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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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  • Total voters
    563

SKX31

Smash Champion
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I had a stray thought about Foresight - and that's how it interacts with ARMS attacks. Tested it out in training - and it triggered on the dragon laser at max range. The slow down was enough for Mythra to close in with a dash attack or d tilt before the dragon ARM could return. It also triggered on Ramram's boomerang - the spot dodge allowed Mythra to dash attack Min Min - if it's done frame perfectly that dash attack can hit Min Min be well before the RamRam returns.

While Min Min isn't entirely defenseless I'd imagine, I still feel bad for Min Min vs. Mythra because Foresight can apparently screw with the ARMS attacks something fierce. Mythra can also contest Min Min's frame data natively, The matchup doesn't look hopeless for Min Min since she can presumably use the kicks out of shield, but it sounds rough when ones' main gameplan is potentially counteracted.

Of course, I'm ready to throw the above paragraph out of the window if it actually turns out Min Min does well in this MU. But still, Foresight is going to be a major wrinkle for Min Mins to consider in this particular one.
 
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Minix0

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What do you guys think about Sephi vs the girls?

I've already said it but I don't Ridley will end up doing that bad against them since edgeguarding is basically his forte. Neutral B will go right through Mythra's side B too. Mythra seems like a problem somewhat but I doubt it'll matter if she can't kill. Ridley vs Mythra is likely even, though I wouldn't be surprised if Ridley was +1 vs Pyra.
 

Lancerech

Smash Rookie
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Apr 17, 2014
Messages
13
The thing about Pyra is when you realize she has Gannon level kill power, her frame data does not exactly terrible in comparison. Yes she has lots of stuff that is very punishable. But many of her airiels can be relatively safe with landing canceling. I mean her f-smash alone is considerably faster than Gannons despite being around just as strong, and big..
I feel like people are overstating her kill power. Maybe I'm playing her wrong, but I have a lot of instances where I can't get the kill with Pyra at 140-160%. Her ledgetrapping is good, but she absolutely needs to be on point with it, and even then some of her safer coverage options like Ftilt or Side B won't kill around 110% or later. I would say her kill power is more comparable to Chrom, where she trades speed and kill confirm ability for greater range.
 

StoicPhantom

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
553
I feel like people are overstating her kill power. Maybe I'm playing her wrong, but I have a lot of instances where I can't get the kill with Pyra at 140-160%. Her ledgetrapping is good, but she absolutely needs to be on point with it, and even then some of her safer coverage options like Ftilt or Side B won't kill around 110% or later. I would say her kill power is more comparable to Chrom, where she trades speed and kill confirm ability for greater range.
I think it's because her aerials seem to launch them towards the corner where players with good DI can live a long time.

And Pyra has pretty good kill moves that can cover a multitude of situations. They just aren't easy button kills because why would we give such a character those? I think the main point is that Pyra has more options than Mythra and has more room to survive on whiff.
 
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meleebrawler

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Random thoughts:

I think in my 100+ games today, I had one win screen as Mythra.

I love Mythra jab and neutral-b, got so much mileage out of both of them.

I had way more luck getting kills by switching back and forth between the two than just policy-switching to Pyra at 115% or so. The conditioning is real.

I play Pyra better when I play her like a holistic character and imagine I'm playing Ganondorf or Ike, than if I think of her as a killbot for Mythra. When I do that, I end up tunnel-visioning really hard on specific kill moves like up-b.
Funny you feel like Ganondorf or Ike with Pyra. It's understandable, but neither of them have a practically unstoppable (it's like Crownerang in that cancelling out the travel hitboxes does not stop the sword from moving forward) projectile that denies, or punishes people for picking a fortified position to camp in. If they don't have a reflector, Pyra is paradoxically the best choice to bring out against those refusing to approach, something these slow powerhouses usually hate.

Not only can Mythra capitalize on the high knockback of Pyra's moves, the latter also benefits from the former being able to bring her to positions that elevate the KO potential of her more standard moves to their true potential.
This is what the hitbox data looks like for the spike portion of the move (w/ interpolation included); the spike portion lasts for two frames, half the duration of the move itself:

View attachment 306271
View attachment 306272

Uniquely enough, Pyra's spike starts as soon as the first hitbox comes out, which ends up giving the spike some ridiculously generous horizontal range, especially compared to other "arched" DAir spikes like Arsene Joker's or Marthcina's where the spike only begins directly below them.

I would imagine its not even that hard to land considering that Pyra's air movement is nowhere close to being bad.
On the other hand, this meteor is actually not that strong, so unless the opponent's vertical recovery is that bad, doing this near the edge probably won't kill them until they pass 50% or so.

The lower power does make it's combo applications greater, though. You can actually lock people prone on the ground with down air at very low percents, though I don't know if Pyra would be able to capitalize with a true combo.
 

