116
0.116
0.12
0.121
0.123
0.125
0.127
0.128
0.129
0.131
0.131
0.131
0.131
0.132
0.135
0.135
0.138

 

[verbatim]

's standing is all about shields. This is the character who hated shields more than anyone else in Smash 4, full stop. And now shielding is less good. Even before we take into account the big grab buff and havign more safety on shield, this is a very big shift for Pac. While he HATES people being faster (like all Zoners), the shift away from shields takes priority.

This doesn't address the significant/bayo-level nerfs he got, which I'll probably cover in a later post, but it does a really good job of articulating why he might end up seeing better results in Ultimate.

tl;dr most of his advance tech got patched out, but he also got significantly easier to play. He feels closer to a traditional smash character (not that he ever will be) than an endless bag of tricks now.


It should also probably be worth noting that he keeps his S tier disadvantage state going into Ultimate, where getting out of disadvantage is going to be harder for practically everyone else.

 

[Thinkaman]

Like Thinkaman said, Fair loses to everything. If you have a hitbox on your Up-B, it'll beat G&W fair. If you throw out a non-grab hitbox while approaching, it'll beat G&W fair. If you press just about any fast button after G&W hits you with the first hit of fair, you'll beat G&W fair. Hell, you can literally jump through the bomb and it won't hit you unless it hits the ground or times out first. It doesn't work for edgeguarding or zoning because it doesn't ****ing work.

This.

I was so excited for it as an edgeguard tool, and rationalized that as long as bair was good the old fair was an acceptable loss. But, it only works against an opponent who stays in a particular location 60 frames in the future without making any sort of hitbox at any point in the bomb's path. Out of the entire cast, as an ledgeguard that might hit... Falcon? Maybe ICSs or Ganon? A drunk ROB? If the stars align you might catch Inkling, but good luck.

Imagine if Samus bombs didn't explode on contact and you could just slide past them, or if Snake grenades were deleted on hit and had no defensive value. This is G&W fair.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

And we are back on schedule, evening guys and gals.

 

[Rocketjay8]

Dair to knee (or whatever) is looking scary. CF has a lot going for him and is kind of in the same position as last game; good but overshadowed by better characters due to a relatively simple game plan and exploitable disadvantage.

This is Captain Falcon were talking about. There will be a ton of people who will main him simply because he's Captain Mother****ing Falcon.

 

[Kellojolly]

To those that have extensively tested Cloud out and have been watching some high-level gameplays, what are your thoughts on SSBU Cloud? I have been seeing most people claiming he was severely nerfed from SSB4 and is a mid-tier-type character. However, I've also seen people swearing by Cloud and that he's still top to high tier.

 

[The_Bookworm]

To those that have extensively tested Cloud out and have been watching some high-level gameplays, what are your thoughts on SSBU Cloud? I have been seeing most people claiming he was severely nerfed from SSB4 and is a mid-tier-type character. However, I've also seen people swearing by Cloud and that he's still top to high tier.

I personally think he is still top tier. He wasn't as nerfed as hard as other top tiered characters in SSB4 (like Rosa, Bayo, and Sheik). Despite the range nerfs, his attacks still have decent range. This is coupled by retaining his potent juggling game and great mobility. The fact that his already fast aerials got landing lag buffs across the board also helps.

Limit is still a good mechanic, although not as ridiculous as in SSB4. It still gives you the stat buffs. It still gives you fast and strong limit attacks (though Limit Cross Slash is noticeably weaker than before). You can still go back and charge limit (except against Fox and his lasers lol) and force approaches, although not to the same potency as in SSB4.

Overall, still really good imo, but not "candidate-for-best-character" material.

 

[meleebrawler]

This.

I was so excited for it as an edgeguard tool, and rationalized that as long as bair was good the old fair was an acceptable loss. But, it only works against an opponent who stays in a particular location 60 frames in the future without making any sort of hitbox at any point in the bomb's path. Out of the entire cast, as an ledgeguard that might hit... Falcon? Maybe ICSs or Ganon? A drunk ROB? If the stars align you might catch Inkling, but good luck.

Imagine if Samus bombs didn't explode on contact and you could just slide past them, or if Snake grenades were deleted on hit and had no defensive value. This is G&W fair.

Dropping it close to the ground makes it explode faster, so maybe stop trying to use it as an air-to-air? Why does G&W even need to 2-frame with this when run-off bair and dair are much more reliable edgeguards anyway?

We don't need to imagine Samus's bombs not exploding on contact: already know what it's like. I can't speak for Brawl bombs, but I do know even Smash 4 bombs had good uses, even if they're not as good as what we have now. They could provide good shield pressure in the right situations (namely punishing ledge getups) and slow down ground approaches when used intelligently. And they're much less of a commitment to use than they ever were for Samus.