Frihetsanka

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Ridley vs Mythra is likely even, though I wouldn't be surprised if Ridley was +1 vs Pyra.
This is not how matchups are going to work, a good player will likely swap between them quite often. I've heard people say she's really good vs superheavies and Ridley has the body of a superheavy, I haven't played the MU myself though. I highly doubt he wins, it is Ridley we're talking about after all. Perhaps he just slightly loses? Perhaps it's Even? Initial impression from Ridley Discord seems to be that they lose vs Pyra/Mythra.
 

Minix0

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This is not how matchups are going to work, a good player will likely swap between them quite often. I've heard people say she's really good vs superheavies and Ridley has the body of a superheavy, I haven't played the MU myself though. I highly doubt he wins, it is Ridley we're talking about after all. Perhaps he just slightly loses? Perhaps it's Even? Initial impression from Ridley Discord seems to be that they lose vs Pyra/Mythra.
Honestly the Ridley discord probably says that about most mu's lol. I don't have a ton of experience in the mu myself but on paper other than Mythra's combo game I can't imagine too much of a struggle.

And yeah, a good player will swap between them I only brought it up to demonstrate that I feel like the Pyra mu is easier. Perhaps I worded it poorly idk.
 

NairWizard

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Alright, here's the SolidSense take on Mythra and Pyra (with some chip from Shaya, who no longer visits smashboards), after some actual experimenting against decent players. Sadly, all this experimentation is online, because of the pandemic, so take this with a grain or pitcher of salt.

The single biggest thing about the duo is Mythra's hitboxes and hurtbox compression. Mythra's animations are hilariously overtuned. You don't believe me? Take a look at this. Here's the first frame of Mythra's b-air.

1615165787846.png



She's tiny. For comparison, here's another character who often compresses hitboxes, ZSS, and frame 1 of her b-air.

1615165833280.png


Mythra compresses immediately; ZSS compresses when the move actually starts.

To add insult to injury, Mythra's disjoint is actually larger than her body during her animations, something that we don't see castwide across swordsmen (dangling limbs on half the moveset of the likes of Lucina/Marth comes to mind).

1615165891376.png


This is hilarious, and very consistent across her moves. When you can cover your whole tiny body with disjoints, then you know you're a good character, regardless of whatever else, but the "whatever else" in this case is also pretty strong. Foresight alone has almost endless applications to different game states and makes it scary to chase after Mythra once you get a hit, meaning that in practice you're often not extending far enough to make up the percent difference after she's gotten a few strings on you.

As the Mythra player, you don't really need Pyra to be your killbot for you. Mythra kills just fine, just like Sheik can also kill just fine with her setups. Mythra's trap game is almost unparalleled across the cast (I mean, Pacman-bell level scary, but far easier to execute), between d-tilt 2-frames, landing traps with side-b and platform traps with neutral-b. Many of these situations will lead to kills.

Pyra exists and will be used--I mean, it would be like if Sheik had a Ganondorf transformation on demand, there'd be no reason not to use that transformation sometimes. But I firmly believe that Mythra would be top 10 without the Pyra transformation at all, assuming she had a relevant down-b in its place (like Flame Nova). Mythra is just that good.

As for Pyra, I think she's both under- and overrated. Underrated, in the sense that she's better in neutral than people think: safe disjointed aerials and huge range never go out of style, and side-b is great in some matchups. Overrated, in the sense that I think she's completely unnecessary for killing, and also Flame Nova isn't as broken as it seems, despite being a good situational mixup while landing/on shield, because there's ample counterplay (jump over, roll away, don't try to punish for no reason) in different situations.

Together, my guess is top 3 if Tweek or MKLeo or similar top reactionary player were to play offline. Otherwise, will find themselves somewhere in top 15, having frequent losses to good chars like Game and Watch and ROB and Joker.
 
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Kokiden

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I still don't know what "matched the vulnerability with other fighters when falling in place" means lol.
 

meleebrawler

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Alright, here's the SolidSense take on Mythra and Pyra (with some chip from Shaya, who no longer visits smashboards), after some actual experimenting against decent players. Sadly, all this experimentation is online, because of the pandemic, so take this with a grain or pitcher of salt.

The single biggest thing about the duo is Mythra's hitboxes and hurtbox compression. Mythra's animations are hilariously overtuned. You don't believe me? Take a look at this. Here's the first frame of Mythra's b-air.

View attachment 306354


She's tiny. For comparison, here's another character who often compresses hitboxes, ZSS, and frame 1 of her b-air.

View attachment 306355

Mythra compresses immediately; ZSS compresses when the move actually starts.

To add insult to injury, Mythra's disjoint is actually larger than her body during her animations, something that we don't see castwide across swordsmen (dangling limbs on half the moveset of the likes of Lucina/Marth comes to mind).

View attachment 306356

This is hilarious, and very consistent across her moves. When you can cover your whole tiny body with disjoints, then you know you're a good character, regardless of whatever else, but the "whatever else" in this case is also pretty strong. Foresight alone has almost endless applications to different game states and makes it scary to chase after Mythra once you get a hit, meaning that in practice you're often not extending far enough to make up the percent difference after she's gotten a few strings on you.