 

[Phosphophyllite]

It's funny got none of the attacks that made it good in competitive pokemon (fake out, flare blitz, knock off).

What is the general consensus of low tiers? are what I've heard but IDK all them. Maybe ?

is too early to tell on how much better he is, but he's absolutely much better than he was in Smash 4. He's gotten nothing but buffs and there's a lot of significant ones. The speed increase and the new inhale mechanics make Dedede much better at dealing with camping than he was in Smash 4, a lot of his weird hitboxes and sourspots have been sorted out, Gordos consistently sticking into walls makes Dedede's already good edgegaurding game even better, he's just better in every way. Of course, regardless of all this, Gordos are still tricky to use effectively and can't be used stupidly, he's still one of the slower characters in both movement and move set, and he's still gonna get combo'd for days due to his size and weight. It's all going to come down to whether or not Dedede's natural flaws are going to be as much of a problem as they were in Smash 4, but hopefully this should be better already since many of his worst match ups, like have all been nerfed significantly.

isn't looking too promising for me personally, so far I haven't been able to utilise his new Fair as much as I would like to, and many of the animation changes to his moves have been pretty detrimental, especially for Utilt, Dtilt and Fsmash. Just like Dedede too, G&W's biggest flaws are still there. Granted, hopefully he won't be getting KO'd as easy with the rage nerfs but the big issue for me is just how much he struggles to approach. If you go up against a character with good long range normals like or then you're in for a really bad match up, especially if like them, you can KO G&W super early. I'm sure there'll be advancements from much better G&W players, finding the optimal use for Fair as well as putting stuff like Uair to good use too, as well as finding the best combos for him and his grabs, but for me personally I'm overall not happy with how G&W has been changed in Ultimate and I hope this isn't a sign of how things will go for him in the long run.

 

[Guido65]

is not to be underestimated. He has the range and speed to go up against other swordies, and has some good kill setups and edge guarding tools. He also has at least one tournament win.

In terms of movement speed he's about the same as smash 4 Mario but he has a lot of other traits that really help him out vs other swordfighters namely his edgeguarding, projectiles, and juggling to capitalize on their bad disadvantage states. He also has stuff like gale strike confirms and shuriken of light is a good projectile for zoning now that it's much less laggy than s4. He has a lot going for him this time around retaining many of his strengths in smash 4 and losing nearly all of his flaws. I'm surprised he's not used more due to being very easy to use and having a very well rounded kit.

 

[Trifroze]

Re: Falcon

His neutral feels strange, playing out very differently compared to Smash 4. Dash grab reward isn't as good anymore because the slide is gone and uair was nerfed, but on the other hand ftilt is now an amazing poke, especially out of dash (sets for tech chase), raptor boost is actually safe on shield against almost everyone and sets up for an uair, and dair is a viable combo starter if spaced well or as a cross up.

First hit of neutral air also sets up for literally everything and is only -6 on shield, so it's similar to his old uair; probably a very conscious change so that his juggles are worse while still retaining a reliable combo starter, and his jab will come out in time to break any attempted shieldgrab because of the change in shieldgrab mechanics (extra 4 frames out of shieldstun if I'm correct).

The uair nerf, as well as the damage/knockback modifier to SH aerials is a big deal for Falcon though in a negative way. Uair doesn't kill until around 170-180% or so, and shorthop bair won't kill until ~140%. That rough range is also where his throws and dash attack will start killing. If you don't get an edgeguard or a knee setup, Falcon is going to struggle to end the stock before 150+%, unlike before where bair or uair would finish the job considerably earlier than that.

He's a more interesting character now, but it remains to be seen whether his neutral feels weird just because he plays so differently, or because it simply isn't that good without the dashgrab cheese. Both seem equally likely to me; he might become really amazing in time once people figure out his new options and spacing a bit better, and optimize his advantage around the new mechanics - or it might turn out that making him a more complete and balanced character actually removed his most relevant strengths, and he'll struggle.

 

[Thinkaman]

Falcon seems to be enjoying good news, but I'm a little sad that Raptor Boost is never how I'd like...

 

[Funtroon]

I've mained Puff (and only Puff) during the duration of Smash 4's history. In that game, she felt very stiff and her kit failed to be coherent. In Ultimate, however, I feel like she's been improved. Her edgeguarding in this game is insane, thanks very much to the new air-dodge mechanic. Her aerials obviously have reduced landing lag and have more power to them (see fair), jab 2 is now a good get-away-from-me option to and jab 1 now jab locks like it's supposed to do. However, I still feel like she won't be solo-viable in Ultimate. She'll get out ranged by a most of the swordies and it will be hard for her to get in on zoners such as Snake, the Links and the Belmonts. Her limited combo game is still present, and rest set-ups aren't common (not yet). Finally, rest's kill power has been nerfed slightly compared to Smash 4, which is unfortunate.