As the Mythra player, you don't really need Pyra to be your killbot for you. Mythra kills just fine, just like Sheik can also kill just fine with her setups. Mythra's trap game is almost unparalleled across the cast (I mean, Pacman-bell level scary, but far easier to execute), between d-tilt 2-frames, landing traps with side-b and platform traps with neutral-b. Many of these situations will lead to kills.

Pyra exists and will be used--I mean, it would be like if Sheik had a Ganondorf transformation on demand, there'd be no reason not to use that transformation sometimes. But I firmly believe that Mythra would be top 10 without the Pyra transformation at all, assuming she had a relevant down-b in its place (like Flame Nova). Mythra is just that good.

As for Pyra, I think she's both under- and overrated. Underrated, in the sense that she's better in neutral than people think: safe disjointed aerials and huge range never go out of style, and side-b is great in some matchups. Overrated, in the sense that I think she's completely unnecessary for killing, and also Flame Nova isn't as broken as it seems, despite being a good situational mixup while landing/on shield, because there's ample counterplay (jump over, roll away, don't try to punish for no reason) in different situations.

Together, my guess is top 3 if Tweek or MKLeo or similar top reactionary player were to play offline. Otherwise, will find themselves somewhere in top 15, having frequent losses to good chars like Game and Watch and ROB and Joker.
Yeah, but Sheik has most of Mythra's good traits and an actually useful projectile plus a great recovery, but is she frequently in the top 10 talks for Ultimate?
 
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Ziodyne 21

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Yeah, but Sheik has most of Mythra's good traits and an actually useful projectile plus a great recovery, but is she frequently in the top 10 talks for Ultimate?
There is also the fact that Sheiks Projectile and Bouncing Fish options are basically unpunishable and she can go deep offstage. Mythra, does not have those luxuries. Many of her specials while strong and possibly overturned to leave her wide open when whiffed or blocked, offline anyway

Patience and effective sheild usage are going to be big factors when facing against Mythra. It's not a Smash 4 Sheik situation where everything she is is going does 99% safe and you can't do much about it. Your turn will eventually be come and you will have the capitalize on it
 
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The_Bookworm

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I still don't know what "matched the vulnerability with other fighters when falling in place" means lol.
For moves like Ryu's Focus Attack and Ridley's Skewer, some characters did not share the same vulnerability frames as other characters.
This patch simply fixed that for those characters. However, it was pretty minor in the first place, as no one noticed this inconsistency until it got fixed.

Yeah, but Sheik has most of Mythra's good traits and an actually useful projectile plus a great recovery, but is she frequently in the top 10 talks for Ultimate?
A lot of it has to do with the fact that Mythra is a sword character with Sheik-esque frame data and mobility.
Having the sizable disjointed range alongside Sheik-esque attributes is pretty big.
Plus Mythra has other very strong attributes, such as Foresight, some quick (+ high ranged) burst options like dash attack and Photon Edge, and higher weight.

Possessing a (practical) projectile is a notable advantage Sheik has in comparison to Mythra. Fortunately, Mythra also happens to be one of the fastest characters in the game, so she can naturally close the gap by sheer mobility.
Furthermore, if we decide to add Pyra to the mix, Mythra can just instantly turn into Pyra and utilize Blazing End, which in itself is an amazing projectile imo.

I am personally not sure if this is enough to make Mythra by herself top 10, but those are some of the reasons why players gravitate so much to her despite her similarities to other characters.
 
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Das Koopa

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Mythra is the first time I've been seriously concerned about a character's balance on-release. Hope I'm wrong lol but she doesn't seem okay at all.
 

StoicPhantom

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A lot of it has to do with the fact that Mythra is a sword character with Sheik-esque frame data and mobility.
Having the sizable disjointed range alongside Sheik-esque attributes is pretty big.
Plus Mythra has other very strong attributes, such as Foresight, some quick (+ high ranged) burst options like dash attack and Photon Edge, and higher weight.
I can see his point in that Sheik is a full-fledged character and still seems to be underperforming relative to the expectations put on her. In my admittedly limited experience with Mythra she seems to be tuned towards advantage in a way that makes her incidentally good in neutral but seems to be just ok to bad in everything else. She seems to struggle with pressuring shields and defensive play for example which I'm not sure is good for solo viability.

Like a lot of her currently lauded attributes seem to be targeted towards the opponent's disadvantage and not an actual neutral or pressure tool. A lot of her kill moves seem to rely on the opponent panicking and making a bad call. What happens if you just play it real safe and take the extra damage to ensure a safe landing? I mean her aerials aren't exactly scary in terms of power to try to avoid in the first place. What can she do to force me into those specific situations she needs to land her kill moves? Sheik's needles are scary in that situation because Sheik can kill confirm from them. But with Mythra the threat seems to be taking a small amount of damage that effectively becomes meaningless once you hit kill percent anyways.