All in all, things are looking great for Jigglypuff in Ultimate! Her viability is still questionable imo, but it's a great improvement from her Smash 4 counterpart who was utterly underwhelming.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Falcon seems to be enjoying good news, but I'm a little sad that Raptor Boost is never how I'd like...

Raptor Boost got insane buffs in this game. It has once again (similarly to Melee) turned from a kill move to a combo move. However, the applications in neutral is actually insane. It does insane pressure on the opponents, as it does good shield damage on the opponents and is very hard to punish on shield. Fatality has shown that aerial Raptor Boost apparently has good applications in neutral now, and even has combo ability.

 

[VodkaHaze]

isn't looking too promising for me personally, so far I haven't been able to utilise his new Fair as much as I would like to, and many of the animation changes to his moves have been pretty detrimental, especially for Utilt, Dtilt and Fsmash. Just like Dedede too, G&W's biggest flaws are still there. Granted, hopefully he won't be getting KO'd as easy with the rage nerfs but the big issue for me is just how much he struggles to approach. If you go up against a character with good long range normals like or then you're in for a really bad match up, especially if like them, you can KO G&W super early. I'm sure there'll be advancements from much better G&W players, finding the optimal use for Fair as well as putting stuff like Uair to good use too, as well as finding the best combos for him and his grabs, but for me personally I'm overall not happy with how G&W has been changed in Ultimate and I hope this isn't a sign of how things will go for him in the long run.

Couldn't agree more. One of the biggest issues I had as a G&W main in Smash 4 was the lack of kill options. Sure, Uair was a kill option, but setting up into Uair was hard because of the windbox. Now that Uair feels more like Megaman's, it seems like it's to be used for juggling not killing. Fair could be a good kill option, but it loses to everything. Not to mention many of his moves have had a decrease in range, making it harder to approach as well as many setups like Dthrow into Utilt and Dtilt out-of-shield no longer work.

On an unrelated note, what are your early thoughts on Incineroar?

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

People should stop naming unplayable to things that are averange or underwhelming at worst, if you want something unplayable go pick melee mewtwo and try to use side b or pick DK and try to use dash attack or pick Kirby and try to use any throw, using hyperbole is bad especially in this community that overreacts to almost anything.

 

[The_Bookworm]

People should stop naming unplayable to things that are averange or underwhelming at worst, if you want something unplayable go pick melee mewtwo and try to use side b or pick DK and try to use dash attack or pick Kirby and try to use any throw, using hyperbole is bad especially in this community that overreacts to almost anything.

I couldn't agree more, especially since the fact that the game is only about 2 weeks out.

 

[Gh00l]

Sheik is weird. My friend,who was a Sheik man and has taken games of many PGR BC players as Sheik says that she "doesn't click' in this game and switched to Pit (an underrated as hell character atm...) Sheik isn't nearly as scary to fight anymore, whereas I hated fighting her the absolute most in 4 alongside Bayo and Rosa.

Dunno how much that statement is worth except that people shouldnt shove her in top tier right away just because she is Sheik.

I mean, Void dropped her for pichu, whp is imo, a better character with wicked frame data and serious kill power to boot (but imo can't be top due to weight/range... Pikachu sure will be though)

Edit: Just saw this compilation of results for tournaments this far and this is VERY interesting:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1x8GtQbT_5XkwzpKfGPfTcRNB5LV5vpI_BY2aDoJpopc/edit#gid=0

The character in first for overall results right now...is

Am i missing something? No one talks about this guy, all i know is that his d throw is amazing cause it's a bury that sets up for damage and kills like k rool's...other than that, seems like same old Rob. Someone enlighten me/thoughts on ROB's #1 results?

Im sure it'll change once we get a major, though.

To go further on your subject matter; the Shiek difference anyway, she’s not the only one, is super weird. They still have that f smash and aerials, but their specials and combos in this game are a lot harder to hit now than ever, Side B being the worst of it. Not only that, Corrin’s neutral b stun is harder to capitalize on and their counter, as you guys might’ve seen already, is now pitiful. Breaks my heart I have to drop them but someone enlighten me otherwise if their still good or not.

 

[Yikarur]

I missed those kinds of threads.

Bowser Jr. for worst character!