If I'm playing a high reward character like Zelda then what stops me from biding my time until I can trade and/or win neutral? If I figure 30-40% on my first win and then an extra 20-30 with a second win or chip damage then that puts Mythra at kill percent (60-80). A whiff on Photon Edge usually puts her near the ledge where she will die at midpercents to a Lightning Kick. Her kill moves also aren't cheap in that regard and can result in a significant punish. So if I die with Zelda at 120 near ledge at the most ideal and Mythra dies at 60-80 on whiff then isn't that cutting it rather close with the risk/reward of solo Mythra? That's before getting into how difficult her recovery is and her lightweight can send her off stage early.

It seems to me that her advantage is what's solely being focused on without regard for anything else. Even if we figure a significant advantage against most of the cast I feel like you are playing with fire by trying to solo main her. All it really takes is a stray hit to end things. Yes, she shares advantages with Sheik and sword characters but that also means she shares the disadvantages, no?

What seems to be stopping Sheik is precisely turning things into a weight match. Having a good advantage is all well and good, but I don't think a light character with poor kill options is a good fit for the type of game Ultimate is. There's far too much that can go wrong and the strategy of playing perfectly that is usually trotted out in response to this doesn't seem to be realistic. I'm not saying Mythra isn't really strong, but I'm a little skeptical that she is solo viable and that Pyra isn't necessary in most cases.


I'm not necessarily saying that it is incorrect either, I'm just a little confused as to why my own experience and what I've seen in videos isn't quite matching up to the hype. I'm very open to the idea that combined they are top tier, but Mythra by herself seems rather bold.


I should also add that these characters are really good in lag. It seems to be a night and day difference between even a good connection and a small amount of lag.
 

blackghost

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This is what the hitbox data looks like for the spike portion of the move (w/ interpolation included); the spike portion lasts for two frames, half the duration of the move itself:

View attachment 306271
View attachment 306272

Uniquely enough, Pyra's spike starts as soon as the first hitbox comes out, which ends up giving the spike some ridiculously generous horizontal range, especially compared to other "arched" DAir spikes like Arsene Joker's or Marthcina's where the spike only begins directly below them.

I would imagine its not even that hard to land considering that Pyra's air movement is nowhere close to being bad.
she went to the melee marth school for spikes.

I'm already seeing some people try to be contrarian. its day 3 when i type this pyra is already having close matches with prominet characters as people are learning her mid-match. i watched someone figure out that pythra has footstool combo potential out of side b MIDMATCH. I can see plenty of mistakes in her play and unoptimized play so far (as to be expected) but shes already devastating large portions of the cast. She is not being overrated unless people are saying already she's top 1. There's so much potential growth i see with her. The end game with her is frequent switching to bait people and punishing. Mythra can punish a bad air dodge by shifting into death by pyra smash attack or aerial. These early foresight punishes are non-existent as well. This character is gonna soar
As we have seen with chrome and others a weaker recovery is not sufficent to hold a truly great character in ultimate

on a side note if you play Dragonball fighterz I'm so sorry ssj4 gogeta is a war crime on that game. Never seen the FGC immediately want a character gone. upon demonstration/trailer.
 
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Ziodyne 21

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I can see his point in that Sheik is a full-fledged character and still seems to be underperforming relative to the expectations put on her. In my admittedly limited experience with Mythra she seems to be tuned towards advantage in a way that makes her incidentally good in neutral but seems to be just ok to bad in everything else. She seems to struggle with pressuring shields and defensive play for example which I'm not sure is good for solo viability.

Like a lot of her currently lauded attributes seem to be targeted towards the opponent's disadvantage and not an actual neutral or pressure tool. A lot of her kill moves seem to rely on the opponent panicking and making a bad call. What happens if you just play it real safe and take the extra damage to ensure a safe landing? I mean her aerials aren't exactly scary in terms of power to try to avoid in the first place. What can she do to force me into those specific situations she needs to land her kill moves? Sheik's needles are scary in that situation because Sheik can kill confirm from them. But with Mythra the threat seems to be taking a small amount of damage that effectively becomes meaningless once you hit kill percent anyways.

If I'm playing a high reward character like Zelda then what stops me from biding my time until I can trade and/or win neutral? If I figure 30-40% on my first win and then an extra 20-30 with a second win or chip damage then that puts Mythra at kill percent (60-80). A whiff on Photon Edge usually puts her near the ledge where she will die at midpercents to a Lightning Kick. Her kill moves also aren't cheap in that regard and can result in a significant punish. So if I die with Zelda at 120 near ledge at the most ideal and Mythra dies at 60-80 on whiff then isn't that cutting it rather close with the risk/reward of solo Mythra? That's before getting into how difficult her recovery is and her lightweight can send her off stage early.

It seems to me that her advantage is what's solely being focused on without regard for anything else. Even if we figure a significant advantage against most of the cast I feel like you are playing with fire by trying to solo main her. All it really takes is a stray hit to end things. Yes, she shares advantages with Sheik and sword characters but that also means she shares the disadvantages, no?

What seems to be stopping Sheik is precisely turning things into a weight match. Having a good advantage is all well and good, but I don't think a light character with poor kill options is a good fit for the type of game Ultimate is. There's far too much that can go wrong and the strategy of playing perfectly that is usually trotted out in response to this doesn't seem to be realistic. I'm not saying Mythra isn't really strong, but I'm a little skeptical that she is solo viable and that Pyra isn't necessary in most cases.


I'm not necessarily saying that it is incorrect either, I'm just a little confused as to why my own experience and what I've seen in videos isn't quite matching up to the hype. I'm very open to the idea that combined they are top tier, but Mythra by herself seems rather bold.


I should also add that these characters are really good in lag. It seems to be a night and day difference between even a good connection and a small amount of lag.

I will admit that Pyra/Mythra are likely are boosted by online lag, and the fact that right now online play that may PARTILLAY why they seem so dominant and overpowering.

I mean let's say that a person has only every played Ultimate versus any human players Online and have never even seen a high-level tournament. Online play is the only competive from of this game they know. What would their views be on who are the best characters in the game? To cut to the chase they would likey think that Sonic is completely OP and near broken this game, when in that is not the case actually environment without lag .

So I am not saying the pair will not be strong, but it's likey their strengths are boosted online. Many people say that once we can see high level competive play offline Sepiroth will end up being a powerful and dominant threat since his because his strong edgeaurding potential can be fully ultized .

Well since their recoveries and offstage vulernabilty seem to be Pyra/Mythra's "main weakness" MAYBE players can develop stronger counterplay against and MAYBE they will not seem so overwhelming
 
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Kokiden

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For moves like Ryu's Focus Attack and Ridley's Skewer, some characters did not share the same vulnerability frames as other characters.
This patch simply fixed that for those characters. However, it was pretty minor in the first place, as no one noticed this inconsistency until it got fixed.
Crumple durations were standardized.
Thanks.

Honestly, I wish they could've worded it a lot better.
 

SKX31

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This phrase applies to the majority of things in the patch notes tbh
It's not limited to Nintendo - Bamco do not name specific variable changes in DBFZ patch notes. Still, Nintendo not only uses terms no one else uses, but also uses them very rarely (such as in patch notes):

  • Rapid Jabs are called "Flurry Attacks" by them: it's only used in the tips section, patch notes and the occassional Sakurai Presents when the character has a rapid jab. It illustrates the problem that they communicate so rarely.
  • Teching = "Breaking your Fall", only in the tips section.
  • DI = "Hitstun Shuffling" only rarely like in the tips section.
  • Nintendo never uses the exact value changes - such as the 1v1 damage modifier being termed as "damage increases slightly".

I get the impression they don't want to overwhelm casuals with terms and exact numbers - that or Nintendo / Bamco don't see the need for disclosing the exact numbers. But it would not hurt if in addition to the stuff they already say they would specify the exact values for those interested in it etc. A small spoiler-esque button in the patch notes site would suffice.
 
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The_Bookworm

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Err, so apparently you can cancel Mythra's dodge roll with a grab.

This is likely an oversight when coding in Mytha's Foresight. Hopefully that gets fixed soon.

Speaking of oversights: https://smashboards.com/threads/smash-ultimates-weird-new-projectile-glitch.512564/
Apparently there is a new glitch, where sometimes, projectiles will simply faze through the head hurtboxes of characters when moving forward.
Another thing that is likely going to get patched soon.
 

PK Gaming

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I definitely don't think using Pyra strictly as a killbot is the way to go

I've seen (and have experienced this myself) a lot of instances where you lose the lead because you switched to Pyra fishing for the kill and got steamrolled due to Pyra's awful mobility and lacking stage presence.

No, the best way to use Pyra (and it's something people like Mkleo have started doing) is to switch to her when you have the advantage, regardless of the opponents %, because her single hits are extremely damaging. I've gotten a lot of KOs from simple Bairs, Ftilts and even Fsmashes that way. And of course, Pyra has Side B as an all purpose spacing tool.

Overall, the character is extremely promising as a duo fighter. We're not even seeing a fraction of her potential due to online play. But I suspect she won't really dominate tournaments until we have a break out player using her (and not as a secondary).

And good God that recovery is so exploitable. It's rare to see a character struggle to recover both horizontally and vertically
 
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Emblem Lord

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A roll cancel into a grab with Mythra.

Now I am curious if she can just do this after a blocked aerial or tilt to cover sit in shield or any potential punish from an opponent. An attempt to punish could trigger Foresight and give Mythra free damage. And if Foresight eats the grab cancel well....

Mythra would not be ok. Not at all.
 

The_Bookworm

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Introducing Aegis Swap. It gives Pyra and Mythra a frame 9 OOS option.
That is cool, but I don't really get the applications.
The only real application I can see is simply switching to the other Aegis girl OoS, but you aren't really punishing the opponents on shield, and the opponent can easily react to the 32 total frames the move the has.
In my eyes, you would rather punish the opponent hitting your shield by actually hitting the opponent.

If there are applications that I am not seeing, please elaborate for me?
 