 

[Rocketjay8]

I've mained Puff (and only Puff) during the duration of Smash 4's history. In that game, she felt very stiff and her kit failed to be coherent. In Ultimate, however, I feel like she's been improved. Her edgeguarding in this game is insane, thanks very much to the new air-dodge mechanic. Her aerials obviously have reduced landing lag and have more power to them (see fair), jab 2 is now a good get-away-from-me option to and jab 1 now jab locks like it's supposed to do. However, I still feel like she won't be solo-viable in Ultimate. She'll get out ranged by a most of the swordies and it will be hard for her to get in on zoners such as Snake, the Links and the Belmonts. Her limited combo game is still present, and rest set-ups aren't common (not yet). Finally, rest's kill power has been nerfed slightly compared to Smash 4, which is unfortunate.

All in all, things are looking great for Jigglypuff in Ultimate! Her viability is still questionable imo, but it's a great improvement from her Smash 4 counterpart who was utterly underwhelming.

The main reason why they nerfed rest is because you can cancel the sleep animation. It makes rest even more reliable as a kill option.

Raptor Boost got insane buffs in this game. It has once again (similarly to Melee) turned from a kill move to a combo move. However, the applications in neutral is actually insane. It does insane pressure on the opponents, as it does good shield damage on the opponents and is very hard to punish on shield. Fatality has shown that aerial Raptor Boost apparently has good applications in neutral now, and even has combo ability.

On top of all of that, it has Super Armor.

 

[Aaron1997]

This might save Rosalina

 

[Rizen]

The main reason why they nerfed rest is because you can cancel the sleep animation.

You mean besides grabbing the ledge?

 

[Rocketjay8]

You mean besides grabbing the ledge?

Yes. It doesn't cancel it immediately, but it does around the middle of it.

 

[The_Bookworm]

This might save Rosalina

This tech is actually huge for Rosalina. This allows Rosalina to control space almost no other character has access to. This is like Rosa's jab in SSB4, but it is applied to almost all of her attacks.

The tech related to it seems to be some nice advanced tech that will be helpful for any player. It isn't really super meta defining for a specific character (except Rosalina), but it is nice.

 

[Rizen]

Yes. It doesn't cancel it immediately, but it does around the middle of it.

How's that work?

 

[The_Bookworm]

How's that work?

There are two parts of the Rest's endlag: the part where Puff stays asleep and the part where Puff begins to wake up. In Ultimate, you can cancel the waking up part of the move by, pretty much anything.

 

[J0eyboi]

How's that work?

It has 30f less endlag on hit

 

[trickroom]

So, uh, what's the deal with Falco? On paper this character is still trash, but when playing him he feels a lot better. Of course he got small hitbox/QoL buffs to a lot of his stuff but again he still "shouldn't" be good -- that being said, he 'clicks' in a way that tells me the buffs are more beneficial beneath the surface. His edgeguards are strong, his improved hitboxes on nair and bair pay dividends, and he has a higher run speed, right? His combo game is mostly the same, but it's easier now to get it started and keep it alive. I wonder if these will translate to high-level, but seeing Larry's Falco get kicked in the face at Sky's invitational leaves me a little pessimistic. I want to hear from people who've thought about and played with the character more.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

This might save Rosalina

So, uh...wow, that's a thing now I guess. The dash attack cancel into grab was already a thing in 4 that Rosalina could get a lot of mileage from for the exact reasons he mentions, but the jump cancels are definitely new and I'm officially intrigued.

(Also I showed that video to my friend and his reaction, verbatim, was "I'm so ****ed.")

 

[Game7a1]

Finally, rest's kill power has been nerfed slightly compared to Smash 4, which is unfortunate.

Are you certain Rest has been nerfed knockback wise? I got the impression since most upper blastzones moved up, Rest KO's later (as would other moves dealing vertical knockback).

How's that work?

As Joeyboi said, if you hit something (character, shield, item) with Rest, the FAF/endlag is faster than not connecting it.

 

[Planty]

Rosalina's jump cancels have been known for a while and are being called Lunar Jumps by Rosalina mains. Right now, Rosa mains are still practicing being able to do the tech consistently, because the timing is really tight and there's so many variations you can do, so it remains to be seen how lunar jumps will impact her neutral and combo game. However, some players have already started incorporating lunar jumps into their neutral game and they're saying it's a very strong option. Whether that's do to the opponent's unfamiliarity or it actually being a good option remain to be seen.

That ties into the general trend with Rosalina's viability in Ultimate: nobody really knows if she's good or not, like a big question mark. A lot of top players like Dabuz have dropped her already, which doesn't look good, but that's probably because Rosalina is very different in this game and is looking to be a very technical character is well. It's not worth investing a lot of time in this character when you aren't even sure if she's going to be good.