Minix0

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I can see his point in that Sheik is a full-fledged character and still seems to be underperforming relative to the expectations put on her. In my admittedly limited experience with Mythra she seems to be tuned towards advantage in a way that makes her incidentally good in neutral but seems to be just ok to bad in everything else. She seems to struggle with pressuring shields and defensive play for example which I'm not sure is good for solo viability.

Like a lot of her currently lauded attributes seem to be targeted towards the opponent's disadvantage and not an actual neutral or pressure tool. A lot of her kill moves seem to rely on the opponent panicking and making a bad call. What happens if you just play it real safe and take the extra damage to ensure a safe landing? I mean her aerials aren't exactly scary in terms of power to try to avoid in the first place. What can she do to force me into those specific situations she needs to land her kill moves? Sheik's needles are scary in that situation because Sheik can kill confirm from them. But with Mythra the threat seems to be taking a small amount of damage that effectively becomes meaningless once you hit kill percent anyways.

If I'm playing a high reward character like Zelda then what stops me from biding my time until I can trade and/or win neutral? If I figure 30-40% on my first win and then an extra 20-30 with a second win or chip damage then that puts Mythra at kill percent (60-80). A whiff on Photon Edge usually puts her near the ledge where she will die at midpercents to a Lightning Kick. Her kill moves also aren't cheap in that regard and can result in a significant punish. So if I die with Zelda at 120 near ledge at the most ideal and Mythra dies at 60-80 on whiff then isn't that cutting it rather close with the risk/reward of solo Mythra? That's before getting into how difficult her recovery is and her lightweight can send her off stage early.

It seems to me that her advantage is what's solely being focused on without regard for anything else. Even if we figure a significant advantage against most of the cast I feel like you are playing with fire by trying to solo main her. All it really takes is a stray hit to end things. Yes, she shares advantages with Sheik and sword characters but that also means she shares the disadvantages, no?

What seems to be stopping Sheik is precisely turning things into a weight match. Having a good advantage is all well and good, but I don't think a light character with poor kill options is a good fit for the type of game Ultimate is. There's far too much that can go wrong and the strategy of playing perfectly that is usually trotted out in response to this doesn't seem to be realistic. I'm not saying Mythra isn't really strong, but I'm a little skeptical that she is solo viable and that Pyra isn't necessary in most cases.


I'm not necessarily saying that it is incorrect either, I'm just a little confused as to why my own experience and what I've seen in videos isn't quite matching up to the hype. I'm very open to the idea that combined they are top tier, but Mythra by herself seems rather bold.


I should also add that these characters are really good in lag. It seems to be a night and day difference between even a good connection and a small amount of lag.
Good post. And yeah, if we're talking about advantage alone then characters like my main become really good all of the sudden. Its disadvantage that makes a character too, and my character is a punching bag lol.
 

Frihetsanka

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So, can we make a comparison between Sheik/Zelda from Melee/Brawl and Pyra/Mythra?
It has already been done. Ultimately swap being really, really fast is a game changer. If it were as slow as Sheik/Zelda in Brawl/Melee then this character would be much worse and would probably stick in Mythra mode all of the time (or almost all of the time). Though I suppose some people think solo Mythra is still top tier so maybe it'd be less of an issue than people think. Still, the characters are very different since swap is fast and Zelda/Sheik transform was not.
 

Thinkaman

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Looking at the knockback values, it's such a stark picture.

I once pointed out in that in Smash 4, Mewtwo's fair has more (total) knockback growth (1300) than Diddy and Sheik's entire moveset at the time, which I think is true to this day.

Mythra blows way past Sheik's extreme status. The typical Mythra move has roughly 400 total KBG. F-smash is her strongest kill move at 877.5, which is considerabbly less than Sheik bair and almost the same as Pyra f-tilt. She does have competitive, even great, base knockback than can sometimes cover for this (at the ledge Mythra f-smash can seem about as strong as the typical f-smash), but on the whole killing with Mythra before nearly 200% requires one of her tricks to make it mechanically possible.

Pyra is actually not the polar opposite, but the same philosophy applied to a heavy's moveset: She enjoys very high base knockback, with damage and growth that is respectable but frankly below that of someone like Ike or Ganondorf in most cases. She can f-smash someone near the ledge almsot as early as DDD, but I think you'd find that Ganon and friends can clean up from across stage with much more of their moveset.

Which is the mechanical underpinning that explains this:

I definitely don't think using Pyra strictly as a killbot is the way to go

I've seen (and experienced this myself) a lot of instances where you lose the lead because you switched to Pyra fishing for the kill and got steamrolled due to Pyra's awful mobility and lacking stage presence.

No, the best way to use Pyra (and it's something people like Mkleo have started doing) is to switch to her when you have the advantage, regardless of the opponents %, because her single hits are extremely damaging. I've gotten a lot of KOs from simple Bairs, Ftilts and even Fsmashes that way. And of course, Pyra has Side B as an all purpose spacing tool
Pyra's offense is most potent in an already advantageous position--I mean beyond what is obviously true for everyone. Pyra can routinely kill people at 70% with a wide variety of moves in attainable situations, but when I would stupidly switch to Pyra in the neutral just because my opponent was at 115%, I'd find myself struggling to get a single hit and then them surviving when I finally do!

But when I started switching to Pyra every time the wind blew my way, I started getting lots of free damage from Blazing End and lots of aerials catching air dodges. And being Pyra in the neutral is not the worst thing; it throws people off, which is always worth something. (Like NairWizard NairWizard said, if you could switch to Ganondorf, anyone would use that option sometimes.)


In terms of bugs, I'm not too worried. Stuff will get fixed. We've got the old PT/Joker team meter bug re-emerge with Mythra Swap, so that will get fixed. Weird hitbox stuff, busted roll-cancel grabs, whatever, seems very likely to get patched out. The only one that I could see going either way is the WFT landing lag removal "bug"; I do think it was very likely an unintended effect of addressing the Header disabled bug, but contrary to Twitter I'm not sure the situation is alarming enough to grab dev attention.
 

blackghost

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So, can we make a comparison between Sheik/Zelda from Melee/Brawl and Pyra/Mythra?
i dont think so. this change mechanic has been done before but the change has never been this useful or this quick. This is the only character (yes including trainer in ultimate) where the mechanics of the switch is useful. Switching with these two is itself a mind game.
pyrtha and mythra also play off each other very well. shiek and zelda dont. trainer its debatable how well the three play off each other.
 

Thinkaman

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Reddit did monthly community tier lists until the pandemic, at which point the data would be (even more) suspect anyway. But I was curious how community attitudes on the FP1 DLC that released shifted in the months following release. (Plant is an awkward comparison, since it was a much lower-profile early release and saw buffs over time.)

I am also including, in brackets at the end, Reddit's community rating from the end of 2020, which was the result of a different project with a different metholodgy.

:ultjoker:
----------
17th
8th
3rd
1st
1st
2nd (to Peach)
2nd (to Peach)
1st
1st
1st
2nd (to Peach, reaction to Jan 2020 nerfs)
[2nd] (to a random character with average usage and results)

:ulthero:
----------
22nd
32nd
33rd
33rd
36th
38th
44th
47th
[51st]

:ultbanjokazooie:
----------
38th
32nd
32nd
34th
40th
46th
46th
[53rd]

:ult_terry:
----------
24th
25th
28th
30th
[28th]

:ultbylethf:
----------
52nd
50th
[56th]


Limited FP2 context for end of year comparison:
:ultminmin [29th]
:ultsteve: [50th]

Broadly speaking, opinions of DLC characters have gone down over time. Joker is the one exception--I was shocked to see that opinions on Min Min had actually gone down, as well as surprised that opinions on Steve fell so quickly into the bottom half. (I expected a slower decent, like what Hero or Banjo experienced.)

Also, this is Month 1 data, not Week 1, which is different. Week 1 Joker was seen as a lackluster mid-tier by a lot of people--roll this thread back to page ~160 if you want local examples. Week 1 Terry was seen as even more impressive than his first month's poll numbers would later settle, as was Min Min. (And Steve was much more polarizing but you can lump him in there too.)

Mythra will be interesting to track in this way, given the extreme degree of sentiment surrounding her. Personally I think she looks very solid, but I was more optimistic/worried about week 1 Min Min actually. (Min Min broke a bunch of fundamental "rules" and felt like more of a long-term wild card, whereas Mythra's cards are more or less all on the table. I was very unsurprised at Min Min getting included alongside the predictable 4 getting nerfed, after her continued Japanese performances.)
 

meleebrawler

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Looking at the knockback values, it's such a stark picture.

I once pointed out in that in Smash 4, Mewtwo's fair has more (total) knockback growth (1300) than Diddy and Sheik's entire moveset at the time, which I think is true to this day.

Mythra blows way past Sheik's extreme status. The typical Mythra move has roughly 400 total KBG. F-smash is her strongest kill move at 877.5, which is considerabbly less than Sheik bair and almost the same as Pyra f-tilt. She does have competitive, even great, base knockback than can sometimes cover for this (at the ledge Mythra f-smash can seem about as strong as the typical f-smash), but on the whole killing with Mythra before nearly 200% requires one of her tricks to make it mechanically possible.

Pyra is actually not the polar opposite, but the same philosophy applied to a heavy's moveset: She enjoys very high base knockback, with damage and growth that is respectable but frankly below that of someone like Ike or Ganondorf in most cases. She can f-smash someone near the ledge almsot as early as DDD, but I think you'd find that Ganon and friends can clean up from across stage with much more of their moveset.

Which is the mechanical underpinning that explains this:



Pyra's offense is most potent in an already advantageous position--I mean beyond what is obviously true for everyone. Pyra can routinely kill people at 70% with a wide variety of moves in attainable situations, but when I would stupidly switch to Pyra in the neutral just because my opponent was at 115%, I'd find myself struggling to get a single hit and then them surviving when I finally do!

But when I started switching to Pyra every time the wind blew my way, I started getting lots of free damage from Blazing End and lots of aerials catching air dodges. And being Pyra in the neutral is not the worst thing; it throws people off, which is always worth something. (Like NairWizard NairWizard said, if you could switch to Ganondorf, anyone would use that option sometimes.)


In terms of bugs, I'm not too worried. Stuff will get fixed. We've got the old PT/Joker team meter bug re-emerge with Mythra Swap, so that will get fixed. Weird hitbox stuff, busted roll-cancel grabs, whatever, seems very likely to get patched out. The only one that I could see going either way is the WFT landing lag removal "bug"; I do think it was very likely an unintended effect of addressing the Header disabled bug, but contrary to Twitter I'm not sure the situation is alarming enough to grab dev attention.
Are you sure Mythra's strongest KO move isn't actually a fully charged Lightning Buster, or are we just assuming it won't land ever?
 

Frihetsanka

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I was shocked to see that opinions on Min Min had actually gone down, as well as surprised that opinions on Steve fell so quickly into the bottom half.
DLC on the recently released Reddit list: Joker 1, Min Min 19, Sephiroth 25, Terry 26, Steve 42, Hero 47, Byleth 52, Banjo 54, Piranha Plant 68.

My predictions: Joker will remain near the top, Min Min depends on how people react to her nerfs (though she was on her way up), Sephiroth will move up as more people discover what Tweek and other Sephiroth players are doing, Terry I don't really know (I expect some slight drop maybe since other characters might move up), Steve might move up a bit since he's doing well online, Byleth might move up a bit since she got buffed but MkLeo might drop her, Banjo and Piranha Plant are unlikely to do much better. Pyra/Mythra will probably do well on the next Reddit tier list.

Are you sure Mythra's strongest KO move isn't actually a fully charged Lightning Buster, or are we just assuming it won't land ever?
I was thinking the same thing, especially since it seems to potentially combo from up-tilt. Maybe he thought it was unfair to compare uncharged smashes to charged neutral-B? Going off-stage with neutral-B might have some potential too. She can also gimp with up-B.
 

RonNewcomb

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In terms of bugs, I'm not too worried. Stuff will get fixed. We've got the old PT/Joker team meter bug re-emerge with Mythra Swap, so that will get fixed. Weird hitbox stuff, busted roll-cancel grabs, whatever, seems very likely to get patched out. The only one that I could see going either way is the WFT landing lag removal "bug"; I do think it was very likely an unintended effect of addressing the Header disabled bug, but contrary to Twitter I'm not sure the situation is alarming enough to grab dev attention
Seph's OWA glitch wasn't fixed, and is getting worse. https://www.eventhubs.com/news/2021/mar/07/wing-sephiroth-pyra-swap-ssbu/
 

blackghost

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Messages
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Are you sure Mythra's strongest KO move isn't actually a fully charged Lightning Buster, or are we just assuming it won't land ever?
"wont ever land it?
are you Abolsutely certain? by by the hour this character continues to improve. this doesnt look easy, but it exists and thats how all this tech always starts out.
 
Last edited:

The_Bookworm

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2,792
This can be a potentially potent strategy, although I am very mixed on Sephiroth as a doubles character.

Since I am on the topic of :ultsephiroth:, there is something I like to mention. There is another shadow change that I forgot to mention earlier.
Blade Dash apparently got its launch angle adjusted (73° -> 107°), but the knockback now launches opponents toward Sephiroth's front instead of his back.
This is a fairly irrelevant change, but I find this rather odd still.

I also checked, and the glitch involving Shadow Flare + Pokemon Trainer shutting down all the visual effects of the game has indeed been fixed.

We've got the old PT/Joker team meter bug re-emerge with Mythra Swap, so that will get fixed.
Yeah about that....


Turns out that the bug only re-emerged with handicap turned on to 100%.
So the old Joker bug is thankfully not coming back to competitive doubles. It now only lives with Sephiroth.


Since I am on the subject on statistics posted on Twitter, here is the full frame difference on Foresight vs Bat Within.


From Meshima: "3. Mythra CAN land on ground after activated Foresight with her airdodges, while Bayo can't. This means Mythra's airdodge can be interrupted immediately from landing. Summary: Foresight spotdodge, forward roll, backward roll is 23, 28, 22 frames better than BW, respectively."


"wont ever land it?
are you Abolsutely certain? by by the hour this character continues to improve. this doesnt look easy, but it exists and thats how all this tech always starts out.
That looks like a decently potent setup, but I don't know how practical it is. It seems hard to link the charging hitbox to the actual move, that is not only true but also accounts for the opponent's DI.
Regardless, this is something to be aware of, and can potentially take the opponent's stock off in an instant.

Since we are in the subject of Lightning Buster, according to Kurogane Hammer, the fully-charged and aerial versions of Lightning Buster apparently uses set weight knockback. It treats every character in the game as if they have a weight value of 100. So Bowser and Puff gets KO'ed at approximately the same percent.
 
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